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Thread: DPS Minstrels

  1. #51
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by bastiat1 View Post
    I dont think the OP is a Trool, it's just that he's level 34. He hasnt experienced 2/3 of the game's content yet, and basically none of the challenging content. At those levels the DPS differences arent big enough to notice, so you cant really have an appreciation for how significantly the game changes as you get into end-game raiding, which is basically the position that the PM and MA guys are coming from.

    In all honesty, if the OP really wants to do damage he should make another character now. He's going to get really frustrated in end-game. So much so that he'll probably quit and play something else. I'm not being harsh, I'm just trying to give you honest advice- Mins is not the way to go to dps. The game isnt designed so that all classes can do all things equally, and Mins are about as low on the damage list as it gets. Make a Champ! Nothing wrong with a Champ.
    Or an Rune Keeper, they are more similar to the Minstrel in that they can heal, not at the same time as the DPS, but in the end. And given the amount of time some people play, the OP could paly with his RK as DPS, then slowly slip into the healing when and as he feels more comfortable.

  2. #52
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    The DPS role is ambiguous enough that any class can claim to fill the role. Unlike healing, buffing, CC, etc. every class needs some form of damage skill to be able to function solo. But just because Minstrels have the skills to do a little damage does not make them capable of filling the DPS role. The WS skills have too long cooldowns and too much dependence on crits (without a way to raise their crit over the cap). While a group can finish an instance with a DPS Minstrel, the other 5 players are essentially carrying the Minstrel through the instance. The same instance could almost certainly be 5-manned with ease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pfeifenkraut View Post
    But here's the point: YOU'RE TELLING OTHERS HOW TO PLAY, and that there is only one way they should play! That everyone else should stop them from playing as they choose, in the way their classes were built! It's ridiculous and offensive! Mighty offensive. Runekeepers are made to be able to heal OR dps, Minstrels are made to be able to dps OR heal.
    Actually, Turbine is telling others how to play. The developers designed each class to perform specific roles. Attempting to play outside of the roles listed will always lead to bad results. Minstrels who DPS are essentially putting their personal preferences over the good of the group by using a weak, ineffective playstyle that is not and never has been the developers' idea of how the class should be played. Why anyone would invite such a player into a group (and deliberately handicap the entire group due to one member's misguided ideals) is beyond me. It would be like inviting a Burglar to a group that refused to put Reveal Weakness on the boss simply because he didn't feel like debuffing.

    You are correct in saying that you have the right to play any way you want. You have the right to run around in level 5 gear using Stoop for Stone as your only skill too. That is, until you join a group that I'm leading, then I have the right to tell how you should play for the good of the group, and if you aren't willing to support the group by playing in the way that would benefit it the most, then you have no right to be there.



    The comparison of Minstrels being able to both DPS and heal just because Runekeepers can is ridiculous. The design for both classes is completely different. While Runekeepers have the tools to put out first rate DPS, the best geared Minstrel will never be able to do more DPS than a (very) poorly geared player of one of the main DPS classes. A more accurate comparison would be that Minstrels can DPS in the same way that Lore-masters (with just Beacon of Hope on a 20s cooldown) can heal groups: too few relevant skills on too long a cooldown to make a significant difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by doug01
    With the changes coming in Update 2, a fully geared mini will bring SOOOO much to the table that its going to be hard not to actually prefer to have one in the group healing or not.
    This is true. However, the reason why Minstrels would be invited to groups that already had a healer would be for the buffs, not the DPS. If the group already has a Minstrel, there would be no reason to bring a second since the buffs don't stack. If the group has a RK, there's no reason why a competent group leader would allow the Minstrel to DPS while the RK heals when the reverse would be so much more effective.
    Last edited by jeedai; Mar 02 2011 at 01:43 AM.

  3. #53

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by jeedai View Post
    The DPS role is ambiguous enough that any class can claim to fill the role. But just because Minstrels have the skills to do a little damage does not make them capable of filling the DPS role. the other 5 players are essentially carrying the Minstrel through the instance. The same instance could almost certainly be 5-manned with ease. The only reason a Minstrel should ever consider DPSing is if a PuG is advertising, "5/6 for <instance>, just need one more, don't care what." The developers designed each class to perform specific roles. Attempting to play outside of the roles listed will always lead to bad results. Minstrels who DPS are essentially putting their personal preferences over the good of the group by using a weak, ineffective playstyle that is not and never has been the developers' idea of how the class should be played. Why anyone would invite such a player into a group (and deliberately handicap the entire group due to one member's misguided ideals) Until you join a group that I'm leading, then I have the right to tell how you should play for the good of the group, and if you aren't willing to support the group by playing in the way that would benefit it the most, then you have no right to be there.



    ^ok, you have perfectly summed up the exact mentality that has so many in this thread a little riled up. Last time i checked this is the minstrel forum and i for one cannot believe the advice from MINSTRELS to other minstrels that want to play slightly outside of the WOW cookie cutter heal-bot mode.

    "power costs are too high" and "because i said so" are the only real arguments here as to why a DPS mini cannot be effective.



    The comparison of Minstrels being able to both DPS and heal just because Runekeepers can is APPROPRIATE. The design for both classes is completely different. While BOLT have the tools to put out first rate DPS, the best geared Minstrel will be able to do more DPS. A more accurate comparison would be that Minstrels can DPS in the same way that CAPTAINS CAN (with group support, damage increase for the rest of the party, buffing/de-buffing, and even some really nice back up healing) THEY BOTH HAVE MANY SKILLS THAT MAKE A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE TO THE ENTIRE GROUP WHEN PLAYED WELL.

    ^fixed





    This is true. However, the reason why Minstrels would be invited to groups that already had a healer would be for the buffs, not the DPS. If the group already has a Minstrel, there would be no reason to bring a second since the buffs don't stack. If the group has a RK, there's no reason why a competent group leader would allow the Minstrel to DPS while the RK heals when the reverse would be so much more effective.
    the heals sure as hell stack,
    chaining anthem of the free peoples and valar means a permanent ICMR boost.
    Ballad of war is not to be underestimated




    GROUP LEADER; ok were all set to go who is healing?

    RK#1; I am built for healing i can do it

    MINI#1; ok sweet, i am traited reds and would prefeer to stay in WS. i can hop out on boss fights and heal if needed.

    GROUP LEADER; RAGE!!1! OMG LEARN TO PLAY!! RK you are DPS now, MINI you have to heal because its the only way the devs envisioned a group to run

    RK#1; ...........

    MINI#1; .........

    GROUP LEADER; your playstlye is ineffective and You will play the way i tell you to play so the rest of the group can have fun. Healers dont have feelings, if you don't like it reroll a real dps class. ect, ect, ect....

  4. #54
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by red_five View Post
    "power costs are too high" and "because i said so" are the only real arguments here as to why a DPS mini cannot be effective.
    Wrong. Even if the power costs were perfectly sustainable, Minstrels suffer from being incredibly crit-reliant without having the crit chance to back it up which makes them weak DPS even while they do have power. Parse it if you don't believe me. A Minstrel's personal DPS will never come anywhere near a decent player on a DPS class over a decent period of time.

    The comparison of Minstrels being able to both DPS and heal just because Runekeepers can is APPROPRIATE. The design for both classes is completely different. While BOLT have the tools to put out first rate DPS, the best geared Minstrel will be able to do more DPS. A more accurate comparison would be that Minstrels can DPS in the same way that CAPTAINS CAN (with group support, damage increase for the rest of the party, buffing/de-buffing, and even some really nice back up healing) THEY BOTH HAVE MANY SKILLS THAT MAKE A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE TO THE ENTIRE GROUP WHEN PLAYED WELL.
    If you're implying that a Minstrel will ever come near a RK's DPS... you're wrong. RKs crit 10% more often than Minstrels, and they crit harder with more DPS skills. There's no comparison. A RK will win by far in a DPS race lasting longer than 10-20 seconds.

    the heals sure as hell stack,
    chaining anthem of the free peoples and valar means a permanent ICMR boost.
    Ballad of war is not to be underestimated
    A single main healer is enough for any 3-6 man in the game. That Minstrel/RK heals stack is completely irrelevant for normal grouping.

    Anthem of the Valar is irrelevant as it is not a group buff. Anthem of the Free Peoples can only be chained for 90 seconds out of the 120 second cooldown (with 2 Minstrels... even you can't claim that there's a reason to bring 3 Minstrels). Even if it were perfectly sustainable, the ICMR from the Anthem only heals 78 per 3 seconds (~Soliloquy of Spirit), a very minor heal by any measurement.

    Ballad of War is easily the best group damage buff in the game... and also completely sustainable by a single healing Minstrel.
    Last edited by jeedai; Mar 01 2011 at 06:27 PM.

  5. #55

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    1 i said before i find the drop in the mini's dps more than justified when you way in what the mini brings with group support. please look at the big picture outside of straight numbers races. A dps mini brings alot more to the table than just damage.

    2 the point that got lost there was that any character can increase their personal dps with better gear. RK may have better numbers, but mini can be made very viable outside of a main healer role. Even more so after the next update.

    3 yes, ballad of war is awesome


    and in closing,
    play the way you want to play. DPS mini's can be fun as hell. If healing is your thing, then go to it. Change up your traits and try new things. There are alot of tricks in a mini's arsenal, don't be afraid to use what works for you.

    just make sure the group knows ahead of time you intend to play as a dps, or the drama will be nasty

  6. #56
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    The only actual arguement being brought up against taking a DPS Mini in a group is effiency for everyone else in the group. Effiency and PUG are not normally spoken in the same breath. If someone is only concerned about other peoples view of them, effiency and blasting through the instance, most likely want to find yourself a kin to run with.

    People normally PUGing instances are solo'ers or underleveled alts in an end-game kin. These types of groups are not known for their efficiency. You have to try and have fun in these cases with the people you're running with. If you find yourself in a group you're not leading with a DPS Mini, you have two choices 1) Go with the group 2) Drop the group. I don't see what the big issue is there. That way both players get to enjoy their playing time.

    Fun > Parsing Data

    I have WS'ed in SG many times with a cappy solo healing it and other times with an RK healing it. I have WS'ed on level in GS with 3 mini's 3 guards and all involved had a blast.

    Just because something is not ideal doesn't mean it isn't fun.
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  7. #57
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by red_five View Post
    1 i said before i find the drop in the mini's dps more than justified when you way in what the mini brings with group support. please look at the big picture outside of straight numbers races. A dps mini brings alot more to the table than just damage.

    ...RK may have better numbers, but mini can be made very viable outside of a main healer role. Even more so after the next update.
    Sure, a Minstrel brings several useful skills to a group. That's not the point. The question is: What utility does a DPS minstrel bring to a group that the same Minstrel couldn't provide while healing? If you get the same buffs while healing, and the group would benefit more from you healing, then you should heal. Period.

    Answer these questions:
    If you already have a Minstrel in a group, you already have every buff a DPS Minstrel could bring. Why then would you want a DPS Minstrel?
    If you already have a RK, and you invite a Minstrel, the Minstrel healing will keep all of its buffs/utility after switching to heals, and the group will have a large net gain in DPS. Why then would you want the RK to heal?

    2 the point that got lost there was that any character can increase their personal dps with better gear.
    The point you're ignoring is that not matter how good your gear is, you won't come close to matching a DPS class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterfell View Post
    Effiency and PUG are not normally spoken in the same breath. If someone is only concerned about other peoples view of them, effiency and blasting through the instance, most likely want to find yourself a kin to run with.
    Even the worst of PuGs (in my experience) would like to think that they have an adequate group makeup, usually consisting of a tank, a healer, maybe a Captain/LM, and a smattering of DPS. There's no reason why the average PuG leader would invite a DPS Mini when standard DPS classes are so abundant, unless they have 5/6 and are just looking to fill the slot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterfell View Post
    Just because something is not ideal doesn't mean it isn't fun.
    I once killed the cook in Fil Gashan with a group of friends all wielding frying pans and slapper fish, and it was easily some of the most fun I've had in the game to date. Running instances while wielding a fish makes them more enjoyable (seriously, try it!). That doesn't mean that I'm going to run every instance that way or that I would expect a leader to invite me if I indicated that I was going /fishslap the bosses instead of healing.

    Just because something is fun doesn't mean it should be done regularly.
    Last edited by jeedai; Mar 02 2011 at 01:43 AM.

  8. #58

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by jeedai View Post
    My last post in the thread (barring some change in topic).



    Sure, a Minstrel brings several useful skills to a group. That's not the point. The question is: What utility does a DPS minstrel bring to a group that the same Minstrel couldn't provide while healing? If you get the same buffs while healing, and the group would benefit more from you healing, then you should heal. Period.

    Answer these questions:
    If you already have a Minstrel in a group, you already have every buff a DPS Minstrel could bring. Why then would you want a DPS Minstrel?
    If you already have a RK, and you invite a Minstrel, the Minstrel healing will keep all of its buffs/utility after switching to heals, and the group will have a large net gain in DPS. Why then would you want the RK to heal?



    The point you're ignoring is that not matter how good your gear is, you won't come close to matching a DPS class.



    Even the worst of PuGs (in my experience) would like to think that they have an adequate group makeup, usually consisting of a tank, a healer, maybe a Captain/LM, and a smattering of DPS. There's no reason why the average PuG leader would invite a DPS Mini when standard DPS classes are so abundant, unless they have 5/6 and are just looking to fill the slot.



    I once killed the cook in Fil Gashan with a group of friends all wielding frying pans and slapper fish, and it was easily some of the most fun I've had in the game to date. Running instances while wielding a fish makes them more enjoyable (seriously, try it!). That doesn't mean that I'm going to run every instance that way or that I would expect a leader to invite me if I indicated that I was going /fishslap the bosses instead of healing.

    Just because something is fun doesn't mean it should be done.
    I think you've proved that you've never played as a minstrel and therefore don't really understand a good portion of what a minstrel can and can't do.

    A minstrel who is healing doesn't have anywhere near the time to throw out all the buffs a minstrel has access to. They are usually too busy healing to have the chance. Your statement that a healing minstrel can do everything is completely and utterly wrong.

    As others have pointed out, you're trying to force your own ideal of what a minstrel should be on everyone else. You don't seem to care one bit if your ideal minstrel is any fun to play or not as long as the minstrel is making it so you can have your fun. Get off your high horse and realize that everyone else isn't here to make sure you have your fun. Your perfect efficiency ideal may work, but it doesn't mean it's the only way and it definitely doesn't mean it's any fun.

    You've also mentioned that pure dps classes do a good bit more sustained damage than a minstrel and I won't argue that. However, how much more damage do they really do and how does that percentage work out with regards to the total damage done by the whole fellowship? I highly doubt the small fraction of lost total dps is going to be a breaking point for the group. A dps minstrel is not doing zero damage and is definitely not dead weight. A dps minstrel can buff and keep up buffs better than a single minstrel trying to heal and some of those buffs can be considerable. There's actually a buff which is channeled, works on all classes and allows gated/reactive skills by all classes to be used more often and without the event causing the reactive. I doubt very many healing minstrels can take the time off from healing to do that. I'd bet a dps minstrel could be able to do that, though.

    There was also mention of Anthem of the Free Peoples and it's ICMR buff. You completely and totally blew off that buff as useless. If memory serves, my level 59 minstrel adds around 1200 ICMR with that buff and it lasts 30-45 seconds depending on if it's traited or not. 1200 ICMR even for 30 seconds is definitely not something to blow off or ignore especially since it's a full fellowship buff. That's not on just one person but on everyone. Yes, a single minstrel can get that buff up; but what happens when you have two minstrels who can keep it up for twice as long?

    Next you have tales. I'd bet there probably aren't a whole lot of minstrels out there using the tale capstone for dual tales. With a dps minstrel in the group along with a healing minstrel, you can have those dual tales. Having two different tales going can be damn nice.

    Personally, I feel sorry for you. It seems you've gotten to the point where everything has to be perfectly efficient and you've lost all sense of fun for the game. Your whole post screams that efficiency is the only way things should be done even if it's no fun. Sure, efficiency has its place, but it doesn't mean it's the right thing if it's taking away from the fun people have in a video game. I think you should keep in mind that min-maxers and the mindset they have are a very small minority of the game. Just because they are very vocal doesn't mean their playstyle is correct.

  9. #59

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by DrnknElf View Post

    A minstrel who is healing doesn't have anywhere near the time to throw out all the buffs a minstrel has access to. They are usually too busy healing to have the chance. Your statement that a healing minstrel can do everything is completely and utterly wrong.
    Untrue....unless the **** is really hitting the fan, you should have plenty of time to keep up BoW, AotFP (when up) and the fear/fire buffs. I know when I am healing a group it's always up, except maybe on very specific fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrnknElf View Post

    Next you have tales. I'd bet there probably aren't a whole lot of minstrels out there using the tale capstone for dual tales. With a dps minstrel in the group along with a healing minstrel, you can have those dual tales. Having two different tales going can be damn nice.
    I know a lot of healing minstrels who keep up a tale or dual tales...I personally always run dual tales when in group content...I don't see why you would say that they never do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterfell View Post
    The only actual arguement being brought up against taking a DPS Mini in a group is effiency for everyone else in the group. Effiency and PUG are not normally spoken in the same breath.
    1st off, some people actually have fun healing. That being said, I also like to go in and dps through some instances, GB for instance if we have a captain who can solo heal it, or most of GS...most of the 3 mans, and have run a capt healed MNS dpsed SG run plenty of times...and other instances like that. My main is a minstrel, and I like to do damage, I have a lot of fun when I'm full WS traited and know exactly what my capabilities are. I also have 6 total characters and know how that DPS compares to them (especially how dependent on crits a minstrel is).

    But I do that with groups I know and who can manage it. Efficiency and PuGs may not go hand in hand, but most PuGs will not be able to maintain a fight with a Minstrel DPS, unless they are the rare good PuG.

    To say "the only argument being brought up is efficiency".....that's a pretty strong argument though. Your main argument is "its fun." Ok...so it's fun, go for it. But you can't really recommend it as a valid strategy above not DPSing. Does having a MNS dps and 2 healers in group have it's advantages? Sure it does, just like it has disadvantages. But overall, it's not better than simply a healer and dedicated dps class, and that's not being locked into one mindset, that's just knowing what's better.

    When it comes down to basic strategy and what is better for your group, the MNS should not be mainly DPSing. When it comes to you personally having more fun and enjoying your time in game, go ahead and DPS...if your group can handle it and everyone is OK with it, why not? But just don't get upset when you find a group that isn't OK with it...because most PuGs don't have a lot of time in game, and don't want to spend extra time in an instance because the most efficient healing class in the game decided they want to DPS.
    Last edited by Anardil; Mar 02 2011 at 01:24 AM.
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  10. #60
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by DrnknElf View Post
    I think you've proved that you've never played as a minstrel and therefore don't really understand a good portion of what a minstrel can and can't do.

    A minstrel who is healing doesn't have anywhere near the time to throw out all the buffs a minstrel has access to. They are usually too busy healing to have the chance. Your statement that a healing minstrel can do everything is completely and utterly wrong.
    I think you've proven that you've never played as a minstrel and therefore don't really understand what a minstrel can and can't do.

    Your statement that a healing minstrel cannot keep up all relevant buffs is completely and utterly wrong. A minstrel who is healing has plenty of time to toss out the three ballads per 30 seconds required to keep up Ballad of War. I have yet to encounter a situation in a 3-6 man (or most 12-mans) where I have been unable to sustain BoW (after learning the instance, of course).

    Try playing a Minstrel at max level with good gear/LIs before lecturing me on what a Minstrel can or cannot do.

    ...realize that everyone else isn't here to make sure you have your fun.
    I'm confused. Aren't you (the ones arguing for DPS Minstrels) using the sole justification that it's more fun for you, regardless of the benefit to the group or the group's enjoyment?

    There was also mention of Anthem of the Free Peoples and it's ICMR buff. You completely and totally blew off that buff as useless. If memory serves, my level 59 minstrel adds around 1200 ICMR with that buff and it lasts 30-45 seconds depending on if it's traited or not. 1200 ICMR even for 30 seconds is definitely not something to blow off or ignore especially since it's a full fellowship buff. That's not on just one person but on everyone. Yes, a single minstrel can get that buff up; but what happens when you have two minstrels who can keep it up for twice as long?
    At level 65, Anthem of the Free Peoples raises ICMR by 1545.4, if my memory serves. That's ~26 hps or 78 health per 3 seconds, per player, roughly the amount healed by Soliloquy of Spirit. Personally, I only consider one player for this type of buff since the tank should be the only one taking damage... but either way, that small a heal isn't going to save someone being hit by constant AoEs, nor will it even provide a decent cushion for random target spike damage. That's the type of heal you use when someone isn't taking damage, just so they can regen the points of damage they've already taken a little faster. It's not completely worthless, but it's definitely not significant either. Sustaining it for 30-45 seconds longer is not going to have an effect on the group.

    Next you have tales. I'd bet there probably aren't a whole lot of minstrels out there using the tale capstone for dual tales. With a dps minstrel in the group along with a healing minstrel, you can have those dual tales. Having two different tales going can be damn nice.
    I admit I didn't consider a second tale, mostly because you're wrong. Many minstrels use dual tales. Either way, a second tale isn't exactly what I'd call game-changing...

    Just because they are very vocal doesn't mean their playstyle is correct.
    You're right. The playstyle isn't correct just because it has vocal advocates. It's correct because all forms of empirical evidence (parses, experience, etc.) support it, all mathematical evidence supports it, and every authority on the subject (developers) agrees with it. Class design forces each class into a limited number of possible "correct" playstyles. Just because you try to play a different one doesn't make you correct. Quite the opposite, in fact.



    Incidentally, I'm not saying that Minstrels should never DPS so much as showing that there is no benefit in a Minstrel DPSing. I've done my share of DPSing (I usually DPS on easier pulls where heals are not required or when I'm confident that a Captain can handle the instance)... but at the same time, I recognize that bringing pretty much any other class to fill that same DPS slot will be a bigger help to the group than I am at the time.
    Last edited by jeedai; Mar 02 2011 at 01:48 AM.

  11. #61
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    Lightbulb Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by esdumby View Post
    You are hurting your groups efficiency if you get another healer. Way slower dps overall if a minstrel is dpsing compared to a dps class, and believe me I am a warspeech minstrel. If you want to group and do it efficiently and have people invite you to groups, you will need to heal. Its not hard, very easy actually.
    You are doing your ws mini wrong if you are not at least competitive against any other class. I would happily accept a ws mini into my group if I knew that they were competent. All my solo skirmish times on my mini are up there with my so called dps classes.
    Last edited by wasteland; Mar 02 2011 at 03:39 AM.
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  12. #62

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Healing most instances is like watching paint dry.

    I used to run with a kin and our normal group was Guard, Champ, Hunter, Captain, Captain, Minstrel. I ran WS all the time. We blew through instances like no ones business.

    In Warg-Pens I used to run Guard, RK, Mini. The RK had much better power while healing on the final boss Hard Mode and I downed the wargs myself.

    HoC is built for a DPS minstrel. When you start AoEing your DPS becomes much more efficient.

    Skumfil, AoE shines.

    Maze...AoE.

    I will not argue that the Raids are ideal for WS Minis simply because they are not.

    The ability to AoE through most content makes a WS Mini viable. That is why I build my own groups so I can play how I like.
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  13. #63

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbajman View Post

    In Warg-Pens I used to run Guard, RK, Mini. The RK had much better power while healing on the final boss Hard Mode and I downed the wargs myself.

    HoC is built for a DPS minstrel. When you start AoEing your DPS becomes much more efficient.

    ...

    The ability to AoE through most content makes a WS Mini viable
    Uh...what exactly were you AOEing on the final boss in Warg Pens?

    You can't seriously say that a MNS dpsing and an RK healing is better for that fight....I'm not gonna even get into why. If that's what lets you have fun, go for it, but it's definately not the "better", meaning more efficient, way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbajman View Post

    HoC is built for a DPS minstrel. When you start AoEing your DPS becomes much more efficient.

    Skumfil, AoE shines.

    Maze...AoE.

    You do realize that you have only 4 AE skills (1 of which is a legendary skill):

    - 1 on a 10s cooldown, 3 targets. Highly dependent on crits if you want to say it does high damage
    - 2 on a 30s cooldown (Assuming you're traited that way). 1 is likely 5 targets, or 6, if you are DPS geared, and another 3 targets. Again, highly dependent on crits
    - 1 on a 2m cooldown is it? If traited legendary of course. 3 targets, highly dependent on crits.


    Those are long-ish cooldowns when compared to a dps class such as a champ....and you do realize that RKs also have AEs..as do LMs.

    That's hardly "AE" efficient. For that first 10s where you fire off all 4, ok, high burst damage. Then you wait 10 seconds....fire 1 more off. Wait 10 seconds...fire off another...and in the meantime, you are using very low damage ballads, or maybe your piercing cry every 20 seconds...and the champ/hunters are out damaging you on auto attacks, RK/DPS LM forget about it.
    Last edited by Anardil; Mar 02 2011 at 09:07 AM.
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  14. #64
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by wasteland View Post
    You are doing your ws mini wrong if you are not at least competitive against any other class. I would happily accept a ws mini into my group if I knew that they were competent. All my solo skirmish times on my mini are up there with my so called dps classes.
    Minstrels are competitive for the first minute sure, their initial dps may seem like they can do the instance. Mobs that have 20k hp are not high enough for the minstrel to fall that much behind, although their long cooldowns will be coming into play and slowing their dps down. When you get to bosses, the minstrel dps is so much lower than other classes its not worth mentioning as a viable efficient option for any group to take over a dps class.

    Comparing skirmishes to instances doesnt work since in skirmishes the mobs are built towards soloing it by any class whereas in instances, the mobs have alot higher HP and on the bosses especially a minstrel comes no where near a champ or even support classes unless 2 things happen. A captain is getting alot of defeat responses giving the minstrel alot of power, also has the power banner down and the lm is giving the minstrel power all the time. That would solve the power issue; however, nothing solves the crit issue. 11.8% is currently the highest crit chance we can get alone, cappie buff and red line will get us to cap and get us to 6% dev but even then with 21% to crit something, our skills have long cooldowns which hold the minstrel damage back.
    Last edited by esdumby; Mar 02 2011 at 09:59 AM.

  15. #65

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by jeedai View Post
    I think you've proven that you've never played as a minstrel and therefore don't really understand what a minstrel can and can't do.

    Your statement that a healing minstrel cannot keep up all relevant buffs is completely and utterly wrong. A minstrel who is healing has plenty of time to toss out the three ballads per 30 seconds required to keep up Ballad of War. I have yet to encounter a situation in a 3-6 man (or most 12-mans) where I have been unable to sustain BoW (after learning the instance, of course).

    Try playing a Minstrel at max level with good gear/LIs before lecturing me on what a Minstrel can or cannot do.



    I'm confused. Aren't you (the ones arguing for DPS Minstrels) using the sole justification that it's more fun for you, regardless of the benefit to the group or the group's enjoyment?



    At level 65, Anthem of the Free Peoples raises ICMR by 1545.4, if my memory serves. That's ~26 hps or 78 health per 3 seconds, per player, roughly the amount healed by Soliloquy of Spirit. Personally, I only consider one player for this type of buff since the tank should be the only one taking damage... but either way, that small a heal isn't going to save someone being hit by constant AoEs, nor will it even provide a decent cushion for random target spike damage. That's the type of heal you use when someone isn't taking damage, just so they can regen the points of damage they've already taken a little faster. It's not completely worthless, but it's definitely not significant either. Sustaining it for 30-45 seconds longer is not going to have an effect on the group.

    I admit I didn't consider a second tale, mostly because you're wrong. Many minstrels use dual tales. Either way, a second tale isn't exactly what I'd call game-changing...



    You're right. The playstyle isn't correct just because it has vocal advocates. It's correct because all forms of empirical evidence (parses, experience, etc.) support it, all mathematical evidence supports it, and every authority on the subject (developers) agrees with it. Class design forces each class into a limited number of possible "correct" playstyles. Just because you try to play a different one doesn't make you correct. Quite the opposite, in fact.



    Incidentally, I'm not saying that Minstrels should never DPS so much as showing that there is no benefit in a Minstrel DPSing. I've done my share of DPSing (I usually DPS on easier pulls where heals are not required or when I'm confident that a Captain can handle the instance)... but at the same time, I recognize that bringing pretty much any other class to fill that same DPS slot will be a bigger help to the group than I am at the time.
    Again, you're arguing efficiency without the numbers to prove that it's actually a massive decrease. I already said that in the long run something like an RK is going to have higher dps. However, you haven't shown that the difference in dps between an RK and a minstrel is a breaking proposition. No matter what you say, the most efficient way isn't the only way.

    You've finally admitted that you've done dps as a minstrel and it worked out just fine. Do you realize that you've proved your own argument is flawed?

    Then you mention using dual tales. Well, that's not very efficient. Using the yellow line capstone means you're nowhere near being fully efficient for healing by having to ignore most of the blue line.

    You can keep trying to argue "fully efficient is the only way to go" and you can keep making yourself look like a fool for doing so if you want. However, many of us will realize how foolish your argument is and how it's only real virtue is for speed runs which most people don't really care about.

  16. #66
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by DrnknElf View Post
    Again, you're arguing efficiency without the numbers to prove that it's actually a massive decrease. I already said that in the long run something like an RK is going to have higher dps. However, you haven't shown that the difference in dps between an RK and a minstrel is a breaking proposition. No matter what you say, the most efficient way isn't the only way.

    You've finally admitted that you've done dps as a minstrel and it worked out just fine. Do you realize that you've proved your own argument is flawed?

    Then you mention using dual tales. Well, that's not very efficient. Using the yellow line capstone means you're nowhere near being fully efficient for healing by having to ignore most of the blue line.

    You can keep trying to argue "fully efficient is the only way to go" and you can keep making yourself look like a fool for doing so if you want. However, many of us will realize how foolish your argument is and how it's only real virtue is for speed runs which most people don't really care about.
    just a side note since you dont know, the blue line does not add heals whatsoever and has nothing to do with efficiency. The line has few good traits and the only ones i would consider using are focused performance and -10% power cost. The others are mediocre at best, i do however go 3 in that line for the 260 power but thats just fluff. Dual tales is much more efficient in our role as a healer than going 5 blue or even 3/4 since the armor/60will/fate tale will be reducing damage taken by 5% while giving everyone icmr/icpr.

    Speed runs are not the argument here. The argument is a minstrel does not have the capability nor the sustained ability to dps in 6 man instances. You can forget the comparison, if the minstrel is "conserving" power they are doing less dps than they should be doing. If the minstrel doesnt run out of power due to lms and captains, they will be relying on crits and long cooldowns furthering the fact they are not contributing to the group.

    If aoe is the "winner" for a minstrel, i would like you to meet the champion. In aoe situations where there are 4-5 mobs, a champion will parse 800+ dps over a consistent amount of time. They will sustain 800+dps until all the mobs are dead and thats without anyone else helping them with buffs such as BoW and to arms. (this is a normal champion, not the best geared) The minstrel may get a nice 400-500 if they crit most if not all their skills. The long cooldowns will hurt the dps and if they arnt critting it may even drop below 400.

    If this whole argument revolves around fun (it doesnt if we are speaking about the OP's situation) then we can all stop debating. Fun is different for everybody. If i wanted to have fun on my guardian could dps with my bow the whole instance, never getting agro and letting someone else tank (their primary role). Captains could just buff every 30 minutes and call that fun while auto following someone. Point is, each class is not fulfilling their role and not contributing to the group at their full potential. The minstrel class is specifically designed against dpsing in larger content than 3 mans. I dont know how many times it was stated in this thread but power, depending on crits, and long cooldowns are designed against dpsing in 6 mans. The minstrel class is designed to buff and heal at the same time. If a minstrel is not buffing/healing at the same time they are failing at their role.

    If you are having fun, knowing you are contributing little to nothing for the group compared to another person, then whatever dude. Thats on you. We have to compare to another person because obviously a minstrel dpsing is better than no one else dpsing but when you add dps class or support class to that spot, the minstrel will lose in the comparison unless they are healing/buffing (their role). While the most efficient way isnt the only way, as i said before you can get content done with 5 guardians using shields and butter knives. Why does no one do that? well maybe the first time it was a good laugh at how slow they went but after that, it becomes a nuisance at the time being wasted. The first time we take a minstrel dpsing, eh whatever; on a consistent basis? No way.

  17. #67

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Ya it is useless to argue. I can DPS on my mini.

    If you dont think you are competetive then min max some more.
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  18. #68
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbajman View Post
    Ya it is useless to argue. I can DPS on my mini.

    If you dont think you are competetive then min max some more.
    I don't think his point is that he can't do burst damage...since minstrels can do nice burst damage obviously (only really useful in the Moors or solo skirmishing/questing). Based on his posts, Rubies is actually a purely solo warspeech minstrel in the Moors btw...he knows what burst damage is and how to make it happen

    The point is, a minstrel is not a DPS class. That is, we have little sustained damage because our damage is completely gated by power, crits and long cooldowns. Our AoEs are great when they crit, but they're not usable every few seconds and they will suck our power dry very quickly...that's the whole point of bringing an actual damage class

    I think it's a lot of fun to be in Warspeech in 3/6 mans when the group make-up is right, because none of them really require that much healing and it's certainly easy enough to drop out of WS for bosses. I enjoy doing it too when the group make-up lends itself to that - particularly when I'm with kin. But don't kid yourself about what we can and cannot do over the course of a fight in an instance. The fact that our damage is as gated as it is, and the fact that we actually can't continue to do even that little bit of burst damage without others supporting us when they should be contributing elsewhere, should tell you what we're built best for in groups.

    Either way, if the minstrel is upfront about their playstyle, no one should be telling them how to play their class on their dime. But understanding the class is what's in question here IMO.
    Last edited by Gillianrial; Mar 02 2011 at 04:17 PM. Reason: gaited --> gated

  19. #69

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    every group needs a main tank and a main healer

    i think we could all agree on that.

    that leaves 4 spots for DPS, no?

    Tank, healer, 4 champions.....
    if i am understanding your argument this is the only group makeup that is or ever will be acceptable to put together

    "SORRY CAPTAINS, LOREMASTERS, WARDENS, DPS/MINI"S, OVERPOWER GUARDS, BURGLARS, RUNEKEEPERS there is no place for you in the game as you cant put up the exact most efficient numbers. Group support skill accounts for nothing, if you don't believe me the parse the dps meter."

    sorry but i'm still not buying it
    OUTSIDE OF THE MAIN TANK/MAIN HEALER ROLE I WOULD PUT DPS MINI RIGHT NEAR THE TOP OF THE LIST AS BEST GROUP SUPPORT
    Were right up there with what a good captain or a good lore master can bring, burglar even

    starting to feel like a broken record here....
    A DPS MINI BRINGS A LOT MORE TO THE TABLE THAN JUST DPS

    no one here has ever claimed that mini has the best in game dps, but to say they should never be included in any group content is a little harsh, if not completely narrow-minded and wrong. All the posters who claim DPS mini is a burden to the group have all said that they have used the build very effectively in other area's.

    So why the hate for someone else trying to do the same things that you claim has worked for you in the past? It boggles my mind?




    gonna try a new direction here....
    advice to aspiring young dps/mini's

    1 ballad of war is AWESOME
    2 make anthem of the free peoples your mule, work that skill for everything you can
    3 ballad of resonance and call of orome, open up with these for plus tactical and plus light damage
    4 ballad of war is AWESOME, spam it
    5 echoes of battle, keep it up on your target at all times, the dot is nice but the real value is the resists
    6 heal yourself, the yellow valar regen trait, and the heralds heal boon can help keep you healed while in all reds
    7 have the main healers back, you are more than capable of helping out with spot heals if needed, rally ect...
    8 nuke the trash, but be careful at the start of long boss fights with power, carry blue pots
    9 know when to drop WS and pump out the big heals
    10 ballad of war is awesome

  20. #70
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by KaylesX View Post
    Surely there are more of you out there?

    Since I solo everything that I can, when I go into groups, I prefer to do damage over healing. I'm used to using War-speech and the skills that go along with it, so I really don't have much experience healing anyone other than myself; what I do know how to do is hardly helpful enough to make me the primary healer. And that's okay with me...except when people start yelling at me for "not doing my job". I tell my groups before we start that I do DPS, so we can pick up another healer. Don't get mad at me, I'm doing the job I offered.

    /rant. But do any of you other Minstrels do more damage than healing?
    Just wanted to make sure the OP was shown again...because it has somehow derailed to people wanting to showoff parsing. Lolz, parsing in LOTRO.

    Anyways, there were two questions asked.

    Answers are:
    1) Yes
    2) Yes
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  21. #71
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Ah, it's the good old fashioned I-rolled-a-healer-but-look-mom-I'm-DPS-4-realz thread!

    To all the "DPS Minstrels" out there, I will take the great risk of being reasonable and say the following.

    1.) There are NO buffs that a DPS/WS Minstrel has access to that a healing Minstrel does not. None. Zero. Zippo, negative-bupkiss. Not a one. In fact, a lot of the Yellow trait-line serves to make a Minstrel's buffs MORE powerful by extending their duration, etc.

    The argument that one cannot heal and buff at the same time simply will not hold water. It is not a problem to buff and heal at the same time - especially when traited so as to extend the duration of the ballad buffs, thereby giving you more time! Yes, under emergency situations it can be difficult. But under normal circumstances there is no reason that a Mini cannot heal and keep up the usual buffs. Shoot, I do it and I am Red traited when I heal most of the time (out of WS of course).

    2.) Several posters have claimed that a WS Mini can compete in DPS with traditional DPS classes. As a decently geared (not perfect, and I don't raid) level 65 Minstrel I have my doubts. It has been my experience that while our burst/crit-based damage looks really cool, it's really pretty pitiful in any fight that lasts longer than a minute or so. Especially in boss battles in max-level 6-man instances.

    But I am an open-minded guy and I am willing to be proven wrong. I challenge someone to post EXACTLY how this is done and under what circumstances. I like dealing damage as much as the next fellow - if it can be done I want to get in on it too!

    The prevailing, majority view is that it can't be done to a level that makes it worth the effort. This is a notion that the known facts appear to back up, and seems to be supported by Dev comments made from time to time. Naturally, the majority is not always right - but the burden of proof is on those who claim otherwise.

    3.) Anyone who wants can certainly play the class any way they want. It's your time and your dime. But just like you're free to play the class in a non-traditional manner, I am entitled to my opinion that you don't understand the class. Want to change my opinion? Please do - I welcome rational arguments and evidence. But shouting others down about your "rights" is only likely to end with being /ignored. Show me something other than bravado that will convince me that you're right. No sarcasm intended here - if you know something I don't then I am all ears!

    You can swim upstream all you want. But it seems a little silly to choose to swim upstream and then complain about the current.
    Last edited by Marlowe221; Mar 02 2011 at 07:26 PM.
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  22. #72
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by Marlowe221 View Post
    Ah, it's the good old fashioned I-rolled-a-healer-but-look-mom-I'm-DPS-4-realz thread!

    To all the "DPS Minstrels" out there, I will take the great risk of being reasonable and say the following.

    1.) There are NO buffs that a DPS/WS Minstrel has access to that a healing Minstrel does not. None. Zero. Zippo, negative-bupkiss. Not a one. In fact, a lot of the Yellow trait-line serves to make a Minstrel's buffs MORE powerful by extending their duration, etc.
    There is a one Technically you do have a group wide 10sec in-combat speed buff from Call to the Second Age, but I am bringing that up as the only exception.

    The argument that one cannot heal and buff at the same time simply will not hold water. It is not a problem to buff and heal at the same time - especially when traited so as to extend the duration of the ballad buffs, thereby giving you more time! Yes, under emergency situations it can be difficult. But under normal circumstances there is no reason that a Mini cannot heal and keep up the usual buffs. Shoot, I do it and I am Red traited when I heal most of the time (out of WS of course).
    You are correct that is not an arguement for consistent groups or just groups of quality players. A Mini's ability to buff outside of healing is directly correlated to the skill of the group as a whole. Any Mini scrabbling to keep up with heals to numerous players is not even remotely thinking about buffing.

    2.) Several posters have claimed that a WS Mini can compete in DPS with traditional DPS classes. As a decently geared (not perfect, and I don't raid) level 65 Minstrel I have my doubts. It has been my experience that while our burst/crit-based damage looks really cool, it's really pretty pitiful in any fight that lasts longer than a minute or so. Especially in boss battles in max-level 6-man instances.

    But I am an open-minded guy and I am willing to be proven wrong. I challenge someone to post EXACTLY how this is done and under what circumstances. I like dealing damage as much as the next fellow - if it can be done I want to get in on it too!

    The prevailing, majority view is that it can't be done to a level that makes it worth the effort. This is a notion that the known facts appear to back up, and seems to be supported by Dev comments made from time to time. Naturally, the majority is not always right - but the burden of proof is on those who claim otherwise.
    I don't believe a single poster has said that a Mini can OUT DPS anyone. The arguement for DPSing in an instance is as long as the leader is cool with it or the people you are leading it is all good. It is viable while not being a few of the posters here preference. Those worrying about maximum effiency don't do it, those who enjoy it and want to have fun do it more often. Personally I hate healing others and will DPS every moment possible, but I am good at healing and will do it when I am in the mood or it suits my purposes.

    3.) Anyone who wants can certainly play the class any way they want. It's your time and your dime. But just like you're free to play the class in a non-traditional manner, I am entitled to my opinion that you don't understand the class. Want to change my opinion? Please do - I welcome rational arguments and evidence. But shouting others down about your "rights" is only likely to end with being /ignored. Show me something other than bravado that will convince me that you're right. No sarcasm intended here - if you know something I don't then I am all ears!

    You can swim upstream all you want. But it seems a little silly to choose to swim upstream and then complain about the current.
    You are looking for the arguement from the DPS camp that they are "right"...what is there to be "right" about? There is only the preferences of all of the players involved in a specific situation at a specific time. There is no right or wrong.

    Funny thing is, I don't think anyone is out to change anyone's mind...it is pretty obvious that it isn't going to happen for either camp. The only thing I am defending is young Mini's who enjoy the DPS side of the class. I don't only want the "I-LOVE-TO-WATCH-GREEN-BARS-GO-UP-AND-DOWN" camp aka the ILTWGBGUAD camp to have a voice on these forums. Poster's here could slap me around with a cold fish wrapped in parsing data and I would not care because I would agree with the data. When I have the opportunity to DPS in 6 man instances I do it and to hell with effiency.
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  23. #73

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterfell View Post
    stuff
    Well technically the bars don't go up and down, they go sideways.

    Other than the "I-LOVE-TO-WATCH-GREEN-BARS-GO-UP-AND-DOWN" camp...and the "facerolling zomg big number" camp..... what I was trying to get at is there is a 3rd camp...

    The one that loves to DPS solo, in small groups, in the moors, and in the occasional 6 man, knows the class limitations, efficiency compared to other classes, and exactly what it brings to the table.

    There can be a "grey" area in this, it doesn't have to be one or the other. That's mainly what I was trying to get through with to the OP, who makes it clear that he has no intention of ever healing a group, and only knows how to heal himself. Why can't you have it both ways?
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  24. #74
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by Anardil View Post
    There can be a "grey" area in this, it doesn't have to be one or the other. That's mainly what I was trying to get through with to the OP, who makes it clear that he has no intention of ever healing a group, and only knows how to heal himself. Why can't you have it both ways?
    That is not what I'm saying at all. I PREFER to deal damage rather than sit by healing. That doesn't mean that I never ever heal anybody ever. But healing isn't my primary objective.
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  25. #75
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterfell View Post

    I don't believe a single poster has said that a Mini can OUT DPS anyone. The arguement for DPSing in an instance is as long as the leader is cool with it or the people you are leading it is all good. It is viable while not being a few of the posters here preference. Those worrying about maximum effiency don't do it, those who enjoy it and want to have fun do it more often. Personally I hate healing others and will DPS every moment possible, but I am good at healing and will do it when I am in the mood or it suits my purposes.



    You are looking for the arguement from the DPS camp that they are "right"...what is there to be "right" about? There is only the preferences of all of the players involved in a specific situation at a specific time. There is no right or wrong.
    How is it that you managed to insert what I wrote into your post, have it in front of you while you typed, and STILL manage to put words in my mouth that I didn't say?

    I never said that anyone in this thread argued that a Minstrel can out-DPS a traditional DPS class. What I said was that some have argued that a Mini can COMPETE with DPS classes if played in a certain way. Please read your own post where you quoted me and you will see that is what I said. I will wait....

    Back yet? Great! Now, if you would like an example, please scroll up to the top of this page of the thread where someone says pretty much exactly that - i.e. that a properly played Minstrel can COMPETE with DPS classes in terms of damage out-put. Again, I repeat that no one (including yourself) seems to be willing to show the rest of us this how it is done.

    Edit: Oh, and I never said anything about "right" or "wrong." That was you. I was, however talking about FACTS which are either true or not true.

    The point I was making is that some people in this thread have been making claims that are potentially misleading to the mid-level OP who hasn't experienced endgame Minstrel play yet.

    While YOU may have found some people who are willing to run content at endgame with a DPS-Minstrel in a world where healers are tough enough to come by as it is, that is not the experience of most Minstrel players. Most other players expect a Minstrel to heal in a group - and it's not an unreasonable expectation given that it is the original main-healing class as designated by the people who made the game one pixel at a time.

    The OP deserves to know that people who play DPS-Minstrels in endgame 6-man (and higher) content are the exception and not the rule. IF the OP wishes to play a DPS role in endgame content on an every day basis, perhaps he/she would be better served by investigating other classes designed/more suited to that role. Of course, the OP is entitled to play his/her toon in any way he/she pleases.

    My only desire is that if the OP chooses to play the class in a non-traditional way, that it be done with all the facts in mind. If he/she wants to do it, with the full understanding that others may not always understand, then great - I sincerely wish him/her all the best.

    That being said, I DPS all the time in 3-man content and 3-man/Duo skirmishes. But that is not the same thing as 6/12-man content. Like Anardil, said there is a middle ground - but reading this thread a n00b could easily be led to believe that DPS in endgame 6-man instances is a normal part of being a Minstrel.

    But hey, maybe I'm wrong! Show me how to do it and I will happily join you in telling all the new players that they too can be legitimate DPS in full fellowship content.

    In the meantime, the only fair thing to do seems to be to inform the relatively inexperienced OP (no offense intended) that the I-don't-heal Minstrel is relatively rare and is likely to meet with some resistance in-game. If he/she decides to try it anyway well... He/She is free to make that choice. But why not have it be an informed one?
    Last edited by Marlowe221; Mar 03 2011 at 04:01 PM.
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