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Thread: DPS Minstrels

  1. #26
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    get a parser, parse your minstrel dps in a 6 man instance. Get on your champ/rk/hunter parse your dps. Minstrels dpsing does not help the group at all. The argument that says not everything is a dps race doesnt hold much weight. If speed didnt matter why ever bring a champion/hunter/rk why not just bring 5 tanks? thats a ton of survivability. Minstrel dps is quite low when parsed over 1 minute battles. Its not like i dont know how much damage we can do; however, i do know how much dps we do and its nothing to be impressed about. If its for fun then whatever, i dont see any reason to bring a dps minstrel along. Level a dps class if you want to dps in larger content. Dont lie to yourself and think you're doing good dps on a minstrel in 6 man content because a simple comparison to a dps class will prove you wrong.

    If you rolled a minstrel, did you really think you are going to be dps in any content that matters. Sure solo/pvp but not in instances. When i first rolled my minstrel in soa, i wanted to be a dps minstrel and i did. I soloed a bunch of things including torhammas and the other guy in forochel by using warspeech to its full potential but i understood that i would need to be healing in rift or cd.

    Dps really isnt our secondary role and it shouldnt be. Minstrels actually dont have a secondary role they fill in raids/6mans. We heal and buff, buffing isnt necessarily our secondary role since it's actually part of our healing role. A minstrel that doesnt buff really isnt playing the class correctly, so while i understand the need for that secondary role and the want to fulfill something other than healing in an instance, we simply dont have the dps right now to be efficient.

    Power isnt the only issue, our dps depends on crits. Long cooldowns for our dps hits, we only have 5 dps skills that have 10/10/20/30/30 cooldowns and if they dont crit its really bad dps. Even if you add our crits in every 21% of the time we hit those skills, it doesnt even come close to a dps class parse.

    If you want to "dps" in a 6man/raid. Go ahead, if the group doesnt mind but dont be deceived and think the dps is good by any means. Its far less than a dps class. I would even go so far and say its less than a support class such as a loremaster or burglar dps simply because of power(even with 1261 icpr i have problems with warspeech power),depending on crits( i have 11.7% crit chance unbuffed and when you add the 2600 rating it goes beyond the cap so it only adds to my dev, needless to say i have a high crit/dev chance.) and long cooldowns hold the minstrel back. If you took any one of those aspects away, minstrel dps would be overpowered for the class.

  2. #27
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by esdumby View Post
    Level a dps class if you want to dps in larger content.
    I believe this comment has already been addressed...

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterfell View Post
    Remember if anyone tells you "If you wanted to DPS you should have rolled _____ (insert class)" just tell them, "Well if you wanted Heals so much, you should have rolled _____ (insert class)"


    Quote Originally Posted by esdumby View Post
    If you rolled a minstrel, did you really think you are going to be dps in any content that matters. Sure solo/pvp but not in instances.
    I rolled a Minstrel because I liked the description of the class. I'm not a gamer. I don't play LOTRO because it's an MMO, I play LOTRO because it's based on the Lord of the Rings. Coming into the game, I had no idea what DPS was, much less solo/PvP vs. instances. But if you think that instances are the only content that matters, I'm going to have to say I disagree pretty strongly. I find soloing far more enjoyable than any group content - which is why I do what I do.


    If you don't like DPS Minstrels - that's totally cool. Don't play one and don't work with them. But that doesn't mean that it can't be done, or that no one will group with them. And it's certainly no excuse to start yelling at them, which is what I had a problem with to begin with.

  3. #28
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by esdumby View Post
    get a parser, parse your minstrel dps in a 6 man instance. Get on your champ/rk/hunter parse your dps. Minstrels dpsing does not help the group at all. The argument that says not everything is a dps race doesnt hold much weight. If speed didnt matter why ever bring a champion/hunter/rk why not just bring 5 tanks? thats a ton of survivability.
    Did anyone even argue the point that DPS Mini's are better DPS than other classes? That doesn't preclude a DPS Mini from having fun in a group. "Non-ideal" groups (to those who are stuck in strict character rolls) are a lot of fun and are often very successful.

    If you rolled a minstrel, did you really think you are going to be dps in any content that matters. Sure solo/pvp but not in instances. When i first rolled my minstrel in soa, i wanted to be a dps minstrel and i did. I soloed a bunch of things including torhammas and the other guy in forochel by using warspeech to its full potential but i understood that i would need to be healing in rift or cd.

    *lots of your personal stats*
    .
    I rolled a Mini in SoA because I liked the class abilities. Damage (ranged), self heals, self buffs, escape skills and looked like just plain fun.

    All that matters is that people are having fun. If you don't have fun DPSing in a group then don't, no need for the crusade filled with stat's (all of which I agree with, but it doesn't take into account the "fun factor") against it.

    Have fun with your prefered style of play.
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  4. #29
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterfell View Post
    Did anyone even argue the point that DPS Mini's are better DPS than other classes?
    Actually someone earlier in the thread did, lol, which is probably what the person you were quoting to was responding to.

    And I also think that "I won't heal, I DPS" minstrel is unusual enough that it's actually rude to let youself be invited into a PUG group BEFORE telling them that that's what you do. No one likes to have someone in the group, say hi and socialise them only to realise that the person they thought was going to be an essential and useful part of a group (healer) is actually going to be along for some class-experimentation personal enjoyment. Sure, you might like experimenting with your class and doing group content in novel (read slower, less reliable) ways and others especially kinmates or people you group with regularly would surely support that. But when people invite a minstrel they think they're inviting heals and anyone who refuses to heal as a minstrel should be up-front about that BEFORE you get an invite because it's rude to make people actually kick you from a group imo.

  5. #30
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    And I also think that "I won't heal, I DPS" minstrel is unusual enough that it's actually rude to let youself be invited into a PUG group BEFORE telling them that that's what you do. No one likes to have someone in the group, say hi and socialise them only to realise that the person they thought was going to be an essential and useful part of a group (healer) is actually going to be along for some class-experimentation personal enjoyment. Sure, you might like experimenting with your class and doing group content in novel (read slower, less reliable) ways and others especially kinmates or people you group with regularly would surely support that. But when people invite a minstrel they think they're inviting heals and anyone who refuses to heal as a minstrel should be up-front about that BEFORE you get an invite because it's rude to make people actually kick you from a group imo.
    It's not that I'm flat-out refusing heals; it's that I don't think I am a skilled enough healer to be solely responsible for healing a group. I'll throw out mass heals if I see everyone's morale lowering, and if one person has a particularly low morale, I'll try to heal them if I can (i.e., if I am not too far away or otherwise engaged). But I can't stand leaving War-speech off while I sit somewhere doing little but healing. I like to deal damage.

    And in my experience, there has been no socializing in the PUGs. Most of the time, I receive a series of blind invitations, which I always decline... If they decide to IM asking if I want to run something with them, I'll answer and tell them how I play. There is no opportunity to tell them anything BEFORE I receive an invitation; the invitation nearly always precedes everything else. (Incidentally, on the rare occasions that someone IMs me first, I'm usually unavailable to run anything.) If they don't want me in their group, then it's up to them to pick someone else - either kick me or tell me I'm not the person you're looking for. I won't be offended. I'm far more offended when I'm getting yelled at for not fixing everything (when there are other healers in the group). But please don't say that I'm rude, simply for playing my class the way I enjoy playing it. It's a game - if it's not fun, who cares about it?

  6. #31
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    oh, blind invites are a whole 'nother kettle of fish, didn't realise that's what you were talking about. I haven't seen a blind invite in about 40 levels, all my groups are done by tells.

    Agree that concepts of politeness etc. go out the door when you introduce blind invites. If people don't take the effort to ask you if you want in prior to inviting you then they get what they get. Although this probably does explain the frustration of people - when they see the little "minstrel" class icon they're assuming they get heals. If they're not talking to you and you're not talking to them that assumption is going to be disabused pretty quickly when the tank's health starts going down.

    Also afaik it's not that hard to learn how to heal on a mini, it might be a good opportunity to use these groups as a testing board for healing becuase by the time you hit moria instances you will find yourself extremely in demand as a healer and you'll have a lot of good group opportunities if you do so.

  7. #32
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    oh, blind invites are a whole 'nother kettle of fish, didn't realise that's what you were talking about. I haven't seen a blind invite in about 40 levels, all my groups are done by tells.

    Agree that concepts of politeness etc. go out the door when you introduce blind invites. If people don't take the effort to ask you if you want in prior to inviting you then they get what they get. Although this probably does explain the frustration of people - when they see the little "minstrel" class icon they're assuming they get heals. If they're not talking to you and you're not talking to them that assumption is going to be disabused pretty quickly when the tank's health starts going down.
    Most of my PUGs are still being coordinated from the Bree area. There is a ridiculous amount of people in Bree who do nothing but sit around and send blind invites to instances all day - or spam the chat asking for the same thing over and over. The few more courteous invitations I've had have been in Rivendell, but the only reason I have for being in Rivendell at the moment is visiting the Scholar's Guild, so I'm not usually there long enough to pick up a group and go.

    I do still let blind invite senders know of my play-style. Oftentimes, though, I'm getting blamed for the failures of more than one player: the main person to come to mind who has yelled at me for "not doing my job" was also a tank with very low morale who was a few levels lower than everyone else in the group. It was hard to keep everyone alive even once I dropped out of WS and joined the other Minstrel in healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    Also afaik it's not that hard to learn how to heal on a mini, it might be a good opportunity to use these groups as a testing board for healing becuase by the time you hit moria instances you will find yourself extremely in demand as a healer and you'll have a lot of good group opportunities if you do so.
    Learning how to heal while IN a group is a bit intimidating, no? Wouldn't it probably add to the conflict if I say I'll heal and suck at it? Level 34 seems an uncomfortable time to experiment. But by Moria I definitely hope to have improved, although I still intend to do DPS when I can. Old habits die hard.

  8. #33
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    tanks learn to tank in groups (taunts are not so much use in solo play!), hunters learn dps properly (ie not all front-loaded) in groups, loremasters learn to use about half their skills in groups - that's what groups are there for! There's no better place to learn. Read some strat guides if you're that way incline, otherwise just play around with your skills and see what works for you. General tips I think are don't spam AOE heals (will get big threat) and bolster courage is good. In a good group you should be able to basically spam heal the tank and throw ocassional heals elsewhere, if you're having to heal everyone all of the time then it's not your fault. The maxim is - if the tank dies it's the healer's fault, if the healer dies its the tank's fault and if anyone else dies it's their own fault.

    And if you're really worried, don't be afraid to join groups a few levels lower than you. people will appreciate your help and things will be much easier.

  9. #34

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by esdumby View Post
    get a parser, parse your minstrel dps in a 6 man instance. Get on your champ/rk/hunter parse your dps. Minstrels dpsing does not help the group at all. The argument that says not everything is a dps race doesnt hold much weight. If speed didnt matter why ever bring a champion/hunter/rk why not just bring 5 tanks? thats a ton of survivability. Minstrel dps is quite low when parsed over 1 minute battles. Its not like i dont know how much damage we can do; however, i do know how much dps we do and its nothing to be impressed about. If its for fun then whatever, i dont see any reason to bring a dps minstrel along. Level a dps class if you want to dps in larger content. Dont lie to yourself and think you're doing good dps on a minstrel in 6 man content because a simple comparison to a dps class will prove you wrong.
    Example group: Warden (tank), Runekeeper (healer), 2 Champions (dps), Minstrel (dps), Hunter (dps). Yes, the other three dps will have higher individual dps than the Minstrel. But thanks to the Minstrels' buffs, the Champions are doing a lot higher dps. For argument's sake, we'll call it 20% each from the fully traited Ballad of War being kept up, even though it won't wuite be 20%. The MINSTREL gets credit for that boost in Champion dps, not the Champions. If you'd just brought some other dps instead of that Minstrel, the team as a whole would likely be doing less dps instead of more, despite how distracted you're getting by individual numbers. Do you also argue in Captain forums about how Captains are useless and should be left out of teams?

    You write well, but you sure have some tunnel-vision going.

    And again, you give no credit to the passive healing or other buffs the Minstrel brings to the group, or that in the odd circumstance where the healer dies, the Minstrel dps can pop out and take over healing (we call that insurance).

    Please respond by missing the entire point of my post, and instead critique the class make-up of my 'example group'.

  10. #35
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by Pfeifenkraut View Post
    Example group: <snip>
    Cheers for the example group!


    By the way, there are some pretty good videos of minis doing DPS on YouTube, for those who care to watch. Balancing their use of power and being sure to have celebrant pots on hand keeps their power in check. It just takes some effort and a little bit of brainpower.

  11. #36
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by Pfeifenkraut View Post
    Example group: Warden (tank), Runekeeper (healer), 2 Champions (dps), Minstrel (dps), Hunter (dps). Yes, the other three dps will have higher individual dps than the Minstrel. But thanks to the Minstrels' buffs, the Champions are doing a lot higher dps. For argument's sake, we'll call it 20% each from the fully traited Ballad of War being kept up, even though it won't wuite be 20%. The MINSTREL gets credit for that boost in Champion dps, not the Champions. If you'd just brought some other dps instead of that Minstrel, the team as a whole would likely be doing less dps instead of more, despite how distracted you're getting by individual numbers. Do you also argue in Captain forums about how Captains are useless and should be left out of teams?

    You write well, but you sure have some tunnel-vision going.

    And again, you give no credit to the passive healing or other buffs the Minstrel brings to the group, or that in the odd circumstance where the healer dies, the Minstrel dps can pop out and take over healing (we call that insurance).

    Please respond by missing the entire point of my post, and instead critique the class make-up of my 'example group'.
    A minstrel healing will be giving the exact same buffs they do when dpsing so the 20% to champion dps is still there. The Rk healing should be dpsing and the minstrel should be healing in that group. The minstrel buffs dont go away when a minstrel is healing, as I said before a minstrel heals and buffs at the same time. I never said minstrels are useless; however, I will say minstrels are useless to the group if they are going to dps. Especially if there is an Rk that is fully capable of blowing the minstrel dps out of the water, a minstrel dpsing would only be done if (as stated by a previous poster) the group doesnt mind to go slower and the minstrel is allowed to have some fun doing something else other than healing.

    A dps minstrel brings nothing to the group that they could not bring while healing. If they could do both at the same time, well that would be great but it's either one or the other. The only difference between the roles are dps vs healing. The buffs will always be there, also in a healing build( such as yellow 3-4 in that line) our buffs last longer along with our anthems and the other different traits you can use when you arnt slotting red. If we arnt slotting red and trying to dps in a fellowship well crits go down, power output lessens but you lose so much damage if you arnt traiting reds, thus the buff traits would not be slotted.

    I hope you dont feel i missed your point. I believe your point was "a minstrel brings more to the group than most realize. They bring buffs to other classes such as tales/BoW/anthem of the free people/anthem of wizards/echoes of battle. While their dps may not be great, they are more than they seem" However, where i differ is a healing minstrel brings all of those as well, minus the dps which can be fulfilled by the rk in your group or simply another person.

  12. #37

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by esdumby View Post
    I hope you dont feel i missed your point.
    You did miss the point. You even followed my unpleasantly sarcastic directive at the end of my last post.

    To address yours first though: it is possible for a healing Minstrel to trait and work to keep up group buffs, but in my experience they do not always do so, and the ones that do are usually infrequent when they work up the Ballad chain and recast Ballad of War. Often they don't have the luxury of slowing down their healing to start casting ballads and buffs. And I don't know why you're assuming a dps Minstrel takes nothing useful from the yellow trait line....

    But here's the point: YOU'RE TELLING OTHERS HOW TO PLAY, and that there is only one way they should play! That everyone else should stop them from playing as they choose, in the way their classes were built! It's ridiculous and offensive! Mighty offensive. Runekeepers are made to be able to heal OR dps, Minstrels are made to be able to dps OR heal.

    Please, please, please stop writing posts anywhere, for any game, in any circumstance where you state that there is only one way to play and everyone should dismiss all other options. You're helping to create a dismissive and intolerant atmosphere that completely takes a **** on ingenuity, variety, creativity or freedom. Please stop saying things that boil down to "there is only one right way to play, and you should only play that way... but if someone else wants to let you play wrong, hey, good for them (still wrong though)".

    I feel sorry for all the players that get hurt or rejected by people emulating your mindset.

  13. #38
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    well the fact is, you are less efficient than any other dps class along with support classes. Thats a fact, there is no way of getting around that. I am saying, for the minstrel class, there is only one way to play it efficiently where you are giving the group something that is worth considering over another class. Healing and buffing at the same time is mandatory for any minstrel. If you want to dps, the group is losing a lot of damage and if you are conserving your power your dps lessens even further. If you want to play the class a way it was never designed for, actually it was designed against by the 3 reasons i stated (long cooldowns, power consumption and depending on crits) then fine. That really doesnt matter to me but the build, use, and efficiency of a dps minstrel in a 6man/raid is subpar.

    Im all for variety but this class does not have the capability of doing what you think it can. The fun aspect sure, but the efficiency and overall group contribution is very low for a dps minstrel. Personally, i dps in 3 mans except wargpens because when i did dps in wargpens i felt that i was not contributing enough because the bosses have considerably high morale. I rather just take a champion and a hunter to do the dps and i will heal, which yields to a faster-smoother run.

    (Btw you broke a forum rule by telling another poster they cannot/should not post in a public forum where everyone has the right to voice their opinions. If you want to voice your opinion against mine, that is fine but to say please dont post because your opinion is different than mine, well that is against forum policy)

  14. #39
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    I just wanna tell the OP that I agree with him. If you tell your group beforehand that you are DPS, they should not expect you to heal. If they have 6 people already including you, and no healer, then theres really only three things that can happen: a) Youll have to drop group for a healer (or they kick you) b) You try it with the current setup (so no heals) which will be very hard for most instances or c) Youll retrait for healing. The most important thing to remember is that there is nothing wrong with option c BUT it should be YOUR choice, not theirs. If you don't want to heal, then don't. Don't let them force you to and just leave group so they can invite a healer.

    The reason Im telling this is Ive been in the same spot where you are now, with my captain. Back in SoA days my captain was my main. Ive always played him as dps/tank. I did many rift runs, CD runs etc with that setup. And then Moria went live. Suddenly we got three traitlines. Well no surprise for me most of the traits I used in the past were lumped together in the red line. However, more and more groups started to force captains into the main healing role, HoH became the only acceptable build. I really hated that though so my captain got shelfed and stayed 60 for ages, even after the level cap was raised again. One day I just decided it is MY toon, MY build, MY fun. So levelled him up to 65 and started playing him again the way I wanted to. I build my LtC captain to the best of my abilities, which was a long process of trial and error: slowly giving up will/fate gear for more might/agi, and then trying out of my power pool can handle the new build. Now I have a perfect dps rotation supported by the right gear and legacies which allows me to crank out a ton of dps for a sustained period of time. So no burst dps, viable, sustained dps. People complaining on the forum that captain dps is so poor prolly try to dps in HoH with 600 will/fate and hardly any might/agi. My advice to them is to try out a 5 red build plus capstone, maxing out melee crit and making sure might/agi and vit are at least 600 with IDOME. Then you see what the captain is really capable off.

    My point is: your only limit is your imagination. If you want to be a dps minstrel, by all means: go for it. But be the best that you can be. Find the best gear. work on your traits and legendaries. Make sure your power pool can sustain it (which is easier on a mins I think, as high will/fate actually means MORE dps on a mins). However I gotta warn you it will not be an easy road. I know this better than anyone. Heck, I even lost my kin over it. You will meet a lot of opposition, so make sure you develop a thick skin, and try to find a regular group who let you play the way you want to.
    Last edited by Cronin_Stickyfingers; Feb 28 2011 at 10:55 AM.

  15. #40

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterfell View Post
    So, all of the content is a DPS race right and can't be enjoyed by anything but a "standard" group?

    There is a difference between saying you're a healer and staying in WS and joining a group saying you want to DPS. If the WS Mini is upfront then it is up to the leader, if the leader invites then it is up to the other's to leave the group if they can't reconcile it in their boxxed in cookie cutter world.
    Not buying the whole "stop being locked into a standard cookie cutter blah blah blah" defense.

    The OP implies grouping in mostly PuGs or groups he is not close with, and bottom line is that those groups either a) value their time, in which case they want dps classes to actually provide good dps in long fights and b) expect a healer to heal. (even if you tell them "I dps" you're just a bad player if when people start dying you don't drop WS and help out healing. I "dps" doesn't mean "I don't heal at all")

    If you are grouping in kin or with good friends who play well together and just want to have fun, and allow you do go into WS, shout a lot, have fun seeing big numbers every so often, and do less dps than the class you're replacing, that's up to you and obviously nobody is saying you can't do that. In PuGs and less familiar groups, they expect a MNS to heal/buff and there is really no way to justify getting upset with them or giving them **** for expecting that.

    This is beyond the fact that many PuGs have trouble enough finding 1 healer....



    I just hate the silly "stop being cookie cutter" defense.... Yes, I get it, a solo minstrel can tear mobs apart, and do outstanding burst DPS, and you can manage your power to slightly extend your fight time, and they are great in the moors, and I can see big numbers pop over a mobs head when I crit.... but in a 6-12 man instance? Especially a PuG? My job is to heal. Do I sometimes go into WS to clear trash mobs and such? Sure...but mainly, I heal/debuff in 6-12 man content, and that isn't "cookie cutter" that's just just an efficient use of my class and time.
    Last edited by Anardil; Feb 28 2011 at 12:05 PM.
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  16. #41
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Minstrels are not a DPS class, unless the fight is less than 20 seconds long. Once they are through the initial skill sequence thier DPS levels out lower than a champ,hunter, and RK.

    With that being said, for a relatively skilled group there is no reason what so ever to not have a Mini filling a DPS spot. Sure, he may not be the absolute best for the "DPS" role, but a mini is by no means a liability there either. With the changes coming in Update 2, a fully geared mini will bring SOOOO much to the table that its going to be hard not to actually prefer to have one in the group healing or not.
    Last edited by doug01; Feb 28 2011 at 02:24 PM.

  17. #42
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    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by Anardil View Post
    Not buying the whole "stop being locked into a standard cookie cutter blah blah blah" defense.
    Not trying to convince you into buying. You not buying it doesn't change the validity of the defense.

    The OP implies grouping in mostly PuGs or groups he is not close with, and bottom line is that those groups either a) value their time, in which case they want dps classes to actually provide good dps in long fights and b) expect a healer to heal. (even if you tell them "I dps" you're just a bad player if when people start dying you don't drop WS and help out healing. I "dps" doesn't mean "I don't heal at all")
    I completely understand you letting other people's desires dictate how you want to play and I am down with that. I am just saying the OP doesn't have to. I know I don't. I DPS when I want to and I heal when I want to whether it be in PVE land or PVP. Again as long as any DPS mini is upfront with the leader or the group he is leading it is on other players to make the decision.

    This is beyond the fact that many PuGs have trouble enough finding 1 healer....
    Not the DPSing Mini's problem.

    I just hate the silly "stop being cookie cutter" defense.... Yes, I get it, a solo minstrel can tear mobs apart, and do outstanding burst DPS, and you can manage your power to slightly extend your fight time, and they are great in the moors, and I can see big numbers pop over a mobs head when I crit.... but in a 6-12 man instance? Especially a PuG? My job is to heal. Do I sometimes go into WS to clear trash mobs and such? Sure...but mainly, I heal/debuff in 6-12 man content, and that isn't "cookie cutter" that's just just an efficient use of my class and time.
    Good for you. I applaud your playstyle, just know that there are others who play differently and do not consider this "efficiency" arguement (which seems to be the only arguement being brought up against a DPS Mini) to be the be-all-end-all decision maker for approaching content.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000c08ff/signature.png]Winterfell[/charsig]

    For My BW Brethren or Those Who Love Stick Figures [url=http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=322130] 3 Years of Stick Art [/url]
    R.I.P NIDOR (1970-2012): You shall be missed but never forgotten, thank you.

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    166

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by esdumby View Post
    (Btw you broke a forum rule by telling another poster they cannot/should not post in a public forum where everyone has the right to voice their opinions. If you want to voice your opinion against mine, that is fine but to say please dont post because your opinion is different than mine, well that is against forum policy)
    I really wouldn't say that that was breaking a forum rule. Pfeifenkraut was speaking AGAINST an intolerant atmosphere, not for one. Read past the part that says "Please, please, please stop writing posts anywhere", there are some important details later on

    Quote Originally Posted by Cronin_Stickyfingers View Post
    I just wanna tell the OP that I agree with him. If you tell your group beforehand that you are DPS, they should not expect you to heal.
    This. I'm not faulting anyone for needing or wanting heals, as some posters seem to assume; I'm just annoyed by people who expect me to have done something that I did not offer to do - nay, that I said I would likely do little of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anardil View Post
    The OP implies grouping in mostly PuGs or groups he is not close with, and bottom line is that those groups either a) value their time, in which case they want dps classes to actually provide good dps in long fights and b) expect a healer to heal. (even if you tell them "I dps" you're just a bad player if when people start dying you don't drop WS and help out healing. I "dps" doesn't mean "I don't heal at all")
    Read on. I mentioned above that I don't refuse heals completely, I just refuse primary healing and prefer to deal damage. I'm going to use WS, so I won't be able to take care of a lot of healing myself. If they don't want that kind of player in their group, they are more than welcome to ask me to leave or to kick me. Simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    With the changes coming in Update 2, a fully geared mini will bring SOOOO much to the table that its going to be hard not to actually prefer to have one in the group healing or not.
    SO looking forward to that. Maybe a little of the current hostility will die down when that happens.



    (To clear up pronoun confusion, I'm female.)

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    26

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    My Mini is L50 and I play 90/10 solo/group as I level up. It’s unclear to me how you guys are getting any mileage out of War Speech while solo. Feels wholly inefficient. The weak heals are such a huge burden – I don’t/won’t kite ZzzzzzZZzzz. Always out of power. Someone went into an easy diatribe about easy adjustments then didn’t discuss what those were. I’ve found it easier to power through content efficiently without WS. What am I missing?

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    YM
    Posts
    555

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    I can't believe anyone is taking this thread seriously- gotta be a troll, yeah?

    OP- assuming you are serious, don't be a faceroller. You are God to your group when you heal, revel in it, draw nourishment from your role and your success at it, anyone can mash a couple of dps keys, healing requires reflexes, co ordination and attention to detail.

    Do not limit yourself, i know right now due to lack of experience it seems hard, but it will become easier in time, and once you establish a rep as a good healer, you will get into groups and raids in nanoseconds.

    Would you rather be a mediocre dps that hunters, rks and champs will eat alive, or would you rather be the cornerstone of your group's success?

    No one needs another dps class, they need you, so skill up and have a blast!

  21. #46

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceifwien View Post
    I can't believe anyone is taking this thread seriously- gotta be a troll, yeah?
    I dont think the OP is a Trool, it's just that he's level 34. He hasnt experienced 2/3 of the game's content yet, and basically none of the challenging content. At those levels the DPS differences arent big enough to notice, so you cant really have an appreciation for how significantly the game changes as you get into end-game raiding, which is basically the position that the PM and MA guys are coming from.

    In all honesty, if the OP really wants to do damage he should make another character now. He's going to get really frustrated in end-game. So much so that he'll probably quit and play something else. I'm not being harsh, I'm just trying to give you honest advice- Mins is not the way to go to dps. The game isnt designed so that all classes can do all things equally, and Mins are about as low on the damage list as it gets. Make a Champ! Nothing wrong with a Champ.

  22. #47
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Ontario, California
    Posts
    5,589

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by Lotharun View Post
    My Mini is L50 and I play 90/10 solo/group as I level up. It’s unclear to me how you guys are getting any mileage out of War Speech while solo. Feels wholly inefficient. The weak heals are such a huge burden – I don’t/won’t kite ZzzzzzZZzzz. Always out of power. Someone went into an easy diatribe about easy adjustments then didn’t discuss what those were. I’ve found it easier to power through content efficiently without WS. What am I missing?
    Don't want to derail the thread, but message me with questions regarding WS and I would be more than happy to assist. You could potentially make your life much easier out killing quest trash.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000c08ff/signature.png]Winterfell[/charsig]

    For My BW Brethren or Those Who Love Stick Figures [url=http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=322130] 3 Years of Stick Art [/url]
    R.I.P NIDOR (1970-2012): You shall be missed but never forgotten, thank you.

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    175

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Sidestepping the whole "can we" and "should we" discussions, the OP is concerned that he can't handle being main healer for a group. That's the primary problem.

    There's really no substitute for just jumping in and getting your hands dirty. Heal a group. If you suck, you suck, but you'll learn. If they yell at you, it's hardly worse than them yelling at you now, right? Thing is, if you're traited Warrior Skald, then tossing out a heal here and there isn't helping anyone anyway, because your healing is gimped by that line. At level 34 you're probably already 4 deep (I think?), so you have the full -80% heals. An inspire fellows at that point is going to be useless.

    Go in there, turn off War Speech, hit Bolster Courage, and see green bars fill up. It's not hard to get your feet wet, and eventually you'll come to revel in the position and the realization that they can't do it without you. Healers are always in demand. You keep them alive, you keep them doing damage. You're the one that lets the boss die. And, heck, with the 20% on the BoW legacy (which you'll get eventually), you can even claim a full person's worth of damage solely because of you if you have all melee types in your group.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/012030000000d90a1/01005/signature.png]Laurjo[/charsig]

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Ontario, California
    Posts
    5,589

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurjo View Post
    Sidestepping the whole "can we" and "should we" discussions, the OP is concerned that he can't handle being main healer for a group. That's the primary problem.

    There's really no substitute for just jumping in and getting your hands dirty. Heal a group. If you suck, you suck, but you'll learn. If they yell at you, it's hardly worse than them yelling at you now, right? Thing is, if you're traited Warrior Skald, then tossing out a heal here and there isn't helping anyone anyway, because your healing is gimped by that line. At level 34 you're probably already 4 deep (I think?), so you have the full -80% heals. An inspire fellows at that point is going to be useless.

    Go in there, turn off War Speech, hit Bolster Courage, and see green bars fill up. It's not hard to get your feet wet, and eventually you'll come to revel in the position and the realization that they can't do it without you. Healers are always in demand. You keep them alive, you keep them doing damage. You're the one that lets the boss die. And, heck, with the 20% on the BoW legacy (which you'll get eventually), you can even claim a full person's worth of damage solely because of you if you have all melee types in your group.
    I agree with your point that the best way to learn to heal is just throw your hat in the ring and learn on the fly. I disagree though that the blue line (currenty) beyond Life Singer and the negligible +2-5% makes any difference in healing. A WS traited mini throws out the same heals as long as the legacies on their book are the same as the WoR traited one.

    For anyone new to healing and decides to run non-anon however should probably just trait blue to shut people up.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000c08ff/signature.png]Winterfell[/charsig]

    For My BW Brethren or Those Who Love Stick Figures [url=http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=322130] 3 Years of Stick Art [/url]
    R.I.P NIDOR (1970-2012): You shall be missed but never forgotten, thank you.

  25. #50

    Re: DPS Minstrels

    OP, I know exactly where you're coming from. I've avoided any type of grouping with my minstrel because of the exact same reasons. I personally have no problem with healing and actually love the idea of being able to do it. However, it's definitely not something I want to do constantly if I'm in a group.

    Personally, I have to wonder how many people in this thread telling you you're playing your class wrong actual play as a minstrel on a regular basis and do so in a group. Minstrels basically have one healing skill, Bolster Courage. The majority of the rest of the healing skills are practically useless outside of an emergency. That means about the only thing you're doing is spamming Bolster Courage and then trying to get some ballads tiered up for some extra healing as well as Ballad of War. That's it. The reason I wonder if others in the thread play as a minstrel is because that would be boring as hell. And yet, that's the only thing people want out of a minstrel.

    It's damn obvious to me that most people have never played as a minstrel because there are so few of them around and if more people played as minstrels they'd hopefully not be such jackasses about a minstrel doing something other than healing.

    I'm also not going to accept the BS line people try to push about minstrels being the "savior" of the group and to "revel" in that glory. There isn't **** for glory about it. No one ever tells of the time the minstrel kept the tank healed or how the minstrel threw out a Bolster Courage at just the right time or anything of the sort. The only thing you hear about is the "super crit" which took down 3/4 of the boss's health or the tank who held 50 mobs. The vast majority of the time people want a specific thing from the minstrel and any deviation from the expectation is "evil". "They" want cookie cutter minstrels doing a cookie cutter job so "they" can have their fun at the expense of the minstrel's fun.

    And people wonder why it's so difficult to get a healer for a group.

    I say just play the class the way you want. As long as you're up front about how you are going to play, the problem is with the group or the group leader. If they don't like it, it's too bad for them and you find something else to do or find another group. I'm definitely not going to allow someone else to dictate how I play my character. That said, if someone is wanting me for a group for healing I'm going to join the group as a healer or I'll tell them I am not going to join the group and they will need to find a different healer and I'll go about my merry way. I will warn you now that you will run into people who will throw a fit because of that, and I mean even after you tell them you aren't going to join the group because you don't feel like healing. I've already dealt with this and I make sure to avoid that person or any group they are in after that.

    I think a big problem with grouping in this game is that there are too many people who think the most fun from grouping comes from blasting through the instance or raid or dungeon or whatever as fast as possible. To me, that's just really sad. The absolute most fun I ever had grouping was the Heartrot instance in Evendim with my warden. The group was formed from a couple of groups of people who just happened to be in the same area doing the same quests and not even the quests leading up to the instance. We definitely didn't have anything resembling a "proper group", didn't have a healer, my warden was the closest thing to a ranged class and there were only 5 of us. We finished the instance with only one wipe and had a ton of fun doing it. Sure, it's not a difficult instance so a perfect group wasn't needed but that's beside the point. From reading many posts here, most of the group content generally isn't that difficult and doesn't require the perfect group.

    I guess it boils down to the fact that I'm a casual player and I have more fun soloing or grouping with other casual players who don't care about the perfect group. I play the game to have fun and derive that fun from the content itself. When I'm in a group with likeminded people, we all end up having a lot of fun no matter what the result is. Sure, it's great to have people who know exactly how their class works, but for me it's not necessary. Mistakes happen and sometimes things get out of control but trying again after learning from those mistakes is all part of the fun. Simply put, if the content is fun I'm almost guaranteed to have fun no matter how the group plays their characters.

    Oh, one last thing. I always make sure to go out of my way to make a big deal out of thanking the healer of the group. I rarely ever see anyone do this and it's one of the reasons I rarely even consider grouping as a healer. Healers all too often get blamed for anything which goes wrong and rarely ever get praised.

 

 
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