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  1. #101
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    Re: AW: Re: AW: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art asset

    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    It is even more basic. Turbine does not have the dollars. This is advantage that Blizzard has. I believe Blizzard gets more money from WoW in one month than Turbine gets from all sources in a year. Blizzard can afford to hire 10 times as many developers as Turbine. Put those developers to work creating niche features that are desired by a small percentage of the customer base.

    Turbine is never going to be able to compete with Blizzard on feature set. Or richness of a feature. The only way Turbine can be better is because Blizzard decides to not provide that functionality. One such example is player housing. It is not a feature of WoW. Blizzard could do an awesome housing feature. Blizzard chooses not to bother.
    I know this is off topic but you may have just explained why Turbine is avoiding housing upgrades, at least in part. Theres a lack of competition incentive.
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  2. #102
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    Re: AW: Re: AW: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art asset

    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    It is even more basic. Turbine does not have the dollars. This is advantage that Blizzard has. I believe Blizzard gets more money from WoW in one month than Turbine gets from all sources in a year. Blizzard can afford to hire 10 times as many developers as Turbine. Put those developers to work creating niche features that are desired by a small percentage of the customer base.

    Turbine is never going to be able to compete with Blizzard on feature set. Or richness of a feature. The only way Turbine can be better is because Blizzard decides to not provide that functionality. One such example is player housing. It is not a feature of WoW. Blizzard could do an awesome housing feature. Blizzard chooses not to bother.
    So how many million Dollars do you need to release the sources of the interface? Or to hire one or two dedicated interface-designers?

    Of course Turbine doesn't have the money to hire more people. Or it's more like Turbine being unwilling to hire more people. It's not as easy as "Okay, we have a budget of 100 million Dollars, let's create a nice little MMO with medicore features!" versus "Haha! We have more money than anyone can imagine. Let's create the best MMO in the world with the best possible features!". Both Blizzard and Turbine are aiming for the highest profits with the lowest budget. Blizzard doesn't throw money away as well as Warner will not put more money (if any) into Turbine just because they can.

    It's all about strategy. Turbine could aim for "long range satisfaction" of the customers, which might require more attention maybe more expenses for the details. Unfortunately for players like me Turbine apparently aims for the "casual players" who might play the game for six months, spend some money on a subscription plan and in the shop an never come back after six months. That's ok. It's a plan and it's good one on a market with many contenders and customers who usually don't play a game for more than six to twelve months. The downside is, that Turbine doesn't "waste" time on the details since target audience don't pay much attention to the details. But for me the details make the difference between a good and a premium product, and if you don't pay attention to the details, you'll never deliver a product that can compete with the best products on the market.

    In any case, I don't see why Turbine should not be able release the interface-resources at least. I don't even ask them for an overhaul of the interface or a richer implementation of LUA (not even bugfixing). I just want the resources - the art assets and the XML-source. There have to be one or two people at Turbine who constantly work on the interface. Why can't they find a solution that would allow them release the sources that are allowed to be altered?

  3. #103

    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    I think they read this post but actually they are overflowed by the problem's migration, compensation ... and all that.

    I would not throw any conjecture about what-when-why until they done with that.

    So i wait ...
    Ashannae(LM85 Taylor) Laureanna(Hunter85/Sch) Annaelen(Mins/78/cook) Moranae(Mins/76/WS)

  4. #104
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    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    The request has been around for several months now. But yeah, with ongoing migration there are surely no resources left to address the request, and that's ok. I still have little hope, that we'll receive at least the XML-code at some point in the future (and we don't need more than the code).

  5. #105
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    Re: AW: Re: AW: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art asset

    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    It is even more basic. Turbine does not have the dollars. This is advantage that Blizzard has. I believe Blizzard gets more money from WoW in one month than Turbine gets from all sources in a year. Blizzard can afford to hire 10 times as many developers as Turbine. Put those developers to work creating niche features that are desired by a small percentage of the customer base.

    Turbine is never going to be able to compete with Blizzard on feature set. Or richness of a feature. The only way Turbine can be better is because Blizzard decides to not provide that functionality. One such example is player housing. It is not a feature of WoW. Blizzard could do an awesome housing feature. Blizzard chooses not to bother.
    Software Engineer, UI


    SUMMARY OF POSITION

    Turbine, Inc. seeks a Software Engineer, UI – a talented, hard-working, and creative individual who is self-motivated, process-driven, and who has a passion for developing interactive software user interfaces using a variety of technologies. The position is a member of the user interface development team, a part of Turbine’s game production department.

    Leveraging existing and ever evolving Turbine technologies, the role of Software Engineer, UI is to conceive, design, document, and implement user interfaces for Turbine’s award winning games. This person will work with other engineers and artists to create exceptional experiences for the players of Turbine’s games.

    Successful applicants will be prepared to demonstrate a portfolio of User Interface work, including code samples.
    this position was posted 7 june '11

    so which of you wonderful UI artist wants to move to Boston?

  6. #106

    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    It is even more basic. Turbine does not have the dollars.
    Just for one UI dev that would communicate with the modding community ? I've said it before in this thread but having such a dev would be worth it as then Turbine could abuse us and get things free - made by the community (except the pay of that one fellow who would obviously have some other responsibles too).

    Quote Originally Posted by megaboy View Post
    this position was posted 7 june '11

    so which of you wonderful UI artist wants to move to Boston?
    Well.. that is some good news at least. Cheers Megaboy for spotting it out. Too bad it's not a position for lotro-purely.
    Boston ? ehm mmm ;p
    Last edited by DaimonUI; Jun 13 2011 at 01:33 PM.
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  7. #107
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    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art asset

    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    Blizzard can afford to hire 10 times as many developers as Turbine. Put those developers to work creating niche features that are desired by a small percentage of the customer base.
    In general this makes a lot of sense. In the case of LotRO, it doesn't really match the way Turbine sets their priorities. Take for example, the development time spent on LUA support. Turbine first started talking about LUA in July of last year, they released LUA support in September and by December nearly all LUA support and interaction stopped. Turbine is capable and willing to support niche features. Our main complaint is that it's inconsistent.

    In any case, we're not asking to hire tons of developers to release and occasionally support interface modders. As Daimon said just one dev would do, probably not even full-time. Then leave it to the modders to create awesome stuff for free.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a0000001aad1c/01001/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
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  8. #108

    Re: AW: Re: AW: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art asset

    Quote Originally Posted by Halvitur View Post
    So how many million Dollars do you need to release the sources of the interface? Or to hire one or two dedicated interface-designers?
    More money than Turbine has available. I suspect most of these people throwing numbers like a million dollars around. Or one staff position. Never had any experience working in software development. More importantly no experience with budgets, scheduling, staff hours. There is never enough people. Never enough staff hours to go around in most houses.

    There is always a team of decision makers that look at every little piece of work that has to be done. Feature enhancement. Bug fix. They ask for costing estimates. They decide which ones get deferred, worked on a little bit - shelved, done, cancelled.

    This process goes on continually on a product like Lotro that in continuous development. As a feature set - Update moves down the line. Each little piece that makes up the whole gets the - Is it keeping up the pack? Is it meeting the quality objectives? If not - what will it take to get on track? The decision may be made to remove it - like the PvP region in Isengard - maybe it will return later. Or the Dragon Raid earlier this year - that was pushed into Isengard - perhaps pushed the PvP region out.

    The decisions are often made on less than one hour increments. I do not have a clue as to how long the art pack will take. The issue is most likely - The UI department is backed up - Too many new features to do - If these are Lotro Store support - Coins - This is job one.

    This situation happens in my work. Our group has more work than we can do. A number of us are contract workers. All our employer has to do is say to Yula - We will pay you for another 10 hours this week to do some of this other stuff. The company does not have the money in the budget. It is not important enough to shell out another chunk of dollars. The work does not happen.

    Turbine has a open position in the UI department. This position could be a attrition position. Somebody left. Most of the hires at companies I've worked for are replacements. Not staff expansions.

    Even if it is a expansion position. It takes time to get a req. You got to post the opening. You to find someone. You got get them in. You got to train them. You always a backlog of critical work they have to do NOW. It needed to be done back in April or May.

    Bottom Line - The companies I've worked for keep track of work on the staff hour level. Every time I fix a bug, I have to input the number of staff hours. I have tenths of hours for input. I can put in 1.1 hours. Every week my total billable hours have to equal all the projects that I charged them to. Every project - bug - whatever has an authorization limit that I can not go over.

    I even managed to get a charge number to charge the time for tracking system.

    One last thought - I do not work for Turbine. I have no idea what their planning and costing system is like. I have worked for companies that have no effective system. I worked for one very large company. They had no clue what anything cost them. All they knew is that they spent x dollars on software development. They got Y out of the pipe. Sadly this company was one of the 20 largest USA Fortune 500 companies when I worked for them. They gotten smaller over the years because their competitors have been chewing them up.
    Last edited by Yula_the_Mighty; Jun 13 2011 at 09:59 PM.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  9. #109

    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    Quote Originally Posted by DaimonUI View Post
    Well.. that is some good news at least. Cheers Megaboy for spotting it out. Too bad it's not a position for lotro-purely.
    Boston ? ehm mmm ;p
    A req means Turbine has a job opening. It does not mean that they are expanding operations. Most reqs are for attrition replacements.

    We can always hope it is an expansion position. Not a - we are losing ground steadily because we are short of hands. In either case, replacement or expansion - typically there is a lot of high priority pent up demand that has to be worked off.

    I have no idea what Turbine's attrition rate is. A lot of software houses that I have worked for have a 10% rate. They have 200 developers, they have to hire 20 a year to stay at 200.
    Last edited by Yula_the_Mighty; Jun 13 2011 at 10:06 PM.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  10. #110
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    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    A req means Turbine has a job opening. It does not mean that they are expanding operations. Most reqs are for attrition replacements.

    We can always hope it is an expansion position. Not a - we are losing ground steadily because we are short of hands. In either case, replacement or expansion - typically there is a lot of high priority pent up demand that has to be worked off.

    I have no idea what Turbine's attrition rate is. A lot of software houses that I have worked for have a 10% rate. They have 200 developers, they have to hire 20 a year to stay at 200.
    i watch Turbines job postings quite regularly.
    last time i saw a posting for that position was back in '07

  11. #111
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    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    @Yula
    I've already worked for big companies (a mobile phone provider you know very well), even in the gaming business (one of the biggest publishers, later for a developer). I know a bit myself about schedules and how little things can destroy a well planned schedule. And you are right; if even little things like extracting the code, that is free to use, from the latest release of the UI are not meant to be part of the usual responsibilities, it can be very difficult to "just" find the time to get it done.

    However, we don't ask Turbine for a new interface, just the XML-source of the latest additions. I understand that this takes more time than the naive player might expect. Someone would have to go through thousands lines of codes an extract everything that is not meant to be changed by the community, and that can take "some" time. And I understand that this not one of the usual responsibilities of the developers and that it can be difficult to find a day or two to get the job done by one of employees. But it doesn't require huge expenses and "ten times more emnployees".

  12. #112
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    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    Quote Originally Posted by Halvitur View Post
    @Yula
    I've already worked for big companies (a mobile phone provider you know very well), even in the gaming business (one of the biggest publishers, later for a developer). I know a bit myself about schedules and how little things can destroy a well planned schedule. And you are right; if even little things like extracting the code, that is free to use, from the latest release of the UI are not meant to be part of the usual responsibilities, it can be very difficult to "just" find the time to get it done.

    However, we don't ask Turbine for a new interface, just the XML-source of the latest additions. I understand that this takes more time than the naive player might expect. Someone would have to go through thousands lines of codes an extract everything that is not meant to be changed by the community, and that can take "some" time. And I understand that this not one of the usual responsibilities of the developers and that it can be difficult to find a day or two to get the job done by one of employees. But it doesn't require huge expenses and "ten times more emnployees".
    while all that you and Yula say is correct, it is not an excuse.

    Turbine should never have done hobbies or housing or allowed skins or made Lua available if they were not going to devote resources to it.

    no dev should EVER introduce a new feature, hype it up and then abandon it.

    that is not how one builds communities.

    but that is how one destroys them.

  13. #113
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    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    I want to give suport to this thread.
    I’v recently returned to the game, and there are several mods that I like to use, thinking that turbine may be leaving this all behind frustrates me, many of the default ui elements are bulky or just not well done, and it’s nice having alternatives to the default that you can use.

    Turbine, please give the moders the resources to keep this up, they do an awosme job and a good portion of the community I believe uses this.

  14. #114
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    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    Quote Originally Posted by megaboy View Post
    Turbine should never have done hobbies or housing or allowed skins or made Lua available if they were not going to devote resources to it.
    I completely agree with you.
    If there's one thing that I really don't like about LOTRO, than it is the lack of a clear and consistent strategy. For some time now we could never know, what this game will be like in a few months. They introduce some features, they develop the game in a certain direction, and a few months later some of the features, that were introduced a few moths ago with a huge ballyhoo, are no longer supported and the direction of the game has changed.

    When I started to play LOTRO (during Beta) I expected a usual MMO, that will introduce an addon and several updates each year (that was your promise, Turbine) and steadily evolves into a virtual Middle Earth, where I can travel from the Shire to the Lone Mountain. Now we have a F2P-game (ok, I can live with that since I understand why this move was necessary and even clever), that has barely made it to Isengard and became a patchwork of different "design-strategies" and abandoned or poorly implemented features.

    Ok, I'm getting off topic. Again, you are right. If Turbine doesn't want or doesn't know how to support and develop the features they want to introduce, than they should not introduce these features at all. And before we talk about limited resources again: How many resources has Turbine already wasted for abandoned features and the changes of their design strategies?

    @Stryder_Ian
    If Turbine doesn't want to suppurt UI.modding any further, than they should at least revamp the entire Ui since it is ugly, not "neutral" (looks too elvish to me) and inconsistent. And they should at least allow us to change the art assets if possible.
    Last edited by Halvitur; Jun 15 2011 at 03:39 AM.

  15. #115
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    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    Quote Originally Posted by megaboy View Post
    Turbine should never have done hobbies or housing or allowed skins or made Lua available if they were not going to devote resources to it.
    No dev should EVER introduce a new feature, hype it up and then abandon it.
    There are so many that agree with megaboy even though they may not have found this thread. I have to admit I have played around with the skinning but I have chosen to just use a few of my favorite changes and not change the over all style of the ui. But to let players make those changes that they love and then to take them away because they arent able to be updated after the latest patch has come out is worse than not allowing them in the first place. I love this game, not every change that has come out, but the over all fun of it and how beautiful it is to play.

    Please allow us to get the UI back to the wonderful earth tones of the game in the begining and fix housing (free placement), and support skinning and Lua options that you got us so excited about in the past. Where is the commitment to things you have previously supported and encouraged in the past Turbine? I would much rather have these things fixed and options to change interfaces brought back than another little 3 man instance. But who ever thought of slapping hobbits in NC was brilliant and put so much fun/challenge back into the game.

    Frosty we love you for all of your support and help in these areas and we miss it desperately!!


    Elle
    Last edited by Elewryn; Jun 15 2011 at 02:28 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/06205000000009c6a/01006/signature.png]Elewryn[/charsig]
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  16. #116
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    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    At risk of sounding melodramatic I'll say the following.

    The state of LOTRO skinning is a sorry and sad state and it's totally Turbine's fault for being incredibly lazy/indifferent to it. Every other self-respecting MMO has a healthy LUA and skinning support (or functional equivalent) right from the get go and turbine has not only lagged behind here, but completely dropped the ball on skinning.

    I've been pretty silent about what gets added and doesn't get added to the game but, dang it, I am now. This is a disgrace! I understood the LUA conundrum because you didn't want to become WoW but for cripes sakes, give us a full toolbox for skinning already! I've been a paying member for 2+ years and at this point, I am putting my opinion for this out in the open so you can no longer ignore the spreading impatience at addressing your customers demands.

    Skinning tools: now!

  17. #117
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    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    I just switched from WoW to LOTRO and I have to agree the lack of UI support is indeed depressing. I have to admit I just sort of skimmed through the posts but a lot of people felt Turbine has no justification for hiring a UI dev. Well, in the case of WoW they have in the past year HEAVILY redone the default UI after spending years letting gamers make their own mods. Addons such as Bartender, Carbonite, and Atlas/Atlasloot that have been developed and are widely used are being used by Blizz as models for default UI development. They didn't do much to change the default UI for 5 years and just supported people who wanted to customize their experience and in short they made themselves a UI development team of several hundred thousand. Now they they have the resources to have a big UI team, they are starting to change the default UI to the stylings of the major addons. It really makes sense for Turbine to support UI mods.

  18. #118
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    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    Quote Originally Posted by megaboy View Post
    Turbine should never have done hobbies or housing or allowed skins or made Lua available if they were not going to devote resources to it.

    no dev should EVER introduce a new feature, hype it up and then abandon it.
    This is one of my BIGGEST grudges with this game. Something gets introduced, hyped, even used as a selling point, and then is quickly left to die because a developer quit or has moved on to something else.

    Like megaboy said, if you're not going to devote resources to it in the future, don't introduce it.

    UI customizing has died because Turbine won't release the updated assets.

    LUA scripting is still in "beta", has been for what will be two years come November. Like UI customization, it seems to be dead as well.

    Nothing has been done with housing since the latter part of 2007.

    We've had the total of one (1) hobby since 2008. Fishing does get boring after three years.

    With all of this added extra "revenue" that Turbine keeps talking about, it still seems that very little is being put back into the game. Dev's still say they don't have enough time to work on things or that there aren't enough dev's to get the things done that need to be done, so that makes you wonder what's really going on at Turbine and where all of this extra money is going or even if there's extra revenue at all.

  19. #119
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    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    I'm giving my support to this thread in the hopes that the more people who speak out, the more Turbine will notice and care.

    Skinning / UI really needs some love from the Devs. Please give them access to the new art assets. It's not that I don't like the main UI, but I prefer the more compact ones that are out and would really like it if they can continue to update them.

    Please... release the art assets.

  20. #120
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    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    Casual Stroll to Mordor posted an article yesterday on the state of lotro plugins and included a bit about UI.

    you can find it here -

    http://www.casualstrolltomordor.com/...lotro-plugins/

  21. #121
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    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    and some REALLY good news from Narrel here:

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...art-Monitoring

    As for something I CAN be more specific about, I have inherited our ol' friend the skinning system now as well so I will personally make sure that you do not go another major release without getting the latest skinning library uploaded. So, barring me having an unfortunate meeting with a bus or other large vehicle beforehand, you'll at least have an accurate skinning library .zip file posted circa Isengard.
    i just hope there are authors left to update/create by then

  22. #122
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    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    Quote Originally Posted by megaboy View Post
    and some REALLY good news from Narrel here:

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...art-Monitoring
    Great find! Thanks for posting it here.
    [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/duvi/"]Duvi[/URL]
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000038e43/01000/signature.png]Duvi[/charsig]
    [B][COLOR=RoyalBlue]Vastin[/COLOR][/B]: [I]"But whenever we take feedback on most game systems, such as character builds, economics, or [/I]especially[i] anything to do with PvP, then we are forced to read very carefully between the lines of any and all player feedback, as it is all inevitably skewed by self-investment, self-interest, and a deeply subjective viewpoint that increases in direct proportion to how long or successfully a player has occupied a particular role."[/I]

  23. #123
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    Re : Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    I don't make skins but if an update is required to continue the modders great work they should get it.

  24. #124

    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    Thanks for all of you for the support from behalf of the modding community. Now that Narrel has responded we will just have to wait and see if we get the resources with ROI release. Thanks all!
    ╔- -- -
    ║■ Author of DaimonUI for The Lord of the Rings ONLINE ■ Lotrointerface.com ■ ðÐ
    ║■ Sürmä öf Föröchël, Chämpiöns öf Läürëlin. Fröm thë kin öf Thë Shädöws ■
    ║■ http://www.moxguild.com/
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  25. #125
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    Re: Hey Frosty(or any dev that works on the UI) any word on new art assets????

    according to Lowj in his thread here:
    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...mescom-2011%29

    he had a convo with Sap in which he says this:

    I mentioned reading about an update to the API for the Lua plugin system - Sapience confirmed that this will indeed be in RoI launch! He says it's still being finalised and that the dev working on it has a lot of other things to do before September 27th but he's confident that it will be completed on time. He went on to say that the UI skinning community will be thrilled to find a tremendously useful update on their tools and available skin definitions.

 

 
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