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  1. #126
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    2,427

    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Sammeek View Post
    Funny All that info already there. Under the users Name and Most of the time shows on Screen. I dont need a Buffbar or meters to tell me this and I dont need a pug to tell me this. But I been playing for as long as lotro been out. I have been useing all this time to Learn Each Class and every skill of each class. I also watch How other People play and I ask questions.

    I think you dont like the idea of Freedom of how someone else plays and you want to force your play styles on anyone and everyone. I believe everyone should be given a Fair Chance. If the Raid Failed. Everyone talk about what went wrong and solve the issues. I beleave the Rights belongs to the User not to a Pug.

    For most of the Raids I have been we have Won. When there a Raid that Fails like what your talking about 12 People Die. It tends to be a Connection Lost from a player, Someone Lag or Brining in new players into a Raid. At one time we where all Newbies.

    Who cares if you beaten Raid Boss 30 seconds faster then me. To me what counts is when we beat a Raid and everyone lives.
    You're making a fallacious argument - that the group who wants increased UI plugin utility in the game is somehow trying to force you to play "their way". Arguing against increased plugin utility is actually doing what you accuse others of doing - forcing them to play based on how you think the game should be, because you don't even want to allow individual players to decide if they want to use plugins or not.

    If you keep wiping a group because you're missing a debuff, it's not likely that BuffBars is going to help any - you'll just get booted from the group for being incompetent. Likewise, if a group forms and demands that you run a specific plugin, you're not forced to join that group - you can pick another that doesn't require anything special. Like I've said, groups already do that exact same thing in-game without plugins, it's just requiring specific virtues, gear, class skills, etc.
    [CENTER][SIZE=2][COLOR=Red][B]Nicodemous Bloodhelm, lvl65 Dwarf Champ, Firefoot - Mithril Knights[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=2][COLOR=Red][B]Vhat vas zhat, sandvich? Kill zem all? GOOD IDEA![/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=2][COLOR=Red][/COLOR][/SIZE][/CENTER]

  2. #127

    Angry Re: Best dps meter available

    Lemming, if I wanted to personally attack you, I would do so in a manner that can not be confused for anything else. Just ask some of the people in WoW who I had the "pleasure" of giving a dressing-down to after they broke core guild rules. I am TRYING to pry off the rose-tinted glasses you have implanted in your face so you can see that things are NOT the "oh we all will get along" world you believe it is and that this sort of "nothing wrong with meters" mindset will cause severe problems in the future. You pointed it yourself; people insist that someone be "correctly" traited for instances with required virtues, etc. There is already a mindset here of "one true way" do things - now imagine how more shrill their screams for conformity will be when they have a tool that these people can point to say "I'm X spec and I'm doing twice your dps!"

    Personally I could care less what some moron and his kin has for a failure tolerance. In the same way if they want me to run some third-party program just to group with them, I have one response for them "take your attitude you wannabe-noob and shove it up your rear until you and your buddies choke on it." I have done things in these games that they will never aspire too, and I have done it without having to bend my neck to someone who I did not respect first and had solid evidence to back up their assertions. Sadly I am certainly not a typical player; most people will break under the peer pressure and adopt the attitudes of those who refuse to take less than "perfection" simply to fit in. Once that starts, things grow as more and more people try to fit in until the original reason why things were done is lost and people simple believe it is true because "everyone knows it."

    Well, regardless of the outcome I'm done arguing here. I've achieved more than I expected to when SuperSiabra saw the parallels to other situations. If you haven't opened your eyes now to the fact that history is repeating itself here then I'm afraid you are yet another lost cause who would rather live in delusion than try to change things for the better. No matter what arguments you throw out, the plain fact is that Turbine has the ultimate decision here and if their hesitation to open up the interface for alteration is any indication, they already know that these sort of addons are more trouble than they're worth.

  3. #128
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    2,427

    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Treerat View Post
    Lemming, if I wanted to personally attack you, I would do so in a manner that can not be confused for anything else. Just ask some of the people in WoW who I had the "pleasure" of giving a dressing-down to after they broke core guild rules. I am TRYING to pry off the rose-tinted glasses you have implanted in your face so you can see that things are NOT the "oh we all will get along" world you believe it is and that this sort of "nothing wrong with meters" mindset will cause severe problems in the future. You pointed it yourself; people insist that someone be "correctly" traited for instances with required virtues, etc. There is already a mindset here of "one true way" do things - now imagine how more shrill their screams for conformity will be when they have a tool that these people can point to say "I'm X spec and I'm doing twice your dps!"

    Personally I could care less what some moron and his kin has for a failure tolerance. In the same way if they want me to run some third-party program just to group with them, I have one response for them "take your attitude you wannabe-noob and shove it up your rear until you and your buddies choke on it." I have done things in these games that they will never aspire too, and I have done it without having to bend my neck to someone who I did not respect first and had solid evidence to back up their assertions. Sadly I am certainly not a typical player; most people will break under the peer pressure and adopt the attitudes of those who refuse to take less than "perfection" simply to fit in. Once that starts, things grow as more and more people try to fit in until the original reason why things were done is lost and people simple believe it is true because "everyone knows it."

    Well, regardless of the outcome I'm done arguing here. I've achieved more than I expected to when SuperSiabra saw the parallels to other situations. If you haven't opened your eyes now to the fact that history is repeating itself here then I'm afraid you are yet another lost cause who would rather live in delusion than try to change things for the better. No matter what arguments you throw out, the plain fact is that Turbine has the ultimate decision here and if their hesitation to open up the interface for alteration is any indication, they already know that these sort of addons are more trouble than they're worth.
    I don't have "rose-colored glasses" cemented onto my face, and it's frankly insulting that you assume I do simply because my opinion differs from yours. I daresay calling me "blind to the facts" (well, "facts" as you see them) and "incapable of understanding anything else" qualify as personal insults without ambiguity, but, whatever. I'll stick to the topic.

    I don't have a vested interest either way. I don't care if DPS meters come to the game. I can parse my damage data to assess various builds and rotations on my champ, so I don't need one, and I really don't care if other champs in the group do more damage than me - if the raid leader thinks I'm good enough to be in a raid, then my dps must be decent enough. Likewise, I don't care if the kin I'm in mandates dps meters - specific gear is already mandated by game mechanics, and there are requirements for capped virtues and weapon setup. It doesn't bother me because everyone else in the group is held to the same standards, and those standards are no lower than what I'd personally expect of anyone did the standards not exist.

    As far as the "one true way" - guess what? Hybrid builds in LotRO, especially at end-game, don't work very well. Sure, you'll have the occasional minstrel who does a might build, or a captain who is stuck on the idea that he can out-dps a champ, but for the majority of end-game content, there's a bare minimum expected for running raids. You're not going to do it in world drop gear, you're not going to do it with low-level virtues - and I'm perfectly fine with that. Why? Because it's an end-game raid. It should be hard, and it should have some passive requirements gating being able to beat it (notice, I didn't say to run it, I said to beat it - back to the SoA Rift mechanics). If I spec my champ for AoE and want to run BG, I'd expect the raid leader to tell me to re-trait. Why? That build is worthless for that content. If I'm not intelligent enough to be able to set my character up the right way, to be as efficient in his given class role as possible, the raid leader should either tell me to get set up right, or make me sit the run out. It's unfair to the other 11 people to put hours of work in, only to wipe the raid because I felt like being "different".

    Group roles are extremely simple. They're outlined on the character creation screen - champs are melee dps, captains buff, tanks hold aggro. If you want to pretend your minstrel is a hunter and try to nuke stuff, fine. Do it solo, do it in small group content, but don't b*tch when you can't get into a raid group because you don't want to fulfill your class role.

    As far as your comment about comparing dps in a fight - little logic here. I'm a champ. If another champ is doing significantly more damage than me, I'm doing something wrong. If we're both on the same target, and not doing something like spam clobbering of off-tanking, our numbers should be relatively close - give or take a little for different skill rotations, gear setup, etc. If the other champ is doing twice the amount of damage I'm doing, then yes, I completely expect someone to say, "*** are you doing?". I should look at my class traits, my virtues, and my gear, and figure out why my dps is so low. The entire point of hybrid builds is to do different things well, but not to the point (especially dps classes) that it gimps my main role in a group, and if it is gimping me that much, a dps meter will show that and I can adjust my setup accordingly.
    [CENTER][SIZE=2][COLOR=Red][B]Nicodemous Bloodhelm, lvl65 Dwarf Champ, Firefoot - Mithril Knights[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=2][COLOR=Red][B]Vhat vas zhat, sandvich? Kill zem all? GOOD IDEA![/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=2][COLOR=Red][/COLOR][/SIZE][/CENTER]

  4. #129
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicLemming View Post
    But that's the thing - the role of a captain is to buff and heal, do a little dps when they can, and emergency off-tank. Even ignoring all of the DPS meter arguments, if a captain is in a raid and is doing DPS instead of buffing, he's going to get called on it.
    That was kinda my point: Both the FFXI jobs I mentioned have multiple roles they can fill, but the community as a whole only accepts them in a single one, and you can and will be booted from parties and linkshells if you so much as show up wearing gear for a different role.

    Mind you, I don't expect to see that magnitude of pigeonholing or elitism to happen here (the mechanics here don't lend themselves to it, and the community as a whole is a lot less dickish than FFXI's), but I could see it leaning that way if circumstances continue to encourage it. There's already been a noticeable change in how the community approaches class analysis here since CStats was introduced, and I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that more widely-publicized analysis tools will further that shift.
    [CENTER][FONT=Book Antiqua][COLOR=dimgray]::: [SIZE=3][URL="http://waywatchersofcardolan.guildportal.com"][COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=4]T[/SIZE]he [SIZE=4]W[/SIZE]aywatchers of [SIZE=4]C[/SIZE]ardolan[/COLOR][/URL] [SIZE=2]:[/SIZE] [URL="http://palantiri.guildportal.com"][COLOR=LightBlue][SIZE=4]T[/SIZE]he [SIZE=4]P[/SIZE]alantiri[/COLOR][/URL][/SIZE] :::[/COLOR][/FONT]
    [FONT=Garamond][COLOR=DimGray][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/balgr/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Balgr Snowmantle[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=Silver]: Curmudgeon[/COLOR] :[SIZE=4][COLOR=#303030].[/COLOR][/SIZE][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/saladoc/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Saladoc Willowleaf[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=Silver]: Stick-in-the-mud[/COLOR]
    [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/ciruth/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Ciruth of Gondor[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=Silver]: Itinerant Scholar[/COLOR] : [COLOR=LemonChiffon][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/halvr/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Halvr[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/khasi/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Khasi Flamebrow[/COLOR][/URL], and [COLOR=LemonChiffon]Kholi[/COLOR][COLOR=Silver]: At your service![/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT]
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray][URL="http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a346/MrPinstripes/FFXI%20Stuff/AustrevenMH21409.jpg"][COLOR=dimgray]Austreven[/COLOR][/URL][/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray][SIZE=3][COLOR=#303030].[/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray]of Cobalt (Bismarck)[/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [/CENTER]

  5. #130

    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Except that captains are pressured to pump out healing because their DPS is supposedly that inferior....

    That's going to be a fun experience if these tools ever see widespread usage.... getting booted from a group because I wasn't spending enough time pumping out heals because (Valar forbid) I felt that the extra healing was pointless since the primary healer was doing an excellent job, and contributed to DPS instead of pointlessly healing people (that is, when not buffing). Or, the more likely one, getting a healer kicked from the group because I got a little to Rally Cry spam happy (sloppy mass AE heal spamming vs well placed single target healing), and actually beat out the primary healer with healing, and then asked to main heal. At at least 4.2k per spam (6 * 700), ignoring the HoT.... I don't doubt that it's theoretically possible, especially in swarm situations.

    The hybrid classes are going to be hit the hardest with the "diagnostic tools" because they don't have an easily quantifiable role, and what a hybrid needs to do from fight to fight varies tremendously. This truer with PUGs than it is with kin groups, because in the PUGs, it's like hitting a moving target, and trying to get a group through successfully is half the fun (at least to me.... hey I like a challenge). Kin groups, on the other hand, things go smoothly, so you know what to expect, and what is expected of you. There's a world of difference in how each uses the "diagnostic tools".
    There really is no true hybrid class though. Captains, RK's, Burglars, and LM's all bring unique things to the table that just aren't easily bypassed with raw healing or raw dps. Do an SG run with and without a captain.. in fact try multiple runs without a captain, once take a hunter or champ in place of the captain, trust me, even though you're adding "more dps" by adding a top tier dps class, your dps will feel slow in comparison to bringing a captain instead of that extra champ or hunter, due to marks, buffs, and oathbreakers. Try bringing in a second healer instead of that captain, not only will your dps feel slower, but survivability will become an issue, as when it really comes down to it, a captain with a low cooldown on their rally cry in an instance like SG does more healing than a minstrel and shares more power than a loremaster, and indirectly contributes more dps than any other single group member.

    Try doing BG without RK's and tell me you don't miss the do not fall skills, it doesn't matter how much dps the rk is doing or how much healing they're pumping out, the damage they're saving with those skills makes them worth taking end of story. The fact that they can switch from doing damage to healing if you need a little extra or vice versa is icing on the cake, even if it's only switching long enough to throw a bubble during a critical time in a fight when everyone's taking damage. Their corruption removal is also one of the most reliable and convenient, being instant, requiring no extra conditions, and being ranged. They can be measured for top tier dps as well, but to be honest if I see a dps rk not really high on the dps meters, the very first thing that will come to mind is that they're doing other support jobs I can't do on a hunter or champion.

    LM's are a total support class, spot heals, power sharing, stun dots, debuffs, who the heck would ever judge an LM by dps or healing numbers they put out?

    Burglars are a class that again, can indirectly contribute more damage than any other person in the group, with their debuffs, even if their personal dps is lower, taking a burglar in place of another hunter or champ you'll kill things faster.

    Now mind you the caveat on this philosophy is that having 1 of each of these support classes is a godsend, and in raids, you may need 2 captains, 2 rk's, and having a 2nd loremaster or 2nd burg might not be optimal in most situations, but can still be beneficial (burg debuffs stack, but have diminishing returns, 2 LM's can pump power back and forth with net gain, but if power isn't a real pressing issue the usefulness of this is a mixed bag), but stacking too many of these classes will cut down on raid dps, etc instead of adding to it. So these support classes will always get a raid spot or 2, regardless of their dps or healing output, but just a spot or 2, not a half of a raid full of them.

    Meanwhile in that OTHER MMO, there's a LOT of classes that bring very little that's unique to the table.

    Rogues, Hunters, and Mages do almost nothing but dps, mages have a buff, and can conjure food and drink before the raid to pass out, and taxi to cities, that's about it really. Druids and Shamans are true hybrid classes, but they don't do much that's really unique.. a buff (varied in stats but not really that powerful or necessary in the long run), an in combat res, totems, and small auras for only their individual group in a raid (vs the raid wide benefits of our support classes), so basically they have to show that they can pull their own weight because their unique skills aren't so much that it's worth bringing them just for those.

    If you're wanting to bring in say a restoration shaman, you have to show that you're worth bringing over another holy priest, or restoration druid, or holy paladin, because they all do the same function, and what your class brings to the table that's unique is minimal (totems that like I said, only affect your party (1 of 5) in a raid, and only in a limited area on top of that). It can be more beneficial to bring in another priest, over bringing in that shaman, even if you already have 3-4 priests. What gets that Shaman that spot in the raid, is being able to show they can heal more than that 4th or 5th priest would.

    That doesn't happen in LotRO, if you have the option between taking a 3rd Minstrel vs an RK, you take the RK, unless that RK is just GROSSLY incompetent. The RK's unique skills that they bring to the table outweighs the extra raw healing. On the flip side, Minstrels do have their own unique skills like ballad of war, call to greatness, and their tales.. so don't think it's a good idea not to bring minstrels in favor of healing RK's.

    This game has dones a pretty amazing job at making every class valuable in a raid...








    ... Except wardens.

  6. #131
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,780

    Re: Best dps meter available

    The security issue involved in giving out your IP address is minimal; trivial even:

    a) Any website you ever visit, or application you ever run that connects to another compute can access your IP address and do with it what they will (this includes LOTRO, people you connect to via P2P programs, servers you connect to via Ventrilo, IM Messaging Programs, etc, etc).

    b) Even if the person you give it to happens to be a haXor (which lets face it, in reality there is a near 100% chance they're not), they can't do anything with just your IP address unless you've turned off all your firewalls, and windows updates, etc.

    c) Only the person who is hosting needs to "explicitly" give out their IP address (not that that means anything given point (a)). Note the server does not forward on your IP to any of the other clients, so if connecting, your IP is only ever shared with at most one person at once (the person you connected to).

    Summary (tldr): Giving out your IP address to someone for use with this DPS meter is not going to cause your computer or LOTRO account to get hacked.

    Regardless, if you are a security zealot, and still don't believe me, you can still run the application without connecting to anyone to view your personal information only (which will shortly include all incoming healing and power info).

    Note that you can also connect to computers within your own network which may be a useful feature for some people.



    Running a third party application:

    The only valid security issue you may have is that the application itself contains some sort of malware/etc. I can assure you that it does not (of course you have no real reason to believe me). For those who wish to view it, the source code is currently available inside the .zip file when you download the plugin.
    (VS files are included - you can view, compile and run it yourself)

    If you're unwilling to analyze the program for yourself, then you can at least take some considerable assurance in the fact that LOTRO Interface (who hosts the plugin download) does their own checking for malware before allowing a plugin (or update) to be uploaded, as do several other players (the amount of code isn't all that large). It's unlikely they'd let a program that includes malware slip through. A snippet of the Upload Disclaimer From LOTRO Interface:

    • "Executable files are not allowed, except for some very specific cases. We test and decompile all executable files that are submitted. In some cases we may ask for the source. This processes could take awhile."
    • "The file and its contents are free of viruses, trojans, spyware, malware, and worms. If anything malicious is found you will be banned and your account information handed over to proper authorities"

    If you're still not satisfied, simply don't use it. No-one is ever going to force you to. But be aware there's an equally high chance of malware being included in anything you download (eg: Cstats, Ventrilo, visiting a dodgy LOTRO fan site, etc).

    Summary (tldr): While it is of course possible for any program to contain Malware, you have the option of viewing and compiling the source files yourself, or trusting that LOTRO Interface has done a reasonable job of testing for malware for you.

    If you've ever used Cstats or any similar application that you downloaded from the internet (and you probably have), the risks involved running them are no different to the risks involved in running this application.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dyfrin View Post
    Logic in this thread is non-existant... You all owe these players who put time into making things that enhance the game an apology.
    Just read your post later after writing this up. Pretty much exactly what I'm trynna say here. Thanks



    Some answers to questions (note: I only read up to page 5 so far):

    First let me note that a new version of the plugin will be coming out in the next 2-3 days which includes:

    • Your Dmg dealt (player/pet)
    • Your Dmg taken (common/fire/etc & aoe/melee/ranged/etc)
    • All incoming healing info
    • All incoming power restore info


    • Connected players's Dmg dealt (player/pet)
    • Connected players's Dmg taken (common/fire/etc & aoe/melee/ranged/etc)
    • Connected players's outgoing healing
    • Connected players's outgoing power restores

    So the plugin is more of a full analysis of combat now rather than just simply a DPS meter.


    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrawn View Post
    SO does this mean people you group with could be unknowingly monitoring your DPS if they have this? Or is this to monitor your own privately?
    No. You have to explicitly connect to them for them to see your info.

    Additionally, the process of settings this up is complicated enough (and involves several unwarranted security concerns) such that you can feel pretty confident that no-one is ever going to force anyone who doesn't want to, to use the program.

    To be honest I think this plugin provides fairly happy medium between those who do want dps meters and those who don't. The possibility of using it exists for those who want to, but it is far enough separated from the game to make it super unlikely that anyone would ever require you to use it.

    Hopefully this will allow those of us who want to use dps meters to do so, while others who don't want to won't have any of their fears realized.

    Summary (tldr): People who don't want DPS meters effecting their gameplay should be happy that those who do want them now have an option to use one that should keep them satisfied, yet makes is super unlikely for the gameplay of non-users to be affected (as compared to the way a meter that is better integrated into the game potentially might).

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyPenzaanz View Post
    Do these not dumb-down encounter(s)/fights to just facerolling?
    No. Absolutely not.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyPenzaanz View Post
    Will the development team not take notice and then see fit to give us just more Turtle, Sword Halls, or Grand Stairs -esque dungeon and boss encounter designs?
    Certainly not.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyPenzaanz View Post
    Is there not a likely hood that with the prevalence of these meters you will see diminishing roles of specialty classes like LMs, Burglars, and Captains or class restructuring to appease the number crunchers?
    No. For one thing, if people who are leading your group don't realize that Burglar's/Capts contribute a large amount of damage via buffs/debuffs in groups with 6+ people (as well as other utility), then you probably don't want them leading your group.

    Additionally, I think it's more likely people will realize the difference in dps between non-dps classes and dps classes is not that large as they thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyPenzaanz View Post
    Is there not already a separation of players that are for and against gating with claims of "care-bearing" and "ez-mode"? How many that are for a means to gating are also for dps/threat meters?
    • If your tank is so bad that they can't hold aggro its pretty apparent.
    • If your healer is so bad that they can't keep people up, its pretty apparent.
    • If your dpsers are so bad that stuff takes forever to kill, its somewhat apparent (but a little less obvious than the other two).

    aka: If you suck, observant people already know it.

    Having been in two of the top few kins on my server, I can with high confidence that its unlikely anyone in this game is for gating dps beyond what is already perceivable as "decent" dps in game.

    If there are people out there who feel the need to gate based on specific percentages based off the readings of a dps meter, then they are certainly a very, very (very, very!) small minority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rouven View Post
    Btw, does the DPS meter show your own skirmish soldier?
    It shows your dmg versus your pets dmg (although if you have multiple pets, their dmg is all bundled together).

    Note LMs & Capts can have up to three pets (std pet, skirm pet, oathbreaker).

    Comments on other points people raised:

    DPS Meters are unlikely to effect what Turbine gives us access to. Geez, they haven't even made half decent base UI Elements yet, so they clearly aren't focusing on adding stuff to lua anytime soon. I agree with Devildoc that the line should be drawn on UI vs AI, but that whole topic of conversation is kinda irrelevant to this thread.

    The Dmg Meter is accurate (sheesh, you can see people are reaching when they start talking about things like the accuracy of the tool to support their view). I can guarantee that the total dmg/taken/heal/power values will be correct 99.999% of the time (the application uses TCP so virtually all messages are guaranteed to be received eventually). The DPS values may differ fractionally due to varied transmission time, but the relative Dmg values will be unaffected.
    Last edited by Evendale; Jan 30 2011 at 10:07 PM.
    [B]Elendilmir - [COLOR=#3333ff]Evenwyn[/COLOR][/B] Burglar[B] - [COLOR=#3333ff]Evendale[/COLOR][/B] Guardian
    [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#ff0000][SIZE=2][B]Combat Analysis[/B] [/SIZE][/COLOR][SIZE=2]([B]v4.2.3b[/B]) - [/SIZE][/FONT]Download "[URL="http://www.lotrointerface.com/downloads/info502-CombatAnalysis.html"]here[/URL]"

  7. #132
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    1,780

    Re: Best dps meter available


    Sneak Peak of new version for those who are interested
    (that's a popup window in the bottom right corner so you can see the breakdown of dmg taken for other players in more detail):


    [B]Elendilmir - [COLOR=#3333ff]Evenwyn[/COLOR][/B] Burglar[B] - [COLOR=#3333ff]Evendale[/COLOR][/B] Guardian
    [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#ff0000][SIZE=2][B]Combat Analysis[/B] [/SIZE][/COLOR][SIZE=2]([B]v4.2.3b[/B]) - [/SIZE][/FONT]Download "[URL="http://www.lotrointerface.com/downloads/info502-CombatAnalysis.html"]here[/URL]"

  8. #133
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    Apr 2007
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    400

    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Treerat View Post
    the plain fact is that Turbine has the ultimate decision here
    QFT. Take care friend. /salute! I think there is a lot more innovation that can go into an mmorpg than repeating the old stuff, but Turbine does get to make the call, and it'll be interesting to watch. Thanks for your insights.
    Last edited by SuperSiabra; Jan 30 2011 at 11:05 PM.

  9. #134
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    Mar 2008
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    2,427

    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by CWood View Post
    That was kinda my point: Both the FFXI jobs I mentioned have multiple roles they can fill, but the community as a whole only accepts them in a single one, and you can and will be booted from parties and linkshells if you so much as show up wearing gear for a different role.

    Mind you, I don't expect to see that magnitude of pigeonholing or elitism to happen here (the mechanics here don't lend themselves to it, and the community as a whole is a lot less dickish than FFXI's), but I could see it leaning that way if circumstances continue to encourage it. There's already been a noticeable change in how the community approaches class analysis here since CStats was introduced, and I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that more widely-publicized analysis tools will further that shift.
    I guess that's honestly where it comes down to how you group. I can't remember the last time I ran a true, glff PuG - now, I've run plenty where I may only know one or two and the rest are from friendly kins, friends of friends, etc, and that normally ensures at least a base measure of class competence and understanding of the mechanics of the fight.

    With PuGs, you run the equal risk of getting in with utterly incompetent players, and the wanna-be elitists who couldn't cut it in a raiding kin and take it out on everyone they think is a worse player than themselves (normally, everyone). You can only go so far in mitigating the aggregate level of stupidity in a PuG.

    With that being said, sure, there are a lot of kins that don't allow players to stray from "their job" with "the right build" in a group, but there are a whole lot that, within reason, allow a lot of freedom in how people do things. In my limited experience with kins, the better ones (but not the "server firsts" kind) are typically a lot more open to allow weird builds and strange group makeups, as long as the goal still gets accomplished.

    It just comes down to who you group with normally, and trying to fix the dice throw that are PuGs is just an exercise in futility. A lot of people argue, "Well I'm a casual, I can't do anything but PuGs," which is wrong, because the greater majority of kins out there are casual-oriented, have large memberships, and most people in them are willing to help out. The reluctance a lot of casuals have to enter a kin, or join a larger one that's more useful, makes no sense to me - this is an MMO, after all.
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  10. #135
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post

    Sneak Peak of new version for those who are interested
    (that's a popup window in the bottom right corner so you can see the breakdown of dmg taken for other players in more detail):


    *pic*
    Holy balls, Evendale... That's a lotta widgets.

    Did you switch the incoming damage meter over to type of attack rather than damage type (or is that just an option), and is it still an option to display incoming damage as straight percentages with no bar display at all?
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    [FONT=Garamond][COLOR=DimGray][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/balgr/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Balgr Snowmantle[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=Silver]: Curmudgeon[/COLOR] :[SIZE=4][COLOR=#303030].[/COLOR][/SIZE][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/saladoc/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Saladoc Willowleaf[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=Silver]: Stick-in-the-mud[/COLOR]
    [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/ciruth/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Ciruth of Gondor[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=Silver]: Itinerant Scholar[/COLOR] : [COLOR=LemonChiffon][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/halvr/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Halvr[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/khasi/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Khasi Flamebrow[/COLOR][/URL], and [COLOR=LemonChiffon]Kholi[/COLOR][COLOR=Silver]: At your service![/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT]
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  11. #136
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicLemming View Post
    It just comes down to who you group with normally, and trying to fix the dice throw that are PuGs is just an exercise in futility. A lot of people argue, "Well I'm a casual, I can't do anything but PuGs," which is wrong, because the greater majority of kins out there are casual-oriented, have large memberships, and most people in them are willing to help out. The reluctance a lot of casuals have to enter a kin, or join a larger one that's more useful, makes no sense to me - this is an MMO, after all.
    Makes no sense to you... You say, this is an MMO, after all... Allow me to explain:

    Ok, I love PUGs. That's where the most challenge is. The ideal mmorpg to me is I can group with all kinds of people and learn from all kinds of people. Swim in the ocean, and not in a pond.

    This is an MMO, after all. PUG is vital to the survival of an MMO. EQ has dwindled because PUG is dead in EQ. I see MMORPG like the ultimate learning experience, where you can hop in, sit at a bar sipping your drink (solo-hunting), and pick up that fun group and witness how other people play their classes, and learn how many play styles there are out there. Instead of chiding others for "overstepping boundary", I would always allow others to perform "my" class role when they can manage it in their style when they have secondary skills that can function well. Amazingly interesting. Once I've learned from say 500 people, seen all sorts of mistakes made--including my own, figured out how to recover from those mistakes, I will learn how to cope with a lot of situations in hunts.

    And then there are the stories told by different travelers in my journey that I've grouped with, their lessons in life. It makes MMO fascinating to me. The #1 requirement for me to play an MMO is how viable its PUGs and PURs are. Without that viability, I may as well play with my own rl friends in a XBox game. They are my rl kinship. Why do I want one in an MMORPG. Have you noticed how many guilds have drama because out of 54 people there will be at least 5 personality conflicts? It's an MMORPG after all. I prefer to keep my own private friend list of say 200 in an mmorpg just so my friend A who hates my friend B won't need to hear each other speak in the same guild channel. They will each be just having fun talking to me, and vice versa. They may have friends who can't stand me.

    I truly hope Turbine will keep PUG and PUR viable, and not require people to punch keys like mad in very narrow roles in a race to confirm to some meters. That kills all the fun out of an mmorpg. The best attraction in an mmorpg is its millions of interesting people to meet, each having their own styles. Not an army of identical bot-like figures.
    Last edited by SuperSiabra; Jan 31 2011 at 02:53 AM.

  12. #137
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicLemming View Post
    As far as the "one true way" - guess what? Hybrid builds in LotRO, especially at end-game, don't work very well. Sure, you'll have the occasional minstrel who does a might build, or a captain who is stuck on the idea that he can out-dps a champ, but for the majority of end-game content, there's a bare minimum expected for running raids. You're not going to do it in world drop gear, you're not going to do it with low-level virtues - and I'm perfectly fine with that. Why? Because it's an end-game raid. It should be hard, and it should have some passive requirements gating being able to beat it (notice, I didn't say to run it, I said to beat it - back to the SoA Rift mechanics). If I spec my champ for AoE and want to run BG, I'd expect the raid leader to tell me to re-trait. Why? That build is worthless for that content. If I'm not intelligent enough to be able to set my character up the right way, to be as efficient in his given class role as possible, the raid leader should either tell me to get set up right, or make me sit the run out. It's unfair to the other 11 people to put hours of work in, only to wipe the raid because I felt like being "different".

    Group roles are extremely simple. They're outlined on the character creation screen - champs are melee dps, captains buff, tanks hold aggro. If you want to pretend your minstrel is a hunter and try to nuke stuff, fine. Do it solo, do it in small group content, but don't b*tch when you can't get into a raid group because you don't want to fulfill your class role.

    As far as your comment about comparing dps in a fight - little logic here. I'm a champ. If another champ is doing significantly more damage than me, I'm doing something wrong. If we're both on the same target, and not doing something like spam clobbering of off-tanking, our numbers should be relatively close - give or take a little for different skill rotations, gear setup, etc. If the other champ is doing twice the amount of damage I'm doing, then yes, I completely expect someone to say, "*** are you doing?". I should look at my class traits, my virtues, and my gear, and figure out why my dps is so low. The entire point of hybrid builds is to do different things well, but not to the point (especially dps classes) that it gimps my main role in a group, and if it is gimping me that much, a dps meter will show that and I can adjust my setup accordingly.
    There are a lot of "should's" in your post, and most of your concept are based on the formula for mmorpg raids set by EQ. What I feel strange is with all this maximizing, you won't even attempt a PuG due to its "futility". Imho, what we need for fun are more innovative raids that will allow people to show many different styles, and to use their secondary skills in an invasion.

    In addition, "end game" raids are really created to be time-sinks, an offshoot of the subscription-based business model. Down the road if mmorpgs march down the road of smaller quest pack sales in the store, there won't be as much need to create that type of gated raids.

    Players like Nymph who would rather not worry about gear may be able to purchase raid-entry gear (that will come with the raid quest package in the store, but useless elsewhere) and hop right to a raid for fun. Furthermore, in order to balance the reward for a raid force that accepts lesser geared players, Turbine may decide to calculate the total stats in a raid force's gears, and award higher number of barter items for a less-well geared raid force, to achieve risk vs. reward.

    The meter Evendale posted is very nice, and with FRAP can pretty much be a full-detailed parser/log for any raid event, one day showing exactly which type of dmg is being done at which time frame. The One Ring. If I were a raid designer I may have to start putting in floor tiles that will sense player movement and introduce a lot of random dice to move my mobs so that mob movement, numbers, and type of damages will be less predictable.

    Oh, watch out for that guillotine that suddenly fell and killed the main healer. What will the raid do now? Do ya have backup healers? I hope so... says the devious GM.

    Perhaps the dev will even employ Evendale's meter to determine which healer to kill. Surely, the intelligent orc leader will tell his force to slay the hunter doing the most damage first. No matter how much aggro shows on the tank meter, this unfortunate event will take place randomly, just because orcs have a stubborn temperament. (Condolence to the great hunter, who will get extra barter points for this.) Then the raid mechanics will track how many raiders are left, and adjust the mob attack to be a bit weaker, to temporally balance for the missing great hunter for a short time. (Hey, mobs do get tired. ) Each raid will be full of surprises. This kind of quest module should have more re-play value.
    Last edited by SuperSiabra; Jan 31 2011 at 01:44 PM.

  13. #138
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Straight to the point please. No one wants to read walls of text. Thanks.
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  14. #139
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSiabra View Post
    There are a lot of "should's" in your post, and most of your concept are based on the formula for mmorpg raids set by EQ. What I feel strange is with all this maximizing, you won't even attempt a PuG due to its "futility". Imho, what we need for fun are more innovative raids that will allow people to show many different styles, and to use their secondary skills in an invasion.

    In addition, "end game" raids are really created to be time-sinks, an offshoot of the subscription-based business model. Down the road if mmorpgs march down the road of smaller quest pack sales in the store, there won't be as much need to create that type of gated raids.

    Players like Nymph who would rather not worry about gear may be able to purchase raid-entry gear (that will come with the raid quest package in the store, but useless elsewhere) and hop right to a raid for fun. Furthermore, in order to balance the reward for a raid force that accepts lesser geared players, Turbine may decide to calculate the total stats in a raid force's gears, and award higher number of barter items for a less-well geared raid force, to achieve risk vs. reward.
    The reason I don't bother with PuGs is because there's no guarantee of player skill or even basic competence, and I don't have enough time to waste screwing around in a group that can't get anything done or keeps wiping. Hauling a PuG through content isn't interesting or fun to me; if it is to you, that's fine, but I don't find it in the least appealing and don't really see how optional DPS meters are going to affect this. You're as likely to get a group that would require them as not, which is mirrored in the chance now that you'll either get a skilled group, or a worthless one. In either case, the solution to not being in a group you don't enjoy is to leave. Given the majority of players in this game now are casuals, I just don't think that PuGs on the whole are going to become more elitist. Kins, yes, PuGs, no - because PuGs are primarily made up of casuals or people who aren't looking for extremely challenging content, which means they don't have to optimize. It just comes back to numbers, and I think arguing that a dps meter will cause PuGs to become elitist is making the argument based on a fraction of the player base's potential reaction. That's ignoring a whole host of other potential UI plugin utilities, and not having played WoW or EQ (just Aion and WoT), I really can't speak specifically to those, but I can think of plenty that probably exist.

    As far as raid gear, I agree and disagree. I don't think anyone should "need" specific gear to enter and try a raid, but I do think that gear should play a major part in the likelihood of succeeding in beating that raid. Ergo, people wouldn't need to RMT buy or grind for armour to try the raid - and utilizing the scaling system we sort-of have in place now, raids for casuals could even be simplified to the point where someone who uses three skills and nothing else, and has world-drop gear could beat it. They just wouldn't get rewards remotely close to what the winners of a max-tier difficulty raid would. Everyone gets included in the content, and the rewards you get are directly proportional to the time and effort you put into the game.
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  15. #140
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicLemming View Post
    The reason I don't bother with PuGs is because there's no guarantee of player skill or even basic competence, and I don't have enough time to waste screwing around in a group that can't get anything done or keeps wiping.
    It's your choice not to join PuGs. You can continue raiding with your own selected friends.

    As far as raid gear, I agree and disagree. I don't think anyone should "need" specific gear to enter and try a raid, but I do think that gear should play a major part in the likelihood of succeeding in beating that raid. Ergo, people wouldn't need to RMT buy or grind for armour to try the raid
    When raid quests are sold in mini-packages with starting gear in it, it's no different from in the "regular" content we have right now, where you get a package of starting gear.

    Ricardo: The brief of it is the MMORPG raid scene can be much more fun than it is now, and Turbine does have all control. It wouldn't surprise me if in their top-security area things like these are already in the works.

  16. #141
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSiabra View Post
    It's your choice not to join PuGs. You can continue raiding with your own selected friends.
    That's really irrelevant to anything I've said. The argument is that a DPS meter would make PuGs much more elite in allowing specific classes in, and much more elite when it comes to "forcing" specific classes to actually fulfill their roles. I don't think that's true, due to the nature of the majority of the players who make up PuGs. It's not whether I join PuGs or not; it's my refutation to the argument against DPS meters.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSiabra View Post
    When raid quests are sold in mini-packages with starting gear in it, it's no different from in the "regular" content we have right now, where you get a package of starting gear.
    Allowing people to purchase gear via either RMTs or TPs would invalidate this game being a game. This game is an RPG, also, and that means character advancement through playing the game - not paying money to get better gear. If you're going to allow people to purchase gear, why not allow people to pay $15 more and start at level 50, or $30 more and have all the accomplishments (traits and virtues) already finished when that player starts the game?

    RMTs and selling game content in small DLC packages, at least in the MMO world, would invariably drive a lot of people off. If actual subscribers didn't need to deal with small DLC pieces, it would mitigate that somewhat (the Turbine F2P system as it is now), but forcing everyone to purchase DLC via RMT or TP (and I'm not talking full expansions here, simply small-scale DLC like individual "raid packs") would be an asinine move and would schism the RPG aspect from the MMO aspect.

    In which case I'd happily go back to SPRPG like Oblivion, DAO, and Mass Effect.
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  17. #142
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    The best dps meter is easy for the dev's to have at their own disposal.

    With this tool, many old ills in the raid structure can be improved. More examples:

    1) Ever encounter the afk player who takes advantage of the group's effort? The meter will tell the dev who is being afk. An auto boot may happen so the afk player will only get a fraction of the barter reward items, and the Skirmish soldier system will kick in to generate a competent soldier to replace the booted player. The rest of the group will not be punished, even if an electrical outage knocks off half the team, the other half can go on.

    2) Entry-gear places people on even grounds. The dev will have an opportunity to reward the ones who did the most for the group.

    [EDIT note: Bad transition in this post. The examples are NOT based on dps meters. For one, AFK status can not possibly be determined by merely a DPS meter. I was thinking about all sorts of other ideas. You may disregard this post. ]
    Last edited by SuperSiabra; Jan 31 2011 at 11:13 PM.

  18. #143
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Demonic, your latest post is rehashing the stuff we went through pages ago. Did you read I said the entry-gear for a raid module will not be usable outside of a module? Most casual players will go on and have their casual fun. You will go on having fun with your own kinship.

    The difference between Lotro and SPRPG is: In LoTRO there will still be a persistent world. Housing may come into a major improvement in this world; and a huge mansion, a ton of cosmetic weapons, mounts, etc. will be the barter rewards for those who did well in instanced raid modules.

    Some people may have a Letter of Commendation from Aragorn sitting on their mantle.
    Last edited by SuperSiabra; Jan 31 2011 at 02:04 PM.

  19. #144

    Re: Best dps meter available

    Persistant worlds are soooo 1999-2009.

    New MMO's and even some Single Player RPG's are coming into using Dynamic worlds. Guild Wars 2, and Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim (supposedly), for examples.

  20. #145
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Whoa, I can't wait for Elder Scroll V. I think you are right. Basically I was seeing dynamic raids being run with Evendale-type of meters in the background to have surprises. But LoTRO may move to total dynamic world. That, would, rock. Imagine if I stepped on a rock while running in Trollshaw and oops a big bad gang of trolls appear around the corner.

  21. #146
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSiabra View Post
    2) Entry-gear places people on even grounds. The dev will have an opportunity to reward the ones who did the most for the group.
    in a thread of bad ideas, this one has to come close to taking the cake. It's not worth arguing against because there's no way in hades it'd ever be implemented, but do I understand right that you're actually suggesting that the devs use a DPS meter to distribute loot??? wow.
    Lore-mastery - A weekly column discsussing end game lore-master play.

  22. #147
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Nah, not dps meter. But a more complex system of tracking player contribution. It can indeed get too complicated though. One big problem with it is it'll be hard to judge certain classes' contribution. *IF* it can be done, it'll be like having a live gamemaster. I do not believe it will be done. There are just more fun features for less cost in development and implementation.

  23. #148
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSiabra View Post
    Nah, not dps meter. But a more complex system of tracking player contribution. It can indeed get too complicated though. One big problem with it is it'll be hard to judge certain classes' contribution. *IF* it can be done, it'll be like having a live gamemaster. I do not believe it will be done. There are just more fun features for less cost in development and implementation.
    But that's the point, you can't measure that stuff. How is any game system going to measure what a player's overall contribution was? Stuff like which hunter is on poison removal, which champ is on clobber duty, which player had to run around more because they were the recipient of some random landscape or eye effect, which DPS was assigned trash adds to kill which increased their DPS while the other had to remain on the higher-armour boss, who was assigned to kite certain mobs and did they do it correctly, which player suffered more because the loremaster didn't keep the stun up on them but did on another, which player kept their correct buffs/debuffs up on the right targets without over casting them... this stuff is simply un-measurable. Leave it up to the players to regulate whether others in the group are doing their job correctly, any game system that tried to do that would be unavoidably terrible.
    Lore-mastery - A weekly column discsussing end game lore-master play.

  24. #149
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Actually what you just said is exactly why it will not be worth the development time. It'll require a super intelligent system to track all that. It CAN be done, but not easily.

  25. #150
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSiabra View Post
    2) Entry-gear places people on even grounds. The dev will have an opportunity to reward the ones who did the most for the group.

    There can be only 1 response to this:

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