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  1. #101
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Treerat View Post

    But I imagine you will ignore this logic like you have all the others. It seems your mind is fixated on the rose-tinted scenario of your fantasy and anything said to the contrary is wrong and must be ignored. You make me sick. At least in WoW most of the elitists who mouthed this sort of stuff also had the courage to admit to being such. You hide behind the facade of being mature yet spout the same pious lies.
    You need a hug man. Relax sheesh
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/042080000000fd8b5/signature.png]Grampsith[/charsig]

  2. #102
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Macfeast View Post
    If your predictions about the direction the game is going in are true, then it appears my playstyle won't stay the same then. The meters are already here, fine, I guess I'll have to deal with that. Just don't try to tell my playstyle will stay the same, because it won't; As soon as I start avoiding PuGs because they require me to use a meter, my playstyle has changed. There is no way around that. The game has catered to my playstyle for as long as I have played, and I was merely hoping it would stay that way.

    Those in support in the meters...are you ok with the rest of the community suffering, as long as you get the tools you want? Are you willing to risk that the horror stories from other games pops up here as well, just so you can bring out a little extra dps in your raid? Please, answer me that. It is the last I will ask of you on the topic.
    From what I've seen over a couple years in LotRO, most PuG groups aren't going to come close to "requiring" members use a DPS meter. Yes, some of the hardcore raid groups may require them - but the reason there isn't elitism, it's to try and reduce the chances of one person wiping an entire raid and wasting hours of work. It's the same logic that goes into kins requiring specific gear, traits, damage-types, etc - all to increase the success rate of the raid. I just can't see PuGs, even those running 6-mans like FG or the like, "requiring" them.

    I'm all for DPS meters being available as supported game plug-ins. I don't think they should be an inherent, "starts with" piece of the UI, but I don't see any reason not to allow them, or even to argue against them. It seems like a lot of people are building a whole lot of hyperbole into a very simple mechanic. I don't see how it's going to cause "community suffering" in any way at all. Sure, you'll have the occasional griefer because of it, and yeah, some hardcore raid kins will require them for raids - but those groups are few and far between, players are under no obligation to be in a kin that doesn't support their play style, and most of those kins already have gating requirements before players can run raids.

    The LotRO community as a whole is a very relaxed and casual player base, and in my opinion, most of the fear-mongering going on in this thread about the "evils of DPS meters" is nothing but that - irrational fear-mongering based on the potential reactions of a very small group of people in the game.
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  3. #103
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Treerat View Post
    I can't tell you half the times I've seen two people in the same raid, running the same version of the same dps meter, have had very different results at the end of the fight. Simply put, anything we make will be affected by latency and a host of other factors that make their accuracy and precision dubious. That is why for any serious comparison the only tool since the days of EQ has been to parse logs that include time stamps. And even that doesn't include all the possible situations where a meter simply does not tell the whole story. What about the hunter who stops dpsing to fear or peel an add of a healer? How about the champ who traits for less dps than the "optimum" build but has greater ability to function as an off-tank? Do we punish captains who melee bosses to get the extra on-defeat events from critical hits with Pressing Attack/ Devastating Blow because they happened to be put into the group with the ranged dps and aren't hitting as many with their Rally Cry? How would a meter measure the contribution of the hunter who runs into melee to cover an incapacitated champions interrupt but did so at the price of quite a bit of damage? These are all things that are hallmarks of people who are going beyond the expected, yet actually HURT their position on the meter. And don't try the "well people will see it" bull - I've seen these sort of things does now and they player get chewed out for not doing their "role". Even something as simple as an unexpected afk or disconnect by a healer can have severe effects; a dps who sees that should be shifting to a "take as little damage as possible until we can compensate" mindset, but they end up doing less damage than the the "I r Conan! I Use Enduring Bloodrage! RAAAR!" who is being a major burden on the remaining active healers.
    You're making a very large assumption here - that the only thing groups will be basing player usefulness on is dps output. That's not true now, that wouldn't be true with dps meters in the game, and any person who has gotten to the end of the game and actually done some group work with various classes should understand that. Captains are buff classes - no one expects them to have stellar dps output. Hunters have to go into Endurance quite often, cutting their dps output back. Champs have to off-tank or spam clobber, which basically removes them as a dps class altogether. The thing is, if your group is coordinated and intelligent, than everyone is going to understand that raw dps output is really a useless number. Your argument on this assumption comes down to everyone being completely ignorant of the mechanics going on in a fight, which is patently false.

    There are fights that almost mandate a specific dps class being unable to do a whole lot of damage - the SG lighting boss as an example for melee classes. The group leader should be experienced enough to know the mechanics of the fight and what each class is going to be doing, and use something like a dps meter as nothing than useful but unnecessary information.
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  4. #104
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Imho, the key to how these meters will impact the community is content difficulty. As long as content is designed for non-users, there will be viability for non-user kinships and PKGs. We may even end up with 2 LLF channels, one for "Meter LLF", the other for "Non-Meter LLf", heh.

  5. #105

    Re: Best dps meter available

    What about this idea. Be able to Report the Raiding Pugs or Kinship leader if they say a Script is mandatory or you can't Join a Raid or fellowship. To me if Freedom of the user to have his own choice. Not the choice of the stupid Pug. I think that will stop the Pug abuse that we see in World of warcraft. Have a option to report them.

    Player 1 I want to join a raid or fellowship

    Player 2 You can join but you have to have use this and this Script.

    Player 1 Reported Pug.

    Or like my one Post about showing a kinship that I left. That Posting Requirements buffbar. To me should be able to report and Shutdown that kinship.


    Yes I know I am going to hear Pug worshippers saying that unfair idea.


    But it also Unfair to have Pugs Force you into something you dont want to use.

  6. #106

    Thumbs down Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicLemming View Post
    From what I've seen over a couple years in LotRO, most PuG groups aren't going to come close to "requiring" members use a DPS meter. Yes, some of the hardcore raid groups may require them - but the reason there isn't elitism, it's to try and reduce the chances of one person wiping an entire raid and wasting hours of work. It's the same logic that goes into kins requiring specific gear, traits, damage-types, etc - all to increase the success rate of the raid. I just can't see PuGs, even those running 6-mans like FG or the like, "requiring" them.

    I'm all for DPS meters being available as supported game plug-ins. I don't think they should be an inherent, "starts with" piece of the UI, but I don't see any reason not to allow them, or even to argue against them. It seems like a lot of people are building a whole lot of hyperbole into a very simple mechanic. I don't see how it's going to cause "community suffering" in any way at all. Sure, you'll have the occasional griefer because of it, and yeah, some hardcore raid kins will require them for raids - but those groups are few and far between, players are under no obligation to be in a kin that doesn't support their play style, and most of those kins already have gating requirements before players can run raids.

    The LotRO community as a whole is a very relaxed and casual player base, and in my opinion, most of the fear-mongering going on in this thread about the "evils of DPS meters" is nothing but that - irrational fear-mongering based on the potential reactions of a very small group of people in the game.
    Ah but there is grounds for that "fear-mongering" which you so dismiss. How many times have people said on these forums that they will only group with kinmates and friends? That alone says that some people refuse to accept any margin for failure. Or how about all the groups who insist that a level 30 can't be effective at all in GA even when if the character in question is an alt geared better than the other 5 members who has done GA earlier?

    This "fear-mongering" you keep trying to pass off as baseless is the result of many people having seen this happen before, noticing that the same circumstances that let it establish itself in other games are happening here, but this time they're trying to kill the hydra now before it gets large enough to cause real problems. Sadly we're seeing the same tired arguments brought up in support of dps meters too. Every Single Thing you people have said was said in WoW when the first meters were being released as beta tests. Now given that the community in this game has no more resistance to being abusive than WoWs, name ONE actual reason why the rest of us should assume things will turn out differently?.... I'm waiting.

    Of course I doubt any of this is penetrating the "but meters are good!" population. They seem to all be off the same type; incapable of accepting other points of view as valid so instead they come up with tangential arguments to try to confuse the issue and raise an emotional response. I entirely expect one of them is eagerly waiting to click the "report post" button over this post because I had the audacity to point out that they are not the guys in white hats that they believe themselves to be. One truth about all humans - when exposed to an unpleasant truth about themselves, no matter the reason, they WILL lash out to destroy whatever is confronting them by any means necessary.

  7. #107

    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSiabra View Post
    My pally liked Decursive because it got rid of one of the most gawd-awful chores in the whole history of mmorpg, imho. The joy of that chore was akin to filing papers into a file cabinet, something so mechanical and repetitive that it would make me tear my hair out. Let alone pay to do it in a game.

    It's for the same reason I hate running raids with repetitive performances of the same script. If someone can write a macro to do it, it means the combat has too little fun, but is only a mindless chore.



    It's not a matter of confidence at all, but rather a matter of seeing things like the wise druid (as someone said earlier in this thread) who switched to healing being kicked out over it. The feeling of injustice when seeing these things. I don't play a game to put myself into a dismayed mood. I'm paying to have a good time.

    Now, if we had raids where Frodo-like players are comfortable to join, it will be much more fun. For one, they will act in the most unpredictable ways. The "leet" players, if they truly have confidence in themselves, will challenge themselves in how to counteract a Frodo's mistakes in the raid. They will never know a fixed strat. That's real challenge.
    Meters aren't going to be the thing that decides if Pylons like Frodo are taken along in the raid. Friendly people are bottom line... but the best thing Turbine can do, if they want to prevent meters from becoming a negative thing is don't develop fights with a DPS race based mechanic.

    When you don't have DPS race based mechanics, you can have whatever for dps and still do fine, then that "if the mob died, everyone did fine DPS" attitude works. When you have DPS race based mechanics, if you wipe, you can't say "OUR" dps wasn't good, because out of 12 people there can be 1 or 2 that are dead weight and not reaching their potential, and that 1 or 2 people can make the difference between getting it done and wiping. If you have DPS race bosses, then you'll have wipes due to slow dps, and that's when you need to start analyzing who's pulling their weight and who's not. Every other situation besides that.. faster dps is nice, but not necessary, and DPS meters aren't important, and the information they provide is not valuable for determining the worth of someone being in the group.

  8. #108
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    One of my kinmates - an experienced player who's been in the game since closed beta, who thinks on his feet, and who has a lot of experience with several classes - was summarily booted without discussion from a group about to run a Moria instance because ONE of his virtues was a 9 and not a 10.

    Does this sort of thing happen a lot? From what I can see, no...but it does happen, and it would be foolish to pretend that people won't abuse it to grief people they don't like or wave the epeen. I don't think it qualifies as "fear-mongering" to be concerned about these things. They will happen. Not saying that alone should eliminate them from the game, just saying it will be a fact of life in the game.
    solien
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  9. #109

    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Treerat View Post
    But I imagine you will ignore this logic like you have all the others. It seems your mind is fixated on the rose-tinted scenario of your fantasy and anything said to the contrary is wrong and must be ignored. You make me sick. At least in WoW most of the elitists who mouthed this sort of stuff also had the courage to admit to being such. You hide behind the facade of being mature yet spout the same pious lies.
    You see, when you make something like a personal attack like this, you completely destroy the rest of your argument. Don't do that. Ad hominem doesn't work, it also runs the risk of getting the topic locked if you can't show that you can argue like adults and be civil.

  10. #110
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Treerat View Post
    Ah but there is grounds for that "fear-mongering" which you so dismiss. How many times have people said on these forums that they will only group with kinmates and friends? That alone says that some people refuse to accept any margin for failure. Or how about all the groups who insist that a level 30 can't be effective at all in GA even when if the character in question is an alt geared better than the other 5 members who has done GA earlier?
    I'm just going to respond to this bit, because I think it's the core of the debate - I don't see any problem with people grouping and refusing to accept any margin of failure. No one is forcing you to group with those people, and if you do wind up in a group that later says, "Hey, um, you need to run a dps meter or we're going to boot you", leave and find a different group. It's no different from a good player leaving a group of bad players because they're incompetent.

    To make a rebuttal to your umbrella portrayal of pro-dps-meter people, it seems like everyone against them assumes that there should never be anything barring them from ever joining a group. One guy earlier said he thinks a kin requiring a basic plugin to be used is grounds for terminating that kinship. Really? Is the general consensus on your side that a group that requires capped virtues should be reported as...as...as...not nice players? If someone wants to join a SG run and has nothing but junk world drops and hasn't done a bit of work on their virtues or class traits, the leader of the group shouldn't be allowed to say they can't join?

    Because that's the argument you're making - that the other members of a group shouldn't be allowed to deny entry to another prospective member, even if every other member of the group agrees that a player needs to meet certain criteria to be allowed to join. Plugins, capped virtues, specific gear, it all comes back to the same thing - that you don't want to allow people to be denied joining any group they want, regardless of any other factors.
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  11. #111
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Devildoc View Post
    Meters aren't going to be the thing that decides if Pylons like Frodo are taken along in the raid. Friendly people are bottom line... but the best thing Turbine can do, if they want to prevent meters from becoming a negative thing is don't develop fights with a DPS race based mechanic.

    When you don't have DPS race based mechanics, you can have whatever for dps and still do fine, then that "if the mob died, everyone did fine DPS" attitude works. When you have DPS race based mechanics, if you wipe, you can't say "OUR" dps wasn't good, because out of 12 people there can be 1 or 2 that are dead weight and not reaching their potential, and that 1 or 2 people can make the difference between getting it done and wiping. If you have DPS race bosses, then you'll have wipes due to slow dps, and that's when you need to start analyzing who's pulling their weight and who's not. Every other situation besides that.. faster dps is nice, but not necessary, and DPS meters aren't important, and the information they provide is not valuable for determining the worth of someone being in the group.
    Well said. I do hope Turbine will tune content to avoid needing the meters.

    In addition: Maybe Turbine can consider building more tools for people to meet up with others who share their viewpoint. The Meter LLF and Non-Meter LLF channels may be a start. If possible, it may even be cool to have a group/raid leader able to set a flag on whether meters are allowed in the group/raid, and the lotro client will automatically disable meters when the flag is set to "non-usage". The difficulty there may be distinguishing meters from other valued UI Lua plug-ins.

    A successful mmorpg will always keep a good eye toward mass-customization. The game is trying to entertain millions of people, and will always need to deal with different interest groups and provide proper channels to direct player traffic.

  12. #112
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Reading this thread had the result of the main reason I don't want this stupid meter in game dawning on me.

    I take enough orders in real life. I don't want to given an order in game that I am required to have something that is not part of the basic game.

    That's what made WoW a chore instead of fun, being told that I had to have such and such add on.

    I play to have fun, not to be given orders from people. I don't mean being a tank and being told to take on this add or boss by the fellowship leader. That's different.

    I'm talking about "Nymph, you need this add on" or "Nymph, your dps is too low." Forget it. If LOTRO goes this direction I'll be 100% solo.

    I'm already looking to the end of radiance gear. That's just as bad as an add on. UGH.

    I'm the type of casual player that people rant about on these forums. I want to be able to jump in a pug without worrying about gear or some kind of meter. As long as I have my potions I'm good to go.

    And one more thing. This game is almost 4 years old and we've gotten along just fine without dps meters.

    I've noticed in these pro-dps meter threads that the people wanting them disregard the fact that a lot of people have used the meters in the past, have had experience with them, and don't want them here.

    People like me outnumber you guys by a long shot and Turbine knows where the most money comes from.
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  13. #113
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    And one more thing. This game is almost 4 years old and we've gotten along just fine without dps meters.
    We've had dps meters in this game for over 2 years now. We've gotten along just fine with them. Relax. They've been here for quite a while and you haven't even noticed.
    Last edited by scottybene; Jan 29 2011 at 11:05 PM.
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  14. #114
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by scottybene View Post
    We've had dps meters in this game for over 2 years now. We've gotten along just fine with them. Relax. They've been here for quite a while and you haven't even noticed.
    This.

    I asked on GLFF tonight, a couple times, about dps/threat meters. It was *Crickets* One time only three ppl responded.

    Now, for comparison I asked some random question about Wardens tanking (or not tanking) it like clock work opened up a 10m QQ fest in glff

    The vast majority of ppl dont have a clue whats available.
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  15. #115
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    I'm talking about "Nymph, you need this add on" or "Nymph, your dps is too low." Forget it. If LOTRO goes this direction I'll be 100% solo.

    I'm already looking to the end of radiance gear. That's just as bad as an add on. UGH.

    I'm the type of casual player that people rant about on these forums. I want to be able to jump in a pug without worrying about gear or some kind of meter. As long as I have my potions I'm good to go.
    That sort of thing already exists in the game - groups requiring specific virtues, decent gear, etc. Correct class trait selection for the content at hand (as an example for a champ, traited for AoE for HoC, ST for BG, etc). Acting like the addition of DPS meters is suddenly going to cause a spate of group leaders being much more picky about member selection is a fallacy. Raids have, do, and will continue to institute that sort of thing (gear, virtues, traits, skill), regardless of any plug-ins people use; outside of raids, you're still going to have the overwhelming majority of casual players who don't know how to install a plugin, let alone gate PuG member selection on it.

    Which leads to the second point - as you yourself acknowledged, the game is comprised mostly of casual players, and Turbine has unarguably been trending towards making casual players more happy than it has been worried about making raiders/challenge players happy. The population being that skewed, how can the argument be made that DPS meters are somehow going to turn all the casual players into wanna-be hardcore elitists who mandate everyone use a DPS meter for all content? Hell, it seems like most PuGs don't care who tanks, heals, or kills, as long as they finish the quest or beat the instance and get what they were after.
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  16. #116
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Re: Demonic and Nymph's conversation on player population impact on Turbine's action on DPS meter

    With FTP attracting some WoW players, Turbine may be in the process of attempting to keep those players with add-ons, and newer raids. Why did Turbine finally allow LUA? Population makeup can change into more WoW-styled with even half of the the 1 million new accounts. (It's every mmorpg's dream to reach WoW player population. As we speak the potential harm of DPS meter, a Turbine staff may be chuckling thinking it'll be nice if they had WoW's problems. ) I am waiting with interest to see what will replace radiance gear. If it shows sign of encouraging raider elitism, it will indicate something.

    I actually like this forum's community. It beats all other mmorpgs forum communities. One reason I am in Lotro atm. But keep in mind most casual players do not post nor visit the game forum. In WoW I only stopped by to get the vital info. In EQ I thought I was the only one exiting quietly, then to return 6 months later to find that out of my friend list of 100 only 5 remained active in game. Was in shock that we all left quietly at about the same time. This means we can have a population reduction here overnight as well, and without any notice on the forum, if DPS LUA meter becomes a problem. The launch of SWTOR may be a tricky time. Turbine probably does not want to rock the boat at that time. Or is attempting to build up to face that time.
    Last edited by SuperSiabra; Jan 30 2011 at 01:07 AM.

  17. #117
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSiabra View Post
    Re: Demonic and Nymph's conversation on player population impact on Turbine's action on DPS meter

    With FTP attracting some WoW players, Turbine may be in the process of attempting to keep those players with add-ons, and newer raids. Why did Turbine finally allow LUA? Population makeup can change. (It's every mmorpg's dream to reach WoW player population. As we speak the potential harm of DPS meter, a Turbine staff may be chuckling thinking it'll be nice if they had WoW's problems. ) I am waiting with interest to see what will replace radiance gear. If it shows sign of encouraging raider elitism, it will indicate something.

    I actually like this forum's community. It beats all other mmorpgs forum communities. One reason I am in Lotro atm. But keep in mind most casual players do not post nor visit the game forum. In WoW I only stopped by to get the vital info. In EQ I thought I was the only one exiting quietly, then to return 6 months later to find that out of my friend list of 100 only 5 remained active in game. Was in shock that we all left quietly at about the same time. This means we can have a population reduction here overnight as well, and without any notice on the forum, if DPS LUA meter becomes a problem. The launch of SWTOR may be a tricky time. Turbine probably does not want to rock the boat at that time. Or is attempting to build up to face that time.
    I think LUA came about because it had either been in the works and just hadn't received enough priority time to get finished up (to beta) earlier, or the devs looked at the game and realised the UI and lack of plugin options would be an issue for a lot of f2p players who came from other games.

    I don't think we'll see anything replace radiance - going back to the Rift standard, where there was no hard gate, you simply died without accomplishing anything if you/your gear wasn't good enough - and I think that'd make both the raiders and the casual crowd happy. Different argument, though.

    I really don't think a DPS meter is going to be enough to cause a massive outflux of people - there's always the "no content quitters" (and 75% of them just whine and never leave), and I recall a huge forum sentiment over a year ago that if Turbine didn't integrate mounted combat and integrate it now, dammit, just about everyone was going to quit. I come back months later, the game is doing better than ever, and still no sign of mounted combat. Similarly, I don't think most people know, or care, about the possible inclusion of DPS meters in the game, and while I can see some value in them (as more of a management skill in big fights, rather than a group-gating instrument), I don't think they're going to be nearly as popular or important as a lot of the anti-plugin people think.
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  18. #118
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicLemming View Post
    I think LUA came about because it had either been in the works and just hadn't received enough priority time to get finished up (to beta) earlier, or the devs looked at the game and realised the UI and lack of plugin options would be an issue for a lot of f2p players who came from other games.

    I don't think we'll see anything replace radiance - going back to the Rift standard, where there was no hard gate, you simply died without accomplishing anything if you/your gear wasn't good enough - and I think that'd make both the raiders and the casual crowd happy. Different argument, though.

    I really don't think a DPS meter is going to be enough to cause a massive outflux of people - there's always the "no content quitters" (and 75% of them just whine and never leave), and I recall a huge forum sentiment over a year ago that if Turbine didn't integrate mounted combat and integrate it now, dammit, just about everyone was going to quit. I come back months later, the game is doing better than ever, and still no sign of mounted combat. Similarly, I don't think most people know, or care, about the possible inclusion of DPS meters in the game, and while I can see some value in them (as more of a management skill in big fights, rather than a group-gating instrument), I don't think they're going to be nearly as popular or important as a lot of the anti-plugin people think.
    Sorry I edited my post to clarify a point before seeing your post replying to my original post. The point I didn't make very clear was: With Turbine hoping to please F2P players with plug-in options, and there are 1 million new accounts with the change to F2P, even if half of those 1 million may be staying, our player base may end up changing.

    I kind of have faith in Turbine's vision of this game though. The dev team seems to stick to a good style.

    Atm I see no change. Every player I do PKG with has been polite, pleasant. Every group is a win. I am simply hoping this perfection will stay. So I am staying at level 42. Lol.. j/k, sigh, will have to move on higher as long as I hunt.

  19. #119
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSiabra View Post
    (It's every mmorpg's dream to reach WoW player population. ...
    No, it's not just every MMORPG's dream, having WoW's subscriber base is *every* businesses dream, in the entire world.
    As a level 1 burglar, Bilbo got a pony when he joined the Smaug The Dragon raid. Then he asked for leadership, looted the chest, assigned himself the 1st age Arkenstone and mailed it to an alt (Bilbo's a VIP so can mail from anywhere). They did some PvMP and an Epic Battle, then he apologized and gave the Arkenstone back. He kept the pony.

  20. #120
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Banaticus View Post
    No, it's not just every MMORPG's dream, having WoW's subscriber base is *every* businesses dream, in the entire world.
    To further this, no major developer of MMOs believe they can exceed the numbers behind WoW. What you see as hyped "WoW-killers" are done so by those who have little in the way to recognize the exception, rather than the rule, that WoW is (ie - Publishers/investors who are interested in recouping their investments) in MMOs.

    WoW's numbers, by almost all accounts, are an unobtainable pipe-dream, and the more people that realize this, the better the MMO genre can expand.

    As for DPS meters, there's enough elitism that I've personally witnessed over "how to play your class" that I don't need yet another nail in the coffin of personal enjoyment.
    Give a guy a pound of gold...he'll complain about how heavy it is.
    Enmity of Forum Trolls: 106/5000 Of the Egaads clan


  21. #121
    Join Date
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicLemming View Post
    You're making a very large assumption here - that the only thing groups will be basing player usefulness on is dps output. ... Captains are buff classes - no one expects them to have stellar dps output.
    Nobody is going to expect a captain to top the DPS charts, but the DPS classes can and will pressure that captain to make sure that they are. A quick trip to a FFXI Red Mage or Bard forum will make that clear enough; both jobs offer a lot of utility, but they've been pigeonholed into very limited roles to maximize the effectiveness of the melee jobs. Nobody likes being a buffbot solely for somebody else's enjoyment.
    Last edited by CWood; Jan 30 2011 at 05:00 AM.
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  22. #122
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Sammeek View Post
    What about this idea. Be able to Report the Raiding Pugs or Kinship leader if they say a Script is mandatory or you can't Join a Raid or fellowship. To me if Freedom of the user to have his own choice. Not the choice of the stupid Pug. I think that will stop the Pug abuse that we see in World of warcraft. Have a option to report them.

    Player 1 I want to join a raid or fellowship

    Player 2 You can join but you have to have use this and this Script.

    Player 1 Reported Pug.

    Or like my one Post about showing a kinship that I left. That Posting Requirements buffbar. To me should be able to report and Shutdown that kinship.


    Yes I know I am going to hear Pug worshippers saying that unfair idea.


    But it also Unfair to have Pugs Force you into something you dont want to use.
    No one is forcing you to use anything, you don't like how a pug/kin/whatever else does things don't join or leave. "OMG Buffbars is ruining my immersion" well I'm sorry but in a raid I'd rather have your immersion ruined than watch you wipe 11 other people over and over again because you keep missing vital debuffs. Raiding kins will always have requirements because raiding(for now at least) isn't designed for the under geared ultra casuals it's still about doing things as efficiently as possible. You want to ban/censor everything you don't like go start your own dictatorship but don't sit here whining "They're making me do stuff".
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  23. #123
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by CWood View Post
    Nobody is going to expect a captain to top the DPS charts, but the DPS classes can and will pressure that captain to make sure that they are. A quick trip to a FFXI Red Mage or Bard forum will make that clear enough; both jobs offer a lot of utility, but they've been pigeonholed into very limited roles to maximize the effectiveness of the melee jobs. Nobody likes being a buffbot solely for somebody else's enjoyment.
    Except that captains are pressured to pump out healing because their DPS is supposedly that inferior....

    That's going to be a fun experience if these tools ever see widespread usage.... getting booted from a group because I wasn't spending enough time pumping out heals because (Valar forbid) I felt that the extra healing was pointless since the primary healer was doing an excellent job, and contributed to DPS instead of pointlessly healing people (that is, when not buffing). Or, the more likely one, getting a healer kicked from the group because I got a little to Rally Cry spam happy (sloppy mass AE heal spamming vs well placed single target healing), and actually beat out the primary healer with healing, and then asked to main heal. At at least 4.2k per spam (6 * 700), ignoring the HoT.... I don't doubt that it's theoretically possible, especially in swarm situations.

    The hybrid classes are going to be hit the hardest with the "diagnostic tools" because they don't have an easily quantifiable role, and what a hybrid needs to do from fight to fight varies tremendously. This truer with PUGs than it is with kin groups, because in the PUGs, it's like hitting a moving target, and trying to get a group through successfully is half the fun (at least to me.... hey I like a challenge). Kin groups, on the other hand, things go smoothly, so you know what to expect, and what is expected of you. There's a world of difference in how each uses the "diagnostic tools".
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Jan 30 2011 at 07:54 AM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  24. #124

    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynchpin13 View Post
    No one is forcing you to use anything, you don't like how a pug/kin/whatever else does things don't join or leave. "OMG Buffbars is ruining my immersion" well I'm sorry but in a raid I'd rather have your immersion ruined than watch you wipe 11 other people over and over again because you keep missing vital debuffs. Raiding kins will always have requirements because raiding(for now at least) isn't designed for the under geared ultra casuals it's still about doing things as efficiently as possible. You want to ban/censor everything you don't like go start your own dictatorship but don't sit here whining "They're making me do stuff".
    Funny All that info already there. Under the users Name and Most of the time shows on Screen. I dont need a Buffbar or meters to tell me this and I dont need a pug to tell me this. But I been playing for as long as lotro been out. I have been useing all this time to Learn Each Class and every skill of each class. I also watch How other People play and I ask questions.

    I think you dont like the idea of Freedom of how someone else plays and you want to force your play styles on anyone and everyone. I believe everyone should be given a Fair Chance. If the Raid Failed. Everyone talk about what went wrong and solve the issues. I beleave the Rights belongs to the User not to a Pug.

    For most of the Raids I have been we have Won. When there a Raid that Fails like what your talking about 12 People Die. It tends to be a Connection Lost from a player, Someone Lag or Brining in new players into a Raid. At one time we where all Newbies.

    Who cares if you beaten Raid Boss 30 seconds faster then me. To me what counts is when we beat a Raid and everyone lives.
    Last edited by Sammeek; Jan 30 2011 at 08:56 AM.

  25. #125
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    2,427

    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSiabra View Post
    Sorry I edited my post to clarify a point before seeing your post replying to my original post. The point I didn't make very clear was: With Turbine hoping to please F2P players with plug-in options, and there are 1 million new accounts with the change to F2P, even if half of those 1 million may be staying, our player base may end up changing.

    I kind of have faith in Turbine's vision of this game though. The dev team seems to stick to a good style.

    Atm I see no change. Every player I do PKG with has been polite, pleasant. Every group is a win. I am simply hoping this perfection will stay. So I am staying at level 42. Lol.. j/k, sigh, will have to move on higher as long as I hunt.
    I think you'd have to correlate LUA release with F2P as "working as intended" - it may have been something that just got rolled into that update to real-game beta test it, or maybe to parse numbers to see how many game clients are running that (assuming that's something Turbine can see server-side). Even if LUA was intended to be released with F2P specifically for those players, DPS meters make up only a fraction of the UI utilities out there in other games. We probably will see plugins being used by more players as the system develops, but I don't think it's going to result in anything massively game-changing. Some groups may require specific plugins, but that'll more than likely just be the hardcore "server first!" groups, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWood View Post
    Nobody is going to expect a captain to top the DPS charts, but the DPS classes can and will pressure that captain to make sure that they are. A quick trip to a FFXI Red Mage or Bard forum will make that clear enough; both jobs offer a lot of utility, but they've been pigeonholed into very limited roles to maximize the effectiveness of the melee jobs. Nobody likes being a buffbot solely for somebody else's enjoyment.
    But that's the thing - the role of a captain is to buff and heal, do a little dps when they can, and emergency off-tank. Even ignoring all of the DPS meter arguments, if a captain is in a raid and is doing DPS instead of buffing, he's going to get called on it. It would be like a champ only using his bow, or a LM spamming staff-strike. Raids typically call for very specific utilization of specific classes fulfilling their traditional roles, and I don't see UI additions changing that at all.

    In a small group, will the captain be free to do other stuff, as long as he keeps some buffs going? Sure. Same for a minstrel who wants to run WS, or a champ who wants to tank - as long as their primary job (buffs, heals, etc) isn't being ignored to the point of causing problems in the group, classes are pretty free to do what they want, use weird builds, etc. It just comes down to the group leader knowing the content and what needs done, and the individual players being competent enough to do their own thing while still fulfilling their class role.

    I'm not really so much in favor of DPS meters, as I am against outright banning them, or other UI mods. It'd be useful if I wanted to check different skill rotations on my champ without using a parser, or even grabbing another champ or two, each with different builds, skill rotations, etc, and beating up a boss to see who does the best, to try and optimize my DPS output. As far as using something like that in a raid, if a group is having problems killing something that they shouldn't be having issues with, and they think someone is slacking off in DPS, sure; other than that, I don't see it as being that much of a useful utility. I'd much prefer to see an aggro meter - especially when grouped with hunters who refuse to drop Strength and keep pulling boss aggro.

    /walloftext
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