I'm all for DPS meters being available as supported game plug-ins. I don't think they should be an inherent, "starts with" piece of the UI, but I don't see any reason not to allow them, or even to argue against them. It seems like a lot of people are building a whole lot of hyperbole into a very simple mechanic. I don't see how it's going to cause "community suffering" in any way at all. Sure, you'll have the occasional griefer because of it, and yeah, some hardcore raid kins will require them for raids - but those groups are few and far between, players are under no obligation to be in a kin that doesn't support their play style, and most of those kins already have gating requirements before players can run raids.
The LotRO community as a whole is a very relaxed and casual player base, and in my opinion, most of the fear-mongering going on in this thread about the "evils of DPS meters" is nothing but that - irrational fear-mongering based on the potential reactions of a very small group of people in the game.
There are fights that almost mandate a specific dps class being unable to do a whole lot of damage - the SG lighting boss as an example for melee classes. The group leader should be experienced enough to know the mechanics of the fight and what each class is going to be doing, and use something like a dps meter as nothing than useful but unnecessary information.
Imho, the key to how these meters will impact the community is content difficulty. As long as content is designed for non-users, there will be viability for non-user kinships and PKGs. We may even end up with 2 LLF channels, one for "Meter LLF", the other for "Non-Meter LLf", heh.
What about this idea. Be able to Report the Raiding Pugs or Kinship leader if they say a Script is mandatory or you can't Join a Raid or fellowship. To me if Freedom of the user to have his own choice. Not the choice of the stupid Pug. I think that will stop the Pug abuse that we see in World of warcraft. Have a option to report them.
Player 1 I want to join a raid or fellowship
Player 2 You can join but you have to have use this and this Script.
Player 1 Reported Pug.
Or like my one Post about showing a kinship that I left. That Posting Requirements buffbar. To me should be able to report and Shutdown that kinship.
Yes I know I am going to hear Pug worshippers saying that unfair idea.
But it also Unfair to have Pugs Force you into something you dont want to use.
This "fear-mongering" you keep trying to pass off as baseless is the result of many people having seen this happen before, noticing that the same circumstances that let it establish itself in other games are happening here, but this time they're trying to kill the hydra now before it gets large enough to cause real problems. Sadly we're seeing the same tired arguments brought up in support of dps meters too. Every Single Thing you people have said was said in WoW when the first meters were being released as beta tests. Now given that the community in this game has no more resistance to being abusive than WoWs, name ONE actual reason why the rest of us should assume things will turn out differently?.... I'm waiting.
Of course I doubt any of this is penetrating the "but meters are good!" population. They seem to all be off the same type; incapable of accepting other points of view as valid so instead they come up with tangential arguments to try to confuse the issue and raise an emotional response. I entirely expect one of them is eagerly waiting to click the "report post" button over this post because I had the audacity to point out that they are not the guys in white hats that they believe themselves to be. One truth about all humans - when exposed to an unpleasant truth about themselves, no matter the reason, they WILL lash out to destroy whatever is confronting them by any means necessary.
When you don't have DPS race based mechanics, you can have whatever for dps and still do fine, then that "if the mob died, everyone did fine DPS" attitude works. When you have DPS race based mechanics, if you wipe, you can't say "OUR" dps wasn't good, because out of 12 people there can be 1 or 2 that are dead weight and not reaching their potential, and that 1 or 2 people can make the difference between getting it done and wiping. If you have DPS race bosses, then you'll have wipes due to slow dps, and that's when you need to start analyzing who's pulling their weight and who's not. Every other situation besides that.. faster dps is nice, but not necessary, and DPS meters aren't important, and the information they provide is not valuable for determining the worth of someone being in the group.
One of my kinmates - an experienced player who's been in the game since closed beta, who thinks on his feet, and who has a lot of experience with several classes - was summarily booted without discussion from a group about to run a Moria instance because ONE of his virtues was a 9 and not a 10.
Does this sort of thing happen a lot? From what I can see, no...but it does happen, and it would be foolish to pretend that people won't abuse it to grief people they don't like or wave the epeen. I don't think it qualifies as "fear-mongering" to be concerned about these things. They will happen. Not saying that alone should eliminate them from the game, just saying it will be a fact of life in the game.
armor-plated since SoA alpha 3
arkenstone: hall of fire & into the west
To make a rebuttal to your umbrella portrayal of pro-dps-meter people, it seems like everyone against them assumes that there should never be anything barring them from ever joining a group. One guy earlier said he thinks a kin requiring a basic plugin to be used is grounds for terminating that kinship. Really? Is the general consensus on your side that a group that requires capped virtues should be reported as...as...as...not nice players? If someone wants to join a SG run and has nothing but junk world drops and hasn't done a bit of work on their virtues or class traits, the leader of the group shouldn't be allowed to say they can't join?
Because that's the argument you're making - that the other members of a group shouldn't be allowed to deny entry to another prospective member, even if every other member of the group agrees that a player needs to meet certain criteria to be allowed to join. Plugins, capped virtues, specific gear, it all comes back to the same thing - that you don't want to allow people to be denied joining any group they want, regardless of any other factors.
In addition: Maybe Turbine can consider building more tools for people to meet up with others who share their viewpoint. The Meter LLF and Non-Meter LLF channels may be a start. If possible, it may even be cool to have a group/raid leader able to set a flag on whether meters are allowed in the group/raid, and the lotro client will automatically disable meters when the flag is set to "non-usage". The difficulty there may be distinguishing meters from other valued UI Lua plug-ins.
A successful mmorpg will always keep a good eye toward mass-customization. The game is trying to entertain millions of people, and will always need to deal with different interest groups and provide proper channels to direct player traffic.
Reading this thread had the result of the main reason I don't want this stupid meter in game dawning on me.
I take enough orders in real life. I don't want to given an order in game that I am required to have something that is not part of the basic game.
That's what made WoW a chore instead of fun, being told that I had to have such and such add on.
I play to have fun, not to be given orders from people. I don't mean being a tank and being told to take on this add or boss by the fellowship leader. That's different.
I'm talking about "Nymph, you need this add on" or "Nymph, your dps is too low." Forget it. If LOTRO goes this direction I'll be 100% solo.
I'm already looking to the end of radiance gear. That's just as bad as an add on. UGH.
I'm the type of casual player that people rant about on these forums. I want to be able to jump in a pug without worrying about gear or some kind of meter. As long as I have my potions I'm good to go.
And one more thing. This game is almost 4 years old and we've gotten along just fine without dps meters.
I've noticed in these pro-dps meter threads that the people wanting them disregard the fact that a lot of people have used the meters in the past, have had experience with them, and don't want them here.
People like me outnumber you guys by a long shot and Turbine knows where the most money comes from.
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I asked on GLFF tonight, a couple times, about dps/threat meters. It was *Crickets* One time only three ppl responded.
Now, for comparison I asked some random question about Wardens tanking (or not tanking) it like clock work opened up a 10m QQ fest in glff
The vast majority of ppl dont have a clue whats available.
Which leads to the second point - as you yourself acknowledged, the game is comprised mostly of casual players, and Turbine has unarguably been trending towards making casual players more happy than it has been worried about making raiders/challenge players happy. The population being that skewed, how can the argument be made that DPS meters are somehow going to turn all the casual players into wanna-be hardcore elitists who mandate everyone use a DPS meter for all content? Hell, it seems like most PuGs don't care who tanks, heals, or kills, as long as they finish the quest or beat the instance and get what they were after.
Re: Demonic and Nymph's conversation on player population impact on Turbine's action on DPS meter
With FTP attracting some WoW players, Turbine may be in the process of attempting to keep those players with add-ons, and newer raids. Why did Turbine finally allow LUA? Population makeup can change into more WoW-styled with even half of the the 1 million new accounts. (It's every mmorpg's dream to reach WoW player population. As we speak the potential harm of DPS meter, a Turbine staff may be chuckling thinking it'll be nice if they had WoW's problems. ) I am waiting with interest to see what will replace radiance gear. If it shows sign of encouraging raider elitism, it will indicate something.
I actually like this forum's community. It beats all other mmorpgs forum communities. One reason I am in Lotro atm. But keep in mind most casual players do not post nor visit the game forum. In WoW I only stopped by to get the vital info. In EQ I thought I was the only one exiting quietly, then to return 6 months later to find that out of my friend list of 100 only 5 remained active in game. Was in shock that we all left quietly at about the same time. This means we can have a population reduction here overnight as well, and without any notice on the forum, if DPS LUA meter becomes a problem. The launch of SWTOR may be a tricky time. Turbine probably does not want to rock the boat at that time. Or is attempting to build up to face that time.
Last edited by SuperSiabra; Jan 30 2011 at 01:07 AM.
I don't think we'll see anything replace radiance - going back to the Rift standard, where there was no hard gate, you simply died without accomplishing anything if you/your gear wasn't good enough - and I think that'd make both the raiders and the casual crowd happy. Different argument, though.
I really don't think a DPS meter is going to be enough to cause a massive outflux of people - there's always the "no content quitters" (and 75% of them just whine and never leave), and I recall a huge forum sentiment over a year ago that if Turbine didn't integrate mounted combat and integrate it now, dammit, just about everyone was going to quit. I come back months later, the game is doing better than ever, and still no sign of mounted combat. Similarly, I don't think most people know, or care, about the possible inclusion of DPS meters in the game, and while I can see some value in them (as more of a management skill in big fights, rather than a group-gating instrument), I don't think they're going to be nearly as popular or important as a lot of the anti-plugin people think.
I kind of have faith in Turbine's vision of this game though. The dev team seems to stick to a good style.
Atm I see no change. Every player I do PKG with has been polite, pleasant. Every group is a win. I am simply hoping this perfection will stay. So I am staying at level 42. Lol.. j/k, sigh, will have to move on higher as long as I hunt.
As a level 1 burglar, Bilbo got a pony when he joined the Smaug The Dragon raid. Then he asked for leadership, looted the chest, assigned himself the 1st age Arkenstone and mailed it to an alt (Bilbo's a VIP so can mail from anywhere). They did some PvMP and an Epic Battle, then he apologized and gave the Arkenstone back. He kept the pony.
WoW's numbers, by almost all accounts, are an unobtainable pipe-dream, and the more people that realize this, the better the MMO genre can expand.
As for DPS meters, there's enough elitism that I've personally witnessed over "how to play your class" that I don't need yet another nail in the coffin of personal enjoyment.
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Last edited by CWood; Jan 30 2011 at 05:00 AM.
That's going to be a fun experience if these tools ever see widespread usage.... getting booted from a group because I wasn't spending enough time pumping out heals because (Valar forbid) I felt that the extra healing was pointless since the primary healer was doing an excellent job, and contributed to DPS instead of pointlessly healing people (that is, when not buffing). Or, the more likely one, getting a healer kicked from the group because I got a little to Rally Cry spam happy (sloppy mass AE heal spamming vs well placed single target healing), and actually beat out the primary healer with healing, and then asked to main heal. At at least 4.2k per spam (6 * 700), ignoring the HoT.... I don't doubt that it's theoretically possible, especially in swarm situations.
The hybrid classes are going to be hit the hardest with the "diagnostic tools" because they don't have an easily quantifiable role, and what a hybrid needs to do from fight to fight varies tremendously. This truer with PUGs than it is with kin groups, because in the PUGs, it's like hitting a moving target, and trying to get a group through successfully is half the fun (at least to me.... hey I like a challenge). Kin groups, on the other hand, things go smoothly, so you know what to expect, and what is expected of you. There's a world of difference in how each uses the "diagnostic tools".
Last edited by Almagnus1; Jan 30 2011 at 07:54 AM.
Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir
Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West
I think you dont like the idea of Freedom of how someone else plays and you want to force your play styles on anyone and everyone. I believe everyone should be given a Fair Chance. If the Raid Failed. Everyone talk about what went wrong and solve the issues. I beleave the Rights belongs to the User not to a Pug.
For most of the Raids I have been we have Won. When there a Raid that Fails like what your talking about 12 People Die. It tends to be a Connection Lost from a player, Someone Lag or Brining in new players into a Raid. At one time we where all Newbies.
Who cares if you beaten Raid Boss 30 seconds faster then me. To me what counts is when we beat a Raid and everyone lives.
Last edited by Sammeek; Jan 30 2011 at 08:56 AM.
In a small group, will the captain be free to do other stuff, as long as he keeps some buffs going? Sure. Same for a minstrel who wants to run WS, or a champ who wants to tank - as long as their primary job (buffs, heals, etc) isn't being ignored to the point of causing problems in the group, classes are pretty free to do what they want, use weird builds, etc. It just comes down to the group leader knowing the content and what needs done, and the individual players being competent enough to do their own thing while still fulfilling their class role.
I'm not really so much in favor of DPS meters, as I am against outright banning them, or other UI mods. It'd be useful if I wanted to check different skill rotations on my champ without using a parser, or even grabbing another champ or two, each with different builds, skill rotations, etc, and beating up a boss to see who does the best, to try and optimize my DPS output. As far as using something like that in a raid, if a group is having problems killing something that they shouldn't be having issues with, and they think someone is slacking off in DPS, sure; other than that, I don't see it as being that much of a useful utility. I'd much prefer to see an aggro meter - especially when grouped with hunters who refuse to drop Strength and keep pulling boss aggro.
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