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  1. #76
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Devildoc View Post
    But there IS a lot of fear mongering.

    Fear mongering out of pure ignorance to boot.

    the moment someone mentioned IP people began panicking and throwing out all sorts of conspiracy theories and horror stories about getting hacked cause they gave out their IP address. Only a few people actually bothered to look at even the readmes and realize the only person giving out an IP address would be the server starter.

    How was that NOT fear mongering?
    That is true, some more research into that could have been helpful. In this case, the use of "fear-mongerer" might be valid.

    Personally, that's not the kind of "fear-mongering" I'm talking about (mentioned it earlier), however. It's how it was used in the last thread I'm talking about (which, I suspect, SaintBass is hinting towards); Shouting it at anyone who brings up concerns, or comparisons to other games, as if it renders the other persons post moot and makes the problem go away.

    For all the actual fear-mongering taking place, there are also many valid points and comparisons. Don't lump all of that under "fear-mongering."
    Last edited by Macfeast; Jan 28 2011 at 08:49 AM.
    Graindim Dwarrowfare, Lord of Baruk Khazad;
    Host and guide of the Pilgrimage to Khazad-Dûm.

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  2. #77
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by VEEDOG View Post
    It's a good tool, folks, but I can see some confusion.

    The IP address hyper-ventilating can stop. It is intended to be used among a group of friends or kinship that trust each other. I wouldn't give my IP to someone I didn't know either. The purpose of that is so you can see how your DPS measures up to others in your fellowship or raid.

    This program does not make instances easier except in that it can help you maximize your DPS.

    It is also a good tool for running new content as it shows incoming damage and the type of damage you receive, so you can tailor your resists a little better.

    If you don't have friends to group with, don't download the program and don't give out your IP.

    The road to H E double HOCKY STICKS is paved with good intentions.

    Agreed there is nothing wrong with a DPS Meter or its use. Where the rub comes in is when the possession and use and data sharing becomes mandatory to be party to a group, raid or event. Under these conditions the DPS Meter becomes a tool for discrimination and is to be resisted with all means available at every instance of it raising its ugly head.

    So, if you want to monitor your DPS, PLEASE DO.

    DISCLAIMER: Nothing against the above poster, this post was chosen for the points presented in it.
    Ujest - 100 Lore-master, Opun - 76 Warden, plus alts and mules
    Pipeweed and Ale, Arkenstone (formerly Friends of Frodo Vilya)

  3. #78
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Macfeast View Post
    You're avoiding the issue here. We know your kin won't have it as a requirement. That has been made clear many a time already (especially in the 60+ page thread we had recently).

    No, the issue is how the rest of the playerbase will use it, not just a select few. This is something that will affect the whole playerbase, and we need to take into account how everyone will use it. With that in mind, the comparisons to other games are extremly relevant; You can't render those comparisons moot simply by shouting "Fear-mongerer!" How PuGs, and non-hardcore-raiding kins, will use them is just as relevant as how the hardcore raiders will use them; I have yet to see an answer that addresses the fears of what will happen to the two first groups. I can't speak for everyone, but that is why I argue against it; It is something that could take away from my fun, I have nothing to gain from it, and there are so far no good suggestions on how to prevent any bad effects that could happen.

    Who knows, maybe the bad stuff won't happen here, maybe our community is better that that. However, can you really blame players for not wanting to take that risk in the first place, when there is little to no gain for them?

    I want to be able to play the game the same way I have done for two years now. I'll support meters if they can be implemented without it affecting the way I play the game. That is, to me, the big issue here, and I think it would be best if we stopped avoiding it.
    You say I'm avoiding the issue, I say your making one.
    I cannot control what Kinship #1923 does on a random server. I can only control what I as raid leader for my kin does.

    Further, I can point people interested in DPS meters to the 'good' ones, I can try to provide accurate information about that addon and try to minimize the hyperbole and fear-mongering. Though to be fair, the last two, I'm not going to bend over backwards for these ppl.

    I mean, look at where this thread went to in just a couple short pages. DPS meter > IP > Hacking.

    Its a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandolf_TheOld View Post
    I use plugins, but not the DPS Meter. Don't need it, I have the simplest and most effective DPS Meter in any game. Actually, I use this meter in all MMOs that I play. It is simple, effective, provided by the game, takes up like resources and screen real estate and it is very easy to understand.

    My DPS Meter? Why, if the mob is dead and I'm not, my DPS was effective.
    So auto attacking a mob with nothing but a Frying pan for a whole 7 dps is just as effective as blowing it up with one Heartseeker, so long as the mob dies and you dont?

    Or being in a Raid, your just auto attacking the whole time. Your group clears. Was your DPS effective? Were you a valuable part of that groups success?

    Thats what I thought.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/042080000000fd8b5/signature.png]Grampsith[/charsig]

  4. #79
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandolf_TheOld View Post
    Agreed there is nothing wrong with a DPS Meter or its use. Where the rub comes in is when the possession and use and data sharing becomes mandatory to be party to a group, raid or event. Under these conditions the DPS Meter becomes a tool for discrimination and is to be resisted with all means available at every instance of it raising its ugly head.
    This is what a lot of us don't want to see in this game....

    Harassment, in all forms, is not acceptable. Certain plugin types enable certain people to harass others easier than other plugin types.

    That's the crux of the entire argument, really.

    PS: Actually, a lot of those that would grief with the plugins remind me of a principle mentioned by a Penny Arcade comic posted on 3/19/2004.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  5. #80
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Grampsaz View Post
    You say I'm avoiding the issue, I say your making one.
    I cannot control what Kinship #1923 does on a random server. I can only control what I as raid leader for my kin does.
    It is true that you can only control your own actions, and that you have no control over how others will use it. That is perfectly fine. What is not fine, is trying to justify a community-wide addition, based on how you, and your player-circle, will use them, and acting like the potential for abuse is just something to brush aside.

    Sammeek pointed out that abuse of plugins have already begun in Lotro. Not a single reply has been specifically directed to that, instead you (you as in the supporters, not you alone) kept going on about how the hardcore raiders will never abuse plugins. That is, to me, a textbook example of avoiding the issue. I'm not making an issue, it is already here, and you are avoiding it.

    The issue isn't, and has never been, how hardcore raiders will use it. The issue is how the rest of the community will use it; Saying "I won't abuse it" isn't going to solve anything. Find a solution to stop the potential for abuse that works across the whole community, and then we might actually get somewhere. As it is now, all we know is that you won't abuse it, and we have known it for some time now. That does nothing to address the concerns of those outside of your player-circle.

    I'm not saying you can't support the addons. You're allowed to your opinion. No, what I'm saying, is that when someone points to the bad stuff, saying "I won't do that", or shouting "fear-mongerer", is hardly a valid response, because that does nothing to address the issue.

    I will ask you this. What does the players that want nothing to do with meters or plugins have to gain? Is there any reason for them to want to risk their playstyle being affected in a negative way? Why should players just stand by idle, while a tool that can potentially ruin their style of play is being implemented, and only a few will actually benefit from it?
    Last edited by Macfeast; Jan 28 2011 at 05:15 PM.
    Graindim Dwarrowfare, Lord of Baruk Khazad;
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  6. #81
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Macfeast View Post
    It is true that you can only control your own actions, and that you have no control over how others will use it. That is perfectly fine. What is not fine, is trying to justify a community-wide addition, based on how you, and your player-circle, will use them, and acting like the potential for abuse is just something to brush aside.

    Sammeek pointed out that abuse of plugins have already begun in Lotro. Not a single reply has been specifically directed to that, instead you (you as in the supporters, not you alone) kept going on about how the hardcore raiders will never abuse plugins. That is, to me, a textbook example of avoiding the issue. I'm not making an issue, it is already here, and you are avoiding it.

    The issue isn't, and has never been, how hardcore raiders will use it. The issue is how the rest of the community will use it; Saying "I won't abuse it" isn't going to solve anything. Find a solution to stop the potential for abuse that works across the whole community, and then we might actually get somewhere. As it is now, all we know is that you won't abuse it, and we have known it for some time now. That does nothing to address the concerns of those outside of your player-circle.

    I'm not saying you can't support the addons. You're allowed to your opinion. No, what I'm saying, is that when someone points to the bad stuff, saying "I won't do that", or shouting "fear-mongerer", is hardly a valid response, because that does nothing to address the issue.

    I will ask you this. What does the players that want nothing to do with meters or plugins have to gain? Is there any reason for them to want to risk their playstyle being affected in a negative way? Why should players just stand by idle, while a tool that can potentially ruin their style of play is being implemented, and only a few will actually benefit from it?
    I replied specifically to that guys post. Once in this thread, but several times in the other threads. He has that post saved in his clipboard or something, when ever a dps meter thread pops up he's sure to post that same thing each time.

    Look, I've never denied that some ppl are going to use these tools in ways that some dont agree with. But thats all a matter of taste and preference. My usage of dps meters will vary from yours and the guy above you and so on.
    My whole point is that these tools aren't going away, but its up to each person to find a solution that works for them.
    When a raid/kinship leader 'forces' these tools upon someone, your either a) willing/able to adapt to the use of these tools, or b) unwilling/unable to adapt to the use of these tools. Thats on you. Each person to make the decision for themselves.

    Look, in buddies example of the 'wrong' way, thats wrong to him, wrong to you and hell, even the wrong way in my opinion to introduce add-ons to kinmates. BUT, it obviously worked for others in that kin. Buddy rage quit. Maybe there were others, but maybe there wasn't.
    My point is, those that choose to use the heavy handed approach for these tools will eventually filter out those that have no interest and attract those that do.

    These types of plugins aren't going anywhere. They are going to get better and better as time goes on, they are going to be more and more common as time goes on.
    They are here to stay.

    Only thing left is a threat meter. Which is coming. I've got a 500 TP bet with Kafar over a threat meter being in game in the next year, I think he stated two years, but I'm pretty confident in my one year estimation.

    But those will work the same way. Lotro supported Plug-in with an external application to 'parse' the info and send it to the LUA script. There are several things holding a threat meter back from being in game now and I dont see those two or three core issues getting resolved anytime soon. But it will happen.

    Unless of course they open up additional API functions.


    In regards to your question at the end..I rambled above srry..

    So what your saying is Mob rules. The majority dont want dps/threat/buffbars type addons in game so you should all band together, dont sit idly by and allow this to happen?
    Look, you can voice your opinion till your blue in the face, but they are not going anywhere. Period.
    Now, there are things you can do in a constructive way and things 'supporters' can do constructively to make sure the community at large is informed and not pressured to use or not to use certain types of plugins.

    But thats really where the line has to be drawn IMO. As long as the those for and against are constructive. Just let the epeen hot heads go off into a corner and be l33t with themselves, I'm fine with that. As long as the hard-core NO DPS/THREAT/Buffbars guys can do the same, go off into your corner quietly and not incite fear.
    The community is strong, for the most part. There will be some that are hurt along the way I'm sure, but they will move on and be better off in the end.

    IMO if either the supporters or those against, cant be constructive then go into your corner. If either side can be chill, then thats what makes this community great.


    Now go down load the damn dps meter!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/042080000000fd8b5/signature.png]Grampsith[/charsig]

  7. #82

    Thumbs down Re: Best dps meter available

    I've used DPS meters in WoW. I was even one of those peoples who at times would shoot a few thousand arrows at a target dummy, do some basic number crunching of the results, then send the parses to someone else who would add it to their mass of data for Blizzard or someone at Elitist Jerks to go over. And I stand by my opinion that as soon as anyone besides myself can read the data that meter complies the community in this game will be exposed as no better than WoWs.

    People like DevilDoc believe this community won't end up like WoWs. I state now that this community is in no way "better" than WoW's when it comes to resisting the temptation to mistreat members whose only "crime" is to not follow the "accepted wisdom". Everything I saw there I see here; abuse of other players who won't create their character as a cookie-cutter of the "best spec", people who don't have rank 10 in all their virtues being run out of groups even when their relevant stats are already well over the required amount, incredible levels of whining about "you ran away" and "no fair using so and so" in PvMP. People forming groups not out of tanks, heals, dps, plus any required/ useful abilities (debuffs, CC, etc) but insisting on only taking the "best tanking class" the "best dps class" and the "best healing class" plus a captain to provide said "best" classes with buffs. Given that I'm also seeing this on a smaller server and from players who were here before the F2P change (so it isn't immigrants from WoW), why should I believe that this community can handle something as open to abuse and misuse as a dps meter that shows other players positions?

    Adding an easily usable (and easily misused) DPS meter that lets other players measure someone else dps (or tps or hps) will have exactly the same effect here as it did in WoW. A minority will use it for personal betterment, the majority will look at it and laugh no matter which results it gives, and a small but highly vocal and immensely arrogant group will use it to create what is essentially false data to back up their assertions that their completely untenable position is in fact correct. Just look at the OP - on the hunter forums he's constantly screams that hunters have always done more dps than RKs, even when Turbines own results, parses from other players, and the majority opinion and actions say the opposite. Sadly, thanks to being incredibly vocal it is the third group, with the hangers-on from the first, who will set the tone for the effects of these addons. In addition the positive effects of this sort of plugin are grossly inflated over the reality. The reality is that people who want to improve their in-game performance are already doing so by reading their class forum, asking others of their class, and examining their performance after groups. The people who really NEED to learn are the same people who will brush aside anything they won't want to hear and continue to play as they have.

    So in short, even discounting that these "hybrid" meters (such an apt term) are a ticking time bomb just waiting for someone with a malicious turn of mind to use as a vehicle into an otherwise-secured computer, I can simply see NO reason to risk giving players something that can so easily be used as an excuse for outright harassment of other players. And right there lies the whole core of the matter from Turbine's point of view - having a dps meter is unlikely to keep customers in the game, but having it is almost assured to end up driving some players away due to the actions of other players. Given the choice between no increase in revenue or losing revenue, I am fairly sure that Turbine will choose to favor the position that keeps revenue.

  8. #83
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Grampsaz View Post
    Look, I've never denied that some ppl are going to use these tools in ways that some dont agree with. But thats all a matter of taste and preference. My usage of dps meters will vary from yours and the guy above you and so on.
    My whole point is that these tools aren't going away, but its up to each person to find a solution that works for them.
    When a raid/kinship leader 'forces' these tools upon someone, your either a) willing/able to adapt to the use of these tools, or b) unwilling/unable to adapt to the use of these tools. Thats on you. Each person to make the decision for themselves.
    Right there is your argument why Turbine should NOT do anything to "aid and abet" DPS meters in LoTRO.

    Now go down load the damn dps meter!
    Thanks you...but NO.

    --W. H. Heydt

    Old Used Programmer

  9. #84
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    LotroLCD supports tracking skirmish pets, I don't know about the other ones.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rouven View Post
    I wrote a long text here and then I felt that it wouldn't really add anything, so in short:

    Naturally this topic raises emotions and thus people chime in.


    I'll definitely give it a go once I am at max level for a while to get a feeling what works. I doubt I will be able to attend raids really - it's more for myself.

    Btw, does the DPS meter show your own skirmish soldier?

    Always kudos for anyone who is able and willing to create and share any addons, thanks for that.

    In regards to the debuffing - it's a pain in general and I would rather have an in-game solution. It would not destroy my immersion if I am clearly told that my character is affected by something and should feel funny - so I can react. Could be an obvious on-going sound as well for that matter (not knowing about those two "eye" effects that you guys were talking about).

  10. #85
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Grampsaz View Post
    My whole point is that these tools aren't going away, but its up to each person to find a solution that works for them.
    When a raid/kinship leader 'forces' these tools upon someone, your either a) willing/able to adapt to the use of these tools, or b) unwilling/unable to adapt to the use of these tools. Thats on you. Each person to make the decision for themselves.
    Why must it be that way? Why does it have to come to a point where people need to make a decision? Why does it have to get to the point where people may have to change the way they play?
    The point I'm trying to make, is that people should be able to play the same way they have for soon-to-be four years now. I don't want it to get to the point where I have to quit PuGing because they start demanding plugins. I don't want it to get to the point where my kin are changing the way they usually do kinruns, for what in my eyes is the worse, and where my only option is to accept it, or quit. I want the game to remain as it is, and for my playstyle to remain the same. My fear is, simply put, that the meters are going to change how I play the game. I don't want that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grampsaz View Post
    These types of plugins aren't going anywhere. They are going to get better and better as time goes on, they are going to be more and more common as time goes on.
    They are here to stay.

    Only thing left is a threat meter. Which is coming. I've got a 500 TP bet with Kafar over a threat meter being in game in the next year, I think he stated two years, but I'm pretty confident in my one year estimation.

    But those will work the same way. Lotro supported Plug-in with an external application to 'parse' the info and send it to the LUA script. There are several things holding a threat meter back from being in game now and I dont see those two or three core issues getting resolved anytime soon. But it will happen.
    That is my fear, and that is why I argue. I hope that maybe by making my voice heard, I could stop that from happening. I can't do that alone, but I can only control my actions; I merely hope that I am not alone in this regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grampsaz View Post
    IMO if either the supporters or those against, cant be constructive then go into your corner. If either side can be chill, then thats what makes this community great.
    Frankly, I have no interest in such a constructive discussion. Why? Because whatever decision we reach here on the forums, and however we decide to handle it in-game, will merely be damage control, it won't solve the problem; The abusers will still abuse them, and I don't think there's any amount of constructive discussion that will change that. I don't want the potential for abuse to enter the game in the first place (sadly, it appears it is too late on that point). I don't want to have to discuss how to repair, or avoid, the damage that could be done; I don't want the damage to be done in the first place. Is there anything we can say on the forums that can prevent the potential for abuse community-wide? If there is, please say it.

    All I want is to be able to enjoy the game the same way I have since I started playing. I don't want to change the way I play because of a tool which I have no interest in. Is that really so wrong? Surely you must see why people are arguing against it; They have nothing to win, but tons to lose.

    Frankly, all I see is "meters are coming, deal with it". Is that really what it has come to? Has it really come to the point where I have to change my way of playing because of a tool that will merely benefit a few?

    (I'm sorry if it seems like I'm cherrypicking from your post now, but this seemed like the best way to get my point across.)
    Last edited by Macfeast; Jan 29 2011 at 12:03 PM.
    Graindim Dwarrowfare, Lord of Baruk Khazad;
    Host and guide of the Pilgrimage to Khazad-Dûm.

    ---


  11. #86
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Well,.. thanks Macfeast, Treerat, and Almagnus, you are reminding me of the early days of people complaining about the gold farmers and how I used to shrug and say, "It's ok by me if some people want to buy gold. I myself won't do it, but it's their choice." Famous last words. In time I did end up seeing a lot of consequences.

    Now I'm thinking more about this issue. Treerat's post about how he used to be one of those guys who submitted test results for the leets to go over, but now hold a different view is very enlightening. I did find the top end raiding in EQ to be one of a few real strategists who would pour over data and plan a strategy while the majority of a raid force are simply following instructions. I remember figuring out the boss's weakness, then planning the most simple movement procedure so that the majority of the players can move in a way that will be very easy. We all know how "idiot proof" a raid strat needs to be for it's best chance of success and least likelihood to fail due to someone's mistake. Therein lies the simple truth: The parser is the One Ring that rules them all. Once we get the parser, we have da powah. We can make thing so easy that anyone can beat the raid.

    Then the next step is watching how the middle tier of raiders who got their great gear for following orders start to feel their own powah. They start to squint at new applicants and cast "Nay! The guy doesn't have the right gear, the right build, the... hey he refused to help my alt last week, saying he had to be afk. NAY!"

    I have to admit to myself I am too easy going at times. As a result, while I was merrily going along being tolerant, a lot of others were upset at the game. I was actually stupidly surprised when the folks who got killed by the gold-farmers economy, one by one, left the game. But when my guild people began acting arrogant, I tried to stem their trend, and ended up with their anger directed at me. Not surprising. When people are feeling powah, they think everyone else is in the wrong.

    Come to think of it, it's been a surprise to me just in this thread how some are saying they left WoW due to the dps meter. Gee, I had left due to it, and thought I was the only one. For me, it simply was not pleasant to watch a dumb players beat their chests on their dps, and ignore what was actually threatening the raid... our cleric was getting beat up left and right! And the warrior is merrily linking his dps meter. Gulp.

    The Ring that rules them all, when landed in a dumb goblin's hand, can have strange results.

    While Gramps and other good leaders have the best intentions, it's hard to control the ramification of this Ring. As a leader, one day even Gramps may have a hard time dealing with drama in their kin, or a much reduced player population. The arrogant leet raiders in EQ are now grabbing any warm bodies they can, partly due to the EQ's raid-centric content. WoW does support casual play, but it became very boring to always solo. I quit PUG in WoW due to wincing every time over dps meter.

    Don't be in shock when players leave left and right once they feel the game has changed from a Middle Earth world to a numbers game.

    How can Turbine cure this?

    1) Ensure the parser will never include output from a player who did not give consent, to keep PUG and PUR viable.
    2) Keep raid content casual friendly to allow PUR to be viable.

    The thrill of power, of having parsers was enticing, but it only took seeing how it was used to indirectly abuse many players for me to realize I wanted little to do with it. When I come to an MMORPG, I like to play with all sorts of people, not just push the limit on parsers. When it comes down to choosing between players and parsers, I will choose players, hands down.

    I am thinking this is Tolkien's LoTRO, and how raids in this particular game should be designed with Frodo in mind. Without a Frodo-like player in the raid, I will not feel like this is LoTRO. It will simply be another WoW, another EQ... Many of us play this game because we prefer its relaxing, spiritual atmosphere over the rest of the games. To stand out in the market place, these qualities are a strong draw for LoTRO. 'Nuff said.
    Last edited by SuperSiabra; Jan 29 2011 at 03:37 PM.

  12. #87
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    The really sad thing with this... Lua scripting is going to suffer because of these DPS meters.

    There's plenty of good things that could be accomplished within Lua scripting that has absolutely nothing to do with any of these so-called analytic tools. The downside, Turbine is probably going to be extremely cautious giving us any more access to certain parts of the UI, and some parts of the UI would be really cool to be able to alter with Lua scripts to draw out more functionality (ex: ever wanted more than 5 tabs on the chat box?), but will probably not happen in the near future.

    Sadly, Turbine is watching these forums, even though they don't respond, and threads like this one is giving Turbine more and more reasons NOT to mess with Lua scripting any further.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  13. #88
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Macfeast View Post
    Why must it be that way? Why does it have to come to a point where people need to make a decision? Why does it have to get to the point where people may have to change the way they play?
    The point I'm trying to make, is that people should be able to play the same way they have for soon-to-be four years now. I don't want it to get to the point where I have to quit PuGing because they start demanding plugins. I don't want it to get to the point where my kin are changing the way they usually do kinruns, for what in my eyes is the worse, and where my only option is to accept it, or quit. I want the game to remain as it is, and for my playstyle to remain the same. My fear is, simply put, that the meters are going to change how I play the game. I don't want that.

    Why? Because the game has changed. Already. It will continue to change and evolve over time and to be honest, there is no amount of arguing you or anyone else can do to prevent this. These meters are not going anywhere.



    That is my fear, and that is why I argue. I hope that maybe by making my voice heard, I could stop that from happening. I can't do that alone, but I can only control my actions; I merely hope that I am not alone in this regard.

    Your not alone. But no matter how many of you argue against these tools, they will stay. For better or for worse. Look, the majority of the player base now is against them. Wouldn't now be the opportune time to remove them? If it doesn't happen now it will never happen. Its not going to happen in a year or two when they are even more common place in game.



    Frankly, I have no interest in such a constructive discussion. Why? Because whatever decision we reach here on the forums, and however we decide to handle it in-game, will merely be damage control, it won't solve the problem; The abusers will still abuse them, and I don't think there's any amount of constructive discussion that will change that. I don't want the potential for abuse to enter the game in the first place (sadly, it appears it is too late on that point). I don't want to have to discuss how to repair, or avoid, the damage that could be done; I don't want the damage to be done in the first place. Is there anything we can say on the forums that can prevent the potential for abuse community-wide? If there is, please say it.

    That doesn't surprise me to be honest. Its funny, those that support often delicate positions in game are more often then not the first to step up and say lets be cool about this. Its the 'Game is fine as is', 'Ruining my immersion', 'Mailboxes in RD', 'RKs ruined the game', those are the ones that seem to be making the biggest fuss out of it. It happens over and over again.
    Its no different this time. With this subject the only ppl making it into an issue are those against it. Those for it, are just chill. We know what their usages are. We know they aren't going anywhere.
    No, like I said before. You cant control anyone else's actions in game. But they are here to stay, so you can either deal with it in a constructive way or not. Its up to you. When you come across a meter in game you can deal with it constructively or not. Its your call.



    All I want is to be able to enjoy the game the same way I have since I started playing. I don't want to change the way I play because of a tool which I have no interest in. Is that really so wrong? Surely you must see why people are arguing against it; They have nothing to win, but tons to lose.

    You can. Just dont use them. If your get into a pug that tells you to use a dps/threat meter drop group. If your in a kin that forces you to use them, leave kin. Start your own kin where you are dead set against them. Nobody is going to cater the game to your personal play style, thats your responsibility.
    But this isn't a win/lose situation. If it were, then you've already lost. DPS meters are in game now, they aren't going away, they will get better and better and they will be more common as time goes on. Threat meters are on their way, one day. Rinse repeat.

    Frankly, all I see is "meters are coming, deal with it". Is that really what it has come to? Has it really come to the point where I have to change my way of playing because of a tool that will merely benefit a few?

    Yes and no to be honest. Thats what its come to. Turbine opened up the door to these meters. They support directly/indirectly these LUA addons and over time further support will be added. So yes, you will at some point have to deal with it.
    No, you dont have to change the way you play the game. If these tools will only benefit a few, then your not likly to run into the situation all that often. But even if its a daily occurrence, you have options. Unfortunately for you, one of those options isn't going to be getting rid of these tools from being in game.


    (I'm sorry if it seems like I'm cherrypicking from your post now, but this seemed like the best way to get my point across.)
    Dont be sorry. I can go all day as long as it stays constructive

    Cherry pick away
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/042080000000fd8b5/signature.png]Grampsith[/charsig]

  14. #89
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    The really sad thing with this... Lua scripting is going to suffer because of these DPS meters.

    There's plenty of good things that could be accomplished within Lua scripting that has absolutely nothing to do with any of these so-called analytic tools. The downside, Turbine is probably going to be extremely cautious giving us any more access to certain parts of the UI, and some parts of the UI would be really cool to be able to alter with Lua scripts to draw out more functionality (ex: ever wanted more than 5 tabs on the chat box?), but will probably not happen in the near future.

    Sadly, Turbine is watching these forums, even though they don't respond, and threads like this one is giving Turbine more and more reasons NOT to mess with Lua scripting any further.
    Agreed. I think you've spoken some of my fears as well.
    Firefoot: Elendale (hunter) Galorlas (champ) Grimlaff (warden) Corny (warg)

  15. #90
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Halania View Post
    DPS meters are a WoW thing, not a LOTRO thing.
    Not really DPS Meters are for e-Penius Awards, thats it.

  16. #91

    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    The really sad thing with this... Lua scripting is going to suffer because of these DPS meters.

    There's plenty of good things that could be accomplished within Lua scripting that has absolutely nothing to do with any of these so-called analytic tools. The downside, Turbine is probably going to be extremely cautious giving us any more access to certain parts of the UI, and some parts of the UI would be really cool to be able to alter with Lua scripts to draw out more functionality (ex: ever wanted more than 5 tabs on the chat box?), but will probably not happen in the near future.

    Sadly, Turbine is watching these forums, even though they don't respond, and threads like this one is giving Turbine more and more reasons NOT to mess with Lua scripting any further.
    We've already seen part of that. Right now no UI-mod can alter the functionality of the built-in quickslot bars (ie make them stance-sensitive, change displayed skill due to proc-effects, etc). That was done expressly to make automating characters as difficult as possible. There are certainly whole books of additions that would do nothing but improve the playtime of users (something to track all the recipes on all your characters, being able to add personal notes to maps, ability to mail multiple items at once, improved frames that make debuff & buff status tracking for 12-24 characters less eye-wrecking, etc) that simply can not be created at this time due to limited access the LUA-experts work under. Yet if Turbine was to open too much code there is the real danger of some players abusing the resulting additions, either to render existing monster abilities moot (think the old "hold down and auto-dispel all debuffs on 40 people" version of Decursive) or to harass players who simply refuse to fit into the mold. The worst part is that once (to borrow a phrase) this "LUA genie" is out of her bottle, there is no putting her back without doing massive damage to the game and playerbase.

    Turbine is in a position much akin to a company that sells medical supplies such as syringes & needles for at-home use. If they simply put the product out for sale with no restrictions, there WILL be people who use that easy access for unlawful purposes (ex. people using & selling narcotics that are taken intravenously). Does the company continue to sell it's product to anyone that pays knowing some of it will be used in a manner that runs contrary to it's intent and suffer the consequences (lawsuits, damage public image, etc)? Or does the company throw up multiple barriers (doctors prescription, background checks, limiting number sold to an individual over a given time, etc) that will make abuse harder but annoy legitimate customers? No matter which decision they make, there are going to be people upset at them. The question for Turbine is which decision leaves them with the greater number of remaining customers. Given the tendency of history to repeat itself when circumstances are close, that decision probably will end up being less access to the code for additions to the UI to avoid the sort of "max dps or get the hell out" scenario that WoW ended up being when I left.
    Last edited by Treerat; Jan 29 2011 at 06:08 PM.

  17. #92
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    If your predictions about the direction the game is going in are true, then it appears my playstyle won't stay the same then. The meters are already here, fine, I guess I'll have to deal with that. Just don't try to tell my playstyle will stay the same, because it won't; As soon as I start avoiding PuGs because they require me to use a meter, my playstyle has changed. There is no way around that. The game has catered to my playstyle for as long as I have played, and I was merely hoping it would stay that way.

    Those in support in the meters...are you ok with the rest of the community suffering, as long as you get the tools you want? Are you willing to risk that the horror stories from other games pops up here as well, just so you can bring out a little extra dps in your raid? Please, answer me that. It is the last I will ask of you on the topic.
    Last edited by Macfeast; Jan 29 2011 at 06:35 PM.
    Graindim Dwarrowfare, Lord of Baruk Khazad;
    Host and guide of the Pilgrimage to Khazad-Dûm.

    ---


  18. #93

    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSiabra View Post
    It's obvious different types of players prefer different amount of details. Pardon the goofy analogy, but this is starting to remind me of the Kinsey scale of sexual orientation where one can go the distance of 0 to 10.

    I had liked my days of grouping and raiding in the early days of EQ when a very kind cleric sometimes fell asleep at his keyboard due to his old age in rl. He was well-beloved because he always organized groups to help people. I also liked my later days of raiding when we poured over parsers to figure out how to achieve maximum dps output. Then I grew bored of the whole maximizing thrill (due to some people acting way too arrogant, rejecting nice applicants left and right, which ended with a dying server.. well all kinds of dying servers on EQ). Now I'm happily back to casual gaming. This whole week I logged in once to Lotro to end up helping a level 34 asking for help on a group quest when I am but 42 after starting the new toon in June! Got 0 exp after dying twice and paying for repairs. I am happy going slow as a snail. So on a Kinsey scale of meters preference, I guess I go from 0 to 10.

    Devildoc likes certain add-ons, but not others.

    The "big question" on where to draw the line.. mm, I think lies in letting everyone do whatever he/she wants on a consensual basis. As long as my dps, heal amount, etc. is private to me when I want it to be private, fine by me for someone else to parse and gloat. Just leave me out of it. *cough

    I hope you guys have fun with the meter, or without. /Cheer
    I guess where I draw the line is that it should be UI, not AI. If it so much as does any action without you putting in input, that's too far down the line. If it "intelligently" targets or chooses the right skill out of a gamut of skills available on that target, that goes across the line. Anything that involves merely displaying information, I'm cool with, though it gets a little dubious when we're talking boss mods that tell you when to move, and where to move.

    Other people's main concerns are that they're afraid other people will judge them on information displayed. IMO, that's weak, on both sides, that #1, someone won't work with you and would kick you rather than working with you to fix the issue, and #2, that people lack the confidence to be transparent and let others see what they're doing. I wouldn't force someone to use a meter, and would still play, and be friends with someone who doesn't, but if someone's that vehement about not using a meter, in the back of my mind, I can't help but think "what are they trying to hide?". They'd on the other hand, be totally cool with addons that would say, automatically take a pot when you get affected by certain debuffs, or click one button while targeting an enemy and it goes through an entire skill rotation of debuffs and dps skills for them. Just as long as those addons can't be used to guage their performance they're perfectly fine with addons that play for them.

  19. #94

    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Macfeast View Post
    It is true that you can only control your own actions, and that you have no control over how others will use it. That is perfectly fine. What is not fine, is trying to justify a community-wide addition, based on how you, and your player-circle, will use them, and acting like the potential for abuse is just something to brush aside.

    Sammeek pointed out that abuse of plugins have already begun in Lotro. Not a single reply has been specifically directed to that, instead you (you as in the supporters, not you alone) kept going on about how the hardcore raiders will never abuse plugins. That is, to me, a textbook example of avoiding the issue. I'm not making an issue, it is already here, and you are avoiding it.

    The issue isn't, and has never been, how hardcore raiders will use it. The issue is how the rest of the community will use it; Saying "I won't abuse it" isn't going to solve anything. Find a solution to stop the potential for abuse that works across the whole community, and then we might actually get somewhere. As it is now, all we know is that you won't abuse it, and we have known it for some time now. That does nothing to address the concerns of those outside of your player-circle.

    I'm not saying you can't support the addons. You're allowed to your opinion. No, what I'm saying, is that when someone points to the bad stuff, saying "I won't do that", or shouting "fear-mongerer", is hardly a valid response, because that does nothing to address the issue.

    I will ask you this. What does the players that want nothing to do with meters or plugins have to gain? Is there any reason for them to want to risk their playstyle being affected in a negative way? Why should players just stand by idle, while a tool that can potentially ruin their style of play is being implemented, and only a few will actually benefit from it?
    By your mentality, the 2nd amendment shouldn't exist because there are some bad people out there that will use guns to commit murder. Since there's people who would use firearms to harm others out there, nobody should have them, right? Lets completely discount the fact that most firearms are used for sporting, home defense, and harmless activities like target shooting at a range or plinking cans out in the woods, or simple collection.

    Lets put the blame on the people misusing the tools, not the tools themselves, okay?

  20. #95
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Macfeast View Post

    Those in support in the meters...are you ok with the rest of the community suffering, as long as you get the tools you want? Are you willing to risk that the horror stories from other games pops up here as well, just so you can bring out a little extra dps in your raid? Please, answer me that. It is the last I will ask of you on the topic.
    Thats a loaded question and you know it.

    Lemme flip it for you. Those against the meters...are you okay with isolating the minority of the community, singling them out, as long as you can control and dictate the features provided by Lotro for the duration of the life of this game?


    To answer your question. Yes. I am. I cant control how meters effect you. I can only control how meters effect me and to a lesser extent, those in my kinship and to a much lesser extent those I have verbal contact with via forums/ingame.

    If meters cause you to not play anymore, I'm sorry for that. I dont want anyone to stop playing for any reason. But, when its all said and done. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/042080000000fd8b5/signature.png]Grampsith[/charsig]

  21. #96
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Devildoc View Post
    I guess where I draw the line is that it should be UI, not AI. If it so much as does any action without you putting in input, that's too far down the line. If it "intelligently" targets or chooses the right skill out of a gamut of skills available on that target, that goes across the line.
    My pally liked Decursive because it got rid of one of the most gawd-awful chores in the whole history of mmorpg, imho. The joy of that chore was akin to filing papers into a file cabinet, something so mechanical and repetitive that it would make me tear my hair out. Let alone pay to do it in a game.

    It's for the same reason I hate running raids with repetitive performances of the same script. If someone can write a macro to do it, it means the combat has too little fun, but is only a mindless chore.

    Other people's main concerns are that they're afraid other people will judge them on information displayed. IMO, that's weak, on both sides, that #1, someone won't work with you and would kick you rather than working with you to fix the issue, and #2, that people lack the confidence to be transparent and let others see what they're doing.
    It's not a matter of confidence at all, but rather a matter of seeing things like the wise druid (as someone said earlier in this thread) who switched to healing being kicked out over it. The feeling of injustice when seeing these things. I don't play a game to put myself into a dismayed mood. I'm paying to have a good time.

    Now, if we had raids where Frodo-like players are comfortable to join, it will be much more fun. For one, they will act in the most unpredictable ways. The "leet" players, if they truly have confidence in themselves, will challenge themselves in how to counteract a Frodo's mistakes in the raid. They will never know a fixed strat. That's real challenge.

  22. #97
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Nah what you are really saying is I want to be selfish and I don't care what other people think. I want to be Big Brother and see your computer if I group with you. Sorry, no, I don't lack confidence in my skill but I also don't allow others to see my computer, period.

  23. #98
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Gramps: The way to be constructive usually involves thinking for the whole. The greater good for the whole is always more important than just our own corner--because in the end it will come crashing back down on us.

    When all the Frodo-players left EQ the fun began to die. There were no more surprises. The best fun I ever had was one night when our little dwarf cleric took a wrong turn and ended up in another zone. It began a 3-hour rescue her corpse adventure that none of us had ever anticipated. During it I witnessed some sheer bravery by a ranger who had thread through red mobs, and the entire group showed strong character in the rescue. This is what invigorated me. Later, she along with many others like her--with kind hearts that propelled them to travel into unknown zones to rez others--were driven away by the leet players who knew every trick to push their dps. Sad history. End of real fun. Only meters and key punching. End of real adventure a la The Lord of The Ring.

  24. #99
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    Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Grampsaz View Post
    To answer your question. Yes. I am. I cant control how meters effect you. I can only control how meters effect me and to a lesser extent, those in my kinship and to a much lesser extent those I have verbal contact with via forums/ingame.
    Thank you for answering. I guess that is where we differ, then; If a particular addition to the game can't be implemented without it running the risk of affecting the majority of the playerbase in a negative way, my personal belief is that such an addition should never make it into the game, despite how responsibly I, and my circle of players, will use it, and despite how useful that addition could be to me. I guess we can only agree to disagree.

    And yes, I know that the tools themselves are not to blame for the actions of those that abuse them. Still, if there is nothing to prevent that group from abusing the tools (which is where it differs from the gun comparison, people run a big risk of being brought to justice for abusing guns), I think the best option is to just deny them the ability to use the tools. It is not an optimal solution, and it will hurt for the ones who actually would use the tools in a responsible manner, but when the potential for abuse is there, what else can you do to prevent it? The needs of the many (the whole community) outweigh the needs of the few (the responsible users of the tools). At least, that's how I think it should be; I find it unfair that the whole community should have to take such a risk for something that only a small part of the community will actually benefit from.

    I don't want to stand in the way of tools that could enchance your enjoyment of the game, I really don't. In a perfect world, you could be given these tools without it having any effect on my enjoyment of the game, and I would not be here arguing. Sadly, this is not a perfect world; Taking away the meters from the ones that will use them responsibly is just an unfortunate side-effect of wanting to keep them out of the hands of the ones that will abuse them.

    I guess only time will tell what will happen; I can only pray that it doesn't go down the path I fear. That said...I'm glad this discussion didn't go down the path where I was called a "fear-mongerer" and my points were completely ignored. We managed to have a good discussion on the topic, and it gave me a lot to think about. For that, you have my thanks.
    Last edited by Macfeast; Jan 29 2011 at 10:59 PM.
    Graindim Dwarrowfare, Lord of Baruk Khazad;
    Host and guide of the Pilgrimage to Khazad-Dûm.

    ---


  25. #100

    Thumbs down Re: Best dps meter available

    Quote Originally Posted by Devildoc View Post
    I guess where I draw the line is that it should be UI, not AI. If it so much as does any action without you putting in input, that's too far down the line. If it "intelligently" targets or chooses the right skill out of a gamut of skills available on that target, that goes across the line. Anything that involves merely displaying information, I'm cool with, though it gets a little dubious when we're talking boss mods that tell you when to move, and where to move.

    Other people's main concerns are that they're afraid other people will judge them on information displayed. IMO, that's weak, on both sides, that #1, someone won't work with you and would kick you rather than working with you to fix the issue, and #2, that people lack the confidence to be transparent and let others see what they're doing. I wouldn't force someone to use a meter, and would still play, and be friends with someone who doesn't, but if someone's that vehement about not using a meter, in the back of my mind, I can't help but think "what are they trying to hide?". They'd on the other hand, be totally cool with addons that would say, automatically take a pot when you get affected by certain debuffs, or click one button while targeting an enemy and it goes through an entire skill rotation of debuffs and dps skills for them. Just as long as those addons can't be used to guage their performance they're perfectly fine with addons that play for them.
    The problem is that people in this game DO refuse to work with others so the fear is justified. It only has to happen once for someone to have absolute proof that the potential exists within the player base for an addon to be abused. Once that potential is established, those players who do not want to deal with the addon have to live in a state of anxiety every time they join a group of people they don't know. All because someone who might or might not have an idea what is actually involved in playing a class has a meter which may or may not be accurate.

    I can't tell you half the times I've seen two people in the same raid, running the same version of the same dps meter, have had very different results at the end of the fight. Simply put, anything we make will be affected by latency and a host of other factors that make their accuracy and precision dubious. That is why for any serious comparison the only tool since the days of EQ has been to parse logs that include time stamps. And even that doesn't include all the possible situations where a meter simply does not tell the whole story. What about the hunter who stops dpsing to fear or peel an add of a healer? How about the champ who traits for less dps than the "optimum" build but has greater ability to function as an off-tank? Do we punish captains who melee bosses to get the extra on-defeat events from critical hits with Pressing Attack/ Devastating Blow because they happened to be put into the group with the ranged dps and aren't hitting as many with their Rally Cry? How would a meter measure the contribution of the hunter who runs into melee to cover an incapacitated champions interrupt but did so at the price of quite a bit of damage? These are all things that are hallmarks of people who are going beyond the expected, yet actually HURT their position on the meter. And don't try the "well people will see it" bull - I've seen these sort of things does now and they player get chewed out for not doing their "role". Even something as simple as an unexpected afk or disconnect by a healer can have severe effects; a dps who sees that should be shifting to a "take as little damage as possible until we can compensate" mindset, but they end up doing less damage than the the "I r Conan! I Use Enduring Bloodrage! RAAAR!" who is being a major burden on the remaining active healers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devildoc View Post
    By your mentality, the 2nd amendment shouldn't exist because there are some bad people out there that will use guns to commit murder. Since there's people who would use firearms to harm others out there, nobody should have them, right? Lets completely discount the fact that most firearms are used for sporting, home defense, and harmless activities like target shooting at a range or plinking cans out in the woods, or simple collection.

    Lets put the blame on the people misusing the tools, not the tools themselves, okay?
    Logically it stands to reason. When children misbehave over a given object, parents are encouraged to take the object away from the children. When they get older, teens who abuse privileges get those privileges revoked (aka. grounded). Even as adults, many professions that require licenses (MDs, DVMs, LVTs, CPAs, pilots, etc) have laws where if someone violates the laws & ethics of their profession that persons license can be suspended or revoked permanently, and getting those licenses can be extremely expensive (to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars just for the chance to test for the license). In the same way if the public can not handle the responsibility that comes with the privilege of owning weapons, it would make sense to revoke that privilege until such time as they can demonstrate the ability to be mature.

    In this case there is clear precedent that establishes that this game has immature players. We also have multiple examples of the items in question (dps meters) being used abusively with little done by the community as a whole to stop that behavior. Given this situation, it would be clearly in the best interest of the majority for this tool to be taken away before it creates the sort problems that can not be undone after the fact.

    But I imagine you will ignore this logic like you have all the others. It seems your mind is fixated on the rose-tinted scenario of your fantasy and anything said to the contrary is wrong and must be ignored. You make me sick. At least in WoW most of the elitists who mouthed this sort of stuff also had the courage to admit to being such. You hide behind the facade of being mature yet spout the same pious lies.
    Last edited by Treerat; Jan 29 2011 at 08:05 PM.

 

 
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