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  1. #1

    eagle vs bog-guardian

    been playing around w/the bog-guardian, seems more effective when the bog is in melee range of the mob in damage, and in flanks. seems like it needs more micromanaging to try and get the bog in melee to do more damage whereas w/the eagle you don't. any thoughts as to eagle or bog, pros and cons?

  2. #2
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    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    The Eagle has a passive ability to auto interrupt, while the Bog Guardian's auto ability is a flank at melee range(The animation is sweeping his arm at the target). The eagle will flank more consistantly than the Lurker but the Lurker has potential to flank like crazy. In groups, I would go with the eagle because it can interrupt bosses and self Rezz you. While the Bog lurker provides FMs and can stay back at safety and range.

    Its mostly just personal preference
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  3. #3

    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    If you are traiting KoA then I would generally go with the lurker. The lurker will survive better than the eagle in general, will do lots more dps and will flank a lot - giving opportunities for self heals and extra dps from staff strike. Bog lurker also has the potential to start conjunctions / fellowship moves.

    A couple of notes to remember;

    1) all pets seem to flank more if you have sign of power: command on the mob they are attacking
    2) all pets flank more if you have them attacking from behind the mob
    3) the bog lurker does flank more often in melee range but is our highest source of single target dps (especially if you are using staff strike on flanks a lot)

    It depends on what you are up to, but I often choose the raven over other pets if I am not traited full KoA.

    Each pet can shine under different circumstances and most content can be done with any pet, so a large part is down to personal preference. Most important thing I think is to adjust your playstyle to optimise whatever pet you decide to use.

    Hope his helps

  4. #4
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    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    I swore by the eagle and thought I'd only go with the lurker for a test drive and then park him again. I couldn't be more wrong, he's amazing. Huge survivability (with noble savage, hardy companion and beast lore he has 4.5k morale atm), really good damage which starts as soon as the mob is aggroed, unlike the eagle which has to fly in, a great flank rate and good group-oriented skills. A lack of an interrupt does hurt a bit but you can work around that with smart use of stuns and using blinding flash to interrupt. For his special abilities, I put the first two on autoattack and the stun/CJ one on hotkey which gives me another (unreliable) stun interrupt option and the ability to try and time CJs in group situations.

    His survivability as an asset simply cannot be overlooked too. In group situations I've used him to offtank archers in moria instances for the duration of fights which he does with no problems at all. His damage, especially if his specials are off cooldown is also really good and can actually allow him to keep aggro off you for a while if you want him to tank.

    Anyway as with all pets, playstyles vary and you may not like, but its definitely worth traiting and playing around with for a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by UnlikelyBeing View Post
    1) all pets seem to flank more if you have sign of power: command on the mob they are attacking
    2) all pets flank more if you have them attacking from behind the mob
    I think these are both unlikely to be true, unless you can back up with statistics and not anecdote. Despite the wording, "flanking" innately has nothing to do with position as far as i can tell (except that a mob may block a forward-facing attack so there is some small difference there) and i can't see why reducing a mob's attack speed would give it a better chance of being flanked.
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  5. #5

    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    I think these are both unlikely to be true, unless you can back up with statistics and not anecdote. Despite the wording, "flanking" innately has nothing to do with position as far as i can tell (except that a mob may block a forward-facing attack so there is some small difference there) and i can't see why reducing a mob's attack speed would give it a better chance of being flanked.

    1) all pets seem to flank more if you have sign of power: command on the mob they are attacking


    I originally noticed this from personal experience and deliberately used the word 'seem' because it feels that way to me - I am not trying to state as fact but as something that appears to be true. However, if you want some supporting theory here goes;

    For each attack the pet does it has a chance of a 'flank'. Sign of Power: Command reduces the parry rating for the mob it is placed on - therefore there is a higher chance that an attack will hit than be parried by the mob. Thus more hits from the bird and more opportunities for a flank.

    2) all pets flank more if you have them attacking from behind the mob


    As above really, I am not referring to any real context of what a flank is, but in game if you are attacking a mob from behind it cannot parry or block the attacks therefore more are going to hit than if you are attacking the mob from the front.

    Now in theory I would expect the above to only increase the flank rate by a little, in practice however I find the effects of these two things to be quite noticeable.

  6. #6
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    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    I think these are both unlikely to be true, unless you can back up with statistics and not anecdote. Despite the wording, "flanking" innately has nothing to do with position as far as i can tell (except that a mob may block a forward-facing attack so there is some small difference there) and i can't see why reducing a mob's attack speed would give it a better chance of being flanked.
    Sign of Power: Command reduces the mobs Parry Rating. And mobs can't parry or block attacks done from behind. So, not really straightforward, but you have more chance of flanks like that. You can flank from all positions, but the more decrease your enemy's chance of avoiding an attack, the better; Specially since most pet's are one/two levels below enemies, if you are fighting white con mobs.

    When i'm fighting single mobs (tank n flanker) i usually turn them around so that my pet can whack freely at their backs.
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  7. #7
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    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    One bonus with the Bog Guardian is that you can use it to pull. You focus on crowd control at the beginning of the battle while it brings mobs toward you and starts to build up aggro on whatever is not locked down. It's very sturdy, and can take a beating.
    In-combat summoning is huge. Granted, you only need to trait the guardian to get it, but traiting the eagle on top of it seems like too much of a trade off. I'd rather have a stronger pet or ents.
    In a 2 or 3-man skirmish/instance, it's also nice when it fires off the occasional fellowship maneuver.
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  8. #8
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    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    For me it's the eagle. The bog lurker is cool, but I almost never use him unless I'm sparing champs these days. With raids you have to trait yellow and in the moors dps is king. That pretty much leaves 6-mans, 3-mans, and skirmishes. I find that CC is rarely necessary especially with how powerful champions have gotten recently. I just can't give up the extreme dps that MoNF gives you. Seriously, a good LM traited Master of Nature's furry can put out insane amounts of AOE dps. Some tier 3 skirmishes may be made easier with the lurker, but I run just fine on all of them with 3 red and a 20 second mez. As for all other solo content, most of it is insanely easy and MoNF is the obvious choice because of the dps. It gets interesting when it comes to soloing 3-mans, the lurker just might be worth it for the extra flanks against Nemesis and Arch Nemesis mobs.
    Last edited by Bedelian; Jan 24 2011 at 09:12 AM.
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  9. #9
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    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    I'm slowly plinking away at the levels to get to lvl 58. But I have to say, the lurker is one of the main reasons why I was interested in being a LM to begin with. But there's definately other practical reasons why I will most likely use him exclusively once I get him:

    1) He's the only ranged LM pet. This may seem like a little thing, but the fact that he can start attacking immediately, at the same time as me, without needing to skedaddle over towards the mob is HUGE for me. I don't have definitive tests or statistics on this, but logic would dictate that this would lead to an overall higher dps than most other pets, specifically since you never need to wait for the lurker to close the distance. I'm impatient and I want my pet to start attacking immediately. Not only that, but the mob willl have to run towards me and the lurker, instead of me having to cease attacking to run towards it in order to use my melee attacks. All in all, this alone would make me most likely use the lurker instead of any other pet.

    2) All the lurker special skills are an attack of some sort, with a fairly quick CD. I'm the type of person who likes a pet to do damage. I don't want debuffs, heals, rezzes or anything like that. Save that situational nonsense for another class. Since most of the time I don't want to die, I don't need a heal, and I'm debuffing with my own skills, I simply want my pet to deal more damage. Damage is never situational, nor is it ever not wanted. Not to mention the sometimes disregarded advantage to "aggro hopping" between you and your pet. In my experience, with the exception of the well fed, buffed bear, this is only possible with high damage from the pet.

    3) The lurker is the most visually interesting pet, imo. And it is the only pet in an MMO that is truly unique. I've seen demons of all kinds, bears, wolves, birds, eagles, cats, among many others, but never in any game, have I played with a swamp type creature with a bee hive and cat o nine tails sticking out of it's back. I'm from New Orleans, so I started this character based on some of the more interesting folks we have in this diverse area. Did some research on swamp folklore from the area and decided from the start I would name my lurker after the "Rougarou" legends from this area.

    4) I like highly survivable characters. I've gotten into the habbit of playing tanks since finding out how much I enjoy being hard to kill. The lurker apparently has an auto flank power on a 15 second timer, and flanks just as much as the eagle. This means I can not only hit like a ton of bricks with my melee attacks, but I can heal frequently. Now, while playing with the bear, I feel highly survivable. I can only imagine how much moreso this will be when I have consistant access to a power over time effect, consistant heals, and wacking away with staff strike.

    In my opinion, if you solo alot, you want to be highly survivable while still hitting hard, you don't really care for CC unless it's absolutely necessary, you don't mind not having ISG, you don't think ents is all that usefull(unless you trait red for the -180 second CD),and you want the most well rounded, consistantly usefull pet available, then there is no other pet choice.
    Last edited by HumphreyMilkweed; Jan 24 2011 at 12:43 PM.
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  10. #10

    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    2) All the lurker special skills are an attack of some sort, with a fairly quick CD. I'm the type of person who likes a pet to do damage. I don't want debuffs, heals, rezzes or anything like that. Save that situational nonsense for another class.


    Sorry, but Im still loling.

  11. #11
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    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    Quote Originally Posted by achromatis View Post
    2) All the lurker special skills are an attack of some sort, with a fairly quick CD. I'm the type of person who likes a pet to do damage. I don't want debuffs, heals, rezzes or anything like that. Save that situational nonsense for another class.


    Sorry, but Im still loling.
    I'm happy you're entertained, but do you care to be more specific? I've yet to find any content that requires my pet to debuff enemies, much less rez me, so I'm confused about your laughter. Or maybe you find the pve content challenging enough to require a self rez? If that's the case, I understand. I simply do not need a self rez when I already have so many skills that make it virtually impossible for me to die.
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    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    He's laughing because picking the bog lurker for it's dps is kind of counter productive. If you want dps you should go for MoNF. Also I'm not sure but I think the lynx does more damage. Definitely more burst dps.
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    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    Quote Originally Posted by Bedelian View Post
    He's laughing because picking the bog lurker for it's dps is kind of counter productive. If you want dps you should go for MoNF. Also I'm not sure but I think the lynx does more damage. Definitely more burst dps.
    I disagree. Flanks + ISS = dps. My point was that the lurker doesn't have any special skills that are strictly debuffs like the raven, or stuns like the bear, or rezzes, like the eagle. The lynx probably does higher damage alone compare to other pets, but it's survivability is in question. And I think I made it pretty clear how I felt about melee versus ranged damage when using a pet.

    Did you even read what I wrote?
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    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    Quote Originally Posted by HumphreyMilkweed View Post
    I disagree. Flanks + ISS = dps. My point was that the lurker doesn't have any special skills that are strictly debuffs like the raven, or stuns like the bear, or rezzes, like the eagle. The lynx probably does higher damage alone compare to other pets, but it's survivability is in question. And I think I made it pretty clear how I felt about melee versus ranged damage when using a pet.

    Did you even read what I wrote?
    wait till you get some of these skills. The DPS of the lurker pales in the face of improved sticky gourd by so much that there's simply no comparison. The DPS of ISG will amaze you, especially because it is such a step above our other tactical damage skills (in AOE situations at least) that it really changes the class.
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    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    wait till you get some of these skills. The DPS of the lurker pales in the face of improved sticky gourd by so much that there's simply no comparison. The DPS of ISG will amaze you, especially because it is such a step above our other tactical damage skills (in AOE situations at least) that it really changes the class.
    I will say this to clarify:

    I DO NOT THINK, NOR DID I STATE, THAT THE BOG LURKER CAN OUT DPS IMPROVED STICKY GOURD.

    The topic of this thread is about pets, specifically bog lurker versus the eagle. I simply said that I like pets to deal damage. And I specifically said I like pets that deal damage from range. If someone wants a pet that follows that criteria, then the bog lurker is the only choice. I further went into detail about how unique the lurker is compared to the generic bears, wolves, eagles, demons, etc that I've personally encountered in this and other games. This fact alone made me interested in the lurker, prior to knowing it was a high flanking, highly survivable, ranged DD pet. I also pointed out that people always mention the eagle's rez like it's the defining characteristic of the pet. I rarely die and usually play solo, so I find this skill pointless.
    Last edited by HumphreyMilkweed; Jan 24 2011 at 10:33 PM.
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  16. #16

    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    I ran with the bog guardian after I got it, for quite a while, since it was the new hotness. I liked it, great flank rate and all, but eventually I went back to the eagle (I've personally never been rezed by Sacrifice; I like the eagle for the interrupt, flank rate, and passive icpr boost). Switching away from KoA and bog guardian was about 80% due to not liking traiting 5 deep into KoA just to get it - only having a choice of 2 other traits to equip out of several other ones I really like. However, Turbine recently sweetened the pot by adding Combat Summoning as an extra effect of Nature Friend, which is a very nice bonus.

    Yes it's ranged, but I solo a lot and it turns out when you solo, whatever you are fighting is eventually going to be in your face (or you want it to be if the mob is ranged to begin with) so that advantage goes away soon after the fight starts. I cannot imagine that you don't do enough DPS to fully draw aggro - are you seriously ping ponging a mob back and forth between you and the bog guardian?? I'll grant that it can attack immediately instead of traveling to the mob, but the time that saves you in a fight isn't that significant.
    Last edited by AlatarielCarnesir; Jan 25 2011 at 09:52 PM. Reason: fix grammar
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    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    But the MoNF line is very much a part of the debate. If you go with lurker you are forgoing an insane amount of dps that you can have with eagle. Without even considering improved sticky gourd, the Master of Nature's Furry line is very powerful. Very few classes have trait lines that give you so much extra damage. I mean +60% damage for all your fire skills and +15% for all tactical skills.

    I think the flank heals from the eagle and the damage from MoNF is the perfect ratio of damage to survivability, the lurker is overkill for survivability and has too little damage.
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  18. #18

    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    I personally love the Bog-guardian. But it's not really a debate between the merits of each pet when you have to slot 5 deep into KoA. That's a huge factor. I've never found myself in a situation where 5 into KoA would be more beneficial than Ancient Master or Nature's Fury. The traits and bonuses don't synergize nearly as well as the other trait lines do. What would a LM be trying to accomplish, for example, by traiting 5 KoA (besides having a cool pet)?

  19. #19

    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    KOA supports a mostly melee oriented damage LM very well. The bog guardian has a very long range and is going to hit an enemy several times before one of our spells it holds aggro for a time and creates numerous flank opportunities, you can get the bog guardian captstone trait much earlier than the other two (63 and still don't have the others). Cooldowns on spells in monf would annoy me i think.

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    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    http://community.codemasters.com/for...ml#post6855837

    check this link if you are interested eagle vs bog flanks rate.

    I have to disagree with some of you saying that KoA is melee oriented. 4 MoNF+FL+2 other traits with eagle/ents/s&s gives you best outgoing melee damage. No other if coming close to that build. + that build gives you best survivability as Eagle is flanking with better rate then Bog. Only benefit from having Bog as a pet is that he can get range flank, witch can help you with kiting.
    Last edited by fiefur; Jan 25 2011 at 08:12 AM.

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    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    Quote Originally Posted by fiefur View Post
    http://community.codemasters.com/for...ml#post6855837

    check this link if you are interested eagle vs bog flanks rate.

    I have to disagree with some of you saying that KoA is melee oriented. 4 MoNF+FL+2 other traits with eagle/ents/s&s gives you best outgoing melee damage. No other if coming close to that build. + that build gives you best survivability as Eagle is flanking with better rate then Bog. Only benefit from having Bog as a pet is that he can get range flank, witch can help you with kiting.

    "Results:


    In-combat time:

    MoNF + Eagle - 2955 seconds
    KoA + Bog-lurker - 1359 seconds
    KoA + Eagle - 2217 seconds


    Pet DPS:

    MoNF + Eagle - 36 DPS
    KoA + Bog-lurker - 80 DPS
    KoA + Eagle - 50 DPS


    Amount of flanks:

    MoNF + Eagle - 150
    KoA + Bog-lurker - 78
    KoA + Eagle - 135

    /side note/ Durning 30 fights Lurker trigered more than 1 flank in less than 10 seconds only six times. Bog-lurker have to be in melee range to proceed flanks effectivly, otherwise hes flank ratio decrease dramaticly.


    Avarage time betwene flanks:

    MoNF + Eagle - 19,7 sec
    KoA + Bog-lurker - 17,4 sec
    KoA + Eagle - 16,4 sec"

    What I've gotten out of that is this:

    Bog lurker has much higher dps than the eagle, and the difference between flank time from the lurker to the eagle traited as KoA is 1 second. And this is all from one person's subjective results. Eagle users can have the additional 1 second average time between flanks, if that's even accurate. The bog lurker has style, ranged attacks, 3 skills that all deal damage, and apparently much higher dps. The only thing that I truly want from the eagle is the interrupt skill. There is no denying just how useful that is. But a self-rez? Uh, no thanks. A fear effect? Completely unnecessary, in my experience.

    In the end, it all boils down to personal preferrence however. What I've found is that people who want the highest damage possible slot red with ISG. And they usually are the ones who argue against using the lurker. People who aren't as concerned with having the perfect build are usually more open to using the lurker for a variety of reasons. Both are useful, depending on what you want out of the class.
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  22. #22
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    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    you'd be surprised how often that fear comes in handy in pvp
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    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    Quote Originally Posted by Bedelian View Post
    you'd be surprised how often that fear comes in handy in pvp
    Oh, I'm sure. Pvp is a whole different experience. I've pvp'd a grand total of once in this game, lol. A hunter challenged me to a duel and was soundly beaten by my awesome skills. He kept following me and insisting I re-spar with him. I will most likely try out pvp once I hit 65. I PvP'd almost exclusively in City of Heroes for years. Good times.
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  24. #24
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    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    Quote Originally Posted by HumphreyMilkweed View Post
    Bog lurker has much higher dps than the eagle, and the difference between flank time from the lurker to the eagle traited as KoA is 1 second. And this is all from one person's subjective results. Eagle users can have the additional 1 second average time between flanks, if that's even accurate. The bog lurker has style, ranged attacks, 3 skills that all deal damage, and apparently much higher dps. The only thing that I truly want from the eagle is the interrupt skill. There is no denying just how useful that is. But a self-rez? Uh, no thanks. A fear effect? Completely unnecessary, in my experience.

    In the end, it all boils down to personal preferrence however. What I've found is that people who want the highest damage possible slot red with ISG. And they usually are the ones who argue against using the lurker. People who aren't as concerned with having the perfect build are usually more open to using the lurker for a variety of reasons. Both are useful, depending on what you want out of the class.
    Im loving low level players discussing on forums. First you didnt notice pets dps in solo and groups play. What makes pets useful are their skills and flanks, also what you need to do to use them. By traiting KoA you are forced to using useless in solo play traits, and you skills dps is much lower then by using other traits( except full AM build). Talking about style... ill skip that argument. Range attacks means that he will stay behind sometimes thats means he will pull some re-spawning mobs it is not good sometimes. If you want pet with damaging skills go for lynx. Bogs skills are hiting for almost the same value as his attacks.

    As for eagle skills. Self rezz is epic. nuff said, if you dont see how big potential it have, you have a problem. So do fear, saying that another cc skill is not useful for main cc class in this game is like saying that fish dont need water to survive. CC is our power and more cc is better for us.

    For AoE damage full MoNF + ISG is best way but if you want high damage + survivability lets says for moors/soling big elites and you want to do it in fast and smooth way eagle is the way to go.


    At the end sorry for spelling& my grammar, My English need lots of work;p

  25. #25

    Re: eagle vs bog-guardian

    im running a bog guardian. i would use MoNF class, but i hate the fact that it takes 10 secs, and another 10 secs off our 1 stun skill. i hate having to change forms through a bard each time im soloing or in a group that needs me to CC. going 5 deep in KOA allows me to still use my stun ability and solo just fine

 

 
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