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  1. #676
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    [QUOTE=maradakia;5123697]NEW CLASS: BEORNING


    A Beorning Class would be so awesome!

    This would be very exciting and tons of fun. Of course many people will naturally be skeptical, so I've provided source material to show where in the lore having a whole class of Beornings would be founded. Thankfully there is ample primary source material which I was able to find with bibliographical notes. These demonstrate that there were many Beornings, with the ability to take bear's form, who were present and combating Sauron's forces in allegiance with the other Free Peoples of Middle Earth.

    After sharing my research, I've added some suggestions and thoughts regarding details of what this class might be about. However, these are just a draft of ideas, and Turbine could obviously go many different ways with this, to make it balanced, complementary with existing classes, and suitable however they see fit. If you have concerns about what might not work, please share those, along with your creative ideas about sollutions that might work : )



    Source Quotes From Tolkien's Works Regarding Beorn and the Beornings


    Beorn:

    "Standing near was a huge man with a thick black beard and hair, and great bare arms and legs with knotted muscles. He was clothed in a tunic of wool down to his knees, and was leaning on a large axe. The horses were standing by him with their noses at his shoulder." (The Hobbit)

    "He was towering tall above Gandalf. As for Bilbo he could have easily trotted through his legs without ducking his head to miss the fringe of the mans brown tunic." (The Hobbit, Chapter 7; Queer Lodgings, pg. 108)




    Beorn's History:

    "Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale." (said by Gandalf, The Hobbit: Queer Lodgings)

    And also, Gandalf preferring the latter suggestion, believed that Beorn once lived in the mountains himself and was probably forced to leave due to the numerous Orcs who moved in, for Beorn was overheard as saying by Gandalf while he was in his bear form on the Carrock, "The day will come when they will perish and I shall go back" (The Hobbit 119).

    "Beorn did not show it more than he could help, but really he had begun to get very interested. You see, in the old days he had known the very part of the mountains Gandalf was describing." (The Hobbit: Ch. 7)




    Many Beornings:

    In the Hobbit, Beorn participated in a bear's meeting at his house the nights the dwarves were staying with him. As Gandalf reports: "I have been picking out bear tracks," he said at last. "There must have been a regular bears' meeting outside here last night. I soon saw that Beorn could not have made them all: there were far too many of them, and they were of various sizes too. I should say there were little bears, large bears, ordinary bears, and gigantic big bears, all dancing outside from dark to nearly dawn." (The Hobbit: Queer Lodgings)

    These certainly aren't normal bears as we know them. They could be a variety of unusual bears, like other of the highly unusual, intelligent animals Beorn was surrounded by, or they may be Beornings, gathered in a meeting prior to heading to battle the Goblins and Wargs. These are both legitimate possibilities.

    "Throughout the rest of the meal they talked together, but Frodo listened more than he spoke; for the news of the Shire, apart from the Ring, seemed small and far-away and unimportant, while Gloin had much to tell of events in the northern regions of Wilderland. Frodo learned that Grimbeorn the Old, son of Beorn, was now the lord of many sturdy men, and to their land between the Mountains and Mirkwood neither orc nor wolf dared to go. 'lndeed,' said Gloin, `if it were not for the Beornings, the passage from Dale to Rivendell would long ago have become impossible." (The Fellowship of The Ring: Many Meetings)

    "The goblins of the Misty Mountains were now few and terrified, and hidden in the deepest holes they could find; and the Wargs had vanished from the woods, so that men went abroad without fear. Beorn indeed became a great chief afterwards in those regions and ruled a wide land between the mountains and the wood; and it is said that for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bear's shape, and some were grim men and bad, but most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength. In their day the last goblins were hunted from the Misty Mountains and a new peace came over the edge of the Wild." (The Hobbit: Ch.18 The Return Journey)

    Tolkien does not tell us how many Beornings there are except to say there are "many generations" of them, and that they are a distinct people, with their own language, heritage, vast lands, attitudes, and culinary preferences. We know they were numerous enough to keep the passage from Dale to Rivendell open in time of war, and to wipe out the goblin population from the Misty Mountains.

    It has been brought up that perhaps the Beornings were an aggregate of other peoples called by this name only as followers of Beorn's kin, and not of them. While this is perhaps also a plausible interpretation, it is nowhere stated by Tolkien in any of his works, and remains speculative conjecture. On the other hand Tolkien does repeatedly discuss the Beornings explicitly as a people and a bloodline, sharing kinship with the Rohirrim, Men of Dale, and the Woodmen, yet separate from them, and distinct. (see: Beornings - Race of Man)

    The Beornings at the time of the War of The Ring are also described as sharing specific traits in common with Beorn that strongly suggest their being his kinsmen, and not just his subjects. "...like Beorn of old they are not over fond of dwarves. Still, they are trusty, and that is much in these days." (The Fellowship of The Ring: Many Meetings) Also, the "honey-cakes of the Beornings" that Gimli mentions as famously good are cearly connected to Beorn's love of cream and honey, which in turn is connected to his changing into a bear.

    In any case, there is ample cause, reasonable and solidly founded, to understand the term Beorning to mean Beorn's kinfolk, and a sizable population, certainly more than large enough to base a character type on for our game.




    Skin-Changer:

    "And I was explaining very carefully, answered the wizard crossly. If you must know more, his name is Beorn. He is very strong, and he is a skin-changer... He changes his skin: sometimes he is a huge black bear, sometimes he is a great strong black-haired man with huge arms and a great beard." (The Hobbit: Queer Lodgings)

    "Beorn indeed became a great chief afterwards in those regions and ruled a wide land between the mountains and the wood; and it is said that for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bear's shape, and some were grim men and bad, but most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength." (The Hobbit: Ch.18 The Return Journey)

    It is worth noting here that Beornings are explicitly stated to be smaller and weaker than Beorn himself - an important source since Beorn himself would be an overpowered character to play, but the Beornings need not be.




    Beornings - Race of Man:

    Tolkien emphatically states in his April 25, 1954 letter to Naomi Mitchison that "Beorn was a Man" (Letters 178).

    'Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 144, dated 1954)

    From the LOTRO Lorebook Official Lore entry on Beornings: The heirs of Beorn. The Men who dwelt in the Vales of Anduin between Mirkwood and the Great River. The were led by the descendants of Beorn, who for many generations retained their ancestor's ability to take the shape of a bear. (http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Lore:Beornings)

    Gimli asks about the Rohirrim, "What do you know of these horsemen, Aragorn?" And he answers, "...It was in forgotten years long ago that Eorl the Young brought them out of the North, and their kinship is rather with the Bardings of Dale, and with the Beornings of the Wood, among whom may still be seen many men tall and fair, as are the Riders of Rohan. At least they will not love the Orcs."." (The Two Towers: The Riders of Rohan)

    "Most of the Men of the northern regions of the West-lands were descended from the Edain of the First Age, or from their close kin. Their languages were, therefore, related to the Adunaic, and some still preserved a likeness to the Common Speech. Of this kind were the peoples of the upper vales of Anduin: the Beornings, and the Woodmen of Western Mirkwood; and further north and east the Men of the Long Lake and of Dale. From the lands between the Gladden and the Carrock came the folk that were known in Gondor as the Rohirrim, Masters of Horses." (The Return of The King: Appendix F)

    "The Eotheod had moved to those regions in the days of King Earnil II from the lands in the vales of Anduin between the Carrock and the Gladden, and they were in origin close akin to the Beornings and the men of the west-eaves of the forest." ( The Return of The King: Appendix A)

    "These Northmen were descendants of the same race of Men as those who in the First Age passed into the West of Middle-earth and became the allies of the Eldar..." (Unfinished Tales: Cirion and Eorl)

    "The Northmen appear to have been most nearly akin to the third and greatest of the peoples of the Elf-friends, ruled by the House of Hador." (ibid. Author's note.)

    "Eorl the Young was lord of the Men of Eotheod. This land lay near the sources of the Anduin, between the upper ranges of the Misty Mountains and the northernmost parts of Mirkwood. Thither the Eotheod had removed some hundreds of years before from lands further south in the vale of Anduin. They were originally close kin of the Beornings and the men of the west-eaves of the forest; but they loved best the plains and wide fields, and they delighted in horses and in all feats of horsemanship. In the days of Garman father of Eorl they had grown to a numerous people somewhat straitened in the land of their home." (The Peoples of Middle-earth)

    "East of the Misty Mountains, even far to the north, the Common Speech was known; though there, as in Esgaroth, or in Dale, or among the Beornings and the Woodmen of the west-eaves of Mirkwood, Men also retained their own tongues in daily use. The Eorlings, or the Rohirrim as they were called in Gondor, still used their own northern tongue; for the Riders of Rohan had come out of Eotheod near the sources of Anduin only some five hundred years before the days here spoken of. Yet all but their humbler folk spoke also the Common Speech after the manner of Gondor." (The Book of Lost Tales vol.12)




    Why a Class

    The Beornings are a branch of the race of Man, related to the Rohirrim, the Men of Dale, and the Woodmen, as quoted above. Why then did I propose this as a Class? Because for all intents and purposes the suggestion I was making would be treated as a Class. I imagined all Racial Traits to be those of the Race of Man, and the Skills and Trait Lines to be based upon being a Beorning (i.e. taking bear's form, fighting with bite attacks and claw rends, calling upon their great bees, instilling fear with roars etc, as detailed below). I imagined this would be the simplest and most straightforward way to implement, however there are various alternative approaches to this issues that may be preferable.

    Alternatives - In character creation, among the Race choices of Man, Elf, Hobbit, and Dwarf, Beorning could be added as a sub-race of Man. The Class name could then be Skin-changer. Or, in character creation, if you select Race of Man, one of the options in the Class box could be Beornings, but say (sub-race) next to it. This is my preference. In the little Class Info blurb box describing what they are, the heritage of the Beornings as a sub-race of Man who are skin-changers, able to take bear's form, could be briefly explained. In the following screen to Select Origin, Vales of Anduin might be the only option as a Beorning, though their lands as described in the books are near Dale and not far from Rohan, so those might also be options.




    Beornings and The Free Peoples:

    Beorn, having been skeptical of the tale the Dwarves told him, investigated and found they spoke true. "As it is, I can only say that I have hurried home as fast as I could to see that you are safe, and to offer you any help I can. I shall think more kindly of dwarves after this" (The Hobbit, Chapter 7; Queer Lodgings, pg 120-121) Beorn provided the Dwarves, Gandalf, and the Hobbit lodging in his home, hearty meals, provisions for their journey ahead, and special mounts which were dear to him to help them on their way.

    During The Battle of Five Armies, Beorn comes to the aid of the Elves, Dwarves, and Men who allied against the Goblins, and Wargs. "Then Beorn stooped and lifted Thorin, who had fallen pierced with spears, and bore him out of the fray." (The Hobbit: chapter 18)

    The Beornings fight alongside Elves and Woodmen in the aid of King Thranduil of Mirkwood. They are victorious, and are granted wide lands as a gift in thanks: "And on the day of the New Year of the Elves, Celeborn and Thranduil met in the midst of the forest; and they renamed Mirkwood Eryn Lasgalen, The Wood of Greenleaves. Thranduil took all the northern region as far as the mountains that rise in the forest for his realm; and Celeborn took the southern wood below the Narrows, and named it East Lórien; all the wide forest between was given to the Beornings and the Woodmen." (The Return of The King; Appendix B)

    "According to Aragorn Gollum was taken at nightfall on February 1st. Hoping to escape detection by any of Sauron's spies he drove Gollum through the north end of the Emyn Muil... and then on, avoiding Moria and Dimril Dale, over Gladden until he came near the Carrock. There he crossed Anduin again, with the help of the Beornings, and passed into the Forest. The whole journey, on foot, was not much short of nine hundred miles, and this Aragorn accomplished with weariness in fifty days, reaching Thranduil on the twenty-first of March." (Unfinished Tales: The Hunt for the Ring)




    Beornings - Enemies of Sauron:

    Frodo, on Amon Hen sees a vision of Sauron's plans to attack the Beornings: "The Ring was upon him. Then here and there the mist gave way and he saw many visions... everywhere he looked he saw signs of war. The Misty Mountains were crawling like anthills: orcs were issuing out of a thousand holes. Under the boughs of Mirkwood there was deadly strife of Elves and Men and fell beasts. The land of the Beornings was aflame; a cloud was over Moria; smoke rose on the borders of Lórien." (The Fellowship of The Ring; The Breaking of The Fellowship)

    "A goblin's head was stuck outside the gate, and a warg skin was nailed to a tree just beyond. Beorn was a fierce enemy. But now he was their friend..." (H ch.7)

    "...and to their land between the Mountains and Mirkwood neither orc nor wolf dared to go. 'lndeed,' said Gloin, `if it were not for the Beornings, the passage from Dale to Rivendell would long ago have become impossible." (The Fellowship of The Ring: Many Meetings)

    "The goblins of the Misty Mountains were now few and terrified, and hidden in the deepest holes they could find; and the Wargs had vanished from the woods, so that men went abroad without fear. ... In their day the last goblins were hunted from the Misty Mountains and a new peace came over the edge of the Wild." (The Hobbit: Ch.18 The Return Journey)

    The Beornings come to the aid of King Thranduil in defending Mirkwood against Sauron's onslaught there, as quoted above from The Return of The King.

    On March 15, T.A. 3019, an army of Sauron from Dol Guldur, tasked with destroying the Woodland Realm, attacked Mirkwood. There was a long battle under the trees and the woods were set on fire. But in the end Thranduil defeated the invaders. On April 6, Thranduil met Celeborn, the Lord of Lórien, in the midst of Mirkwood. Celeborn's forces had crossed the Anduin and had stormed Dol Guldur. Galadriel, the Lady of Lórien, had come after them, throwing down the walls of Dol Guldur and laying bare its pits. Thranduil had cleared all the orcs and foul beings from North Mirkwood, so that the forest was cleansed and Sauron's empire in the North was destroyed.

    Because the Shadow over Mirkwood was lifted, Thranduil and Celeborn renamed it Eryn Lasgalen, the Wood of Greenleaves. They divided it up, so that Thranduil received the northern part as far as the Mountains, and Celeborn took the southern part below the Narrows, naming it East Lórien. The wide forest inbetween was given to the Beornings and the Woodmen[2].

    http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Thranduil




    A Sketch of Ideas On Beornings as a Class:

    As Berserker type melee class

    This class would do excellent melee damage. Like it's written about Beorn during the Batlle of 5 Armies: "Swiftly he returned and his wrath was redoubled, so that nothing could withstand him, and no weapon seemed to bite upon him." (The Hobbit" Ch. 18)

    Perhaps in order to differentiate from Champions in combat, the Beorning would primarily do single target attacks and not AOEs. However, they would be able to deal out top tier melee damage to a single target.

    They could have a frenzy/berserker state that can be built up, which increases damage dealt and at the same time vulnerability to damage received.

    It goes without saying that Beornings as a class would not be nearly as powerful as Beorn. As mentioned above, they would be balanced appropriately with our existing classes. This is supported by the lore, as it says: "...most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength."(The Hobbit: Ch.18 The Return Journey)

    In association with the derivation of the term Berserker:

    "A man capable of frenzied rage, or running amok. Berserks were said to fight without corselets, raging like wolves with the strength of bears, and might be regarded almost as shape changers, who acquired the strength and ferocity of beast. During pagan times, berserks were highly prized as warriors, but under Christian law those who ’went berserk’ were liable to heavy penalties. The word berserker, ’bear-shirted’, implies perhaps that the berserks sometimes disguised themselves as bears. (CT, The Saga of King Heidrek the Wise, p.93)

    "Berserkers (or Berserks) were Norse warriors who are reported in the Old Norse literature to have fought in a nearly uncontrollable, trance-like fury, a characteristic which later gave rise to the English word berserk. The name berserker arose from their reputed habit of wearing a kind of shirt or coat (Old Norse: serkr) made from the pelt of a bear (Old Norse: ber-) during battle."

    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker#cite_note-0)

    In literature: Bjorn (pronounced Beorn) - or Bjarni - was a man in the Norse legend "The Saga of Hrolf Kraki" who was cursed to become a bear by day and man by night. Bjorn's son Bothvarr Bjarki was able to send a bear-form into battle. Bjarki means "little bear."




    Armour

    In human form Beornings might wear medium armour. However their Armour Rating would receive -%, as would Might, Agility, Vitality, and Morale, reducing those to no more than the average for a Minstrel perhaps.

    In Bear form any armour worn would be hidden, and they would appear as a powerful upright bear. They would receive a +% to Armour Rating, Might, Agility, Vitality, and Morale such that on average it will be on par with Champions.




    Weapons

    In human form Beornings would use any one-handed or two-handed weapon, but with a -% to damage.

    In Bear form any weapon held would be hidden. The stats of the weapons held would apply, but the bear would appear to attack only with paw blows, teeth, and claw cuts.




    Man form

    In human form Beornings could be squishy assist healers. Actually, Beornings appear in the video game The Lord of the Rings: War of the Ring, and in this game they can turn into a bear at will and when in human form can heal other units.

    Perhaps a small side roll for this class would be to buff their fellows morale regen out of combat. This could be based upon the honey-cakes for which the Beornings are well known.

    "He keeps hives and hives of great fierce bees, and lives most on cream and honey... And such bees! Bilbo had never seen anything like them... The drones were bigger than your thumb, a good deal, and the bands of yellow on their deep black bodies shone like fiery gold." (The Hobbit: Ch.7)

    "Gimli mentions "the honey-cakes of the Beornings", gives them great praise, and says "the Beornings are the best bakers that I know of". (The Fellowship of The Ring: Ch.8)

    "...red earthenware pots of honey, and twice-baked cakes that would keep good a long time, and on a little of which they could march far." (Queer Lodgings)




    Appearance

    The descriptions Tolkien provides for the appearance of Beorn and the Beornings is not some sort of monster-movie style werewolf. In Man form they look like normal men, if somewhat taller than average. Tolkien states plainly that Beorn was a Man, and describes the Beornings as "tall and fair" (see: Beornings - Race of Man). In bear's form they would look like normal bears.




    Animal kinship

    Gandalf says, Beorn loves his animals as his children; Beorn may be your friend, but he loves his animals as his children. You do not guess what kindness he has shown you in letting dwarves ride them so far and so fast, nor what would happen to you, if you tried to take them into the forest. (The Hobbit, Chapter 7; Queer Lodgings, pg 124-125)

    Beorn could speak with, is very protective of, and kind to a variety of animals: great bees, intelligent horses, ponies, sheep, rams, and long-bodied grey dogs. These would "work for him and talk to him" (The Hobbit Ch.7), serve him, stand watch and report messages.

    Perhaps Beornings could call animals to their aid in combat. Maybe as pets, or maybe just as momentary assists - i.e. They could have a skill that calls a little group of birds that descend on an enemy, rooting them for 3 seconds. Or maybe a skill that calls bees to distract a mob, or interrupt an induction, or cause a bleed DoT. Maybe they'd have a long cooldown skill on a 30 minute timer which calls a group of bears down on a target : )




    Other abilities

    Perhaps in Bear form this class could debuff enemies with a fear type effect via roar attacks.

    They might do armour rends and bleeds, or things similar to Warg Stalker attacks.

    They could have a run buff based on this qoute: "...nor did they have to wonder long where he had been or why he was so nice to them, for he told them himself. He had been over the river and right back up into the mountains - from which you could guess that he could travel quickly, in bear's shape at any rate." (Queer Lodgings)




    Starting Location

    Beornings would start in Archet. The home lands of the Beornings are the Vales of Anduin, as quoted above (see: Beornings - Race of Man). This is between Mirkwood and the Misty Mountains. The options for Man in Select Origin include Dale, Rohan, and Gondor. Dale is farther east along the same road, and their passage to the west is only open because of the Beornings. Rohan and Gondor are both farther from Archet than the land of the Beornings. And keep in mind, the Beornings are Men. They are even repeatedly mentioned by Tolkien to be kinsmen of both the Men of Dale and Rohan, so there is no reason they would be less likely to find in Archet than a Man of Rohan, Gondor, or Dale.




    No Shirt, No Shoes, No Bears

    Some people have mentioned that for them having bears all over town, talking to NPCs etc would be innapropriate. Agreed. First of all, keep in mind we have LM bears already and it isn't an issue, not to mention their lynx, eagles, sabre-toothed tigers, and bog lurkers. Nonetheless there is no need to have additional bears in town because of Beornings, since there are various ways this could be quite easily addressed. One option would be to make it that you can only take bear's form while in combat. Another option would be to bar the ability to take bear's form when in a town, the same as Sparring is blocked. Certainly you couldn't interact with any NPCs.




    Radagast as Class Guide/NPC

    Radagast the Brown, was noted for his beast-lore, herb-lore, and friendship with animals. In fact, Beorn's suspicion over Gandalf's arrival with Bilbo and the Dwarves was in part overcome by his love of animals and nature, and his recognition of a kindred spirit in Radagast and thus, seeing Gandlaf as a cousin of Radagast, he extended respect to Gandalf and his entourage (H 121; FR 336-7; S 300).

    "I am a wizard," continued Gandalf. "I have heard of you, if you have not heard of me; but perhaps you have heard of my good cousin Radagast who lives near the Southern borders of Mirkwood?" "Yes; not a bad fellow as wizards go, I believe. I used to see him now and again," said Beorn. (The Hobbit, Chapter 7; Queer Lodgings, pg 109)

    "For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among the wild creatures. Thus he got his name (which is in the tongue of Numenor of old, and signifies, it is said, tender of beasts." (Unfinished Tales, Part IV, Chapter 2 ;The Istari, pg. 390)



    Turbine rights to Hobbit
    http://www.turbine.com/news/5-press/...ationship.html

    "WESTWOOD, MA -- February 20, 2008 - Turbine, Inc. announced today that in the wake of the global success of The Lord of the Rings Online™: Shadows of Angmar™, named the 2007 PC Game of the Year*, it has reached an agreement with Tolkien Enterprises to extend it's license to develop Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Games (MMORPG) based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien to 2014 with additional options to extend the rights until 2017."


    [/QUOT
    this idea sounds fun it would be nice to have another class to play this sounds so cool

  2. #677
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    So soon until The Hobbit... and BEORN!!! : ) I hope they do a good job with him in the movie.

    And I still keep hoping that LOTRO adds Beornings as a new Class (only available to Race of Man) identified as a sub-Race of Man.

    It would be so greaT! And would give me a reason to play LOTRO again and re-experience it from a new vantage point from level 1 up to 95

    History became legend, and legend became myth, and some things that should not have been forgotten were lost...

  3. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by mahaim View Post
    I like! this could be good!
    I agree this could be good!

  4. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by maradakia View Post
    So soon until The Hobbit... and BEORN!!! : ) I hope they do a good job with him in the movie.
    They haven't, he looks ridiculous.

    As for the rest... LOTRO has no furries. LOTRO needs no furries

  5. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post

    As for the rest... LOTRO has no furries. LOTRO needs no furries

    I laughed in RL.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  6. #681
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    The zombie thread from the pits of Mordor...........

  7. #682
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    BACK! BACK! BACK I SAY! BACK into the foul nether region from whence you came! Come not to trouble these good gentles again! I banish thee abomination! I banish thee unto the Undeeps!

  8. #683
    It's been requesting since the first year of this game tho..

    Anyhow, beorning class seems like a warden with a strong bear & eagle pet, kinda hybrid of a warden and a loremaster.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000002a028/signature.png]Winnetou[/charsig]
    Winnetou - Adipati - Joudei from Elendilmir, the Good Home Big E

  9. #684
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    Perspective.

    Why are some being so negative when all you need to do right now is go in game and see all kinds of 'insanity' that has no ground in The Professor's work? People walking around Bree with bearpets, no wait, with Oathbreaker pets. People walking around Bree with burning hands, performing all kinds of highly magical features. Everyone can be a Loremaster with powers almost equal to Gan-freaking-dalf.

    We're in LOTR Disney already. Everyone has their popcorn and ice-cream. Safe the Beorning fans.

    So should we just allow 'the abomination'?

    Ho there, not so fast. Do it right. How about a Beorning not being able to shapeshift in the vicinity of other characters, and never in areas labeled 'where folks dwell'. And not being able to enter areas where folk dwell in their bear form.

    While were at it, some of those limitations could be passed on to some other classes as well...

  10. #685
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinyo07 View Post
    It's been requesting since the first year of this game tho..
    People have been talking about it on and off since well before beta, even. The first year the forums were up, never mind the game. (And by that I mean the old forums, and the time before the game was even renamed 'LOTRO').

  11. #686
    I like the idea of putting beornings in the game, but I don't agree with making it a class...
    It should be a race similar to the Norn from GW2.
    With unlockable racial traits and skills, allowing you to shapeshift into bear/wolf/etc.
    They would essentially be a race of giant men with special skills.

  12. #687
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSO86 View Post
    I like the idea of putting beornings in the game, but I don't agree with making it a class...
    It should be a race similar to the Norn from GW2.
    With unlockable racial traits and skills, allowing you to shapeshift into bear/wolf/etc.
    They would essentially be a race of giant men with special skills.
    The only Beornings who could skin-change were Beorn's own male descendants. They weren't as big or strong as he was, so that 'giant' thing's out of place for starters. And it's bear's-shape or nothing, not wolves or whatever else you might fancy.

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    I find LOTRO too flashy enough with the Rune-keepers and lore masters and a minstrel's hand glowing and Wardens spears lighting up on fire and guardians flashing with light and everything... adding this as a CLASS would just make it all the more flashy in a way they couldn't ever repair...but as others had said making it a session play thing I would be fine and and would ACTUALLY love to see!

  14. #689
    Oh I thought they were all big, my mistake. But a session play would be awesome too!

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    I'm still pining away for a new Beorning class for LOTRO!!! : ) Time to replay the whole game from level 1 as my beloved Beorning skin-changer - pretty please.

    It's amazing. Since I started the predecessor to this thread until now there's been such a proliferation of Beorning content, information, and interest out there WooT for more Beorning love <3





    And I even found a Beorning Axe in LOTRO "with the swift and deadly power of the mighty bear." HooraY!

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    Quote Originally Posted by maradakia View Post
    I'm still pining away for a new Beorning class for LOTRO!!! : ) Time to replay the whole game from level 1 as my beloved Beorning skin-changer - pretty please.

    It's amazing. Since I started the predecessor to this thread until now there's been such a proliferation of Beorning content, information, and interest out there WooT for more Beorning love <3
    Do stop bumping your own thread. It's become entirely pointless because even leaving lore aside, Turbine don't even have the license for The Hobbit nowadays and that's the only place skin-changing is ever mentioned. So, not happening. Ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Do stop bumping your own thread. It's become entirely pointless because even leaving lore aside, Turbine don't even have the license for The Hobbit nowadays and that's the only place skin-changing is ever mentioned. So, not happening. Ever.
    Except for the facts that Beornigs are mentioned in the trilogy and even if they weren't it wouldn't matter because Turbine had no issue with making a whole instance cluster based on The Hobbit with Dale, the Lonely Mountain, Smaug, Spiders of Mirkwood and Iobar. You can talk about lore all you want as that's a perfectly fine argument, but to imply that they can't be in the game due to licensing is incorrect.
    Last edited by Widoch; Mar 04 2014 at 04:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Widoch View Post
    Except for the facts that Beornigs are mentioned in the trilogy and even if they weren't it wouldn't matter because Turbine had no issue with making a whole instance cluster based on The Hobbit with Dale, the Lonely Mountain, Smaug, Spiders of Mirkwood and Iobar. You can talk about lore all you want as that's a perfectly fine argument, but to imply that they can't be in the game due to licensing is incorrect.
    This is only partially correct. There have been discussions several years ago regarding Turbine's usage of lore that is mentioned in appendices/other sources before, and there are limitations. While Turbine/WB have included things not expressly in the LotR trilogy, they do so only with careful preparation and discussions with the IP holder. They cannot just say that because something is mentioned in the appendices it is automatically able to be used in the game. They need to pick their issues carefully, prepare a justifiable reason for including it and obtain permission from the IP holder before it can be included.
    Can these sort of things be included in the game? Yes, but only with careful preparation and approval from the IP holder.

    Note: The above is based on prior posts by Turbine employees such as Jonathan 'Berephon' Rudder.

  19. #694
    A new class is interesting and all. Not like the classes are terribly underpowered, so not like a new class would unbalance much.
    I loved my shapeshifting Druid in WoW, so a Beoring class as described here, I'm sure I'd love (assuming it is implemented right).

    Though, if I have my LotR lore correct, there's really no way there could be enough Beorings to excuse a bunch of them running around everywhere all of a sudden.
    Skin-changing/shapeshifting in the LotR world does not seem to be a 'skill' or 'ability' that can be learned by any non-beorings (unless I'm mistaken?).

    In WoW, the Death Knight class used to be one per server per account, and unlocked after hitting level 55 on another character. (iirc, Blizzard took off the limit of 1 per server per account semi-recently)
    If Turbine implemented a 'one per server per account', I'd be happy with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Widoch View Post
    Except for the facts that Beornigs are mentioned in the trilogy and even if they weren't it wouldn't matter because Turbine had no issue with making a whole instance cluster based on The Hobbit with Dale, the Lonely Mountain, Smaug, Spiders of Mirkwood and Iobar. You can talk about lore all you want as that's a perfectly fine argument, but to imply that they can't be in the game due to licensing is incorrect.
    As I said, skin-changing (specifically) is only mentioned in The Hobbit, not in LOTR, even though the Beornings are. Secondly, from what they've said Turbine don't have rights to use things that are only mentioned in The Hobbit (or anything else they don't have the rights to) - they're okay if they're mentioned in LOTR as well (even in passing), but not everything is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maradakia View Post
    I'm still pining away for a new Beorning class for LOTRO!!! : ) Time to replay the whole game from level 1 as my beloved Beorning skin-changer - pretty please.

    Stop bumping your own thread dude, I don't like reading something that is a year old.
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    Radhruin - though your trolling of this suggestion is frustrating at times, ironically if it wasn't for you this thread might not keep growing and enduring so greatly, and garnering so much continued interest and support. Your persistent arguments, with a near constant level of asserting your personal fan-fic view of things onto the lore as though it was cannon, (which unless you are Christopher Reuel Tolkien is very inappropriate and false), actually just serves to perpetuate more discussion - so that's cool, I guess. Your efforts to derail things are in the end much like Morgoth's dissonance, which though he intends them to destroy, in the full view of things in the end are revealed to actually be subsumed into the larger themes and harmonies of Creation : )

    My occasional discoveries of new information on the topic are something I'm happy to share, with new hope to perhaps have our Devs review the concept, as well as a place for those of us who love Tolkien, and do like this idea to share our discussions

    As for your recent claim that LOTRO/WB can't use content that is solely found in the Hobbit due to a lack of license. This is an error as far as I can tell. You can see Turbine and Warner Bros. current licenses with Middle-earth Enterprises here: http://www.middleearth.com/current_licensees.html

    Also see: "WESTWOOD, MA -- February 20, 2008 - Turbine, Inc. announced today that in the wake of the global success of The Lord of the Rings Online™: Shadows of Angmar™, named the 2007 PC Game of the Year*, it has reached an agreement with Tolkien Enterprises (now Middle-earth Enterprises) to extend it's license to develop Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Games (MMORPG) based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien to 2014 with additional options to extend the rights until 2017."

    Is that license cancelled? It's supposed to last through this year, with an option for 3 more years. Can a license like that, once given, even be revoked??

    In any case Turbine and WB have a current license with Middle-earth Enterprises, and even if you were to somehow provide solid proof that this only extends to the LOTR trilogy, and no other books of J.R.R. Tolkien, including The Hobbit (as opposed to asserting this based on... fluff and hateful thinking??), the reality remains that the Beornings appear many times in the LOTR trilogy, so there's no need to rely on the Hobbit.

    By the way, Middle-earth Enterprises (formerly Tolkien Enterprises) has given license to other games to have Beornings, specifically as skin-changers who can switch from human form to bear form, in other games.

    As above, here you see the Beorning Skin-changers, licensed to Tolkien Enterprises:



    And here is a screenshot from The Lord of the Rings: War of The Ring, licensed by Tolkien Enterprises. On the cover of that game (I own a copy) it has a seal from Tolkien Enterprises, as an OFFICIAL GAME (in all caps), based on the literary works of J.R.R. Tolkien. This is the Beorning unit you can create an army of in that game, and you can see the Beorning's skill at the right side of the screen which "Allows the Beorning to change his skin and become a massive brown bear."



    ---------------------------------------------------------

    For those who have been misled or are simply unaware that besides Beorn, there are all sorts of references Tolkien makes to Beornings, and their love of honey, and their commonalities in appearance, nature, and attitudes to Beorn, as well as their history as a distinct sub-race of northern Men, their language, their lands, and their significant involvement in the war against Sauron at the end of the Third Age as a sizable populace who held and defended wide lands, drove off the Orcs, and aided Thranduil in the Battle of Mirkwood, known as The Battle Under the Trees, against the forces from Dol-Guldur... among a rich narrative about this amazing people of Middle-earth, and even the interesting sources Tolkien may have drawn upon for his own Beornings as a scholar of the English language, specialising in Old and Middle English, and Professor of Anglo-Saxon (Old English) at the University of Oxford, with particular interest in Beowulf, on which he wrote the pivotal essay in that field of study (The Monsters and the Critics), here is some source material for your perusal:

    Frodo, on Amon Hen sees a vision of Sauron's intent to attack the Beornings: "The Ring was upon him. Then here and there the mist gave way and he saw many visions... everywhere he looked he saw signs of war. The Misty Mountains were crawling like anthills: orcs were issuing out of a thousand holes. Under the boughs of Mirkwood there was deadly strife of Elves and Men and fell beasts. The land of the Beornings was aflame; a cloud was over Moria; smoke rose on the borders of Lórien." (The Fellowship of The Ring; The Breaking of The Fellowship)

    "And on the day of the New Year of the Elves. Celeborn and Thranduil met in the midst of the forest; and they renamed Mirkwood Eryn Lasgalen, The Wood of Greenleaves. Thranduil took all the northern region as far as the mountains that rise in the forest for his realm; and Celeborn took the southern wood below the Narrows, and named it East Lórien; all the wide forest between was given to the Beornings and the Woodmen." (The Return of The King; Appendix B)

    "A man capable of frenzied rage, or running amok. Berserks were said to fight without corselets, raging like wolves with the strength of bears, and might be regarded almost as shape changers, who acquired the strength and ferocity of beast. During pagan times, berserks were highly prized as warriors. The word berserker, ’bear-shirted’, implies perhaps that the berserks sometimes disguised themselves as bears.
    (CT, The Saga of King Heidrek the Wise, p.93)

    "Berserkers (or Berserks) were Norse warriors who are reported in the Old Norse literature to have fought in a nearly uncontrollable, trance-like fury, a characteristic which later gave rise to the English word berserk. The name berserker arose from their reputed habit of wearing a kind of shirt or coat (Old Norse: serkr) made from the pelt of a bear (Old Norse: ber-) during battle." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker#cite_note-0)

    In literature: Bjorn (pronounced Beorn) - or Bjarni - was a man in the Norse legend "The Saga of Hrolf Kraki" who was cursed to become a bear by day and man by night. Bjorn's son Bothvarr Bjarki was able to send a bear-form into battle. Bjarki means "little bear."

    Beornings can speak with animals, are very protective of, and kind to them (The Hobbit 126). They keep the company of highly intelligent animals of various kinds such as horses, dogs, and great bees etc... and these animals help them (The Hobbit 136).

    Gandalf cautions regarding Beorn: "... you must be careful not to annoy him, or heavens knows what will happen. He can be appalling when he is angry, though he is kind enough if humoured. Still I warn you he gets angry easily." (The Hobbit: Ch. 7)

    "A goblin's head was stuck outside the gate, and a warg skin was nailed to a tree just beyond. Beorn was a fierce enemy. But now he was their friend..." (H ch.7)

    Beorn kept great bees, intelligent horses, ponies, sheep, rams, and long-bodied grey dogs. These would "work for him and talk to him" (The Hobbit Ch.7), serve him, stand watch and report messages.

    Gimli asks about the Rohirrim, "What do you know of these horsemen, Aragorn?"
    And he answers, "...It was in forgotten years long ago the Eorl the Young brought them out of the North, and their kinship is rather with the Bardings of Dale, and with the Beornings of the Wood, among whom many still be seen many men tall and fair, as are the Riders of Rohan. At least they will not love the Orcs." (The Two Towers: The Riders of Rohan)

    "Most of the Men of the northern regions of the West-lands were descended from the Edain of the First Age, or from their close kin. Their languages were, therefore, related to the Adunaic, and some still preserved a likeness to the Common Speech. Of this kind were the peoples of the upper vales of Anduin: the Beornings, and the Woodmen of Western Mirkwood; and further north and east the Men of the Long Lake and of Dale. From the lands between the Gladden and the Carrock came the folk that were known in Gondor as the Rohirrim, Masters of Horses." (The Return of The King: Appendix F)

    "The Eotheod had moved to those regions in the days of King Earnil II from the lands in the vales of Anduin between the Carrock and the Gladden, and they were in origin close akin to the Beornings and the men of the west-eaves of the forest." ( The Return of The King: Appendix A)

    More about the specific races of Men, and their historical connections, their distinct blood lines as peoples who develop their own languages and customs: note well, the Beornings are identified by Tolkien as an independent and unique "kin", which is a sub-category of the Race of Men.

    Eorl the Young was lord of the Men of Eotheod. This land lay near the sources of the Anduin, between the upper ranges of the Misty Mountains and the northernmost parts of Mirkwood. Thither the Eotheod had removed some hundreds of years before from lands further south in the vale of Anduin. They were originally close kin of the Beornings and the men of the west-eaves of the forest; but they loved best the plains and wide fields, and they delighted in horses and in all feats of horsemanship. In the days of Garman father of Eorl they had grown to a numerous people somewhat straitened in the land of their home. (The Peoples of Middle-earth)

    $13. Now the people of Elendil were not many, for only a few great ships had escaped the Downfall or survived the tumult of the Seas. They found, it is true, many dwellers upon the west- shores who came of their own blood, wholly or in part, being descended from mariners and from wardens of forts and havens that had been set there in days gone by; yet all told the Dunedain were now only a small folk in the midst of strangers. They used, therefore, the Westron speech in all their dealings with other men, and in the governing of the realms of which they had become the rulers; and this Common Speech became now enlarged, and much enriched with words drawn from the language of the Dunedain, which was, as has been said, a form of the Elvish Noldorin [> and much enriched with words drawn from the Adunaic language of the Dunedain, and from the Noldorin]. But among themselves the kings and high lords, and indeed all those of Numenorean blood in any degree, for long used the Noldorin speech; and in that tongue they gave names to men and to places throughout the realms of the heirs of Elendil.

    $14. In this way it had come about that at the time when the events recorded in this book began it might be said that nearly all speaking-folk of any race west of the east-eaves of Mirkwood spoke after some fashion this Common Speech; while Men who dwelt in Eriador, the wide land between the Misty Mountains and Ered Lindon, or in the coast-lands south of the White Mountains, used the Westron only and had long forgot- ten their own tongues. So it was with the folk of Gondor (other than the lords) and of the Anfalas and beyond; and with the Bree-folk I and the Dunlendings [> in the North]. East of the Misty Mountains, even far to the north, the Common Speech was known; though there, as in Esgaroth [> as beside the Long Lake] or in Dale, or among the Beornings and the Woodmen of the west-eaves of Mirkwood, Men also retained their own tongues in daily use. The Eorlings, or the Rohirrim as they were called in Gondor, still used their own northern tongue, yet all but their humbler folk spoke also the Common Speech after the manner of Gondor; for the Riders of Rohan had come out of Eotheod near the sources of Anduin only some five hundred years before the days here spoken of.

    [The conclusion of this paragraph was rewritten thus: The Eorlings, or the Rohirrim as they were called in Gondor, still used their own northern tongue; for the Riders of Rohan had come out of Eotheod near the sources of Anduin only some five hundred years before the days here spoken of. Yet all but their humbler folk spoke also the Common Speech after the manner of Gondor. In the Dunland also the Dunlendings, a dwindling people, remnant of those who had dwelt in western Rohan before the coming of the Rohirrim, still clung to their own speech. This was wholly unlike the Westron, and was de- scended, as it seems, from some other Mannish tongue, not akin to that of the Atani, Fathers of Men. A similar and kindred language was probably once spoken in Bree: see (the footnote to $25).] (The Book of Lost Tales vol.12)


    "These Northmen were descendants of the same race of Men as those who in the First Age passed into the West of Middle-earth and became the allies of the Eldar..." (Unfinished Tales: Cirion and Eorl)

    "The Northmen appear to have been most nearly akin to the third and greatest of the peoples of the Elf-friends, ruled by the House of Hador." (ibid. Author's note.)

    After the War of Wrath and Morgoth's ultimate defeat, the People of Hador were the most numerous of the surviving Edain, and formed a large part of the population of the new nation of Númenor. The first King of Númenor, Elros Tar-Minyatur, was descended from Hador's son Galdor (though his bloodlines also descended from the House of Bëor). It was the language of the People of Hador that was to become the common language of Númenor, and it was thereafter known as Adûnaic. ( Enyclopedia of Arda)

    "To the Fathers of Men of the three faithful houses rich reward also was given. Eonwe came among them and taught them; and they were given wisdom and power and life more enduring than any others of mortal race have possessed. A land was made for the Edain to dwell in, neither part of Middle-earth nor of Valinor..." (Akallabeth)

    "And setting their course towards it the Edain came at last over leagues and saw afar the land that was prepared for them, Andor, the Land of Gift, shimmering in a golden haze." (ibid.)

    As a side note of interest: The first house of the Edain is called the House of Beor. Among Beor's children are: Baran his son, Boron his grandson, Beren, (note the similarity of names to Beorn) and eventually Elros and all his line, to who Iluvatar granted a life span many times increased. "But Elros lived five hundred years, and ruled the Numernoreans four hundred years and ten." (The Silmarillion: Akallabeth)

    http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Lore:Beornings Official Lore Entry - The heirs of Beorn: The Men who dwelt in the Vales of Anduin between Mirkwood and the Great River. The were led by the descendants of Beorn, who for many generations retained their ancestor's ability to take the shape of a bear.

    When Gandalf says that Beorn is a skin-changer, Bilbo asks if this means a furrier, to which Gandalf replies: "Good gracious heavens, no, no, NO, [size=large]NO!"[/size] said Gandalf. "Don't be a fool Mr Baggins if you can help it; and in the name of all wonder don't mention the word furrier again as long as you are within a hundred miles of his house, nor rug, cape, tippet, muff, nor any other such unfortunate word! He is a skin-changer. He changes his skin: sometimes he is a huge black bear, sometimes he is a great strong black-haired man with huge arms and a great beard." "... as a man he keeps cattle and horses which are nearly as marvellous as himself. They work for him and talk to him. He does not eat them; neither does he hunt or eat wild animals. He keeps hives and hives of great fierce bees, and lives most on cream and honey. As a bear he ranges far and wide. I once saw him sitting all alone on the top of the Carrock at night watching the moon sinking towards the Misty Mountains, and I heard him growl in the tongue of bears: 'The day will come when they will perish and I shall go back!' That is why I believe he came from the mountains himself." (The Hobbit: Queer Lodgings)

    "There was a growling sound outside, and a noise as of some great animal scuffling at the door. Bilbo wondered what it was, and whether it could be Beorn in enchanted shape, and if he would come in as a bear and kill them." (Queer Lodgings)

    "...nor did they have to wonder long where he had been or why he was so nice to them, for he told them himself. He had been over the river and right back up into the mountains - from which you could guess that he could travel quickly, in bear's shape at any rate." (Queer Lodgings)

    According to Aragorn Gollum was taken at nightfall on February 1st. Hoping to escape detection by any of Sauron's spies he drove Gollum through the north end of the Emyn Muil, and crossed Anduin just above Sarn Gebir. Driftwood was often cast up there on the shoals by the east shore, and binding Gollum to a log he swam across with him, and continues his journey north by tracks as westerly as he could find, through the skirts of Fangorn, and so over Limlight, then over Nimrodel and Silverlode through the eaves of Lorien, and then on, avoiding Moria and Dimril Dale, over Gladden until he came near the Carrock. There he crossed Anduin again, with the help of the Beornings, and passed into the Forest. The whole journey, on foot, was not much short of nine hundred miles, and this Aragorn accomplished with weariness in fifty days, reaching Thranduil on the twenty-first of March. (Unfinished Tales: The Hunt for the Ring)

    Some great reading about J.R.R. Tolkien - http://www.tolkiensociety.org/tolkien/biography.html

    Amazing resource on connections to Beowulf - http://www.viking.ucla.edu/hrolf/maincontents.html

    Here's a specific link to part of the Saga about Bjorn turning into a bear - http://www.viking.ucla.edu/hrolf/ch20.html

    And Tolkien's Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics - http://teacherweb.com/NJ/DeptfordTow...he-Critics.pdf

    While the old establishment scoffed at the presence of monsters such as those in Beowulf, and rejected their value in study and understanding of ourselves and our history, Tolkien found great meaning there, and brought to light the richness of the stuff of truth present therein. He forged the foundation for bringing these marvelous beings out of obscurity and the marginalized children's stories, into adult and serious works, with depth and significance.

    ... Interestingly, the same stubborn resistance to fantastical creatures in literature, such as the Beornings, and their worth has found its way into a rejection of the same even within Tolkien's own works, and this game based upon them. Maybe I am carrying on the torch here of the Monsters and the Critics.
    Last edited by maradakia; Apr 09 2014 at 05:23 AM.
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  23. #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    As I said, skin-changing (specifically) is only mentioned in The Hobbit, not in LOTR, even though the Beornings are. Secondly, from what they've said Turbine don't have rights to use things that are only mentioned in The Hobbit (or anything else they don't have the rights to) - they're okay if they're mentioned in LOTR as well (even in passing), but not everything is.
    My point is, Beornings are mentioned in the trilogy. Therefore, defining what a Beorning is wouldn't be any different than Dale or the Lonely Mountain making into the game anymore than using passages from the Hobbit to help in the design of Bilbo's trolls which are only mentioned in passing. Basically the entire regions of Angmar, Forochel, and Enedwaith were created this way. Something is mentioned in passing, they then go to material outside of the trilogy to figure out what it is, and then they let the creative minds take license with it and off they go.

    I agree with you that lore wise, it would be a bit silly to have hundreds of man/bears running around. But from a purely legal angle, I don't see any reason why they couldn't do something with the Beornings.

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    There is ample source material from Lord of the Rings about the Beornings to base a class on strictly according to the lore, unless like Radhruin you are obstinant and insist that Beornings cannot mean Beorn's kin, despite the fact that Tolkien specifically calls them a kin, describing their common physical, linguistic, and racial characteristics, with specific reference to bear related things, like particular affinity for honey foods etc...

    They are a large enough population to own and successfully protect a massive area of land, from the Misty Mountains to Mirkwood, and are singularly praised for keeping the passage from Dale to Rivendell open at those times, riding the land of Orcs and Wargs, and later on holding an enormous tract of Greenwood the Great. That is a sizable population.

    The argument that interprets the name 'Beorning' to preclude even the possibility that these are Beorn's kinsfolk is empty and false. The name specifically means the kin of Beorn and there are many places where Tolkien described them as a distinct racial group. If someone favors interpreting Beorning to mean people who are anything but related to Beorn, that is their prerogative, but it is not remotely an argument that disproves the validity of also understanding the Beornings to be Beorn's kinfolk, as is the simple meaning.

    However, in contrast, and as a point of reference - how many of these do you find in the LOTR books:

    - Elves in the Shire, Bree, Moria or many other places you see them in LOTRO?
    - Dwarves in Rohan, Rivendell, or especially Lothlorien?
    - Elves and Dwarves travelling together in fellowship?
    - Hobbits outside of the Shire?
    - Hobbits who can stand toe to toe (tanking) a Balrog?
    - Dwarves, Men, Elves, or Hobbits (anyone besides Maiar really) who do any sort of on the spot, powerful, overt, or combative magic spellcasting?

    For the most part the only Elves active outside of Mirkwood, Lothlorien, or Rivendell were Legolas, Elladan, and Elrohir. (don't be misled by the movies)
    The only Dwarf at all outside Dwarven regions that we hear about is Gimli.
    The only Dwarf and Elf who make friends, to the point that this is a very notable occurrence, are Legolas and Gimli.
    The only Hobbits at all outside the Shire are Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin
    None of them could stand toe to toe with a Balrog, or even a small group of Orcs if on their own.
    Nobody does overt, offensive, caster type magic in LOTR, except Gandalf, who is a Maia, and even his magic is some coloured pinecone fires, a flash here and there, and the appearance of horses in the flooding of the Bruinen... and this is a one time event.

    And yet, these unique individuals are the basis for entire Classes. Partly this is because it's a game for crying out loud. But it's also because an MMO functions on the premise that there are not hundreds of Dwarves in Lorien. It requires that we suspend disbelief so that it's as if we are each *the* unique Hero. Otherwise you have thousands of people who all saved the same Lalia, defeated Thaurlach, spoke to Elrond, chased down the fragments of Narchuil, etc...... But we didn't. We were each a singular traveller doing these great deeds. You don't need hundreds of Hobbits off on adventures, or scores of Elves with Eagle pets hanging out dancing with their Dwarf friends in Moria, and Dwarves playing music for Elves in Lothlorien in the LOTR books in order to have these as Races and Classes within this MMO. You only need one or two to draw the concepts from.

    But don't be misled - if they added Beornings for us this would absolutely not be a case of two wrongs not making a right. Whereas all the situations I described above only occur very uniquely in the books, J.R.R. Tolkien does specifically write about a whole population of Beornings who are fierce combatants, and while some people want to ascribe to the idea that maybe the Beornings are not related to Beorn, it is most certainly possible that the Beornings are Beorn's kinfolk, as Tolkien directly calls them a kin, and gives details that directly support understanding them to be his kin. That means that whereas the Dwarf and Elf and Hobbit and magic use situations are very rare in the books, Beornings as a large population of skin-changers who are out there fighting Sauron's forces is very well founded in the books.

    Some people may not like the idea of having Beornings in LOTRO, but that is really the truth of it - they don't like it. It has nothing to do with breaking the lore as written by Tolkien. It might not jive with the personal way they had imagined things - their own fan-fiction as it were - but that is not the same thing as being in contradiction to the lore. Maybe they assumed that Beorn was alone, and didn't much notice the places Tolkien mentioned Beornings, and are now resistant to amending their understanding when presented with textual sources that differ from what they had assumed. Or maybe they just don't agree with Tolkien's choice to include skin-changers in his story, but there they are, and many of us really adore them.



    Last edited by maradakia; Mar 05 2014 at 02:25 AM.
    History became legend, and legend became myth, and some things that should not have been forgotten were lost...

  25. #700
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    Quote Originally Posted by Widoch View Post
    My point is, Beornings are mentioned in the trilogy. Therefore, defining what a Beorning is wouldn't be any different than Dale or the Lonely Mountain making into the game anymore than using passages from the Hobbit to help in the design of Bilbo's trolls which are only mentioned in passing. Basically the entire regions of Angmar, Forochel, and Enedwaith were created this way. Something is mentioned in passing, they then go to material outside of the trilogy to figure out what it is, and then they let the creative minds take license with it and off they go.
    Bilbo's trolls were in the game from SoA onwards, and back then Turbine did have the license for The Hobbit. So far as LOTR goes, though, 'Beornings' is little more than the name of a people. You can have Beornings, you can have the guy called Grimbeorn the Old who leads them, they could have them fighting the Orcs and so on since these are all from LOTR but I am not at all convinced they can use details that appear solely in The Hobbit, and that would include the specific detail from that book of Beorn's male descendants having the ability to skin-change into bears.

    Ask yourself a question: why have they not done any of the lands from The Hobbit in any detail?

 

 
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