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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    144

    Modification to loot system

    Currently if I do any instance like Library I get a fixed-stat loot.

    Example:

    Earring (level 75):
    + 100 Might
    + 30 Vitality
    + 600 Critical Rating

    Is it possible to make each stat plus minus random 5% of the designed value?

    Example:

    Earring(level 75)
    + (95-105) Might
    + (29-31) Vitality
    + (570-630) Critical Rating

    So, the first time I get earring it could like like this:

    Earring(level 75)
    + 102 Might
    + 29 Vitality
    + 607 Critical Rating

    The second time I get the same earring the stats on it could be:

    Earring(level 75)

    + 97 Might
    + 30 Vitality
    + 621 Critical Rating

    Such approach will give a possibility to try to improve any item endlessly.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    South Tyrol, sadly in Italy
    Posts
    4,242
    Sadly that's not possible in Lotro. To save data, all have pre-defined values (with a few exceptions, legendary items, the new pre-order "cape").
    There's not even jewelry for all levels of scaled instances.

    A ring for level 52 will have the exact same stats as the ring looted at level 50. I think the values only vary every 5 levels. If they didn't, 5 times as many ring definitions would be needed.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    389
    Quote Originally Posted by Neumi View Post
    Sadly that's not possible in Lotro. To save data, all have pre-defined values (with a few exceptions, legendary items, the new pre-order "cape").
    There's not even jewelry for all levels of scaled instances.

    A ring for level 52 will have the exact same stats as the ring looted at level 50. I think the values only vary every 5 levels. If they didn't, 5 times as many ring definitions would be needed.
    I'm not sure that is entirely accurate.

    A few weeks ago I did several instances at around lvl 52-55 on the minstrel I occasionally level on (non-main character) in that time she earned several of the same item, but only a level or two apart(like a cloak from IP at 52 then same cloak at 54) there was a slight increase in the stats, even if minute between the lvl 52 and 54 version of the item.

    But the essence of your comment is correct though possibly requires a little tweaking. If we had slightly modifiable items it would actually further increase character/area load times and also further lag in populated areas where many players are at as instead of loading the base defaults of all versions of an item, the game would have to scan and load all variants, + the players changes to an item, likely making lag and load times quite unbarable.

    This system is good for games where the games base build allowed such to most items, but this far in it would require too much of an overhaul on more than just items but also background processes of the LOTRO system to adjust for the loads etc.

    One could argue this is the same for Legendary Items though - but I would assume Legendary items being tied to slots designed with them specifically in mind is a different kettle of fish rather than suddenly having every slot be essentially a modifiable item.
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  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Middle Earth, Arda
    Posts
    4,103

    Thumbs down

    That will result in too much headache when i attempt to calculate what piece theorically will be better to balance my stats. I will not be able to know with how much stats i can count until i have the particular random variation of the piece in my hands.
    Is this Alternate Character Disorder? :

    Check my Kinship at Gladden server: The Fate of Middle Earth

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    12,677
    Asheron's Call (Turbine's first MMO) had a treasure system with randomized stats/buffs/materials on each item dropped. It was marvelous, because you could indeed make (mostly small) incremental improvements on your gear forever. This also led to a very active player economy, as people were constantly looking to upgrade via items other people had found in the treasure system. I wish LOTRO had gone that route, but I can understand why they didn't - it requires quite a lot more database, bandwidth, etc to do.

    Static items are trivial to store (in the database, in server memory, and in client memory) and require far less bandwidth to send to the client - it's basically just a number used to look up an item in a table. Dynamically created items require a ton more data to describe them. The few customizations we're allowed (dyed and/or named items) do add to that load, but not too much... and not on every item. If Turbine were to suddenly switch over to a fully dynamic loot system, they'd almost certainly have to drop the amount of personal storage we'd be allowed to carry due to server performance issues. Obviously, that would be Very Bad.

    Khafar

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,544
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Dynamically created items require a ton more data to describe them.
    It wouldn't be that much actually, just a list of (stat-type, value) pairs. If you code it for space-efficiency you can probably get away with 3 bytes per stat (one for type, and two for value), so if we assume a maximum of 8 stats on a item we'd deal with 24 bytes per item, not much more than I assume is used for the customizable item name. Granted it's more likely that each stat would use 8 bytes instead as dealing with 16 bit floats isn't easy and alignment would encourage using a full int over a single byte. Still probably less than 1k per character in most cases.

    The other option would be to just store a RNG value with each item that is used as seed to a stat generating function if space is really that critical. Has other issues of course.

    But either way it would require a significant change to the underlying system, so it's unlikely to happen anytime soon.
    Used to play: 85 Champ / Captain / Runekeeper / Guardian, Guild Master of everything but cooking.
    Playing now: Hellcat / King Tiger / GW Panther / IS / KV-5 / M4 Sherman and more

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    12,677
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimdi View Post
    if we assume a maximum of 8 stats on a item we'd deal with 24 bytes per item, not much more than I assume is used for the customizable item name. Granted it's more likely that each stat would use 8 bytes instead as dealing with 16 bit floats isn't easy and alignment would encourage using a full int over a single byte. Still probably less than 1k per character in most cases.
    Customizable item names will be on only a small percentage of the total items for each character, so they're not a good yardstick. These would be everywhere throughout the system, and a 4-6X storage requirement for each item isn't trivial. Yes, it might be trivial per character, but the servers and databases have to handle lots of characters (and all of their items).

    Because of the way this game deals with open landscapes, the total amount of data kept for personal inventory is strictly limited... it caches all of it in server memory for fast response times, but has to persist changes and reload it whenever you're transferred to a different server in the cluster (something which can happen simply walking across the landscape). This has to be seamless and fast, no matter how many players are making server/server transitions at a given moment.

    That's why it took 6 years to get a 6th bag, and why the overflow bag won't take customized items at all (so its storage is highly compact - possibly just one 4-byte index and another byte for stack size per item). I was told by a Turbine developer maybe 5 or 6 years ago that they'd designed the system with a bit of "reserve", allowing them to expand per-character storage a wee bit while still staying within their performance envelope. But that reserve was small, and would have to last them the life of the game. Now that we've received the 6th bag and the overflow bag, I doubt we'll get any more.

    Khafar

 

 

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