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  1. #1
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    mephitic kiss, toxic carapace, and equivilent exchange

    first off, due to what i'm going to say here, I know i'm going to get flamed, whatever, the spider shaming has gotten stupid and i'll raise an issue nobody else has.

    when update 13 came out spiders were actually supposed to be a little stronger than they currently are, something that should have been done a long time ago was going to be implemented, something people had asked for continually for years and which would be trivial to program in. when it wasn't implemented I was quite disappointed, but I was fine because we also had a long awaited and much deserved buff. I didn't say anything because in the interest of fair play and balance, getting both things was too much. obviously the incoming nerf bat makes further silence on my part moot so no i'll raise the issue... Mephitic kiss

    Mephitic kiss was supposed to stack with more than one application, this excited many spiders especially those that had worked hard to get mephitic kiss and thought it was lame that even when a full group of high ranked spiders put it on something, only a single dot appeared, this one change was going to improve spider grouping dramatically.

    so my position is, if you are going to take away our ability to reflect dots and make the warden population of the moors explode again (yay) and make it so spiders have 10 times the bleeds thrown on them they currently do, then equivilent exchange... give us the ability to stack dots too the way we were supposed to.

    as an aside... I would like if the dots and debuffs from our pets stacked too, because even they don't stack.

    I think this is a fair exchange, to get something we've always wanted and been told we'd get if you are to sacrifice our dot reflect on the alter of freep tears.

    flame away
    Belolth Hisses with fury as venom drips from his maw, scorching the earth, "come manling, my brood hungers!"

    Broodlord of Ungoliant's Hatchlings, Devourer of souls.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by loki84 View Post
    first off, due to what i'm going to say here, I know i'm going to get flamed, whatever, the spider shaming has gotten stupid and i'll raise an issue nobody else has.

    when update 13 came out spiders were actually supposed to be a little stronger than they currently are, something that should have been done a long time ago was going to be implemented, something people had asked for continually for years and which would be trivial to program in. when it wasn't implemented I was quite disappointed, but I was fine because we also had a long awaited and much deserved buff. I didn't say anything because in the interest of fair play and balance, getting both things was too much. obviously the incoming nerf bat makes further silence on my part moot so no i'll raise the issue... Mephitic kiss

    Mephitic kiss was supposed to stack with more than one application, this excited many spiders especially those that had worked hard to get mephitic kiss and thought it was lame that even when a full group of high ranked spiders put it on something, only a single dot appeared, this one change was going to improve spider grouping dramatically.

    so my position is, if you are going to take away our ability to reflect dots and make the warden population of the moors explode again (yay) and make it so spiders have 10 times the bleeds thrown on them they currently do, then equivilent exchange... give us the ability to stack dots too the way we were supposed to.

    as an aside... I would like if the dots and debuffs from our pets stacked too, because even they don't stack.

    I think this is a fair exchange, to get something we've always wanted and been told we'd get if you are to sacrifice our dot reflect on the alter of freep tears.

    flame away
    An excellent idea.

    This seems like an excellent place to also suggest returning weaver DPS to a point where it no longer outperforms Reavers and BAs.

    This also seems like an excellent place to point out that Born of Shadow is not working as intended.
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  3. #3
    Wasn't it you who suggested the reflect on DoT's? Please stop making this kind of suggestions, it seems like they're actually listening.

    Instead of making more DoT's stack... How about reducing overall spider damage, and nerf Virulent Poison, Poison Spray, and Tainted Kiss to the ground?
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

  4. #4
    I think you are basing all of your ideas based on your inability to beat wardens once the DoT reflect is fixed. That sounds like a change for wardens is needed, not a buff to spiders.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    I think you are basing all of your ideas based on your inability to beat wardens once the DoT reflect is fixed. That sounds like a change for wardens is needed, not a buff to spiders.
    For what its worth, without using any reflects or burrow heals, the 2.5-3 weavers on my server who actually know how to play the class will beat my warden (and every other warden I've seen on the server) roughly 99.5% of the time. There are probably 2 ways a warden could approach the fight that might give them the advantage and a chance to win more than they lose against weavers, but I don't believe either would do so in less time than the cooldown on burrow is. I don't mind losing, or dying, or being the severe underdog against a particular class, the problem stems from the fact that if the most powerful physical class in the game has next to no chance, where does that leave everyone else? This is further complicated by the fact that a half handful of players of a specific class are SO much more effective than basically every other player of that class and yet the class is so bloody powerful that in most scenario's it doesn't even matter.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    For what its worth, without using any reflects or burrow heals, the 2.5-3 weavers on my server who actually know how to play the class will beat my warden (and every other warden I've seen on the server) roughly 99.5% of the time. There are probably 2 ways a warden could approach the fight that might give them the advantage and a chance to win more than they lose against weavers, but I don't believe either would do so in less time than the cooldown on burrow is. I don't mind losing, or dying, or being the severe underdog against a particular class, the problem stems from the fact that if the most powerful physical class in the game has next to no chance, where does that leave everyone else? This is further complicated by the fact that a half handful of players of a specific class are SO much more effective than basically every other player of that class and yet the class is so bloody powerful that in most scenario's it doesn't even matter.
    I think LM's are pretty much the only class with a fairly good chance of winning to a spider. BPE + miss chance is a killer for any physical class, but also insane mitigations and damage. Tactical classes go down even faster, and don't really have a chance without excessive self-healing.
    Feailuve - Akabath
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    This also seems like an excellent place to point out that Born of Shadow is not working as intended.
    Care to elaborate?
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exion_Blade View Post
    Care to elaborate?
    Tool tip says 10% mits, it gives 20%.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by loki84 View Post
    Lots of BS about spiders not being OP enough already

    I'd do what I normally do, and explain to you just how terrible your suggestion is, and how foolish you are if you genuinely believe spiders should in some way be rewarded in return for the loss of TC reflecting bleeds, but I won't.

    The Warden population may explode, unlikely, but I can't say it WON'T. What I can tell you for an outright fact is that no matter what happens to Wardens or any other freep class, it's not going to be as godmode as Weaver/Defiler are right now, and this "nerf" (making a ridiculous skill marginally less ridiculous) doesn't stop Weavers being totally godmode anyway.

    As for what Desolates is saying, he's right, the majority of decent spiders (of which BW has like 2) 1v1 win most fights. Vs Evilspinnre it's 50% win/lose. I've not really fought any other good spiders 1v1.

    As far as it goes though, full cooldown, Ward vs Weaver is an incredibly hard fight to win, if you're not spamming heals from the very start, you're done. If they burrow, to effectively start the fight over again, you're done unless you jump to blue line and faceroll them. If another creep comes in at any point what-so-ever in the fight, unless the Weaver is at 5k, you're done. The class has it's cake, eats it, and then eats some of your cake too.
    #15skills

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I think LM's are pretty much the only class with a fairly good chance of winning to a spider. BPE + miss chance is a killer for any physical class, but also insane mitigations and damage. Tactical classes go down even faster, and don't really have a chance without excessive self-healing.
    because all freeps don't have excessive self healing... all reflect even does is stop dot classes like wardens and lm's facerolling their damage out, they have to do it sustainably... and didn't someone in this thread say they should trait blueline on warden and "faceroll" the spider? seems to me they just want to buttonmash and not have any repercussions. the thing is all these people are crying about 1v1's, this game is not about 1v1's it's about grouping, otherwise we'd have an arena. and this would make spiders more viable to group with. and if we lose dot reflect but gain simple stackability for a basic skill when grouped then i'd say that freeps are getting the better of that deal. the trouble is, some people don't want compromise, they want to faceroll and have the game constructed around 1v1's as though it mattered when people self nerf at the circlejerks anyways...
    Belolth Hisses with fury as venom drips from his maw, scorching the earth, "come manling, my brood hungers!"

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by loki84 View Post
    seems to me they just want to buttonmash and not have any repercussions.
    Ironic coming from someone who thinks that spiders CC isn't good.
    Using CC to proper effect alone should guarantee you a kill 1v1 against any physically sourced opponent.

    #### Toxic Carapace, #### your mitigations, #### your DPS, #### your self heals and full heal burrow.

    You are the single most powerful class in the moors right now. Stop trying to advocate this idea that freeps don't want trade-offs when you don't even understand the maxims of your own class.


    Also, Equinnox, I rate cake/10.


    Weavers have:
    Best sustained DPS creepside
    Best moors-wide CC effects (Soft and hard CC effects, as well as utility CC like WtE)
    Second best debuffing utility (Struggling behind the defilers ability to spam the most idiotic ####)
    The best ability to mask debuffs
    The highest mitigations in the entire moors
    The most potent reflect effect this game has seen in over 7 years of PvP
    The highest and most potent BPE (Catch prey is not countered by the effects of finesse)
    Greatest in-combat base movement speed
    Greatest ability to escape multi-elevated situations


    In the case your opponents actually do some damage to you behind all of this other ####
    Chunky/decent sustainability:
    A flop skill that makes you untargetable for one minute and heals you enough to full heal yourself almost two times.
    An 11k on-defeat self-heal
    A 12k pet heal
    a 5k heal every 20sec (10k heal per fight, at least)
    The creepside morale pot also goes into effect better on the weaver than it does on the reaver (Relentless buff).

    There's so many weavers currently playing the the moors that the combined effect of their coordinated damage is almost unable to be healed through. You cannot effectively cure the debuffs from one target that is being focused by 5 weavers focusing damage and debuffs. It is also so much more of a bigger ##### to heal through than preventing the damage application from 5 reavers.

    I maintain my opinion that TC is not even a necessary skill to be part of the weavers skillset. They already have so much more #### that they can rely on.
    I'm still waiting for just ONE weaver to reasonably justify it's existence in the current game state.
    Last edited by Untg99; Jun 25 2014 at 09:37 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by loki84 View Post
    first off, due to what i'm going to say here, I know i'm going to get flamed, whatever, the spider shaming has gotten stupid and i'll raise an issue nobody else has.

    when update 13 came out spiders were actually supposed to be a little stronger than they currently are, something that should have been done a long time ago was going to be implemented, something people had asked for continually for years and which would be trivial to program in. when it wasn't implemented I was quite disappointed, but I was fine because we also had a long awaited and much deserved buff. I didn't say anything because in the interest of fair play and balance, getting both things was too much. obviously the incoming nerf bat makes further silence on my part moot so no i'll raise the issue... Mephitic kiss

    Mephitic kiss was supposed to stack with more than one application, this excited many spiders especially those that had worked hard to get mephitic kiss and thought it was lame that even when a full group of high ranked spiders put it on something, only a single dot appeared, this one change was going to improve spider grouping dramatically.

    so my position is, if you are going to take away our ability to reflect dots and make the warden population of the moors explode again (yay) and make it so spiders have 10 times the bleeds thrown on them they currently do, then equivilent exchange... give us the ability to stack dots too the way we were supposed to.

    as an aside... I would like if the dots and debuffs from our pets stacked too, because even they don't stack.

    I think this is a fair exchange, to get something we've always wanted and been told we'd get if you are to sacrifice our dot reflect on the alter of freep tears.

    flame away
    Im tickled pink this was good reading. BTW would you also like a warg to ride around or maybe stealth.

    Take away reflect on dots and spiders still in the best position they've ever been in, though i enjoyed spider babies over one pet
    A tree is a tree, a Rock is a rock and a Troll is Elmo

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by loki84 View Post
    first off, due to what i'm going to say here, I know i'm going to get flamed, whatever, the spider shaming has gotten stupid and i'll raise an issue nobody else has.

    when update 13 came out spiders were actually supposed to be a little stronger than they currently are, something that should have been done a long time ago was going to be implemented, something people had asked for continually for years and which would be trivial to program in. when it wasn't implemented I was quite disappointed, but I was fine because we also had a long awaited and much deserved buff. I didn't say anything because in the interest of fair play and balance, getting both things was too much. obviously the incoming nerf bat makes further silence on my part moot so no i'll raise the issue... Mephitic kiss

    Mephitic kiss was supposed to stack with more than one application, this excited many spiders especially those that had worked hard to get mephitic kiss and thought it was lame that even when a full group of high ranked spiders put it on something, only a single dot appeared, this one change was going to improve spider grouping dramatically.

    so my position is, if you are going to take away our ability to reflect dots and make the warden population of the moors explode again (yay) and make it so spiders have 10 times the bleeds thrown on them they currently do, then equivilent exchange... give us the ability to stack dots too the way we were supposed to.

    as an aside... I would like if the dots and debuffs from our pets stacked too, because even they don't stack.

    I think this is a fair exchange, to get something we've always wanted and been told we'd get if you are to sacrifice our dot reflect on the alter of freep tears.

    flame away
    Don't let the freeps bother you.

    Wardens enjoyed their years as the single most OP class in the game. Saw lots of long range, massive damage, unpottable warden dots and wardens tanking ridiculous amounts of creeps.

    They dotted and tanked away for years with no remorse...you keep reflecting while you have the chance. The nerf will eventually come so use it while you got it. All the freeps do when they're the OP ones.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
    Don't let the freeps bother you.

    Wardens enjoyed their years as the single most OP class in the game. Saw lots of long range, massive damage, unpottable warden dots and wardens tanking ridiculous amounts of creeps.

    They dotted and tanked away for years with no remorse...you keep reflecting while you have the chance. The nerf will eventually come so use it while you got it. All the freeps do when they're the OP ones.
    Of course everyone does it when they have it and why shouldnt they, but that doesnt mean turbine made the best decision when they put that in or even the wardens Op bleeds.

    thats really the bottom line.
    A tree is a tree, a Rock is a rock and a Troll is Elmo

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGENDofALL View Post
    Of course everyone does it when they have it and why shouldnt they, but that doesnt mean turbine made the best decision when they put that in or even the wardens Op bleeds.

    thats really the bottom line.
    Your bottom line needs to include Ugmo's accurate depiction of the time wardens had it. Years don't equate to months, while id rather not see any one toon OP freeps/wardens enjoyed it for a long, long time. We often hear about balance and lack there of, allowing the spiders to have this now and for a year or two longer seems to me, that in the long scope of the moors that would be balanced. Im not dismissing your point at all, but some of us, yourself included have a long memory. They took their sweet time fixing warden bleeds and blue line foolishness before it. The "fix bat" is coming pretty quick to creepside if you ask me.


  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    Your bottom line needs to include Ugmo's accurate depiction of the time wardens had it. Years don't equate to months, while id rather not see any one toon OP freeps/wardens enjoyed it for a long, long time. We often hear about balance and lack there of, allowing the spiders to have this now and for a year or two longer seems to me, that in the long scope of the moors that would be balanced. Im not dismissing your point at all, but some of us, yourself included have a long memory. They took their sweet time fixing warden bleeds and blue line foolishness before it. The "fix bat" is coming pretty quick to creepside if you ask me.
    Yes they do seem to fix creep mistakes faster then freeps and i always thought wardens bleeds got way out of hand but by not fixing something to make it even isnt the right way to handle things. they've nerfed captains some and are getting it done again so thats a good thing.

    I personally have a bigger issue with defilers then any class ive seen in a long time. BTW i have a spider and rank it to 10 3 years ago when it was a lot harder to play and honestly more fun because of the challenge. they needed love no doubt but thats excessive.
    A tree is a tree, a Rock is a rock and a Troll is Elmo

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    Your bottom line needs to include Ugmo's accurate depiction of the time wardens had it. Years don't equate to months, while id rather not see any one toon OP freeps/wardens enjoyed it for a long, long time. We often hear about balance and lack there of, allowing the spiders to have this now and for a year or two longer seems to me, that in the long scope of the moors that would be balanced. Im not dismissing your point at all, but some of us, yourself included have a long memory. They took their sweet time fixing warden bleeds and blue line foolishness before it. The "fix bat" is coming pretty quick to creepside if you ask me.
    What part of Blue line foolishness has actually been fixed? The situation is the same as always, a Shield warden can outheal through a swarm of creeps provided they don't have multiple impales, and they can't dps through a single competent healer.

    What 'fix bat' is coming to creepside? The change to TC isn't remotely close to a 'fix' for the class, just like the changes to wardens with HD wasn't remotely close to a 'fix'.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    I'd do what I normally do, and explain to you just how terrible your suggestion is, and how foolish you are ....
    Interesting. A player suggest a change and immediately the usual warden suspects show up and insult him. Way to go.
    I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people. ... I'm just saying let's remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    What part of Blue line foolishness has actually been fixed? The situation is the same as always, a Shield warden can outheal through a swarm of creeps provided they don't have multiple impales, and they can't dps through a single competent healer.

    What 'fix bat' is coming to creepside? The change to TC isn't remotely close to a 'fix' for the class, just like the changes to wardens with HD wasn't remotely close to a 'fix'.
    The foolishness technically hasn't been fixed, its just easier to kill a warden now after the new damage types creepside and mitigations rework. The "fix bat" are one of those phrases I use to induce others to quote it and asks silly pointed questions that demonstrate they didn't understand the intent of the initial post. Essentially, the point is, in general terms issues pertaining to creeps seem to be fixed or corrected quickly, unlike their freep counter parts. This is part of the whole cynic schticht where you make broad statements that are on the whole accurate but lack specific example due to laziness. You've just been given a window in to the meat and potato's of thousands of my posts, try and think a little outside your box once in a while Spelunker, being focused and specific is cool but missing context might make it seem like youre a rube, and we don't want that.


  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    Your bottom line needs to include Ugmo's accurate depiction of the time wardens had it. Years don't equate to months, while id rather not see any one toon OP freeps/wardens enjoyed it for a long, long time. We often hear about balance and lack there of, allowing the spiders to have this now and for a year or two longer seems to me, that in the long scope of the moors that would be balanced. Im not dismissing your point at all, but some of us, yourself included have a long memory. They took their sweet time fixing warden bleeds and blue line foolishness before it. The "fix bat" is coming pretty quick to creepside if you ask me.
    Perhaps they are learning as more and more people exit the game in general (not as a result of PvMP necessarily, leaving things as they are is not the best way to keep it. Freeps are not used to being the underdogs or dying as much as they are in the current moors and as such, have less tolerance for things being messed up in the moors. Creeps have always had an uphill climb and honestly have shown more resilience because of that even if it was understood that they were the underdogs as that was the design "plan" initially.

    Keeping things status quo to make up for imbalances in the past isn't a great idea, even if creeps feel it is making up for years of unbalanced game play.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames View Post
    Perhaps they are learning as more and more people exit the game in general (not as a result of PvMP necessarily, leaving things as they are is not the best way to keep it. Freeps are not used to being the underdogs or dying as much as they are in the current moors and as such, have less tolerance for things being messed up in the moors. Creeps have always had an uphill climb and honestly have shown more resilience because of that even if it was understood that they were the underdogs as that was the design "plan" initially.

    Keeping things status quo to make up for imbalances in the past isn't a great idea, even if creeps feel it is making up for years of unbalanced game play.
    Everyone is entitled to their opinion. They are updating the North downs and the trollshaws with their dev resources, what they are learning is keep investing in the strength areas (PVE zones) and maintain the functionality of weaknesses. Ive done all the QQing everyone else has, some much longer than I but ive put in my time on the forums trying to get change. For the most part, the moors has improved for creeps but im not willing to just say "its for the good of the game" not just yet. Hand out some more tubs of vasaline to the precious freeps and let them be GV camped a little longer. Whats the worse that's going to happen? More people flip to OP side? Already happening. More people leaving? Already happening. I'll take the pound of flesh now thanks, ive already donated mine from my wargs hide many updates ago.


  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    Everyone is entitled to their opinion. They are updating the North downs and the trollshaws with their dev resources, what they are learning is keep investing in the strength areas (PVE zones) and maintain the functionality of weaknesses. Ive done all the QQing everyone else has, some much longer than I but ive put in my time on the forums trying to get change. For the most part, the moors has improved for creeps but im not willing to just say "its for the good of the game" not just yet. Hand out some more tubs of vasaline to the precious freeps and let them be GV camped a little longer. Whats the worse that's going to happen? More people flip to OP side? Already happening. More people leaving? Already happening. I'll take the pound of flesh now thanks, ive already donated mine from my wargs hide many updates ago.
    Wargs have been in a good spot for a couple of years now you must be going way back for that to be brought up. your answer is your opinion but its no better answer then allowing them to do stuff like this in the first place.
    A tree is a tree, a Rock is a rock and a Troll is Elmo

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    The foolishness technically hasn't been fixed, its just easier to kill a warden now after the new damage types creepside and mitigations rework. The "fix bat" are one of those phrases I use to induce others to quote it and asks silly pointed questions that demonstrate they didn't understand the intent of the initial post. Essentially, the point is, in general terms issues pertaining to creeps seem to be fixed or corrected quickly, unlike their freep counter parts. This is part of the whole cynic schticht where you make broad statements that are on the whole accurate but lack specific example due to laziness. You've just been given a window in to the meat and potato's of thousands of my posts, try and think a little outside your box once in a while Spelunker, being focused and specific is cool but missing context might make it seem like youre a rube, and we don't want that.
    So the 'cynic schtick'(*) and notable quotables are designed to produce pointed questions. And when those questions actually directly support your generally broad statements, you suggest that they're missing the initial intent?
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGENDofALL View Post
    Wargs have been in a good spot for a couple of years now you must be going way back for that to be brought up. your answer is your opinion but its no better answer then allowing them to do stuff like this in the first place.
    oh indeed its my opinion but I think you with this response anyway, and others are a little quick to poo poo the sentiment. Its no secret I am a fan of theatrics but I don't want the community as a whole to rush so quickly to make adjustments to creep side for the betterment of the game. I sure as hell don't remember a whole lot of clamoring for tweeks when freeps had similar advantages on their end. I concede wargs, and every creep toon has enjoyed a lot of improvements over the years. Creeps are in a better spot now then ever, and its for that reason why I don't want to rush in and make unnecessary changes that can lead to "welp, we'll fix it next update". Creeps need to be handled with extreme delicacy because their sole purpose in LOTRO is to exsist in PvP. You can get away with screwing around with freeps every update because they have other avenues by which to enjoy the game. We've evolved here, a great many of our creep population are full time creep players. They log on specifically to play monster and provide every freep who desires it decent level cap alternatives to BB's, scaled instances and grinds. So it happens spiders are in a strong position at this time, Im okay with letting it ride another update, given the long history of unbalance we've had between the sides.


  25. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    6,072
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    So the 'cynic schtick'(*) and notable quotables are designed to produce pointed questions. And when those questions actually directly support your generally broad statements, you suggest that they're missing the initial intent?
    dependent on the wording of the question absolutely. Of course we are void of facial expressions, body language and tone of voice so the safe bet is always to assume the literal until its clarified. The trick is doing so in a manner that dosent suggest you've missed something obvious. As a wise man once said, "it isn't a lie if you believe its true". You following me now spelunker?


 

 
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