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  1. #126
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    You don't need a DPS meter to tell when someone doesn't know how to play their class, and when they are doing poor DPS or bad healing, or not holding threat like they should be.

    Of course I've been playing the game for several years now and I have developed a sixth sense for all that.
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    [color=blue]Last edited by Sapience; Aug 16 2010 at 12:12 PM.[/color][/size]
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  2. #127

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by ArahadEketta View Post
    Too many people are taught how to do things by rote and not how to figure out a problem on their own. These days too many people need a calculator to figure out what 6 times 6 is and can't even do it in their heads anymore. This is one of the biggest reasons why people are clammoring for these meters. You need a crutch to do all your thinking for you. Because that is exactly what these meters are. As a Field Artillery Surveyor my primary means of calculating a survey is with an electronic computing device. However, I was also taugh how to manually calculate my data using manual forms with 6 and 7th place Logrithmic tables because electronic means of computing while in combat could be rendered useless..
    No, thats your opinion, and a very hyperbolic one at that. Its just a fallacy that you create to suit your opinion and view. Soldiers of all branches are taught alternate means of manually calculating information and processing it in event of electronic means failure. As a young gunner on my PLs track I learned all to well the inner workings of my GAS on my Abrahms and how to manually calculate range and elevation. No I liked my GPS(primary site) and all the bells and whistles much better, but it didnt mean because I wanted and liked it I would be lost without it if need be.


    It has also been my experience that those people who needed addon's while playing a game are at a huge disadvantage when their "tools/crutches" break or get removed. In Asheron's Call back in the day it was common practice for quite a few people to not log in to the game for several days after a patch. Why you ask ddn't they log in? They did not log in because every time Turbine patched AC it broke Decal. It would typically take the Decal Dev's several days to get Decal (and it's plugin's) up and running again. Those of us not dependent on Decal to do our thinking for us had no problem with reverting to manually buffing ourselves and others or other tasks that usually got handled by the Decal plugin's.
    I dont see many people say they need or cant play without these, I see people say they want them. Some like to min/max, some like to work on strats for HM raids, or as a way to maximize time spent when raids go on "farm".

    Oh, and I have another reason I don't like meters. AC did not have dps/threat/healing meters (no need for them.) The one metric that was important in AC was Experience gained per hour. I have been denied entry into PotB fellows in AC because at the time I could not run Decal (I had a Win 98 machine and Decal required XP.) If you did not have a plugin running in the background that could track your xp per hour you could not get into quite a few XP fellows. The XP tracking plugin's even had chat commands where the Fellow leader could type out a command and your plugin would send out in fellow chat what your xp gain was. The abuse of Decal in AC is the biggest reason why Turbine did not allow 3rd party apps in LotRO and why they are being so cautious with Lua now. And for those of you who don't know, Asheron's Call pre-dates WoW by quite a few years (by MMORPG standards.)
    Again, this isnt WoW, this isnt AC. Did you ever think that after all these years without in Lotro, Turbine started to look around at what has made that other game so popular and maybe choose to implement them because they are popular to MMO gamers in general?

  3. #128
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by findorin-gilrain View Post
    Yes I can see you are out here...

    It has also been stated that this is a poor argument. so what?
    Why do you need to give them even more means to exhibit such behaviour? Are you saying that because one thing is wrong, it is OK to make even more things wrong? And still I see no reason why YOU NEED a meter? Is it because you feel you are not contributing enough to your group or is it to "highlight" to other players "why they are mediocre" and have to "improve" to be allowed to group with you?
    I never said I needed a meter. If you read my first post you would clearly see I disregard the use of the word need. But trolls don't read posts in their entireity and / or deliberately take it out of context.

    I want the meter because players are not being educated properly, and are not given enough information. If Turbine will not do this through game systems, I see no reason why we would reject an addon from doing it.
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  4. #129

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by ArahadEketta View Post
    Too many people are taught how to do things by rote and not how to figure out a problem on their own. These days too many people need a calculator to figure out what 6 times 6 is and can't even do it in their heads anymore. This is one of the biggest reasons why people are clammoring for these meters. You need a crutch to do all your thinking for you. Because that is exactly what these meters are. As a Field Artillery Surveyor my primary means of calculating a survey is with an electronic computing device. However, I was also taugh how to manually calculate my data using manual forms with 6 and 7th place Logrithmic tables because electronic means of computing while in combat could be rendered useless..
    Except we're not talking about real life here. Real life has the tendency of putting you in a situation where electronic devices are not available. Although, admittedly that's getting pretty rare now too. We're talking about a computer game - and while it's perfectly possible to tally up numbers in your head, it's not very efficient. In other words, doing the work in your head is perfectly fine if you have no other way to do it, but it's kinda silly to do it just for "pride" when there are quicker ways to do things

    Quote Originally Posted by ArahadEketta View Post
    It has also been my experience that those people who needed addon's while playing a game are at a huge disadvantage when their "tools/crutches" break or get removed. In Asheron's Call back in the day it was common practice for quite a few people to not log in to the game for several days after a patch. Why you ask ddn't they log in? They did not log in because every time Turbine patched AC it broke Decal. It would typically take the Decal Dev's several days to get Decal (and it's plugin's) up and running again. Those of us not dependent on Decal to do our thinking for us had no problem with reverting to manually buffing ourselves and others or other tasks that usually got handled by the Decal plugin's.
    But we're not talking about auto-gaming or bots here - just more information. Players would still have to play the game just like they have been - and would still have to do the work to reach that "magic number".

    Quote Originally Posted by ArahadEketta View Post
    Oh, and I have another reason I don't like meters. AC did not have dps/threat/healing meters (no need for them.) The one metric that was important in AC was Experience gained per hour. I have been denied entry into PotB fellows in AC because at the time I could not run Decal (I had a Win 98 machine and Decal required XP.) If you did not have a plugin running in the background that could track your xp per hour you could not get into quite a few XP fellows. The XP tracking plugin's even had chat commands where the Fellow leader could type out a command and your plugin would send out in fellow chat what your xp gain was. The abuse of Decal in AC is the biggest reason why Turbine did not allow 3rd party apps in LotRO and why they are being so cautious with Lua now. And for those of you who don't know, Asheron's Call pre-dates WoW by quite a few years (by MMORPG standards.)
    Yes, but again - Decal basically allowed the game to play itself - which is a lot more damaging to developer/players a like than any dps meter. I am curious however at how many times you've been denied access to a group in LotRO - whether it be due to traits, skills, stats, LI, or w/e. Your answer to that is roughly about the same result that meters would have. People that tend to exclude others will find a way to do it with whatever is currently available in the game. If anything keeps that number low it's the fact that this isn't a very competitive MMO as a whole - very casual for the most part.
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  5. #130
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by ArahadEketta View Post
    It has also been my experience that those people who needed addon's while playing a game are at a huge disadvantage when their "tools/crutches" break or get removed. In Asheron's Call back in the day it was common practice for quite a few people to not log in to the game for several days after a patch. Why you ask ddn't they log in? They did not log in because every time Turbine patched AC it broke Decal. It would typically take the Decal Dev's several days to get Decal (and it's plugin's) up and running again. Those of us not dependent on Decal to do our thinking for us had no problem with reverting to manually buffing ourselves and others or other tasks that usually got handled by the Decal plugin's.
    I take issue with this statement. Youa re misremembering.

    People did not log into AC after patch day, not because Decal was down, but because there was a tendency for rollbacks.
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  6. #131
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    LotRO [...] isn't a very competitive MMO as a whole - very casual for the most part.
    Many of us like the casual laid back atmosphere and community, and are fighting to keep it that way.

  7. #132
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    I take issue with this statement. Youa re misremembering.

    People did not log into AC after patch day, not because Decal was down, but because there was a tendency for rollbacks.
    I didn't UCM or use Decal, but I remember things a bit differently as well. A lot of people I played with loved patch days. Many people would lay out of work or school for the monthly events. AC was the only game I have ever played where I looked forward to patch days - those events were so much fun (even when you take into account the occasional rollback).




    That said, I do remember raids being canceled in WoW after patches if the major addons were not working at the time.
    Last edited by Bradd; Sep 13 2010 at 12:35 PM.

  8. #133

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    Many of us like the casual laid back atmosphere and community, and are fighting to keep it that way.
    But that's the entire point I'm trying to make. a DPS meter isn't going to turn this into a full scale competitive raiding game any more than the wardrobe is going to turn the game into the Sims. The majority of the playerbase does not raid, Turbine has never shown any intention of trying to change that, nor is there a reason for them to do so. Believe me, it's going to take a lot more to turn this game into an ultra-competitive raiding/pvp game than meters. No hardcore raider is going to stop running 40-mans and start doing LotRO 12 mans - just because it now has meters.
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  9. #134
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    But that's the entire point I'm trying to make. a DPS meter isn't going to turn this into a full scale competitive raiding game any more than the wardrobe is going to turn the game into the Sims. The majority of the playerbase does not raid, Turbine has never shown any intention of trying to change that, nor is there a reason for them to do so. Believe me, it's going to take a lot more to turn this game into an ultra-competitive raiding/pvp game than meters. No hardcore raider is going to stop running 40-mans and start doing LotRO 12 mans - just because it now has meters.
    You can say it won't change the community based on your experiences here and personal feelings about the meters, but you can't prove it. I believe that group meters will negatively affect the game and the community based on my previous experiences and personal feelings about the meters, but again, I can not prove it. Neither of us knows.

    For me, there is no risk the game or community will change as long as the status quo is maintained. There is a risk if group meters are introduced . I just don't feel it is worth the risk. I do not want the game to degrade into WoW with Hobbits.
    Last edited by Bradd; Sep 13 2010 at 12:51 PM.

  10. #135

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    DU, I know you have some background with the LUA scripting,

    Is it possible to have a fully plugged in meter than can be designed for someone to opt out if they wanted to? Maybe a way to script is so someone can op out of having their info displayed to others? That would be great for my kin we could have the full functionality of the API plug in for our raids and not bother anyone outside of it if they didnt want it.

  11. #136
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    If you want DPS meters, l2use cstats.
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  12. #137
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    DU, I know you have some background with the LUA scripting,

    Is it possible to have a fully plugged in meter than can be designed for someone to opt out if they wanted to? Maybe a way to script is so someone can op out of having their info displayed to others? That would be great for my kin we could have the full functionality of the API plug in for our raids and not bother anyone outside of it if they didnt want it.
    Is this not ignoring the social aspect of the problem? Would your raid group be willing to take two or three dps classes along who chose not to opt-in to your group's DPS Dashboard (!) Even if you did, do you not think that many other groups may not?
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  13. #138

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by findorin-gilrain View Post
    Is this not ignoring the social aspect of the problem? Would your raid group be willing to take two or three dps classes along who chose not to opt-in to your group's DPS Dashboard (!) Even if you did, do you not think that many other groups may not?
    LOL, so you are entitled to choose how and what we can do inside of our kin raids? Really?

    I dont PUG, I dont think anyone in our kin raiding groups pugs raids.

    Just trying to come up with some ideas here, but no, Im afraid we dont take non kinmates along on our kin raids regardless of whether they have it or not.

    Maybe thats the next stop to this rampant elitism, forcing kins to include random people in their raids!
    I kid, I kid

  14. #139
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    LOL, so you are entitled to choose how and what we can do inside of our kin raids? Really?

    I dont PUG, I dont think anyone in our kin raiding groups pugs raids.

    Just trying to come up with some ideas here, but no, Im afraid we dont take non kinmates along on our kin raids regardless of whether they have it or not.

    Maybe thats the next stop to this rampant elitism, forcing kins to include random people in their raids!
    I kid, I kid
    I think you misunderstood me. In no way was I telling you who to take on a raid. Where did you read that? You raised a point suggesting individuals could opt-out of contributing to a group meter in a raid and I was trying to understand how that might work. Please read carefully.
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  15. #140
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    I never said I needed a meter. If you read my first post you would clearly see I disregard the use of the word need. But trolls don't read posts in their entireity and / or deliberately take it out of context.
    OK I'll accept this. I was referring to your support of the OP's un-proven contention that the Game NEEDS meters, not necessarily that you personally do.

    I want the meter because players are not being educated properly, and are not given enough information. If Turbine will not do this through game systems, I see no reason why we would reject an addon from doing it.
    That's not the argument. Add-ons don't teach, teachers teach just like leaders lead. I don't believe that good teachers need meters, that publically display some limited and narrow-focused information to a group, to be able to teach nor do good leaders need them to be able to lead.

    History of the game over the last three years shows that people are being given enough information. The Lua improvements to show the information in a new way could be good. Sure more advice on grouping would be good, but in this case just go ahead and give the advice. I know three or four folks in my kin alliance who are excellent at that, always willing to help. And they are not necsaarily raid leaders. Those who want to learn will take heed, those who don't want to learn won't. What does the meter give you more than a way to publically "call out" someone?

    Can anyone make an answer to the following statement?
    Quote Originally Posted by findorin-gilrain View Post
    ...I am also certain that if meters do exist, at least group-wide meters, then end-game content will, in time, be balanced assuming everyone uses them. It will have to be otherwise the ultimate min/maxers will be turning over content too fast. This is why fellowship manoeuvres were nerfed - it was either that or balance the content for them in their (potentially) over-powered form. This is true for Threat and Healing meters as much as DPS meters.
    So the meters become, by default, complusory - which fundamentally changes the game and not for the better.
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  16. #141

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by findorin-gilrain View Post
    I think you misunderstood me. In no way was I telling you who to take on a raid. Where did you read that? You raised a point suggesting individuals could opt-out of contributing to a group meter in a raid and I was trying to understand how that might work. Please read carefully.
    It would work exactly how i described it would work.

    Please read carefully

  17. #142

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by findorin-gilrain View Post
    Can anyone make an answer to the following statement?
    I guess you would fist have to prove that statement to be true in a game with add ons. I would venture to guess that if you went on over to the WoW forums and claimed the game had become increasingly difficult and developed and raiding developed around add ons over time that you would get laughed off the forum in the very special WoW way.

  18. #143
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    It would work exactly how i described it would work.

    Please read carefully
    LOL. But I did, that is like the proverbial business manager asking the IT person for an answer to a problem. Technically it is how it would work, I grant you. But do you really think, in a raid situation where the leaders think the group meter is a good thing, they would allow one or two dps clases to opt out? I humbly suggest that in many many cases that would not happen, especially in a PUG.
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  19. #144
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    I guess you would fist have to prove that statement to be true in a game with add ons. I would venture to guess that if you went on over to the WoW forums and claimed the game had become increasingly difficult and developed and raiding developed around add ons over time that you would get laughed off the forum in the very special WoW way.
    OK so the logical conclusion I draw from that is, that if all meters were removed from the game, the raids would be no harder or more diffciult than they are if everyone does use the meters?
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  20. #145

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by findorin-gilrain View Post
    LOL. But I did, that is like the proverbial business manager asking the IT person for an answer to a problem. Technically it is how it would work, I grant you. But do you really think, in a raid situation where the leaders think the group meter is a good thing, they would allow one or two dps clases to opt out? I humbly suggest that in many many cases that would not happen, especially in a PUG.
    Lol. fair enough.

    Well we were not talking about a PUG were we? I understand were you are going, and if there are that many so against this meter I am sure there would be many raids that didnt use it, right?

  21. #146
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    No, thats your opinion, and a very hyperbolic one at that. Its just a fallacy that you create to suit your opinion and view. Soldiers of all branches are taught alternate means of manually calculating information and processing it in event of electronic means failure. As a young gunner on my PLs track I learned all to well the inner workings of my GAS on my Abrahms and how to manually calculate range and elevation. No I liked my GPS(primary site) and all the bells and whistles much better, but it didnt mean because I wanted and liked it I would be lost without it if need be.




    I dont see many people say they need or cant play without these, I see people say they want them. Some like to min/max, some like to work on strats for HM raids, or as a way to maximize time spent when raids go on "farm".



    Again, this isnt WoW, this isnt AC. Did you ever think that after all these years without in Lotro, Turbine started to look around at what has made that other game so popular and maybe choose to implement them because they are popular to MMO gamers in general?
    Do you remember all the bad habits your Drill Sgt's and MOS Instructor's had to beat out of you before you stopped relying on alot of civilian crutches.? There is a big reason why Civilian employers love to hire former members of the Military. Even those who have less experience in some jobs over someone who has never served but has more experience.

    As for your comment about this not being WoW or AC, that is correct. However, quite a few of us in this game have come from either one of those games prior to LotRO. It would also appear that the majority of you just based on the last two threads on meters want them for this game because they used them in WoW. I have no idea what it is like in WoW. I refused to abandon AC for WoW when it came out. However, I did have experiece with the "game world" that WoW is based off of and it was not something that I liked so by default I don't like WoW. The world that J.R.R. Tolkien devised is an entirely different kettle of fish though. I have been in love with the Lord of the Rings since 1973 and I like how Turbine has made the Story in most cases more important than the mechanics of this game. I have yet to come across any content in this game where it requires me some sort of diagnostic tool to figure out how to 1) accomplish the quest/raid and 2) have fun doing so. I don't need a dps or threat meter on my Hunter to determine when I should kill stuff or to back off. I don't need a healing or threat meter when on my Minstrel to optimize my healing of the group. I am not quite as good on my Captain, however I still don't need any meters to perform my required function in whatever group he is participating in. And in his case, he is not the primary for any of those functions but secondary or tertiary to someone else while providing support to the group.

    When in a Raid with my Hunter I don't really give a damn if another Hunter in the Raid is out-dpsing me. As long as I am helping to kill stuff and advancing the effort of the group who gives a damn. In fact, in many cases I find that in non-Kin groups with multiple Hunters in it I am usually the only one purging poison even from other Hunters.

    As I have said before, in LotRO there is NO pressing need for any meters suggested. It is not all that hard to figure out things in this game.
    Arthad Eketta Former Drill Sgt U.S. Army Reserves
    Shin Ki-jun on Turbine's Asheron's Call Morningthaw Server
    Officer of The Fellowship of the Rogues on the Brandywine Server

  22. #147
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    Jan 2007
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    Brampton, Ontario, CANADA
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    1,689

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by findorin-gilrain View Post
    That's not the argument. Add-ons don't teach, teachers teach just like leaders lead. I don't believe that good teachers need meters, that publically display some limited and narrow-focused information to a group, to be able to teach nor do good leaders need them to be able to lead.
    If the "LOTRO teachers" - whatever they are - did such a good job at teaching, why do most PUG groups fail to complete HM? Sometimes PUGs do, but true PUGs have constant issues.

    History of the game over the last three years shows that people are being given enough information. The Lua improvements to show the information in a new way could be good. Sure more advice on grouping would be good, but in this case just go ahead and give the advice. I know three or four folks in my kin alliance who are excellent at that, always willing to help. And they are not necsaarily raid leaders. Those who want to learn will take heed, those who don't want to learn won't. What does the meter give you more than a way to publically "call out" someone?
    I've already explained what the meter does. I don't feel like repeating myself
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/042080000001078d2/01001/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
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  23. #148

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    I want a cosmetic gear meter so I can tell if a player is wearing gear they should never have rolled on as a cosmetic item so I can avoid grouping with them. Oh sure Mr Rune-Keeper, Randirchol is a perfectly good RK cloak. What you already have Cloak of Shadow and Flame but you wanted another so you could have two colors without redying? That makes perfect sense!

    The gaming community wants cosmetic meters and we want them now!

    Also, more demon goats.

  24. #149

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Can't we already make DPS meters with the tools provided?

    1. Set up a shortcut in the appropriate PluginsData/<server,account,player> directory linking say... DPSMeter.plugindata (or whatever the extension is) to ./DPSMeter.plugindata

    2. Write a combat log parser that continually outputs the total amount of damage done to ./DPSMeter.plugindata.

    3. Start logging your combat log, and start your combat log parser and point it to the appropriate log.

    4. Write a lua script that keeps track of how long the current combat has been going on, and loads the total amount of damage done from DPSMeter.plugindata. You can store the total amount of damage done when combat started to determine the total amount of damage done in the current combat.

    Voila, you've got total damage done in the current combat, and total amount of time that the current combat has been going on for. That's pretty much a DPS meter. It'll be slow, clunky, and the entire setup is a terrible hack, but if you really, really want one, it should be doable.

  25. #150
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    Jul 2007
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    In the van... with candy.
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    4,036

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by moebius92 View Post
    Can't we already make DPS meters with the tools provided?

    1. Set up a shortcut in the appropriate PluginsData/<server,account,player> directory linking say... DPSMeter.plugindata (or whatever the extension is) to ./DPSMeter.plugindata

    2. Write a combat log parser that continually outputs the total amount of damage done to ./DPSMeter.plugindata.

    3. Start logging your combat log, and start your combat log parser and point it to the appropriate log.

    4. Write a lua script that keeps track of how long the current combat has been going on, and loads the total amount of damage done from DPSMeter.plugindata. You can store the total amount of damage done when combat started to determine the total amount of damage done in the current combat.

    Voila, you've got total damage done in the current combat, and total amount of time that the current combat has been going on for. That's pretty much a DPS meter. It'll be slow, clunky, and the entire setup is a terrible hack, but if you really, really want one, it should be doable.
    Basically CStats but with LUA support that gives you an in-game display and can more accurately judge the beginning and end of combat? I do believe that Asperity is already at work on expanding CStats in such a way. I personally look forward to it since CStats provides excellent information and still wouldn't be the group-wide meter that some treat as the holy grail of gaming.

    Other than that... I think that it is time for Tacos again.

    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

 

 
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