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  1. #101
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    I appreciate your honesty here and I think this strikes at the core issue with SOME here. Its not about the meters the add ons, its about WoW. Not about these types of add ons in Lotro.
    Honestly, it is about both.

    I played WoW before meters, and I played WoW after meters. I saw how the poliferation of meters and addons changed the gameplay and the community. Addons started controling the gamplay. People became obsessed with numbers. I don't want to see LOTRO turn into what WoW has become.

  2. #102
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    How will it be limited? Just by having a game based off of numbers and items gives elitists everything they need to "hurt people". If it isn't stats, it's traits, if it isn't traits, it's radiance, if it isn't radiance, it's the legacies on your LI...and so on and so forth. So why on earth would DPS suddenly be worse than any of these existing numbers that are available?
    I have seen it is WoW. The other things you mention are stuff. It is harder for people to claim they are better than someone else merely because of an item or trait. DPS meters give people a convenient measuring stick for comparing epeen. For some reason, the average player equates dps with skill. Unless human nature has miraculously changed, dps meters will make things worse just like they have in every other game.

    There are other games with meters and addons for people who like that gameplay, many of us would prefer LOTRO not go down that same path.
    Last edited by Bradd; Sep 13 2010 at 08:32 AM.

  3. #103
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    Should we do away with global chat? I mean that would mitigate "dickness" right? At some point blame has to be placed on the people involved in the activity. Again, I understand people dont "want them, just like there are many that do, but there is just no basis for the statements that they are the causation or enabler for someone being rude that would not otherwise be inclined to act that way.

    I find your comparisons to nuclear weapons and machine guns to be over the top hyperbole also.
    Of course it is - but it shows the argument that "it's not the fault of bad tools it's just the bad people" is a bad argument. A very bad argument.

    As far as global chat goes. Well, in most European servers there is no GLFF and if it exists almost nobdy uses it. Certainly not on Gilrain - a top quality server IMHO. OOC is for OOC so that's fine. So no harm would come from removing global chat channels apart from OOC. However I can also see the argument that, because of Turbine's poor group finding tools a global LFF channel is desired. The gain may outweigh the risk; the onus should be on Turbine to monitor it. I see no gain outweighing the risk on meters.

    I am also certain that if meters do exist, at least group-wide meters, then end-game content will, in time, be balanced assuming everyone uses them. It will have to be otherwise the ultimate min/maxers will be turning over content too fast. This is why fellowship manoeuvres were nerfed - it was either that or balance the content for them in their (potentially) over-powered form. This is true for Threat and Healing meters as much as DPS meters.

    So the meters become, by default, complusory - which fundamentally changes the game and not for the better.
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  4. #104

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    Honestly, it is about both.

    I played WoW before meters, and I played WoW after meters. I saw how the poliferation of meters and addons changed the gameplay and the community. Addons started controling the gamplay. People became obsessed with numbers. I don't want to see LOTRO turn into what WoW has become.
    Neither do I my friend. I have seen the changes to that community as well. I ask you to look objectively at the changes made to raiding that made it very accessible to pretty much the whole community as the single largest catalyst for the current state of that community along with the changes to pvp around that same time.

    These changes turned everything including raiding into full contact ultra competitive events in WoW. I offer that add ons where never the cause for the down turn in that community but the rapid increase in popularity thus population of more of the elitist less mature playerbase.

  5. #105

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    I'm of the opinion that the game doesn't "need" meters or other tools. The main reason being that they encourage what I see as bad behavior on the part of players in general.

    I'm one of those ancient gamers that cut his teeth in text games and did my first raiding when it took you 36 to 48 people to bring down a world boss on a 7-day respawn timer. I've been attending and leading raids in a lot of games since, including the big ones mentioned in this thread. During that time I've seen a lot of different tools added to games to "help" people become more effective raiders.

    Some tools, like an actual raid group or a raid UI that lets you move members around and handle loot distribution, are really helpful. Seriously beats using a /shout or /ooc channel and paper/pencil. I like those kinds of tools, they make everyone's life easier.

    Other tools, like DPS meters, aggro meters, debuff timers, auto-heal-rotation timers, and other things that people have dreamed up to help players play more effectively - to be honest, I don't think they really help as much as people think they do. The best raids I've ever experienced have been the ones without a lot of tools and macros, where everyone in the raid did their best, and knew their classes so well that we could adapt tactics on the fly, and we were able to pull out a victory even on content we'd never done before. That's not something you can teach with a tool.

    In my experience, the tools actually have the opposite effect. They "teach" players that there's only one way of playing their characters. They "teach" players that certain abilities should always be used in a certain order or a certain way. They prevent the out-of-the-box thinking that's sometimes necessary for taking on a new challenge. And worse, they lower everyone's tolerance for failure. If you want to be at the bleeding edge of raiding content in any game, you have to be willing to try different stuff, and fail, and try again, until you finally figure out how to beat it. I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm going to pay attention to my character so closely that I might find a DPS meter useful, I want to be the person writing the strategies for bosses that everyone else uses after I've figured it out, rather than just some schmoe who followed some guide posted on the internet and managed not to screw it up too badly. You want to have pride in something, take pride in overcoming a challenge the hard way, without relying on special tools to do it.

    As far as mediocre players in PUGs, this isn't a problem unique to this game, and a DPS meter isn't going to fix it either. The simple fact is that solo content doesn't teach the same (player) skills needed for group content, and so for anyone who solos up to the top and then starts fellowing, there's going to be a learning curve. I make it a point on almost every new character I start to run them through places like the Great Barrows or Fornost - why? Because it helps me learn how to really handle that character in a fellowship. Yeah, it's slower, and they don't shoot right up to 65. But it's still fun, and you meet a lot of good people doing it. You want a solution to mediocre PUGs? Get a friend or two and go start fellowships for group areas at all levels of the game. When you find someone who has trouble with FMs, or positioning, or breaking mezzes, or usin their abilities to the best potential - take the time to try and help them get better at it (in a nice way). Keep it up long enough, and not only will you probably not have mediocre PUGs anymore, you'll also probably have a massive friends list and never really need to PUG again.

    Anyway, my two cents on the topic.
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  6. #106

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    You know I read the Treads about Wow where People Where upset becuse the Groups required people to use Meters. I will I call them Blame meters. Becuse that what it seems to be use for. I think Turbine getting Rid of Radiance becuse it Brings in the WOW Gear score complaint. Oh if you dont have this much Radiance you can not join us. I know we heard it. Over and over. There like 10+ Pages from people who seem to be happy that it will be gone soon.

    I hope Turbine learn from that Mistake. I hope They read the Treads and see What meters can do. How they hurt people and how they can be used. Yes it sounds like a Nice Feature. But when it abused it Harms more then it helps.

    I dont want to watch People pointing fingers becuse someone who a RK made a snap Judgement call if a Mini dies and change DPS to Healing and get Booted becuse there Blame meter was not very High for them. I want that RK to make snap Judgements to Save a Fellowship or RAID.

    I still say We have to be teachers of Lotro.

    The addons we have now like One bag, or Notepad for lotro are Great.
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  7. #107
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    I have seen it is WoW. The other things you mention are stuff. It is harder for people to claim they are better than someone else merely because of an item or trait. DPS meters give people a convenient measuring stick for comparing epeen. For some reason, the average player equates dps with skill.
    Not always the average player; it includes most of those who want the meters it seems. Hence they use the meter to find the "mediocre" or "fail" people.

    The argument now seems to go "we already have lots of ways for dickheads to show they are dickheads, so what's the harm in a few more ways". This way lies the road to ruin imo.
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  8. #108
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Coradin View Post
    I'm of the opinion that the game doesn't "need" meters or other tools. The main reason being that they encourage what I see as bad behavior on the part of players in general.
    ...
    Anyway, my two cents on the topic.
    AAH - there is hope for the world after all! Thank you.
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  9. #109
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    NO!

    more werdz
    Join Date: February 2007 -Founder-

  10. #110

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    I have seen it is WoW. The other things you mention are stuff. It is harder for people to claim they are better than someone else merely because of an item or trait.
    Why is it any harder? If DPS supposedly doesn't mean everything, then it would therefore be just as little in that claim, as claiming your better because you have better stats (which comes from "stuff"). In case you haven't noticed - every piece of the game's mechanics revolves around numbers. Saying some numbers are good, while others are bad is just silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    DPS meters give people a convenient measuring stick for comparing epeen.
    A hammer gives people a convenient bludgeoning stick, despite how useful it is when used correctly, but it can also be used to make houses. Some may use a DPS meter to compare epeen (and really, unless you're one to feel easily inadequate, why should it matter?) but it can also be used to help fine tune your performance so that you can be the best you can be at playing your class. While I respect those who just want to play for fun, I also respect those who want to eek every last bit of performance out of their character - not for bragging, but for personal satisfaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    For some reason, the average player equates dps with skill.
    Well, under normal circumstances - if you're a DPS class...then it pretty much is synonymous. Obviously some encounters will require you to do more than just stand there and whack away at a mob...but...if it's their primary job...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    Unless human nature has miraculously changed, dps meters will make things worse just like they have in every other game.
    Here's the problem. If the average person believes that dps = skill, then the average person is already doing whatever they can to increase their dps. If someone is going to be elitist and look for an arbitrary reason to exclude people, they're already doing it. Giving someone an actual number isn't going to suddenly make more people do it. Human nature by its very definition means that it's something that happens regardless - and it's really not that hard to believe that it's always existed in MMOs, as long as they've revolved around numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    There are other games with meters and addons for people who like that gameplay, many of us would prefer LOTRO not go down that same path.
    Again, I'm really not seeing this so-called path you speak of. Are you really saying that someone posting DPS numbers will somehow destroy the community? But posting LIs, requiring radiance for 6mans and all traits at 10, as well as grinding for symbols/scrolls to get that last ounce of dps out is perfectly fine?

    I think you, and others are so hung up on some arbitrary number that the existence of what you fear is completely going by unnoticed ...because it isn't specifically a DPS number. You don't scream for people to stop selling/buying symbols for 70g, or to stop buying scrolls - or to stop posting their 2nd age LIs in glff - because that's just simply improving their character - but as soon as they mention a DPS number, then surely it's the end of days.

    Oh by the way - via the WoW Vault


    CombatGraph

    Cryect

    12-28-2005

    A customizable realtime DPS/HPS graph. If you've ever wanted1to visually see how your DPS is over ti...


    Note the date...WoW was released in February of that same year. So either a) you're lying about WoW before DPS meters, or the DPS meters were around for quite a while before people became obsessed with them. So that tends to tell me that it was the community makeup that lead to their popularity and subsequently "ruining the game" instead of the meters themselves.

    Just because a game has something does not mean it's the reason why the game was "ruined" - especially when it comes to WoW.
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  11. #111
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    No meters for me.

    if it does come to pass (which I doubt), I am already working on a counter-dps plugin. That way if I get into a group that requires a meter, then with my plugin, their group dps meter won't work anymore, or at least it won't be giving them data they can use to decide who's 'fail'
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  12. #112
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    I haven't read the whole thread, didn't need to. While I think PERSONAL meters that measured your own performance levels might be helpful on one level, I think having group meters and using them as a litmus is wrong and elitist, and violates the spirit of this game as it's been for the last 3+ years.

    There are classes in this game where DPS or Healing isn't all you do. I have alts for all classes, but my LM is my "main." Being a LM is a bit like being a pilot: you have relatively long stretches of doing nothing (or next to nothing) followed by several moments of frenetic activity. It's not simply a matter of flinging fireballs from my fingertips. I crowd control, I draw and distribute power, I debuff, I issue orders to my pet, I cure wounds and disease, I protect and recover folks from stuns...show me a meter that tells me how effective I am doing all that!

    Frankly, I smell a troll. Seems funny that someone who's been playing for a year should suddenly show up the weekend after the game goes F2P, with a sign-up date of this month, and with 3 posts...all in this thread. Yep, my trolly-sense is tingling big time.
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  13. #113
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    Why is it any harder? If DPS supposedly doesn't mean everything, then it would therefore be just as little in that claim, as claiming your better because you have better stats (which comes from "stuff"). In case you haven't noticed - every piece of the game's mechanics revolves around numbers. Saying some numbers are good, while others are bad is just silly.

    A hammer gives people a convenient bludgeoning stick, despite how useful it is when used correctly, but it can also be used to make houses. Some may use a DPS meter to compare epeen (and really, unless you're one to feel easily inadequate, why should it matter?) but it can also be used to help fine tune your performance so that you can be the best you can be at playing your class. While I respect those who just want to play for fun, I also respect those who want to eek every last bit of performance out of their character - not for bragging, but for personal satisfaction.
    I agree it is a grey area. A knife in the hand of a bad person can harm people. A handgun can harm more. A fully automatic machine gun can harm even more. A personal thermonuclear could harm on a vast scale. Where you draw the line on what you believe should be allowed in society is a personal choice based your own opinion of the benefits and harm of each.

    I have seen first hand that group dps meters give people a epeen measuring stick. I have seen first hand how people denegrate others based on that epeen measuring stick. I have seen how players change how they play to place higher on the epeen measuring stick (even if it means refraining from using non-dps skills). For me, the harm outweighs the benefits - but I agree it is a personal choice.

    As an aside, my concerns are based on group meters. I have no objection whatsoever to personal meters for self improvement only.



    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    Well, under normal circumstances - if you're a DPS class...then it pretty much is synonymous. Obviously some encounters will require you to do more than just stand there and whack away at a mob...but...if it's their primary job...
    A RK who removes corruption, casts Do Not Fall to XXX, etc. will be lower on the meter than one who DPSes exclusively. If the RK who exclusively DPSes is praised because of his high DPS (based on the assumption "it's their primary job"), the better RK (who uses all of his skills) will have an incentive to only DPS as well.

    I lived that in WoW. After I saw how the meters were glorified, I always topped the heal meter because I knew how to play to the meter (use group heals, avoid HoTs, never cleanse when you can heal, etc.). I am not afraid of meters, I just don't like what they do to gameplay or to the community.


    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    Oh by the way - via the WoW Vault

    Cryect

    12-28-2005

    A customizable realtime DPS/HPS graph. If you've ever wanted1to visually see how your DPS is over ti...


    Note the date...WoW was released in February of that same year. So either a) you're lying about WoW before DPS meters, or the DPS meters were around for quite a while before people became obsessed with them. So that tends to tell me that it was the community makeup that lead to their popularity and subsequently "ruining the game" instead of the meters themselves.
    WoW released in the U.S. on Nov 23 2004, over a year before that addon was released (and I am not sure that was even a group meter). While I will not assert that group dps meters were the only reason the community degraded over time, IMHO, they were a contributing factor.
    Last edited by Bradd; Sep 13 2010 at 10:52 AM.

  14. #114
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    The use of meters in a game comes under the philosophy of "Teaching to the Test." Here in the People's Democratic Republic of Massachusetts the be all/end all for the Public School System is the MCAS. All students here are required to take the MCAS and passing this test is the requirement to advancement and graduation. Every Public School here in the People's Repubic is graded on their MCAS scores. This has lead Teachers to only teach subject matter that is on the MCAS or to place too much emphasis on the most likely questions that will be on the MCAS. Since the students are only being taught to pass the questions on the test they are not being taught to use their own thought prossesses to get their own results.

    As a former Drill Sgt I also have a lot of experience with "teaching to the test." In this case it is the End of Cycle test that all Basic Trainees take. The EOC test has/had 18 tasks that are always tested on it with about 5 to 10 that got rotated in. As long as the BT successfully got 1st time go's on the core 18 they passed the test. Back to the bolded sentence above. In alot of the 18 core tasks there can be multiple ways to accomplish that task. However, for the EOC there is one and only one specific way to perform each of those tasks. Some of us Drill Sgt's would take the additional time to show other means of accomplishing these tasks however there were many more who would only teach the EOC standards.

    One of the tasks for the EOC consists of 2 seperate skills. The 1st one is 071-325-4425: Employ an M18A1 Claymore Mine with the 2nd being 071-325-4426: Recover an M18A1 Claymore Mine. This is tested on each and every EOC. There are actually quite a few ways you can successfully perform these tasks while still doing it correctly. However, for the EOC there is exactly one and only one correct way to perform this task and get a go at this station. That is the Meter for this dps function. That is what dps/threat/healing meters are going to lead to in LotRO if they show up in our game.

    edit: As an example for the Claymore, many trainee's are taught to repeat, word for word the exact steps and to say them outloud. If they deviate in any way they (depending on the flexibility of the tester) could get a no-go for that task.
    Last edited by ArahadEketta; Sep 13 2010 at 10:48 AM.
    Arthad Eketta Former Drill Sgt U.S. Army Reserves
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  15. #115

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by ArahadEketta View Post
    The use of meters in a game comes under the philosophy of "Teaching to the Test." Here in the People's Democratic Republic of Massachusetts the be all/end all for the Public School System is the MCAS. All students here are required to take the MCAS and passing this test is the requirement to advancement and graduation. Every Public School here in the People's Repubic is graded on their MCAS scores. This has lead Teachers to only teach subject matter that is on the MCAS or to place too much emphasis on the most likely questions that will be on the MCAS. Since the students are only being taught to pass the questions on the test they are not being taught to use their own thought prossesses to get their own results.

    As a former Drill Sgt I also have a lot of experience with "teaching to the test." In this case it is the End of Cycle test that all Basic Trainees take. The EOC test has/had 18 tasks that are always tested on it with about 5 to 10 that got rotated in. As long as the BT successfully got 1st time go's on the core 18 they passed the test. Back to the bolded sentence above. In alot of the 18 core tasks there can be multiple ways to accomplish that task. However, for the EOC there is one and only one specific way to perform each of those tasks. Some of us Drill Sgt's would take the additional time to show other means of accomplishing these tasks however there were many more who would only teach the EOC standards.

    One of the tasks for the EOC consists of 2 seperate skills. The 1st one is 071-325-4425: Employ an M18A1 Claymore Mine with the 2nd being 071-325-4426: Recover an M18A1 Claymore Mine. This is tested on each and every EOC. There are actually quite a few ways you can successfully perform these tasks while still doing it correctly. However, for the EOC there is exactly one and only one correct way to perform this task and get a go at this station. That is the Meter for this dps function. That is what dps/threat/healing meters are going to lead to in LotRO if they show up in our game.
    Our whole societies learning structures are built around these types of tests and it doesnt make our college students robots and I dont agree with your anology here.


    No offense, but the "real" training happens when young privates go down range to their units.

    And you also know that your most important roles in training these young soldiers does not lie in their ability to deal with exact taskings and go/no go but to mold them mentally and physically to the rigors of military life. The greatest asset on the modern battlefield is our young soldiers ability to adapt to the realities of insurgent warfare. The basic training model of the last 30 years has done nothing to prepare soldiers for the realities of the modern battlefields. You can ask any battalion commander that has led soldiers down range in one of the sandboxes what they value most in their young squadleaders and team leaders, and too a tee they will tell you its their ability to adapt to these changing conditions on the battlefield.
    Last edited by Cerataindisaster; Sep 13 2010 at 11:09 AM.

  16. #116
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    Our whole societies learning structures are built around these types of tests and it doesnt make our college students robots and I dont agree with your anology here.
    I disagree. When I went to school, we were taught HOW to think. Now, in many schools, kids are taught WHAT to think. There is a vast difference between the two, and we as a society are suffering as a result.
    Last edited by Bradd; Sep 13 2010 at 11:08 AM.

  17. #117

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    I disagree. When I went to school we were taught HOW to think. Now kids are taught WHAT to think. There is a vast difference between the two, and we as a society are suffering as a result.
    Oh come on now. Thats just not true. One generation always thinks it did things "the right way" when looking at the next.

  18. #118

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Everyone knows who the "weak links" are. The raid leader certainly can figure it out if they have any just business leading a real raid.

    These meters are just for those that don't have the kahones to take care of business and need some type of excuse to fall back on. If you see a weak link, teach them to improve, or excuse them from further duty.

    You don't have to cower behind some excuse meter.
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  19. #119
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    And you also know that your most important roles in training these young soldiers does not lie in their ability to deal with exact taskings and go/no go but to mold them mentally and physically to the rigors of military life. The greatest asset on the modern battlefield is our young soldiers ability to adapt to the realities of insurgent warfare.
    The prblem is, that by teaching to the test (or relying on meters), you are not teaching people to react to new situations, just how to follw specific patterns. It can have negative consequences.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    Oh come on now. Thats just not true. One generation always thinks it did things "the right way" when looking at the next.
    Maybe so. But, to be honest, my wife is a teacher, and based in large part on what she saw as a failure in the education system and teaching to the tests, we sent our son to a private school. She saw how teachers learned what subjects were most often tested on the CRCC, and then only taught those subjects so thier test scores would be high (teachers are graded on their students scores). We did not want that for our son.

    It paid off, he was given a broad education (constructive thinking, ethics, liberal arts, languages, math and science), As a result, he made a perfect 2400 on his SAT as a high school junior. It was beneficial to him in other ways as well. He does not take what he is told or hears on TV at face value. He thinks for himself. If he had only been taught the subjects on the CRCC, and WHAT to think, he would not have learned HOW to think.
    Last edited by Bradd; Sep 13 2010 at 11:26 AM.

  20. #120

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    I agree it is a grey area. A knife in the hand of a bad person can harm people. A handgun can harm more. A fully automatic machine gun can harm even more. A personal thermonuclear could harm on a vast scale. Where you draw the line on what you believe should be allowed in society is a personal choice based your own opinion of the benefits and harm of each.
    But a knife can be a general domestic tool, while a gun can be a useful tool (i.e. hunting for food) in the wild. Anything beyond that and the only use is killing. machine guns and nuclear weapons were created for only one reason - killing other people more efficiently. Much like your earlier examples of being able to buy end game gear, and have bots are designed exclusively to let you compromise whatever challenge/time would normally be required - while meters - especially personal ones, have a legitimate use for fine tuning your play. Sure it can be abused, and at least some percentage probably will - but you don't blame the item for people abusing it no more than you blame a liquor store for alcoholics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    I have seen first hand that meters do give people a epeen measuring stick. I have seen first hand how people denegrate others based on that epeen measuring stick. I have seen how players change how they play to place higher on the epeen measuring stick (even if it means refraining from using non-dps skills). For me, the harm outweighs the benefits - but I agree it is a personal choice.
    Nobody - or at least I'm not saying you have to like them - I do believe that any addon should be a personal choice, and anybody that "requires" one can stick their addon where the sun doesn't shine. But the point remains that as long as there are numbers that denote performance, or the capability for performance - epeens will be measured. Giving them another method won't make them any worse. That being said, everybody has a choice how they're going to act or react to it. If the absolute hatred of these things are as widespread as these threads seem to indicate, then there's no possible way that it will reach even close to WoW proportions. At the absolute worst, there will be a segment of the player base that refuses to deal with them/require them - and both sides can play the game the way they want to. Unless of course you imagine that seeing a DPS meter is going to turn you into a crazed DPS addict? No I didn't think so



    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    A RK who removes corruption, casts Do Not Fall to XXX, etc. will be lower on the meter than one who DPSes exclusively. If the RK who exclusively DPSes is praised because of his high DPS (based on the assumption "it's their primary job"), the better RK (who uses all of his skills) will have an incentive to only DPS as well.
    Of course! Even hunters should be ready to apply their poison removal in certain instances. But the thing is that those people who would be focusing just on DPS, are already doing so. Anybody who rolls a DPS class is going to make getting as much DPS their primary goal - even if it's just to see those big numbers pop up. Even still, it could still be used with the whole picture in mind - for instance, if I need to cast Do Not Fall to XXX, or the blade will not XXX, what's the next skill I could use that has the shortest delay, but does the most damage? See, it is more than possible to use such a thing responsibly - without making a class one-dimensional. Those who do play one-dimensionally, are probably doing so right now.

    But yet there are still plenty of kins out there that are all about just having fun - while trying to get that strategy down. There are plenty of kins that wouldn't require such meters - it's by large those players that put performance above all else - something that's a relative minority in this game. Not because it doesn't have such meters, but because the end game itself is nowhere near as big of a deal as raiding is in WoW, and PvP is practically a joke here in comparison. If you set up an environment where beating the end game is something you have to do to get any respect whatsoever, and kins require more paperwork and interviews than a 50k salary job, then it stands to reason that such a game would be more interested in putting performance above everything else.

    LotRO isn't the same type of game - and probably never will be. The focus in LotRO is primarily the story, and although there are challenging raids - the majority of the population treats raids in the same way as a festival - something to "experience". Turbine has made no effort to make the game attractive to the victory above all else crowd, so to think that LotRO's playerbase will suddenly become DPS fiends, when a good chunk of them probably don't even know what DPS stands for, let alone why it might be important, is a little hard to believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    I lived that in WoW. After I saw how the meters were glorified, I always topped the heal meter because I knew how to play to the meter (use group heals, avoid HoTs, never cleanse when you can heal, etc.). I am not afraid of meters, I just don't like what they do to gameplay or to the community.
    Again, I really think it had more to do with the makeup of the community, and the type of players the game itself attracted than the meters. A community that either puts success over fun, or the only way they have fun is by succeeding - is more likely to use such meters to judge and exclude others. While there are elements of such types of players in this game - it's certainly not going to become widespread as long as skirmishes are just as rewarding as 12 man raids, and crafting nearly is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    Unless I am mistaken, and I do not believe I am, WoW released in the US in Nov 2004, over a year before that addon was released.
    You're correct on that - I saw the wrong date. However, considering that WoW's entire user interface is Lua based, I find it unlikely that this was the first DPS meter released for the game - that date happens to be the oldest date at wow.ignvault.com, and due to the ever-changing nature of WoW's API, finding old addons is easier said than done.
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  21. #121

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    Maybe so. But, to be honest, my wife is a teacher, and based in large part on what she saw as a failure in the education system and teaching to the tests, we sent our son to a private school. She saw how teachers learned what subjects were most often tested on the CRCC, and then only taught those subjects so thier test scores would be high (teachers are graded on their students scores). We did not want that for our son.

    It paid off, he was given a broad education (constructive thinking, ethics, liberal arts, languages, math and science), As a result, he made a perfect 2400 on his SAT as a high school junior. It was beneficial to him in other ways as well. He does not take what he is told or hears on TV at face value. He thinks for himself. If he had only been taught the subjects on the CRCC, and WHAT to think, he would not have learned HOW to think.
    I just dont think you give these young people enough credit. There are standards like these tests that HAVE to be met by law or in order for these schools to receive federal funding, it in no way implies that they are unable to think for themselves. I have gone back to college after my ETS from the army and I assure you there is no lack of thoughtful self aware students running around who can think for themselves.

  22. #122
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    I see the usual trolls are out here with arguments that are more insults and incredibly unproductive. Ignoring that, but RingOfFire makes a good post.

    Quote Originally Posted by RingOfFire View Post
    Why are "skill problems" so important? Here in LOTRO, the important thing is to have fun. Some find it fun to simply be successful in crafting. Others find it fun to hang out with others in a social environment. There are those who find it fun to run challenging group content. Others find it fun to max out their characters in every aspect possible. There are still others who find it fun to raid in challenging content.

    In other words, not everyone needs to be highly "skilled" to have fun. In fact, that group which may be throwing itself against some hard content again and again, and constantly wiping, may actually be having fun!
    There are different kinds of fun, I agree. That is why there is so many different playstyles. But wiping is -not- fun. It is frustrating and a waste of time.

    Not everyone wants others to give them advice on how to play better, and that usually only works out if said players ask for that advice. In rare cases, privately (and politely) asking them to change something in their skill rotation or other area may be warranted, but I cannot see any other reasonable alternative which works outside of the appropiate kinds of groups (min/maxers and dedicated raiders, for examples).
    This is what I call the casual ego. You're in a group of 3, 6, 12, or 24 people. You are part of a team. Your performance now affects 2, 5, 11, or 23 other people. If you are being mediocore, or doing something wrong, it's no longer just about you. Drop the casual ego and think of the people you are playing with.

    A group DPS meter throws that out the window entirely, and may not always fix the problem. In the right hands it may have the potential to do some good... but once added to the game, it will come into the hands of those who would rather use that in insolent ways, guaranteed. In such a situation it will do far more harm than it can good.

    As mentioned by another person in this thread, there is currently a functioning, third-party, optional opt-in version of what the OP is asking for. That is more than enough.
    It has been stated in this thread before and I'll re-state it: the individuals who would abuse meters, are already exhibiting poor behaviour without them. Meters won't make any difference in this regard.
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  23. #123
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    Our whole societies learning structures are built around these types of tests and it doesnt make our college students robots and I dont agree with your anology here.


    No offense, but the "real" training happens when young privates go down range to their units.

    And you also know that your most important roles in training these young soldiers does not lie in their ability to deal with exact taskings and go/no go but to mold them mentally and physically to the rigors of military life. The greatest asset on the modern battlefield is our young soldiers ability to adapt to the realities of insurgent warfare. The basic training model of the last 30 years has done nothing to prepare soldiers for the realities of the modern battlefields. You can ask any battalion commander that has lead soldiers down range in one of the sandboxes what they value most in their young squadleaders and team leaders, and too a tee they will tell you its their ability to adapt to these changing conditions on the battlefield.
    Too many people are taught how to do things by rote and not how to figure out a problem on their own. These days too many people need a calculator to figure out what 6 times 6 is and can't even do it in their heads anymore. This is one of the biggest reasons why people are clammoring for these meters. You need a crutch to do all your thinking for you. Because that is exactly what these meters are. As a Field Artillery Surveyor my primary means of calculating a survey is with an electronic computing device. However, I was also taugh how to manually calculate my data using manual forms with 6 and 7th place Logrithmic tables because electronic means of computing while in combat could be rendered useless..

    It has also been my experience that those people who needed addon's while playing a game are at a huge disadvantage when their "tools/crutches" break or get removed. In Asheron's Call back in the day it was common practice for quite a few people to not log in to the game for several days after a patch. Why you ask ddn't they log in? They did not log in because every time Turbine patched AC it broke Decal. It would typically take the Decal Dev's several days to get Decal (and it's plugin's) up and running again. Those of us not dependent on Decal to do our thinking for us had no problem with reverting to manually buffing ourselves and others or other tasks that usually got handled by the Decal plugin's.

    Oh, and I have another reason I don't like meters. AC did not have dps/threat/healing meters (no need for them.) The one metric that was important in AC was Experience gained per hour. I have been denied entry into PotB fellows in AC because at the time I could not run Decal (I had a Win 98 machine and Decal required XP.) If you did not have a plugin running in the background that could track your xp per hour you could not get into quite a few XP fellows. The XP tracking plugin's even had chat commands where the Fellow leader could type out a command and your plugin would send out in fellow chat what your xp gain was. The abuse of Decal in AC is the biggest reason why Turbine did not allow 3rd party apps in LotRO and why they are being so cautious with Lua now. And for those of you who don't know, Asheron's Call pre-dates WoW by quite a few years (by MMORPG standards.)
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  24. #124
    Join Date
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    This is the part of the thread where I say:

    1: Evandale wrote
    Damage = α·β·δ·(y%·(dmg + σ·max dmg·(0.335 + 0.001·ε - 0.000000335·ε^2)) + x)
    Which make him more awesome than everyone in this thread combined. This guy has forgotten more about damage mechanics (and figuring them out) than most players know, so the fact that he posted in this thread makes it automatically awesome. The old DPS meter thread is dead, long live this thread. PS: Hi Evandale, thanks again for the damage formula.

    2: SaintBass is awesome and well informed.

    His opinion is a well-informed one and he likes tacos very much. You should like tacos, too.

    3: I am sober

    Which arguably sucks.

    4: DPS Tools Exist.

    CStats is good, Lotro DPS Evil sounds good, I haven't tried it yet, b/c I was busy this weekend asking my g/f's dad if I could marry my g/f. (He said yes, so yay, but now I'll be broke, and playing alot of LOTRO for free while eating PB&J's to pay off this ring!) But anyway, the tools are there for those that want them. It covers most of the bases, so, we while I'd like CHAT LOG IMPROVEMENTS so that these tools can be BETTER, we're pretty OK at the moment.

    5: Is it worth pissing people off?

    I say no. I hate failpugs as much as the next guy, but me having a parser won't help the players in that pug. I'll help those players w/o the tool, b/c I don't need the tool to help them. I can offer my advice, link them to forums, posts, etc, all w/o a score.

    These tools help players improve rotations in RAIDS, vs content that's a DPS race (which is actually kinda rare in LOTRO, to be frank.)

    I want the tools for THAT. And viola, they exist. I want those tools to be better, too, and they're limited by the game in that regard.

    I could care less about Grand Stairs. And everyone else should, too. You want to help a player that needs help? You don't need a tool. Use your knowledge of the game for awesome - teach a new player the game, show them the digital ropes.

    MENTOR.

    It is just a game, but we're all people. As SaintBass said: give a fish, teach to fish. Be proactive. Be a leader.

    Save the nuance for where it's needed.

    Or your moms, they're good like that:

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  25. #125
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    I see the usual trolls are out here with arguments that are more insults and incredibly unproductive. Ignoring that, but RingOfFire makes a good post.
    Yes I can see you are out here...
    It has been stated in this thread before and I'll re-state it: the individuals who would abuse meters, are already exhibiting poor behaviour without them. Meters won't make any difference in this regard.
    It has also been stated that this is a poor argument. so what?
    Why do you need to give them even more means to exhibit such behaviour? Are you saying that because one thing is wrong, it is OK to make even more things wrong? And still I see no reason why YOU NEED a meter? Is it because you feel you are not contributing enough to your group or is it to "highlight" to other players "why they are mediocre" and have to "improve" to be allowed to group with you?
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