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  1. #76
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    "Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement. If you can't measure something, you can't understand it. If you can't understand it, you can't control it. If you can't control it, you can't improve it."
    - H. James Harrington
    That's a great quote.

    Unfortunately, DPS meters don't lead to control. They lead to "bigger is better" epeen contests. So while they will likely result in improved DPS it will likely come at the cost of other factors. Group content isn't just about DPS. It's healing, debuffing, agro management, positioning, CC, etc. Sticking a silly meter in the game will just cause all that to go out the window. The DPS classes will just go all out and when the wipes come it will be somebody else's fault because it certainly wasn't the fervour champ breaking all the mezes pulling agro because he was doing 900 dps. I mean he did good, the meter says so....

    Seriously, I just don't get the "it will lead to better players" argument. The game isn't just DPS. The biggest problem I see in pugs isn't that players can't DPS, it's that they don't do the other things. A DPS meter will just make it worse not better.

    Again, great quote. Now make me a meter that measures all group factors and we're on to something.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000001396ea/01007/signature.png]Malmegil[/charsig]

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  2. #77

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by KenR View Post
    That's a great quote.

    Unfortunately, DPS meters don't lead to control. They lead to "bigger is better" epeen contests. So while they will likely result in improved DPS it will likely come at the cost of other factors. Group content isn't just about DPS. It's healing, debuffing, agro management, positioning, CC, etc. Sticking a silly meter in the game will just cause all that to go out the window. The DPS classes will just go all out and when the wipes come it will be somebody else's fault because it certainly wasn't the fervour champ breaking all the mezes pulling agro because he was doing 900 dps. I mean he did good, the meter says so....

    Seriously, I just don't get the "it will lead to better players" argument. The game isn't just DPS. The biggest problem I see in pugs isn't that players can't DPS, it's that they don't do the other things. A DPS meter will just make it worse not better.

    Again, great quote. Now make me a meter that measures all group factors and we're on to something.
    Well honestly the most widely used meters used in WoW measure much more than dps. They include many useful statistics that pertain to group play that have nothing to do with DPS. DPS is only one facet of these more inclusive tools.

  3. #78
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    So you get to be all upset about his statement but yet get to come back calling others jerks. Thats the problem with this game community. This false sense of maturity and greatness over other games. Plenty of elitist attitudes around here, and I am not talking about player skill.

    I completly agree with this, i made a suggestion on the forums of the game that everyone says has a "adult mature community" and ive got more hate responses than I ever would on the wow (immature) forums.

    thats why i said fanboys when i did, because everytime i or someone else has mentioned a meter we get flamed to death because were "elitist". I dont spam my dps to /flex and if i did it would be friendly competition. Its starting to smell like alot of people are scared of any kind of competitiveness or were told to practice in another game and got butt hurt.

    I want a meter for my personal use, I dont really plan on raiding in this game because from what I read on the forums the loot isnt worth it, I just want to know which skills give the best bang for the buck.

  4. #79
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    I disagree with the use of the word 'need' but your conclusions are more or less correct.

    The single largest problem LOTRO suffers from is mediocore players. Not all of this is the players fault. There is a significant lack of information amongst the players and how they interact with the world. Things like meters and diagnostic tools would help considerably with this.

    If you don't think this is the case, just compare kin and PUG runs. Do people in kinships possess such superior coordination, are more skilled at pressing buttons than PUGs? There is a coordination difference, but if everyone knows their class, much content should be easily doable. But it's not. I can't tell you how many bad PUGs I've been in since F2P launch. I explained the entire strategy to them, they all understood, but they still managed to fail miserably.

    Enough is enough.

    If Turbine will not make a concerted effort to improve their own players, then we, the community, need to do it ourselves. Being all positive and saying 'it's ok, it's just a game' will only lead to the mediocrity and frustration of PUGs.

    Let's make PUGs fun again. Bring on the tools.
    We do not need or want meters in LOTRO.

    Lotro does not suffer from mediocre players, LOTRO does not suffer period.
    We tollerate players of all levels and skills.

    And the reason kin runs do consistantly better than PUGs is totally coordination, If you play consistantly with the same general group of people, you learn how they play and playstyles are coordinated. This takes time to learn about a player/group.

    The tools cause more problems than they will ever solve, and every instance and every mob has been defeated without them, Let's not try to fix what isn't broken with tools that will cause more trouble than they solve.

  5. #80
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    "I point out that there are a few things that you may be "omitting" in your analysis.
    Originally Posted by SaintBass
    Just a couple of points
    A) You might want to brush up on what a strawman is in reality

    B) You might want to do the same for "Tolerance" and how it relates to poor behavior... Kitty Genovese and all that (hyperbole, I know)

    C) Those that are clamoring for these tools the loudest are the ones I am worried about. More than once, they have demonstrated that they are the very people who would be the problem, no matter how loud they proclaim otherwise

    D) Meters themselves provide no value without benchmarks to meet and said benchmarks are useless if they result in a failed run or wipe.

    E) Meters provide only a little insight to the inner workings of combat. Real knowledge of classes, their abilities as well as observation will teach a player much much more about how to play than any meter ever will... give a man a fish, teach a man to fish... and all that."

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If anyone has ever lead a raid on been a part of a succesful raid in Wow (wow is just an example because everyone says "we dont wanna be like wow" etc) you know there is much more than a dps meter or threat meter or heal meter, but they are the bread and butter.

    Ok so we know you can move out of a fire but why arent you healing as much as everyone else, or dpsing. Alot of people try to watch tv and raid at the same time. the tools arent all bad, they help you with a group effort. yeah, they can lead to epeen contest, but you dont want those guys that just care about being on top of dmg anyway.

    Like i said, much more to raiding on any game than an addon but that is the fundamentals you use to judge what you cant see, its easy to see someone die in a fire, but not someone thats slow at pushing buttons or otherwise sucks and ruins the fun for everyone else. if this game gets very challenging end game content, the people saying no to meters right now will be saying yes, because without them you couldnt do it. And to the person that said first boss kills dont have meters your wrong, try watching some videos.

    I know my grammer isnt perfect so you can pick on that too if you wish to take this conversation down a few notches.

  6. #81

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Meters? Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
    I've gone to endgame in WoW (up to ICC, ended sub in June). I raided also back in the vanilla heydey.
    Meters have such a potential for misuse and abuse that to invite them into the game is less than wise.
    If you want to start seeing people removed from groups because of a numerical value, if you want to see groups refuse members that don't have meters, then invite meters into the game.
    If you want to see posts like "1k dps looking to run such and such" up next to the (thankfully going away) "120 radiance warden looking to run such and such" , then invite meters into the game.
    If you'd like to automate this game even more than it has been ... invite meters to the game. In WoW, they've managed to completely take out human interaction in runs. You queue through an automated system, you get placed in a group after the system gearchecks you, you try to buff people using mods (but chances are they overlap buffs that another class of your type is using, because they have the same mod). You judge DPS through meters and can automatically vote to have a member removed if you feel they are not up to par.
    Then if you behave well and the group succeeds, you MAY get a 'thanks' at the end, before everyone leaves. Most of the time they just leave.

    The more functionality that this game offers that mirrors THAT game...the more comfortable those players will be. I'd rather convert them to our way of gaming, and not vice-versa.

    As for the argument that tools are just tools - yes. But people are still people. And the temptation to misuse dates back to when eve took that danged apple. (if you believe such)
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a0000000eb50b/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  7. #82
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    What concerns me about meters and mods in general is more whats happened to WoW in raiding side of things. The entire population has grown entirely DEPENDENT on them, end game raiding guilds don't operate without them.

    Seriously, as an experiment, my old WoW guild did Ulduar (back then in ful t9, top 2 on the server at the time) without no mods. They could not get past any hardmodes from Hodir onward without "deadly boss mods" to tell them what to do. I never heard them complain the game was too easy after that.

    Not saying that kind of dependency would happen in Lotro, though it could, and it is food for thought eh?

    I can understand and accept player that wish to use a meter to better themselves, as long as they don't force it down other people's throat, or force them to use a meter.

    No Kinship should EVER force anybody to use a meter, they get my "you know what finger" if they even try it to me. Judge me by how I play if you must do so.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a0000001bd03b/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  8. #83
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Glasscannon View Post
    I completly agree with this, i made a suggestion on the forums of the game that everyone says has a "adult mature community" and ive got more hate responses than I ever would on the wow (immature) forums.
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I would imagine the extreme hostility you're seeing here (and even I, someone who is against meters, is rather surprised by just how overboard it is) is because we just came off a giant topic about this that went up down under and behind pretty much every aspect of this subject. I'd imagine it would still be going on in circles if it hadn't been pushed off the front page by all the F2P related discussion. Basically this question has already been answered here as best as it's ever going to be and there's not much if any real discussion value left.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2121f000000132226/01004/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  9. #84

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    The underlying fear here by the portion of the community that is opposed to such meters is that the popularity of them will reach such a point where they're "forced" to use one in order to play.

    While I can at least understand the fear, and see where they are coming from, I don't see penalizing those who want as much information as possible as an ideal, or even an acceptable solution.

    "need" is really the incorrect term here, but arguing about that is merely semantics. Need is almost always a synonym for want here, as well as often in real life. If a segment of the population will enjoy the game more with more information, then there's absolutely no reason to shout it down. On the other hand, if you feel that it would come at the expense of content/features that you may like - then there's nothing wrong with saying so. But insulting or making broad generalizations about players who want the information that meters will provide is really making you look like an ***. It would be almost like saying that anybody who buys alcohol is obviously an alcoholic.

    No, it isn't fair if someone running a group requires you to have a particular addon, or puts some form of performance related criteria as a condition for you staying in the group, but then again, if their goal is performance, and yours is just fun - you'd probably not want to be in their group anyway.

    If someone wants to make sure that their performance, and the performance of their group is as high as absolutely possible - then they have just as much right to play the game their way, as you have the right to just play for fun. Nobody here has the right to tell anybody else how they should play, how this game should be played, or what's important in this game. You have every right to your own opinions on the matter - but telling someone that meters don't belong in this game is just as bad as people telling you you need meters to play. It's nobody's fault here if someone hurt your feelings some time back in whatever game you came from. Blame that person, and people like them - putting the blame on a tool just doesn't make sense. It's like refusing to own a stove because you burned yourself once.
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  10. #85
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    If someone wants to make sure that their performance, and the performance of their group is as high as absolutely possible - then they have just as much right to play the game their way, as you have the right to just play for fun. Nobody here has the right to tell anybody else how they should play, how this game should be played, or what's important in this game. You have every right to your own opinions on the matter - but telling someone that meters don't belong in this game is just as bad as people telling you you need meters to play. It's nobody's fault here if someone hurt your feelings some time back in whatever game you came from. Blame that person, and people like them - putting the blame on a tool just doesn't make sense. It's like refusing to own a stove because you burned yourself once.
    AC1 proved that there is a large segment of the population that would enjoy leveling/grinding through UCMs (unattended combat macros). I saw them everywhere I went in AC1. Should we allow them in LOTRO because people enjoy using them? Of course not.

    I, and others I am sure, would enjoy being able to buy top end raid gear and LIs at the store (since I have more money than time). Should they allow that because some people want it? Of course not.

    In real life, a large portion of the population would love it if they were to remove all speed limits from freeways. Should they allow it? Of course not.

    In all of these cases, the harm outweighs the good. The same is true of meters. Just because someone might enjoy something, does not mean it should be allowed. For the reasons stated in this thread, and the others over the past few months, meters do not belong in LOTRO.
    Last edited by Bradd; Sep 13 2010 at 06:57 AM.

  11. #86

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    AC1 proved that there is a large segment of the population that would enjoy leveling through UCMs (unattended combat macros). I saw them everywhere I went in AC1. Should we allow them? Of course not.

    I, and others I am sure, would enjoy being able to buy top end raid gear at the store (since I have more money than time). Sould they allow that? Of course not.

    In real life, a large portion of the population would love it if they were to remove all speed limits from frreways. Should they allow it? Of course not.

    In all of these cases, the harm outweighs the good. The same is true of meters.
    Well let's see:

    The first one just doesn't make sense, as it basically results in the game playing itself - making it not only not a tool, but actually removes the need for the player to have any information. So yeah, not sure how this applies.

    The second one, also not a tool, manages to invalidate the purpose of having an end-game - as you can just buy the rewards and "win" the game - it too removes the need or the desire for more information

    The third one should be obvious - also not a tool, and would lead to an exceptionally higher accident rate and fatalities.

    So, other than the fact of pointing out that there are things people want that would defeat the purpose of the game (or would generally be a major safety hazard), I'm not seeing the connection to meters.

    You merely state that "harm outweighs the good". Okay, but what harm, and more importantly, who's opinion? In order to objectively state that phrase, two things must be proven

    1) That the tool/feature itself will harm the game, by altering the game itself - or invalidating existing time sinks.

    2) That the "good" is being viewed from someone who is impartial to said meters. Someone who is against them will automatically undervalue the good, while someone that is emphatically for them with overvalue the good.

    Essentially what it boils down to is "the harm outweighs the good" is a completely subjective statement - made even less credible by what you're comparing it to.
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  12. #87
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    The single largest problem LOTRO suffers from is mediocore players.
    I haven't even got to the end of this thread, and I seem to have found some troll poop. This actually made me feel ill.
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  13. #88
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    So you get to be all upset about his statement but yet get to come back calling others jerks. Thats the problem with this game community. This false sense of maturity and greatness over other games. Plenty of elitist attitudes around here, and I am not talking about player skill.
    Elitists want tools to tell the whole world they are Elite, because otherwise people don't believe them. It's not a false sense of maturity of greatness, it's a recognition that this game has been and can be different.

    There are other great games in the market for ultimate min/maxers who need tools to have "fun by numbers". This one, so far, has been different and fun in other ways.
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  14. #89
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    You merely state that "harm outweighs the good". Okay, but what harm, and more importantly, who's opinion?
    Don't be disengenious. In thread after thread people have pointed out how meters have harmed other games and other communities. I have a hard time believing you have forgotten those discussions already. Also, UCMs are tools just like meters are. UCMs make the game easier just like meters. If you want the game controled by meters, why not go all the way and let it be controled by UCMs?

    Many of us like the game as it is, and do not want to see it devolve into WoW. You obviously like WoW and seem to want to see LOTRO turned into WoW with Hobbits.

    I believe, before adding meters, the Devs should be 100% sure it will not harm the game or the community. Based on 100+ pages of posts in several threads, 10+ years experience in MMOs, and 3+ years experience in WoW, I believe there will be harm to both the game and the community if meters are allowed.
    Last edited by Bradd; Sep 13 2010 at 07:42 AM.

  15. #90
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    Superiority complex? No, I don't have one.
    ...
    Anyone who PUGs knows there is a major skill problem with these players. The main reason, I think, is because Turbine allows you to solo 1 through 65, and the lack of information available to the players. I do not hate on these individuals, but they stink. They throw themselves against content again and again, and wipe endlessly.
    So what? LOL. Then teach them! Show some leadership and offer to lead them through it. 100% of content in this game is beatable with perfect coordination, teamwork and knowledge of the fight. There is no need to min/max a single thing like DPS; and there are only 3 real DPS classes out of the 9 anyway.

    I want to help them!

    But perhaps they DON'T WANT HELP! They enjoy losing and learning in their own fashion. They have their idea of FUN and it very likely IS NOT YOURS.

    I do not want meters so I can go in a pug and say "you all suck, look at my DPS compared to yours." I want them so players can say "oh I tried this, and it's only netting X DPS when a fellow DPSer is netting Y." Then I want them to change their rotation and say "look, that's an increase, so now I'm comparable to the other guy."

    Teaching tools.
    The Mel Gibson card - I'm sorry darling, I don't want to be [mean] to you but you make me so mad and I just want to help you. You leave me no choice. How can you spurn my [concern]?

    But no, go ahead, call it elitism and I have a superiority complex. It's so much easier than addressing a real problem the game has.
    IF you think it is a problem. Many of us DON'T.
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  16. #91

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by findorin-gilrain View Post
    Elitists want tools to tell the whole world they are Elite, because otherwise people don't believe them. It's not a false sense of maturity of greatness, it's a recognition that this game has been and can be different.

    There are other great games in the market for ultimate min/maxers who need tools to have "fun by numbers". This one, so far, has been different and fun in other ways.
    Players that care about improving their characters to the best they can be also use those tools to help them reach that goal. People can abuse and misuse any tool - but it's certainly not the tools fault, and it certainly isn't the fault of those who use it correctly.

    Sure, you can say that DPS isn't everything - and you're correct. But it is a significant part of some class' performance. Just because some people might use it as the be all and end all of their improvement, doesn't mean that more rational and better players can't use it to tweak their performance.

    Elitism is an attitude that exists independently of everything else. A DPS meter isn't going to turn someone into an elitist, and an elitist will still find a way to wag their epeen around without it. Anybody that's spent any time with glff on already knows this. So the question is, what's so damaging about a DPS meter that makes it more dangerous than any of the other epeen waving that's already going on in this game? Dicks will always be dicks - but that shouldn't be a reason to deny people a tool they can use to make their character better - for no other reason than personal satisfaction.

    Just like in real life - there are two types of people who take pride in their ability - those who let their actions speak for them, and those who find it necessary to let everybody know about it. Also just like in real life, you end up wanting to be around the first type and have nothing to do with the other.
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  17. #92
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    Well let's see:
    ..loads of stuff justifying their a need for a tool to play the game with, presumably because they are not doing it very well without one...
    Another "it's not the tools it's the people" post. This has been demonstrated to be a poor argument in many cases - both in the game world and real-life.

    Take it to extremes and the argument falls down. Why not give every country in the world nuclear weapons, lol? Why not give every person in the USA a fully automatic machine gun? They are not bad in themselves so don't restrict them just because there are bad people in the world to misuse them.

    And I STILL have not seen a good reason why people feel they NEED them? Expressing a desire to "help people" who don't want help is NOT a good reason.
    Last edited by findorin-gilrain; Sep 13 2010 at 08:06 AM.
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  18. #93
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    Elitism is an attitude that exists independently of everything else. A DPS meter isn't going to turn someone into an elitist, and an elitist will still find a way to wag their epeen around without it.
    You are right, people are people. So why do we not have as bad a problem as there is in WoW? We don't have meters.

    Comparing epeen is a time honored tradition in MMOs. Meters give people a convenient measuring stick. That makes a huge difference.



    Quote Originally Posted by findorin-gilrain View Post
    Another "it's not the tools it's the people" thread. This has been demonstrated to be a poor argument in many cases - both in the game world and real-life..
    I want a personal thermonuclear device please ....
    Last edited by Bradd; Sep 13 2010 at 07:59 AM.

  19. #94
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    Players that care about improving their characters to the best they can be also use those tools to help them reach that goal. People can abuse and misuse any tool - but it's certainly not the tools fault, and it certainly isn't the fault of those who use it correctly.
    ...
    So the question is, what's so damaging about a DPS meter that makes it more dangerous than any of the other epeen waving that's already going on in this game? Dicks will always be dicks - but that shouldn't be a reason to deny people a tool they can use to make their character better - for no other reason than personal satisfaction.
    I argue YES it is a reason and a good one. Dicks will always be dicks - but without tools to facilitate their "dickness" damage will be limited. Give a dick the tools to hurt people and they WILL use them. I have seen nothing to suggest the GAIN outweighs the RISK.

    This is why the world lives in communities with rules; anarchy is not generally acceptable.
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  20. #95

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    You are right, people are people. So why do we not have as bad a problem as there is in WoW? We don't have meters.

    Comparing epeen is a time honored tradition in MMOs. Meters give people a convenient measuring stick. That makes a huge difference.
    Can you corroborate DPS meters with the cause for the state of WoWs community? More important question, are you saying this community is no better right now than WoW and the only difference between the two are add ons that gauge DPS and threat?

    How come it can never be that the game itself attracts that type of player? Why does it always need to be something other than the quality of people?

    The pvp aspects of WoW are one huge source of the angst involved int that community, which has been nurtured by lax moderation on Blizzards part both in game and on the forums. I understand personal preference and opinion here, but it would be nice to hear something more than anecdotal claims to back these statements up. I can make just as many pro statements about positive experiences with these types of add ons in the very same game.

  21. #96
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Glasscannon View Post
    thats why i said fanboys when i did, because everytime i or someone else has mentioned a meter we get flamed to death because were "elitist". I dont spam my dps to /flex and if i did it would be friendly competition. Its starting to smell like alot of people are scared of any kind of competitiveness or were told to practice in another game and got butt hurt.
    I am sure I am not the only one who can see the problems with this. Every single person who has come on here in support of DPS meters says that they aren't the one who misuses it. As if they all know it is a bad thing to do. Yet almost always they follow it with a comment about being "mediocre", being "fail", being "told to practice", not "being competitive" etc. which shows they are, or have been, part of that problem. Many of us are not scared, we just don't want it, and I don't want the "dicks" who delight in pointing out "mediocrity" to people to have even more "tools" to do it with.

    I want a meter for my personal use
    , I dont really plan on raiding in this game because from what I read on the forums the loot isnt worth it, I just want to know which skills give the best bang for the buck.
    And you already have the perfect tools to analyse your skills, esepcially if you don't raid. They are called PRACTICE and EXPERIENCE and TALKING and CSTATS.
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  22. #97

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by findorin-gilrain View Post
    I argue YES it is a reason and a good one. Dicks will always be dicks - but without tools to facilitate their "dickness" damage will be limited. Give a dick the tools to hurt people and they WILL use them. I have seen nothing to suggest the GAIN outweighs the RISK.

    This is why the world lives in communities with rules; anarchy is not generally acceptable.
    Should we do away with global chat? I mean that would mitigate "dickness" right? At some point blame has to be placed on the people involved in the activity. Again, I understand people dont "want them, just like there are many that do, but there is just no basis for the statements that they are the causation or enabler for someone being rude that would not otherwise be inclined to act that way.

    I find your comparisons to nuclear weapons and machine guns to be over the top hyperbole also.

  23. #98
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    I can make just as many pro statements about positive experiences with these types of add ons in the very same game.
    I am sure that someone who likes WoW, the WoW gameplay, and the WoW community ... would have positive things to say about meters. My question is, why do we need to turn LOTRO into WoW?

    Why not have a game for those of us who don't want to play WoW.

  24. #99

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    I am sure that someone who likes WoW, the WoW gameplay, and the WoW community ... would have positive things to say about meters. My question is, why do we need to turn LOTRO into WoW?

    Why not have a game for those of us who don't want to play WoW.
    I appreciate your honesty here and I think this strikes at the core issue with SOME here. Its not about the meters the add ons, its about WoW. Not about these types of add ons in Lotro.

    Lotro is not WoW, nor will it ever be with or without add ons. Its very clear, especially with your claimed experience with WoW that the two games are not similar at all.
    Last edited by Cerataindisaster; Sep 13 2010 at 08:22 AM.

  25. #100

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by findorin-gilrain View Post
    I argue YES it is a reason and a good one. Dicks will always be dicks - but without tools to facilitate their "dickness" damage will be limited. Give a dick the tools to hurt people and they WILL use them. I have seen nothing to suggest the GAIN outweighs the RISK.

    This is why the world lives in communities with rules; anarchy is not generally acceptable.
    How will it be limited? Just by having a game based off of numbers and items gives elitists everything they need to "hurt people". If it isn't stats, it's traits, if it isn't traits, it's radiance, if it isn't radiance, it's the legacies on your LI...and so on and so forth. So why on earth would DPS suddenly be worse than any of these existing numbers that are available? Why is DPS any more damaging to someone, than not being allowed in a group because they haven't gotten RoT, or are still using a 3rd age LI? It isn't. It's no better nor worse than any of these other arbitrary conditions elitists will set on others. The day when this game stops being an MMO is the day when elitists won't have any tools to exclude others. In the mean time, saying that a feature can be used to exclude others carries the same weight as a raindrop in a flood. One more isn't going to make the situation worse - and one less isn't going to make the situation any better.
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