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  1. #51

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    A) That's not what actually happened, but you can believe what you want.

    B) I take no issue with tools on their own, I take issue with tools using meters.

    C) Not what I said, but you can believe what you want

    D) Never said they wouldn't, but in the absence of real knowledge they bring nothing to the table and provide non-actionable information. Lrn2Context.

    We can go at this all week. Eventually one of us will rage.
    I dont rage

    But honestly, that was the response in this thread that I called out at as a strwman. Go look for yourself. That is what happened.

    "Lrn2context" classic ad homs coming from you my friend. Not going to be taking the bait I'm afraid. That is a tired tool used in debate.

  2. #52
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by wontong View Post
    Cause it creates more of a challenge.
    ROFL!
    I'm sorry, I couldn't resist pointing that sentence out.
    [FONT=Book Antiqua][color=#3333FF][b][size=3][center] -| Commander Borfinn - R11 Guardian |-[/size] [/b][color=#B22222][size=3]| Harvester Of Hatred |[/size][/color]
    | Disciples Of The Watch |[/center][/color][/font]

  3. #53
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Hey Certaindisaster, have some context!


    This statement was made as a general statement, not directed at any one person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrra_T View Post
    Try being awesome in life and just have fun and relax in your games.

    Everything is NOT a competition.

    Your blood pressure will be a lot lower and you might just have a healthier outlook in life.
    Above statement labeled as a strawman--- Mis-characterization is far more accurate, but a strawman it is not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    This strawman gets be on to death around here when talking about meters.

    Having tools for people who want them somehow equals not having fun.

    For such a self proclaimed laid back and mature community there is a lack of tolerance to those who do express a positive opinion about meters.

    I really hope that we have them sooner rather than later, I believe that we will get them, and when we do, remember its never tools like DPS meters that cause the problems, its people. So if the community is so awesome and mature here in LOTRO like people here like to claim, then there should be no problems.

    I point out that there are a few things that you may be "omitting" in your analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    Just a couple of points
    A) You might want to brush up on what a strawman is in reality

    B) You might want to do the same for "Tolerance" and how it relates to poor behavior... Kitty Genovese and all that (hyperbole, I know)

    C) Those that are clamoring for these tools the loudest are the ones I am worried about. More than once, they have demonstrated that they are the very people who would be the problem, no matter how loud they proclaim otherwise

    D) Meters themselves provide no value without benchmarks to meet and said benchmarks are useless if they result in a failed run or wipe.

    E) Meters provide only a little insight to the inner workings of combat. Real knowledge of classes, their abilities as well as observation will teach a player much much more about how to play than any meter ever will... give a man a fish, teach a man to fish... and all that.
    Your failure to address the points raised.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    A. Really, so responding by saying those that are in favor of having meters are not having fun. And if you are not having fun you are wrong and the meters are wrong, is some how not a strawman today? um ok.

    B. Complete hyperbole . But tolerance of ones expressed views on a forum is well with in reason.

    C. There are banchmarks everywhere in the game. Somehow THESE banchmarks are bad? The most glaring banchmark=radiance.

    D. Opinion and conjecture. Having hard numbers will always allow more insight into class mechanics and skill rotations.
    Pointing out said failure
    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    A) That's not what actually happened, but you can believe what you want.

    B) I take no issue with tools on their own, I take issue with tools using meters.

    C) Not what I said, but you can believe what you want

    D) Never said they wouldn't, but in the absence of real knowledge they bring nothing to the table and provide non-actionable information. Lrn2Context.

    We can go at this all week. Eventually one of us will rage.
    Deflection.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    I dont rage

    But honestly, that was the response in this thread that I called out at as a strwman. Go look for yourself. That is what happened.

    "Lrn2context" classic ad homs coming from you my friend. Not going to be taking the bait I'm afraid. That is a tired tool used in debate.
    Any time you want to address the points as stated, would be fine with me. No moving goal-posts, no deflection. I seriously doubt you are capable of doing so coherently.
    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  4. #54
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by wontong View Post
    Cause it creates more of a challenge.
    Quote Originally Posted by -Sylvan-Shadow- View Post
    ROFL!
    I'm sorry, I couldn't resist pointing that sentence out.
    Actually, it surprised me that those who need DPS meters to be able to play their characters would even want more of a "challenge", since they apparently can't handle the little bit that there is now.

  5. #55

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Like I said before, blaming/insulting/name-calling will not get us anywhere in this conversation. Let's keep it clean, please.
    [B][I]One less Orc in the world is a good thing, and one less leader among the Orcs is a great thing.[/I][/B]

  6. #56
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by RingOfFire View Post
    Like I said before, blaming/insulting/name-calling will not get us anywhere in this conversation. Let's keep it clean, please.
    I think we should stop denying our true desires and make this thread about tacos.

    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  7. #57

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Any time you want to address the points as stated, would be fine with me. No moving goal-posts, no deflection. I seriously doubt you are capable of doing so coherently.
    That is some classic stuff man. You should indeed seek employment in Washington D.C.

    Spin Spin Spin!

    Really nothing more than more Ad hominem attacks to be honest.

    The person who I quoted was responding to multiple posters in that thread whom where in favor of meters.

    I have answered your other points. Im not going to rehash. Im also not going to sling well hidden insults with you.

  8. #58
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    I think we should stop denying our true desires and make this thread about tacos.

    Okay, but only soft tacos. The "crunchy" ones always end up getting soggy in the middle from the grease and fall apart, which makes me irritable.

  9. #59
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    I think we should stop denying our true desires and make this thread about tacos.

    SO. MUCH. WIN.

    Seeing as we can make & have any kind of possible taco, I don't see how we can't also make every player happy.

  10. #60
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post


    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  11. #61

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    I hate to break up you very "mature" attempt at trolling and derailing the topic but...

    I found this nice blog, it provides some interesting insight about what the community aspects of add ons can bring in a positive way to a game and its community.

    http://thebigbearbutt.com/2010/02/16...ows-community/

  12. #62
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post


    As an aside, Omen and Recount on their own do not make the WoW community and the blog says as much since it emphasizes the fan-sites as well as other addons.

    Wanna have another go?


    Try not to grasp this time.
    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  13. #63

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post


    As an aside, Omen and Recount on their own do not make the WoW community and the blog says as much since it emphasizes the fan-sites as well as other addons.

    Wanna have another go?


    Try not to grasp this time.
    Sigh.

    It is very obvious that the most ignorant responses in this thread come from those who are against these add ons, but yet claim all these negative effects on the community.

  14. #64
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    Sigh.

    It is very obvious that the most ignorant responses in this thread come from those who are against these add ons, but yet claim all these negative effects on the community.
    Oh the irony is rich with this one. THIS is the VERY DEFINITION of a strawman. Of course!!! The only reason why I could POSSIBLY be opposed to any kind of meter in LOTRO is because I am IGNORANT.

    I think you are onto something here. But if you want to actually engage someone, I'll at least be hanging around for the lulz. If I see some honest discussion, I'll be sure to address it with the proper solemn demeanor and respect. Until then:



    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  15. #65
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    @op: L2p

    Landroval - The Council of the Secret Fire Friendly, Casual, Mature, and always seeking more!
    .
    Musings on LOTRO and other games: www.killtenrats.com

  16. #66

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    No, you are ignorant because of your conduct and actions in this thread. I fully welcome people who have a negative view of the topic, but all you do is attack and insult. Try and not put words in my mouth.

    I lined an interesting alternative blog on this topic, you link ignorant pictures. I dont expect you to agree with me, I would like enough common kindness and respect to be treated the way you would expect to be treated back.

  17. #67
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    No, you are ignorant because of your conduct and actions in this thread. I fully welcome people who have a negative view of the topic, but all you do is attack and insult. Try and not put words in my mouth.

    I lined an interesting alternative blog on this topic, you link ignorant pictures. I dont expect you to agree with me, I would like enough common kindness and respect to be treated the way you would expect to be treated back.
    No, my conduct does not make me ignorant. Lack of knowledge would make me ignorant... and you could ask around and do a little research and find that I can be quite knowledgeable. My conduct is an indication that I disapprove of your intellectual dishonesty, negative characterizations of your opposition and other shenanigans in this and other threads on the topic. I understand fully that you are either incapable or unwilling to address points which you do not agree with. I have observed your cognitive dissonance on display and I choose not to cheapen legitimate points on both sides of the argument by granting any legitimacy to your poorly constructed points and failure to engage.

    My conduct shows very clearly, that when all else fails, there are always tacos and that if you cannot have a reasonable conversation with someone, you can at least try to make the thread worthwhile.

    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  18. #68
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    Sigh.

    It is very obvious that the most ignorant responses in this thread come from those who are against these add ons, but yet claim all these negative effects on the community.
    And then again, isn't this response one of those negative reponses that has an "effect on the community"? Go figure!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000000778e/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  19. #69

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    No, my conduct does not make me ignorant. Lack of knowledge would make me ignorant... and you could ask around and do a little research and find that I can be quite knowledgeable. My conduct is an indication that I disapprove of your intellectual dishonesty, negative characterizations of your opposition and other shenanigans in this and other threads on the topic. I understand fully that you are either incapable or unwilling to address points which you do not agree with. I have observed your cognitive dissonance on display and I choose not to cheapen legitimate points on both sides of the argument by granting any legitimacy to your poorly constructed points and failure to engage.

    My conduct shows very clearly, that when all else fails, there are always tacos and that if you cannot have a reasonable conversation with someone, you can at least try to make the thread worthwhile.

    Well what talking points would you like to discuss? I am all for it, but for someone to claim, as a basis for treating another the way you have, "intellectual dishonesty" you would need to actually be honest yourself. The conduct you claim of me, you do not hold others holding your beliefs and opinions on to the same standards as you so valiantly hold me too. As for my "dissonance on display" where have I blamed anyone for honest opinions over this that are contrary to my own. I simply made points in this thread and others that its people not software that make or break the community when presented with this line of argument and that further bolsters my claim when we can not get through 3 pages before this topic degenerates into this type of ranting and mud slinging. It IS the number one point brought up against these add ons and thread after thread has proven that the community can be nasty with or without them.

    You have done nothing more than portray me in a negative light throughout this thread. You have brought nothing positive in any way to the discourse either for or against the topic at hand. You continue to do that again in this latest reply. I will not feed into your ad hominem comments directed at me. You cheapen any honest discourse be deeming yourself the be all arbiter of what is worthy and what is not. Pretty much the text book definition of elitist and what many against these very add ons fear the most.

  20. #70

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikivaup View Post
    And then again, isn't this response one of those negative reponses that has an "effect on the community"? Go figure!
    You are right. ANd for that I am sorry. I do think that this is a great community and why I love the game so much. If I honestly thought add ons of this type would change that I would have a different opinion. I am human and reacted to the "****" being slung around. That is on me and again, I am sorry.

  21. #71
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    "Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement. If you can't measure something, you can't understand it. If you can't understand it, you can't control it. If you can't control it, you can't improve it."
    - H. James Harrington
    [B]Elendilmir - [COLOR=#3333ff]Evenwyn[/COLOR][/B] Burglar[B] - [COLOR=#3333ff]Evendale[/COLOR][/B] Guardian
    [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#ff0000][SIZE=2][B]Combat Analysis[/B] [/SIZE][/COLOR][SIZE=2]([B]v4.2.3b[/B]) - [/SIZE][/FONT]Download "[URL="http://www.lotrointerface.com/downloads/info502-CombatAnalysis.html"]here[/URL]"

  22. #72
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    If we ever get meters in this game and another player tries to tell me that my skill rotation is sub-optimal is going to get an earful from me. For one I am going to tell them to go swim off Monomoy Island, Chatham, Cape Cod Massachusetts while dressed to look like a harbor seal. I really, really don't give a damn what other players consider to be the optimal pressing of keys in this game. If I had though that I would have not used Barbed Arrow all through SoA or been primarilly a Stance: Precision Hunter through the entire game.
    Arthad Eketta Former Drill Sgt U.S. Army Reserves
    Shin Ki-jun on Turbine's Asheron's Call Morningthaw Server
    Officer of The Fellowship of the Rogues on the Brandywine Server

  23. #73

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by ArahadEketta View Post
    If we ever get meters in this game and another player tries to tell me that my skill rotation is sub-optimal is going to get an earful from me. For one I am going to tell them to go swim off Monomoy Island, Chatham, Cape Cod Massachusetts while dressed to look like a harbor seal. I really, really don't give a damn what other players consider to be the optimal pressing of keys in this game. If I had though that I would have not used Barbed Arrow all through SoA or been primarilly a Stance: Precision Hunter through the entire game.
    You are in control of who you kin with, who you group with etc. Everyone should find people to guild and group with that are like minded and for the most part share common views about game play. Those things are all user controlled. Like I have said before, look around your kin list and friends list, if there are people on those lists that you think would give you grief about the way you play your class because of a DPS or threat meter then its not the tool that is the issue in the first place.

  24. #74

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    "Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement. If you can't measure something, you can't understand it. If you can't understand it, you can't control it. If you can't control it, you can't improve it."
    - H. James Harrington
    + Rep for ya

    Is everyone afraid of the results ? We should definitely have the DPS meter ...

    Sekira Trinitrotoluene
    ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| PENETRATING THE CREEPS SINCE 2007 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

  25. #75
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by mladjacool View Post
    + Rep for ya

    Is everyone afraid of the results ? We should definitely have the DPS meter ...
    http://www.lordofthelogs.com/

    I have parses posted there... not afraid of the results. If you had actually read the concerns posted by some, you would not be asking such a question. Unless of course you aren't here to discuss the issue, but push an idea.... but you know, this isn't the third thread on the subject in just as many months. We haven't hammered this topic to death at all.

    The tool made by Tilps that is an opt-in group-wide meter has its flaws, but is functional for what it is although lacking in certain functionality that I think would be rather important.

    The point that gets brought up repeatedly is that we "need" these things. That "need" has been dis-proven handily many, many times. Once that falls apart then someone argues that they personally need such meters... but then are at some point taught some techniques about their class and how they interact with others, proving that the meter itself was not necessary as evidenced by the success that they later achieved. So now, the latest allegation is that opponents are "afraid"... like knowing the real numbers will somehow shrivel e-peens.

    None of this is news, a simple search would lead you to the two previous threads on the subject... and how, horribly, horribly wrong they went. (here and here) If anyone wants to actually build some broad-base support for such addons, you really will have to ally the concerns about their functionality and abuse. "My kin won't abuse it." and "I just want to help." are not exactly confidence builders... and to be totally honest, not even the basis for my personal concerns... but hey, I don't actually expect anyone to address anything at this point. So lets be realistic about this discussion, making allegations about how the opposition is "keeping you down" or is "afraid" really isn't helping anything.
    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

 

 
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