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  1. #26

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    Superiority complex? No, I don't have one.

    The problem that this community has - including you - is that every word I say (on these subjects) are immediately coloured with elitism. This is the furthest thing from what I'm saying.

    Anyone who PUGs knows there is a major skill problem with these players. The main reason, I think, is because Turbine allows you to solo 1 through 65, and the lack of information available to the players. I do not hate on these individuals, but they stink. They throw themselves against content again and again, and wipe endlessly.

    I want to help them!

    I do not want meters so I can go in a pug and say "you all suck, look at my DPS compared to yours." I want them so players can say "oh I tried this, and it's only netting X DPS when a fellow DPSer is netting Y." Then I want them to change their rotation and say "look, that's an increase, so now I'm comparable to the other guy."

    Teaching tools.

    I PUG and so I'm concerned with the community's skill level. I want people who suck to unsuck so the game can progress forward.

    But no, go ahead, call it elitism and I have a superiority complex. It's so much easier than addressing a real problem the game has.
    Why are "skill problems" so important? Here in LOTRO, the important thing is to have fun. Some find it fun to simply be successful in crafting. Others find it fun to hang out with others in a social environment. There are those who find it fun to run challenging group content. Others find it fun to max out their characters in every aspect possible. There are still others who find it fun to raid in challenging content.

    In other words, not everyone needs to be highly "skilled" to have fun. In fact, that group which may be throwing itself against some hard content again and again, and constantly wiping, may actually be having fun!

    Not everyone wants others to give them advice on how to play better, and that usually only works out if said players ask for that advice. In rare cases, privately (and politely) asking them to change something in their skill rotation or other area may be warranted, but I cannot see any other reasonable alternative which works outside of the appropiate kinds of groups (min/maxers and dedicated raiders, for examples).

    A group DPS meter throws that out the window entirely, and may not always fix the problem. In the right hands it may have the potential to do some good... but once added to the game, it will come into the hands of those who would rather use that in insolent ways, guaranteed. In such a situation it will do far more harm than it can good.

    As mentioned by another person in this thread, there is currently a functioning, third-party, optional opt-in version of what the OP is asking for. That is more than enough.

  2. #27
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Try being awesome in life and just have fun and relax in your games.

    Everything is NOT a competition.

    Your blood pressure will be a lot lower and you might just have a healthier outlook in life.

  3. #28
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    The single largest problem LOTRO suffers from is mediocore players.
    The single largest problem LOTRO has is with players trying to rank other players.

    Mediocre players make this game great, and I have more fun grouping with them than I ever have grouping with highly skilled jerks. You succeed in a group with mediocre players, and they thank everyone for having a fun time. You succeed in a group with some elites and they'll complain about how they could have done better if it weren't for those holding them back.

  4. #29

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrra_T View Post
    Try being awesome in life and just have fun and relax in your games.

    Everything is NOT a competition.

    Your blood pressure will be a lot lower and you might just have a healthier outlook in life.
    This strawman gets be on to death around here when talking about meters.

    Having tools for people who want them somehow equals not having fun.

    For such a self proclaimed laid back and mature community there is a lack of tolerance to those who do express a positive opinion about meters.

    I really hope that we have them sooner rather than later, I believe that we will get them, and when we do, remember its never tools like DPS meters that cause the problems, its people. So if the community is so awesome and mature here in LOTRO like people here like to claim, then there should be no problems.

  5. #30

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    This strawman gets be on to death around here when talking about meters.

    Having tools for people who want them somehow equals not having fun.

    For such a self proclaimed laid back and mature community there is a lack of tolerance to those who do express a positive opinion about meters.

    I really hope that we have them sooner rather than later, I believe that we will get them, and when we do, remember its never tools like DPS meters that cause the problems, its people. So if the community is so awesome and mature here in LOTRO like people here like to claim, then there should be no problems.
    The argument about whether it is good for the community and not can, quite frankly, go around in circles... the technical and monetary issues remain, however. I do not see such tools to be in Turbine's best interest. Therefore, I do not see much of a chance of their being officially supported and functionality implemented.

  6. #31

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    The single largest problem LOTRO has is with players trying to rank other players.

    Mediocre players make this game great, and I have more fun grouping with them than I ever have grouping with highly skilled jerks. You succeed in a group with mediocre players, and they thank everyone for having a fun time. You succeed in a group with some elites and they'll complain about how they could have done better if it weren't for those holding them back.
    So you get to be all upset about his statement but yet get to come back calling others jerks. Thats the problem with this game community. This false sense of maturity and greatness over other games. Plenty of elitist attitudes around here, and I am not talking about player skill.

  7. #32
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    LOTRO does not Need a DPS or any other meter. It is not a hard game to play. You should be able to figure things out on your own - people have been doing it for 3+ years. DPS and Threat eters do much more harm than good.

    DPS Meters:

    A lot of people will judge people based on what they do on the meter (even though it is not an accurate measure of contribution to the raid). Human nature being what it is, people will blow the meter results out of proportion - it has happened time and time again.

    There are numerous examples of how the meters can negatively affect raiding. They lead to people denegrating other players. People insult other players if they do not meet some arbitrary standard of DPS (which often does not take into account the non dps aspects of the class). Meters cause friction between people who should be working together.

    This can lead to people playing to the meters instead of playing smart. I recall Pallies in WoW who refused to cleanse because it caused their numbers to be lower on the heal meter. In LOTRO a RK who removes corruption, casts Do Not Fall to XXX, etc. will be lower on the meter than one who DPSes exclusively. If the RK who exclusively DPSes is praised because of his high DPS, the better RK (who uses all of his skills) will have an incentive to only DPS as well. Meters cause bad play.

    Human nature is what it is. People want the big numbers and judge people based on the big numbers. Comparing epeen is a time honored tradition in MMOs. The only way to keep the tools from being abused is to control them.

    (If people want to merely tweak their own rotation or gear, they can use some of the tools already present in LOTRO. There is no reason to allow implementation of group meters.)


    Threat Meters:

    I used a Threat Meter when raiding in WoW. Having a working threat meter allowed me to pump out the maximum amount of healing, while staying just below the tank in aggro. Groups who use threat meters will have their overall dps and healing output increased (since you know exactly how much you can do without getting aggro). You don't have to think about controling your aggro, the mod does all the thinking for you. (Do we really want to dumb things down so our computer does the thinking for us?) Threat meters will trivialize content for raids that use the meters and potentially force the Devs to increase the difficulty to compensate. Groups that do not use the meters will then be facing content with little chance of success.
    Last edited by Bradd; Sep 12 2010 at 08:12 PM.

  8. #33
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by RingOfFire View Post
    Why are "skill problems" so important? Here in LOTRO, the important thing is to have fun. Some find it fun to simply be successful in crafting. Others find it fun to hang out with others in a social environment. There are those who find it fun to run challenging group content. Others find it fun to max out their characters in every aspect possible. There are still others who find it fun to raid in challenging content.

    In other words, not everyone needs to be highly "skilled" to have fun. In fact, that group which may be throwing itself against some hard content again and again, and constantly wiping, may actually be having fun!

    Not everyone wants others to give them advice on how to play better, and that usually only works out if said players ask for that advice. In rare cases, privately (and politely) asking them to change something in their skill rotation or other area may be warranted, but I cannot see any other reasonable alternative which works outside of the appropiate kinds of groups (min/maxers and dedicated raiders, for examples).

    A group DPS meter throws that out the window entirely, and may not always fix the problem. In the right hands it may have the potential to do some good... but once added to the game, it will come into the hands of those who would rather use that in insolent ways, guaranteed. In such a situation it will do far more harm than it can good.

    As mentioned by another person in this thread, there is currently a functioning, third-party, optional opt-in version of what the OP is asking for. That is more than enough.
    Thank you for your well-written thoughts. On any given day the activities which are fun to me in LOTRO change. Some days are instance days, some are questing days, some are crafting days, some are even "do nothing but hang out with cool people in-game" days.

    I am only one person, but the fact that I so drastically differ from Magian's approach to gameplay is proof that not everyone wants what he wants, nor believes what he believes. All the other dissenting responses to his ideas over the years just add to the pile.

    Magian, you assume too much, especially that "The single largest problem LOTRO suffers from is mediocore [sic] players." Your elitism is your assumption that anyone would want you to "teach" them anything and that you are qualified to do so. Who are you to even be the one who decides what is mediocre?

    As far as the actual meters go, there's no guarantee players will improve their skill levels by using them. Assuming such is folly and tunnel-visioned.
    [url="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?366716-LOTRO-passwords-and-internet-security-how-to-safeguard-yourself"]Lotro, passwords, and internet security - how to safeguard yourself[/url]

  9. #34

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
    LOTRO does not Need a DPS or any other meter. It is not a hard game to play. You should be able to figure things out on your own - people have been doing it for 3+ years. DPS and Threat eters do much more harm than good.

    DPS Meters:

    A lot of people will judge people based on what they do on the meter (even though it is not an accurate measure of contribution to the raid). Human nature being what it is, people will blow the meter results out of proportion - it has happened time and time again.

    There are numerous examples of how the meters can negatively affect raiding. They lead to people denegrating other players. People insult other players if they do not meet some arbitrary standard of DPS (which often does not take into account the non dps aspects of the class). Meters cause friction between people who should be working together.

    This can lead to people playing to the meters instead of playing smart. I recall Pallies in WoW who refused to cleanse because it caused their numbers to be lower on the heal meter. In LOTRO a RK who removes corruption, casts Do Not Fall to XXX, etc. will be lower on the meter than one who DPSes exclusively. If the RK who exclusively DPSes is praised because of his high DPS, the better RK (who uses all of his skills) will have an incentive to only DPS as well. Meters cause bad play.

    Human nature is what it is. People want the big numbers and judge people based on the big numbers. Comparing epeen is a time honored tradition in MMOs. The only way to keep the tools from being abused is to control them.

    (If people want to merely tweak their own rotation or gear, they can use some of the tools already present in LOTRO. There is no reason to allow implementation of group meters.)


    Threat Meters:

    I used a Threat Meter when raiding in WoW. Having a working threat meter allowed me to pump out the maximum amount of healing, while staying just below the tank in aggro. Groups who use threat meters will have their overall dps and healing output increased (since you know exactly how much you can do without getting aggro). You don't have to think about controling your aggro, the mod does all the thinking for you. (Do we really want to dumb things down so our computer does the thinking for us?) Threat meters will trivialize content for raids that use the meters and potentially force the Devs to increase the difficulty to compensate. Groups that do not use the meters will then be facing content with little chance of success.
    I am sure we will have them soon and I am excited to be able to use them here in Lotro. I cant wait. They are coming.

  10. #35

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    I am sure we will have them soon and I am excited to be able to use them here in Lotro. I cant wait. They are coming.
    Some developers in a recent WarCry chat have made it quite clear that they do not want anything which trivializes the content they make. Threat meters are definitely one of those things.

  11. #36
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    I am sure we will have them soon and I am excited to be able to use them here in Lotro. I cant wait. They are coming.
    If that is true, your name will be quite prophetic for both the community and the game.

  12. #37

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Meters do not cause bad play. A meter is a tool. No different than many other tools in the world. It's all in how a person uses a tool. Do i think Lotro should add a DPS meter? Not really, though personally I could care less either way. But blaming the tool, instead of the people using the tool is a foolish move. Meters can help someone learn alot about how they play on a personal level. This can be a great thing. When the tool is used to criticize others, that can be a bad thing. It can also be a good thing, since it can allow them to become a better player.

    And yeah, when you complain about not wanting WoW's elitism to come here many of you come off very very elitist yourself, somehow feeling you are a better person because yu play Lotro instead of WoW. Lastly, many people find many aspects of games fun. Some just relaxing, seeing the content, beating a mob, defeating a raid, etc. Some find it in crafting, or the economics they can shape on the AH. Others find it by seeing how good they can be compared to others. NONE of these ways are the wrong way.

    This wasnt directed at anyone in particular, but in general. Sometimes I don't believe people realize how things come across.

  13. #38
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    Anyone who PUGs knows there is a major skill problem with these players.
    Huh, I've only played a few weeks, only to level 25, and I've never played any MMO before. I went with PUGs through the Great Barrows Maze multiple times in beta, getting through it more often than not (and the nots weren't due to low DPS, those damn worms!)

    I went through GB Thadur with a kin group, which retreated/reset a few times over, to the point people went out to repair. Later I led a PUG and although we were defeated and reset once, we creamed Thadur right after that.

    I did GB Sambrog with that same group, completely ignorantly (I'd never set foot in it before) and we rolled right through it.

    I have NO idea what DPS anyone was doing. Because with the right strategy, you will surmount any challenge regardless of a small % difference in your DPS.

    Now admittedly, the PUG that rocked it were all new to LOTRO, but many of them had WoW experience.

    Also an anecdote is not data.

    But! The key here? We all had FUN. Actually more fun in the defeats, than in the easy Sambrog instance fact of the matter.

    I'm investing my time to enjoy myself, I'd rather share fun and lose every night rather than play a "winning" numbers game. (There are alternatives for that.)

    Now admittedly, I haven't played WoW, nor even seen a DPS meter, I didn't even upgrade my armor because I'd have to run across the skirmish camp and back and deal with multiple vendors--but I wasn't defeated, so my guess is my armor was suitable, regardless of the numbers.

    Now here's a question for those in favor of maximizing DPS. Do you know when doing more DPS as a group could be your worst choice of strategy? Did you ever consider that the reason your group isn't excelling is your are doing too much DPS? Would you believe the hunter in the aforementioned PUG, that achieved so much, actually turned off his stance and used lower DPS autoattacks instead of powerful skills?

    It's about managing time effectively. Higher DPS obviously means less time. Less time to recover. Less time for debuffs/stuns/whatever to run out, so you remain vulnerable. Less time to regain power. Less time for cooldown timers to finish, so your life saving skills aren't available when needed. Less time for the group to be prepared. A perfect example is the GB Thadur instance.

    But I'm not going to gripe when others are doing too much DPS, thankfully most people see beyond "if the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail" and we'll have fun regardless!



    "Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

  14. #39
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    This strawman gets be on to death around here when talking about meters.

    Having tools for people who want them somehow equals not having fun.

    For such a self proclaimed laid back and mature community there is a lack of tolerance to those who do express a positive opinion about meters.

    I really hope that we have them sooner rather than later, I believe that we will get them, and when we do, remember its never tools like DPS meters that cause the problems, its people. So if the community is so awesome and mature here in LOTRO like people here like to claim, then there should be no problems.
    Just a couple of points
    A) You might want to brush up on what a strawman is in reality

    B) You might want to do the same for "Tolerance" and how it relates to poor behavior... Kitty Genovese and all that (hyperbole, I know)

    C) Those that are clamoring for these tools the loudest are the ones I am worried about. More than once, they have demonstrated that they are the very people who would be the problem, no matter how loud they proclaim otherwise

    D) Meters themselves provide no value without benchmarks to meet and said benchmarks are useless if they result in a failed run or wipe.

    E) Meters provide only a little insight to the inner workings of combat. Real knowledge of classes, their abilities as well as observation will teach a player much much more about how to play than any meter ever will... give a man a fish, teach a man to fish... and all that.
    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  15. #40
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    Let's make PUGs fun again. Bring on the tools.
    Do you mean "tools" as in the DPS meters? Or do you mean the "tools" that want DPS meters? Because the word fits both perfectly.

  16. #41
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  17. #42

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    Just a couple of points
    A) You might want to brush up on what a strawman is in reality

    B) You might want to do the same for "Tolerance" and how it relates to poor behavior... Kitty Genovese and all that (hyperbole, I know)

    C) Those that are clamoring for these tools the loudest are the ones I am worried about. More than once, they have demonstrated that they are the very people who would be the problem, no matter how loud they proclaim otherwise

    D) Meters themselves provide no value without benchmarks to meet and said benchmarks are useless if they result in a failed run or wipe.

    E) Meters provide only a little insight to the inner workings of combat. Real knowledge of classes, their abilities as well as observation will teach a player much much more about how to play than any meter ever will... give a man a fish, teach a man to fish... and all that.
    A. Really, so responding by saying those that are in favor of having meters are not having fun. And if you are not having fun you are wrong and the meters are wrong, is some how not a strawman today? um ok.

    B. Complete hyperbole . But tolerance of ones expressed views on a forum is well with in reason.

    C. There are banchmarks everywhere in the game. Somehow THESE banchmarks are bad? The most glaring banchmark=radiance.

    D. Opinion and conjecture. Having hard numbers will always allow more insight into class mechanics and skill rotations.

  18. #43
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    Angry Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Glasscannon View Post
    why?

    #1 you dont really know if your spell/skill rotation is right for max dps or healing because you dont know what your doing overall

    #2 lets just guess how much threat were doing

    #3 your in a raid, 8 people are awesome, a few are not awesome and you cant down a boss, those few awful people are dragging everyone else down and you have no idea thats what the problem is
    No you don't, but you soon figure out by yourself which rotation works best for you and a group. You don't need an add on to tell you. This is just plain laziness.
    If the mob is on you, you are at the top of the threat list.
    You don't need a dps meter to tell where things are going wrong in your group either, any decent leader will know.

    Things like dps and threat meters will be used for more harm then good, as many have said in an earlier post on this subject. Want evidence of that? Go check out WoW
    Last edited by -Sylvan-Shadow-; Sep 12 2010 at 08:55 PM.

  19. #44
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    I am sure we will have them soon and I am excited to be able to use them here in Lotro. I cant wait. They are coming.
    And I am sure the rest of us that do not want them will laugh ( at you particularly ) when Turbine intentionally breaks them with an update.

  20. #45

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Korandon View Post
    Do you mean "tools" as in the DPS meters? Or do you mean the "tools" that want DPS meters? Because the word fits both perfectly.
    Really? I am incredibly surprised that a comment like this came from a community WITHOUT DPS meters!!!

    I dont believe it, there must be DPS meters here otherwise there is no way the community could treat each other this way!

  21. #46

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    There is no doubt this game went f2p cause it couldn't keep subscribers. Over 50% of they're servers are completely dead. This is the emergency pull switch called f2p to see if it could stay afloat.
    Addons add life to a game, the ability to change the UI and the many other mods that let you see how much dmg you are putting out or threat, all that stuff adds more value to a game. Cause it creates more of a challenge.
    If you can't see what is actually happening after awhile it becomes a boring clicky of this or that. You are always gonna have that small few of dumbos that are gonna keep glorifying it no matter how bad it gets.I came back to the game a few weeks ago after leaving it before moria and it is actually worst now that it was before. At least back then it was a new fad and it actually had people in it. I was in bree today and was amazed at seing some actual conversations going on.
    Let's just hope f2p can keep this afloat .

  22. #47
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post

    C. There are banchmarks everywhere in the game. Somehow THESE banchmarks are bad? The most glaring banchmark=radiance.
    Try keeping up with the news. Radiance is going bye-bye.

  23. #48

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    Really? I am incredibly surprised that a comment like this came from a community WITHOUT DPS meters!!!

    I dont believe it, there must be DPS meters here otherwise there is no way the community could treat each other this way!
    Nice try. I'm using acid-resist gear in my build.

    As for everyone else here (on both sides of this): blaming/insulting/name-calling will not get us anywhere in this conversation. Let's keep it clean please.

  24. #49
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster View Post
    A. Really, so responding by saying those that are in favor of having meters are not having fun. And if you are not having fun you are wrong and the meters are wrong, is some how not a strawman today? um ok.

    B. Complete hyperbole . But tolerance of ones expressed views on a forum is well with in reason.

    C. There are banchmarks everywhere in the game. Somehow THESE banchmarks are bad? The most glaring banchmark=radiance.

    D. Opinion and conjecture. Having hard numbers will always allow more insight into class mechanics and skill rotations.
    A) That's not what actually happened, but you can believe what you want.

    B) I take no issue with tools on their own, I take issue with tools using meters.

    C) Not what I said, but you can believe what you want

    D) Never said they wouldn't, but in the absence of real knowledge they bring nothing to the table and provide non-actionable information. Lrn2Context.

    We can go at this all week. Eventually one of us will rage.
    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  25. #50

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by wontong View Post
    There is no doubt this game went f2p cause it couldn't keep subscribers. Over 50% of they're servers are completely dead. This is the emergency pull switch called f2p to see if it could stay afloat.
    Addons add life to a game, the ability to change the UI and the many other mods that let you see how much dmg you are putting out or threat, all that stuff adds more value to a game. Cause it creates more of a challenge.
    If you can't see what is actually happening after awhile it becomes a boring clicky of this or that. You are always gonna have that small few of dumbos that are gonna keep glorifying it no matter how bad it gets.I came back to the game a few weeks ago after leaving it before moria and it is actually worst now that it was before. At least back then it was a new fad and it actually had people in it. I was in bree today and was amazed at seing some actual conversations going on.
    Let's just hope f2p can keep this afloat .
    Last I checked, this game was alive and well before F2P. It is pretty clear that the new executive producer wants what is best for LOTRO, and this hybrid model now ingame worked well for DnD... why not LOTRO?

    Anyway, now back to our irregularly unscheduled program.

 

 
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