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  1. #251

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Except none of the raids to this point have EVER needed that much precision, with the possible exception of BG - which is why a lot of people hate that place.

    As far as 6 man content goes, all of the Moria stuff is super easy now, SG's been done to death (so most of us can do it in our sleep now), and the Tier 2's are only difficult because they're new. Same can be said about the 3 mans.

    The only thing a DPS chart will ever accomplish is a better tool to measure the ePeens of the DPS (or healers) in the group. And then the rest of us, who don't care, get to listen to it. Let's not even get into the kind of behavior this encourages in the random PUG, and the people that get the tool and mistakenly believe that group contribution is measured by being #1 on the chart.
    Just because some groups can get through content without such a tool doesn't mean that the tool is not needed. Groups that haven't made it through such content might benefit from it.

    I still have yet to down the Lieutenant - no kin I've ever been in has been willing to challenge him, so I've only gotten to take him on in PUGs, which is not ideal.

    As such, a chart might tell us when specific members of our raid aren't pulling their weight and give us the opportunity to tell them how to do things better.

  2. #252
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Reillan View Post
    As such, a chart might tell us when specific members of our raid aren't pulling their weight and give us the opportunity to tell them how to do things better.
    Let's think about this for a second.... if someone is just straight DPSing, but doing everything else right, according to the chart, they're pulling their own weight. However, if someone is lower in the chart, but actually doing stuff that they're supposed to, how does the chart say so? The person who's straight DPSing, but doing none of the stuff that would make a huge difference, is actually protected from being scrutinized because most people that see the chart think that they're doing everything right, when in reality, they're not. Because they're not getting called out for it, that behavior is not being corrected, thus, the chart is actually reinforcing the undesirable behavior of only DPSing.

    If you take into account recent log changes that make recording pet DPS inaccurate at best, a DPS chart becomes a lot less of a useful tool. For example, if a LM has a pet out, and the pet is wailing on a secondary target so it dies faster, but the LM is focused on the primary target debuffing and what not, and the LM does no damage to the secondary target, all of the pet DPS on the secondary target will not be recorded, so the LM shows less DPS than they would have, and will likely be chewed out because they weren't "pulling their weight", when actually part of their DPS was never on the record to begin with. Again, this reinforces the behavior of LMs (and captains to a certain extent) not wanting to run with their pets/heralds out, even though said pet/herald could have a huge impact on the battle (through either self healing for the captain heralds when Strength from Within cannot be slotted, or from buffs from a LM pet, like the raven).

    Honestly, these charts generate interesting trivial, and not a whole lot more. And as things in OD go, if you're having problems with the raid, someone is not doing something correctly (such as groups that aren't balanced for the race of the Wound Wing, and one group keeps getting trampled; you're killing the adds at Ivar in the wrong order, and he's demolishing the raid shortly after the fourth dies; captains are using instant rezzes at the balrog, accelerating the countdown, causing the group to wipe faster; you're hitting a tree, then trying to take out it's adds, and wiping hardcore; you're not being careful on the poison boss, and he's taking out all the platforms; etc). How much of that stuff would a DPS meter tell you? How much of that would a HPS meter tell you? What about a buff tracker?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  3. #253

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Let's think about this for a second.... if someone is just straight DPSing, but doing everything else right, according to the chart, they're pulling their own weight. However, if someone is lower in the chart, but actually doing stuff that they're supposed to, how does the chart say so?
    For some classes, that's the biggest thing - a Champ should be posting the highest dps values; a Minstrel should be posting the highest healing values, and so on. Other things, like a tank not taunting or a burg not tripping or a hunter not trapping, those will be obvious to the group without the charts in the first place.

  4. #254
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Reillan View Post
    For some classes, that's the biggest thing - a Champ should be posting the highest dps values; a Minstrel should be posting the highest healing values, and so on. Other things, like a tank not taunting or a burg not tripping or a hunter not trapping, those will be obvious to the group without the charts in the first place.
    And this is the fallacy that the DPS charts make.... there are several fights where a champ posting high DPS is exactly what you don't want them to be doing, Gorothol in SG being one of them. If we reinforce the concept that a champ should be producing the best DPS on the chart, when a fight like Goro in SG comes around, the champ will be less likely to throttle back AEs, start using clobber, and smartly use the threat transfer skills, because they know it will negatively affect their DPS, essentially creating a peer pressure trap that many of the less than noble champs would fall into. There are other fights in the game where the champ needs to play whack-a-mole with the boss's inductions as well, so it's not something unique to Gorothol. Then there's also the threat transfer stuff that a champ does. Also, if you're going after the person at the top of the charts because they're not doing a non-DPS job, it gives the rest of the group incentive to slack, because they don't want to be chewed out for being the top of the DPS chart.

    As far as healing goes.... if a captain is mindlessly spamming Rally Cry, it's conceivable that they will produce more raw healing than a mini (or healing RK) that is smartly healing the group. Again, have a situation where the captain is producing more raw HPS than the healer, yet the healer is actually being more effective, assuming the logs don't automatically filter out the over-healing the captain may be doing. In that situation, the healer would be chewed out, because the captain is out-healing them. Yes, RC Spam is that OP.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Apr 20 2011 at 07:47 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  5. #255
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    I think these things are great for personal use. I installed the Combat Analysis one last night, and had lots of fun seeing where my damage came from (lots of auto attack damage from Capt). Can be used to experiment with builds, etc.

    But as to why to take them with a grain of salt for judging fellowship members, see this thread:
    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ing-Per-Second

    They don't measure things "right", and don't compare true utility. A Hunter who does less DPS may have spent time CCing or curing poisons, or doing other "useless" activities...

  6. #256

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    If you don't like it, don't use it. Problem solved.

    If people are seriously basing their considerations on who is the best raid member based on the parses produced through this (and other similar tools), don't play with them.
    Last edited by Jamers; Apr 25 2011 at 02:42 AM.
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  7. #257
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamers View Post
    If you don't like it, don't use it. Problem solved.
    Look what it did to WoW, people that didn't want to use it got left out of everything.
    [center][color=green]-Hunter Relithriel of Mirkwood,lvl 75.-[/color] [color=grey]-Guardian Ameillia Aidenial lvl 65- [/color] [color=purple]-Burglar Saralin Hopewood of Rohan,lvl 65,-[/color] [color=orange]-Minstral Lasyla of the Fallohides,lvl 65-[/color] [color=blue] Rune-Keeper Istarwin -65,[/color] [color=gold]Warden Shein -65,[/color] [color=red]Champion Wichitaw,lvl 65-[/color] [color=teal] LoreMaster Eveah Saintnoire, 66-[/color] [color=black] Stalker Zelioth[/color] ~Vilya~
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  8. #258
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Lithium777 View Post
    Look what it did to WoW, people that didn't want to use it got left out of everything.
    And that's why I'll continue to argue against the "need" of a DPS chart in LotRO.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  9. #259
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    I see you coming up with these "what-if" scenarios, seemingly believing that as soon as a DPS meter comes available to the masses (without external apps) that every DPS class is going to just toss out everything they've learned about grouping in an MMO, and go for the numbers. You know who would actually do that? Those players who never have learned about grouping.

    I speak from experience with a game that has such group DPS meters - where there are countless number of things you need to do instead of just standing there whacking on a mob. You have an infinitely better chance to be kicked, ridiculed, and flamed for failing the mechanics, than if your DPS is a little low.
    Play WoW sometime.

    Seriously, a lot of the DPS players are completely fixated on winning the DPS race (ie being on top of the meter after every pull). CC, Interrupts, moving out of the fire, tank holding agro, etc. is all secondary to getting max DPS.

    Put a meter in front of people and the results are predictable. Humans are competitive by nature, of course they are going to try to "win" the DPS race.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000001396ea/01007/signature.png]Malmegil[/charsig]

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  10. #260

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by KenR View Post
    Play WoW sometime.

    Seriously, a lot of the DPS players are completely fixated on winning the DPS race (ie being on top of the meter after every pull). CC, Interrupts, moving out of the fire, tank holding agro, etc. is all secondary to getting max DPS.

    Put a meter in front of people and the results are predictable. Humans are competitive by nature, of course they are going to try to "win" the DPS race.
    QFT

    It's the reason me and a buddy of mine stopped raiding there. That and all the spoiled kids with their welfare epics whining over how bad Blizzard is for making heroic raids actually... heroic and thus hard. At least that was the status when we quit raiding. Not sure what the current whine trend is, haven't paid attention to the raiding scene there in months.

    People there were also used to rushing through the content in a couple of minutes. Everything had to be fast. I've had encounters... jeez. A guild mate of me was once gearing up his warrior. So we were running all the fun stuff,which we had done countless times before. He knew the content. Of course some of DPS wanted to zoom through the content (ironically none of them was a DK.) I was main healer. I eventually said "screw them." People dropped group, but luckily DPS are easy to find there. We eventually got people who didn't suck and who weren't too obsessed with their DPS meters. One of them, a warlock if my memory serves me right, didn't even have one. Said he was a casual player who never really planned to go into a raid. Ironically, despite having no DPS meter and being a casual, he played really well. Sure, he was just as under-geared as our tank, but he knew his class. I love such people.

    It's people like that lock who make me keeping my WoW sub. And, yeah, my druids, too. I love my bears. Though, my friend and I, we're primarily hanging around LOTRO nowadays.

    So yeah, is a DPS meter needed in LOTRO?

    No.

    Same with threat meters. I wouldn't say no to one like Omens, but it's not a necessity. It's not something we need to survive. LOTRO has done well without any of this fancy stuff for four years.
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  11. #261

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by KenR View Post
    Play WoW sometime.

    Seriously, a lot of the DPS players are completely fixated on winning the DPS race (ie being on top of the meter after every pull). CC, Interrupts, moving out of the fire, tank holding agro, etc. is all secondary to getting max DPS.

    Put a meter in front of people and the results are predictable. Humans are competitive by nature, of course they are going to try to "win" the DPS race.
    Ok.

    Does it happen? Sure it happens - especially if you're talking pugs. Does it happen any more, or even equal to, bad tanks or healers? No. To tell you the truth, it's tough to say whether a DPS class is failing the mechanics because they're concentrating on Recount (group/raid wide meter covering a ton of stats), or because they just plain suck. I mean, if I saw this happening more often than I saw a (non DPS specced) tank not hold aggro, or a healer not keeping the party alive - I'd be inclined to agree with you. But...I don't see it.

    Here's the deal though - if you're forced to pug things, you probably already are incredibly thankful if the party is competent. Regardless of whether you're talking WoW or LotRO. To be honest, if those who would let a DPS meter interfere with their play, didn't have a DPS meter - they'd be screwing up in other ways. Why? Because those who know how to group/raid in an MMO are the type of player who understands their role and what they need to do for the good of the group. Anybody who puts their DPS above the needs of the group/instance - is more likely to already miss interrupts, stand in the fire, forget to heal, etc. Minstrels trying to heal in Warspeech, or Hunters (again pre-patch) attempting to run in strength stance come to mind. In other words, DPS meters are not going to turn a formerly competent player into a meter watching idiot - it will just turn idiots into meter watching idiots.
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  12. #262

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by KenR View Post
    Play WoW sometime.

    Seriously, a lot of the DPS players are completely fixated on winning the DPS race (ie being on top of the meter after every pull). CC, Interrupts, moving out of the fire, tank holding agro, etc. is all secondary to getting max DPS.

    Put a meter in front of people and the results are predictable. Humans are competitive by nature, of course they are going to try to "win" the DPS race.
    Good players in WoW call those people bad players.

  13. #263
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    Does it happen? Sure it happens - especially if you're talking pugs. Does it happen any more, or even equal to, bad tanks or healers? No. To tell you the truth, it's tough to say whether a DPS class is failing the mechanics because they're concentrating on Recount (group/raid wide meter covering a ton of stats), or because they just plain suck. I mean, if I saw this happening more often than I saw a (non DPS specced) tank not hold aggro, or a healer not keeping the party alive - I'd be inclined to agree with you. But...I don't see it.

    Here's the deal though - if you're forced to pug things, you probably already are incredibly thankful if the party is competent. Regardless of whether you're talking WoW or LotRO. To be honest, if those who would let a DPS meter interfere with their play, didn't have a DPS meter - they'd be screwing up in other ways. Why? Because those who know how to group/raid in an MMO are the type of player who understands their role and what they need to do for the good of the group. Anybody who puts their DPS above the needs of the group/instance - is more likely to already miss interrupts, stand in the fire, forget to heal, etc. Minstrels trying to heal in Warspeech, or Hunters (again pre-patch) attempting to run in strength stance come to mind. In other words, DPS meters are not going to turn a formerly competent player into a meter watching idiot - it will just turn idiots into meter watching idiots.
    In other words, those players that already get it, the "diagnostic" tools aren't going to help them all that much (maybe a couple of percent improvement, if that), and at the same time, those that don't get it are still going to suck, while making those of us that don't suck, but have to PUG with them, feel worse about our classes that we rightly should because they keep beating us over the head with DPS charts and the like, because the noobs have absolutely no idea how to correctly interpret the data a "diagnostic" tool presents.

    And going back to the same argument AGAIN.... we've had 4 years without these tools, and a lot of groups have done a lot of content successfully without ever touching CStats or Combat Analysis.... So why do we need "diagnostic" tools?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  14. #264

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    In other words, those players that already get it, the "diagnostic" tools aren't going to help them all that much (maybe a couple of percent improvement, if that), and at the same time, those that don't get it are still going to suck, while making those of us that don't suck, but have to PUG with them, feel worse about our classes that we rightly should because they keep beating us over the head with DPS charts and the like, because the noobs have absolutely no idea how to correctly interpret the data a "diagnostic" tool presents.

    And going back to the same argument AGAIN.... we've had 4 years without these tools, and a lot of groups have done a lot of content successfully without ever touching CStats or Combat Analysis.... So why do we need "diagnostic" tools?
    To be perfectly honest - nobody needs meters, just like nobody needs Stat Tomes, or to grind an instance hoping to get a teal pocket item (or grind for months to get that perfect LI). My hunter didn't need to grind turtles in Evendim to get the shells for the two Turtle-Shell Bracelets - but I did it anyway, because it improved my character.

    What I'm saying is that very little we do at cap (especially with the borked itemization in Mirkwood) is needed, but most of us still do it, because we want our character to be the best we can make them. So those DPS players that "get it", and strive to get that extra 1%-2% DPS aren't doing anything out of the norm - they're just making their changes by looking at the end result. Min-maxers would obviously want such a meter, and I'm sure there are plenty of other players who put effort into improving their character that would be at least curious to see how they perform, and to see what kind of net result their improvements give.
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  15. #265
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by moduz View Post
    Good players in WoW call those people bad players.
    Call them whatever you want. I'm just saying it happens.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000001396ea/01007/signature.png]Malmegil[/charsig]

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    Rakgrim - 65 Guard | Ayannae - 65 Minstrel | Celbur - 65 Warden | Nethan - 45 Capt

  16. #266

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    And going back to the same argument AGAIN.... we've had 4 years without these tools, and a lot of groups have done a lot of content successfully without ever touching CStats or Combat Analysis.... So why do we need "diagnostic" tools?
    "we" do not "need" such tools - "some players" do "want" such tools though. Just like "we" do not "need" skinning, "we" do not "need" Plugins, and we certainly do not "need" RPing, crafting, raiding PvP, and or questing. Some people want it, and as long as abusing it does not violate the ToS/EULA - regardless of whether others think it's annoying or not, it should be available to those who want it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenR View Post
    Call them whatever you want. I'm just saying it happens.
    Sure it happens - nobody is ever or will ever disagree with that. However, there's a difference between something happening because of people who are already doing stupid things - and something happening because of the majority - or more specifically - those who already know how to play the game.

    In other words, such meters aren't going to make any negative difference in the result of a group - because those people who do watch meters instead of doing what they're supposed to be doing, are the same people you're already complaining about when you PUG with them. The people who are already competent players, the same ones you want to group with now, are going to be the same players who won't do these things.
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  17. #267
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    "we" do not "need" such tools - "some players" do "want" such tools though. Just like "we" do not "need" skinning, "we" do not "need" Plugins, and we certainly do not "need" RPing, crafting, raiding PvP, and or questing. Some people want it, and as long as abusing it does not violate the ToS/EULA - regardless of whether others think it's annoying or not, it should be available to those who want it.
    Problem with plugins, and this goes for any of them, occurs when they get to the point where enough of the community "needs" a certain plugin to do X, and if you do not have said plugin, then you can't do X, because you are not "prepared" to do X, regardless if you have skill, gear, and other stuff to actually do X. Buffbars is a plugin that's extremely close to that border (and some would argue that it infers an advantage); however, it's one that could have most of it's functionality incorporated into the vanilla interface, and most players would welcome the change. The same cannot be said about Combat Analysis

    The big problem with the "diagnostic" tools arise when you hook them all together, and form DPS charts, especially in a way that's easily spammable. Had Evendale never added in the functionality to hook one CA client to another CA client, CA would be a remarkably good tool (when used appropriately).... however, that one decision to start comparing others against what you're doing took what would have been an excellent personal tool, and turned it into a potential harassment tool when CA is abused by ePeeners and elitists.

    As plugin writers, we have the moral and ethical obligation to ensure that the code we write cannot be turned into tools used to harass the LotRO population. For the vast majority of the plugins written, I doubt any of them can be used for harassment.... unfortunately, we have all suffered, or propagated, the abuse and harassment caused by DPS Charts.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  18. #268
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    Sure it happens - nobody is ever or will ever disagree with that. However, there's a difference between something happening because of people who are already doing stupid things - and something happening because of the majority - or more specifically - those who already know how to play the game.

    In other words, such meters aren't going to make any negative difference in the result of a group - because those people who do watch meters instead of doing what they're supposed to be doing, are the same people you're already complaining about when you PUG with them. The people who are already competent players, the same ones you want to group with now, are going to be the same players who won't do these things.
    I have to disagree. Good, bad, or whatever get caught up in the DPS race. Players who would be perfectly fine if not caught in the DPS race play worse because of it.

    Plus it's not just the players it's the leaders as well. Players lose spots over DPS numbers. There was a recent post where the leader disenchanted a piece of raid gear rather then give it to the one player that could use it. Why? Because he did 9.8k dps instead of the 10k that the leader required.

    People do stupid stuff because of the meter. Not playing with those people is much easier said than done.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000001396ea/01007/signature.png]Malmegil[/charsig]

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  19. #269

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Problem with plugins, and this goes for any of them, occurs when they get to the point where enough of the community "needs" a certain plugin to do X, and if you do not have said plugin, then you can't do X, because you are not "prepared" to do X, regardless if you have skill, gear, and other stuff to actually do X. Buffbars is a plugin that's extremely close to that border (and some would argue that it infers an advantage); however, it's one that could have most of it's functionality incorporated into the vanilla interface, and most players would welcome the change. The same cannot be said about Combat Analysis
    I will agree with you that I don't want to see any plugin be required by any raid/fellowship/kin either. I don't think this game is, or ever will be complex enough to require any type of plugin - no matter how beneficial it is. That being said, I see no harm in a guild recommending a plugin or someone recommending a plugin to another that is having difficulty with an aspect of the game/encounter. Even in WoW, very few addons are required across the board. Although I can't speak for everybody, or every guild - there is only one addon that's required in the guild I belong to, and that's only if you're going to raid. That addon is Deadly Boss Mods, and basically provides clearer alerts when specific spells/actions are being taken by bosses. It's certainly up for argument whether even that is actually necessary to raid - as once you know the fight, it really isn't necessary. However, until you do know the fight like the back of your hand - it certainly helps to prevent excessive wiping. Again, I can't speak for LotRO raids - but just comparing the complexity of instances - I don't see any need for such a plugin for LotRO. On a personal note, I would prefer that anybody that downloaded a plugin of mine, did so because they were actually interested in it, as opposed to someone telling them they had to download it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    The big problem with the "diagnostic" tools arise when you hook them all together, and form DPS charts, especially in a way that's easily spammable. Had Evendale never added in the functionality to hook one CA client to another CA client, CA would be a remarkably good tool (when used appropriately).... however, that one decision to start comparing others against what you're doing took what would have been an excellent personal tool, and turned it into a potential harassment tool when CA is abused by ePeeners and elitists.
    Whether we're talking about plugins, or any other existing measure of worth that is standard in the game (morale pool, virtues, gear)- harassment is, and always has been against the TOS. It is Turbine's job alone to enforce their TOS, and to punish those that are harassing others. It really doesn't matter what the cause is - if they can't enforce their rules, then the community is screwed anyway - regardless of whether there's a group wide DPS meter or not. Believe it or not, even in WoW - where ePeening an Elitism is the alleged name of the game - if you're just minding your own business, and playing your class in a competent manner - you're not going to get somebody harassing you over your numbers. On the other hand, if you walk into an instance acting like you're God's gift to MMOs, you better believe you're going to be judged and called on it.

    It seems as though you have this idea that removing all competition between players is something that would make this game better - by making epeeners and elitists move on to another game. While I admire your goal, it's impossible to do in this game, in this type of game, and probably in any game ever created. If there is a way to measure the performance of a player - whether it be stats, numbers, or even time - there will be at least one person who has done it better. From there, it just depends on the person's attitude, their level of insecurity, how competitive they are, and simply, how much it means to them to be good at a particular game. Nobody is going to leave LotRO because it doesn't have a DPS meter; but at the same time, nobody is going to start playing LotRO just because it has one. All such a meter is going to do is give the same people who are already ePeening and being elitist another number to judge someone on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    As plugin writers, we have the moral and ethical obligation to ensure that the code we write cannot be turned into tools used to harass the LotRO population. For the vast majority of the plugins written, I doubt any of them can be used for harassment.... unfortunately, we have all suffered, or propagated, the abuse and harassment caused by DPS Charts.
    I disagree - It is not my job to prevent the existence of something that can be, and is designed to be used in a mature and reasonable manner. Harassment is already covered by the TOS, which is Turbine's sole job to enforce, and my (as well as the rest of the community) job to help make them aware of such problems by reporting the offending person(s). Just like crowbar manufacturers don't pull their product to prevent people killing others with one, because murder is already against the law. I don't believe it's the responsibility of plugin authors to not create a plugin to prevent people from harassing others with it - because harassment is already against the "law".

    It is my moral and ethical obligation to not create any plugin that would compromise a player's account, computer, or personal information - whether that be intentional, or as an unintended side effect. It is also my obligation not to create any plugin for the sole purpose of violating the ToS or EULA, or cause others to violate the ToS/EULA by using it. I do not support or encourage harassment - but I will attempt, to the best of my ability to help provide the features that the community desires. If you do not desire to have such a feature, then I feel you have every right not to use it - but your desires have no bearing on the desires of others.

    To put it bluntly - those who harass others without provocation have no place in society - or this community. With that in mind, I refuse to let such trash dictate the limits of what I can or can not create - when such things can be quite useful to both individuals, as well as groups/raids - in a mature and respectful manner.

    Strangely enough, I suspect the WoW community, of all groups of people, has matured above and beyond your experiences. I am nowhere near an elitist and play WoW just as I do with LotRO - concentrate on making the most out of my character, and improving him to the best of my ability, and let the results speak for themselves. Rogues aren't exactly the pinnacle of DPS classes in the game, and I don't have all the best gear, enchants and gems - but yet I have never - and I mean never been called out on my DPS. But then again, I don't get all insulted when some mage or hunter posts the DPS for a fight, and I'm 2nd or 3rd on the list either. The game for me is about being the best I can be, while having fun - and I'm not about to let anybody mess with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenR View Post
    I have to disagree. Good, bad, or whatever get caught up in the DPS race. Players who would be perfectly fine if not caught in the DPS race play worse because of it.
    Good players, by definition, don't let their numbers come before the fight mechanics, period. If you're watching Recount instead of interrupting a spell - you're not a good player. If you're standing in the fire to get that last special attack in, you're not a good player. Because, like you said - if you get caught up with the numbers during a fight, you're going to play worse - and then you're not a good player.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenR View Post
    Plus it's not just the players it's the leaders as well. Players lose spots over DPS numbers. There was a recent post where the leader disenchanted a piece of raid gear rather then give it to the one player that could use it. Why? Because he did 9.8k dps instead of the 10k that the leader required.
    Just like any group or raid, you're going to have good leaders, and bad ones - the good leaders understand what is required for a fight, while bad ones usually will resort to throwing more DPS at a fight, when other strategies would be more beneficial. That being said - at least in WoW anyway, there are mechanics involved where a certain amount of DPS is required, such as any boss with a berserk timer. A bad leader will require all DPS classes to be above a certain number - a good leader will understand that if you've got a couple of players pushing 20k, you can skate by with a couple of 9ks, if you need 10k DPS for the fight. That being said, there aren't a whole lot of fights with such a timer (BH and Throne are the only two that come to mind), and although 10k is usually the goal for a DPS class to start raiding - again, a good leader will recognize that you really just need a 10k average.

    However, just because you have numbers - doesn't mean that its the only way for leaders to kick someone. It's perfectly plausible for leaders in LotRO to kick a DPS if the group keeps wiping, without looking at anything more than their gear. The point remains that leaders don't even need a reason to kick someone - all they have to do is think someone else could do a better job, has better gear, or even higher morale, and someone's getting swapped out.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenR View Post
    People do stupid stuff because of the meter. Not playing with those people is much easier said than done.
    The best way to discourage that type of behavior is to kick the people who are repeatedly messing up the mechanics. Which really, solves plenty of issues - including repeatedly wiping. The best way of avoiding bad leaders is by shopping around for a good kin/guild. Because really, the only thing more annoying to me than having someone repeatedly causing wipes, is a leader that doesn't know the mechanics of the game/fight.

    To be perfectly honest with you, like I said before - I've had zero bad experiences with the meter - and while I am thankful I landed in a good guild, it's not as if the vast majority of heroics I've been in have had more than one other guildie. So I'm just as exposed to the general population of my server as anybody else is. I'll admit, I've seen plenty of bad behavior - plenty of sh*t talking, but I've never seen anything that could be only attributed to staring at a meter. Even in guild raids - I've seen plenty of mechanics failures - but the blame fell on the shoulder of non DPS classes just as much as it did on the DPS - so that tells me that the meter isn't, at least entirely, to blame for that either.
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  20. #270
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    It seems as though you have this idea that removing all competition between players is something that would make this game better - by making epeeners and elitists move on to another game. While I admire your goal, it's impossible to do in this game, in this type of game, and probably in any game ever created. If there is a way to measure the performance of a player - whether it be stats, numbers, or even time - there will be at least one person who has done it better. From there, it just depends on the person's attitude, their level of insecurity, how competitive they are, and simply, how much it means to them to be good at a particular game. Nobody is going to leave LotRO because it doesn't have a DPS meter; but at the same time, nobody is going to start playing LotRO just because it has one. All such a meter is going to do is give the same people who are already ePeening and being elitist another number to judge someone on.
    If there were an accurate way to quantitatively measure the differences between the classes, and normalize a score, I wouldn't mind that, because it would say who is the better player. However, there is not. By ONLY focusing on what CA can track, you're eliminating a lot of the other factors that decide who is and who is not a good player. And even using the DPS chart from CA, you're still putting blinders on, and ignoring the other classes, and oversimplifying a complex calculation, thus, deriving bad information from the data. It's the creation, and using, of the bad information that really irks me more than anything else, because it's extremely imprecise.

    Heck, for half of the classes, the good players know what skill to use in most circumstances, the best players hit exactly the right skill at exactly the right time, every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    Strangely enough, I suspect the WoW community, of all groups of people, has matured above and beyond your experiences. I am nowhere near an elitist and play WoW just as I do with LotRO - concentrate on making the most out of my character, and improving him to the best of my ability, and let the results speak for themselves. Rogues aren't exactly the pinnacle of DPS classes in the game, and I don't have all the best gear, enchants and gems - but yet I have never - and I mean never been called out on my DPS. But then again, I don't get all insulted when some mage or hunter posts the DPS for a fight, and I'm 2nd or 3rd on the list either. The game for me is about being the best I can be, while having fun - and I'm not about to let anybody mess with that.
    I got to watch the game I loved go from something I would fight hard to defend into something I abhorred.... that doesn't happen without leaving scars, and a lot of bad memories.
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  21. #271
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    Jun 2008
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post

    Good players, by definition, don't let their numbers come before the fight mechanics, period. If you're watching Recount instead of interrupting a spell - you're not a good player. If you're standing in the fire to get that last special attack in, you're not a good player. Because, like you said - if you get caught up with the numbers during a fight, you're going to play worse - and then you're not a good player.
    Okay, if we are going to get into semantics there are "bad" players who play every bit as good as a "good" player till they get a meter in front of them. From my perspective it really makes no difference on the semantics of it. I pug everything in WoW so I don't get the luxury of only "good" players. I get whatever LFD throws my way and IMO the DPS meters have done more harm than good.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000001396ea/01007/signature.png]Malmegil[/charsig]

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  22. #272

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by KenR View Post
    Okay, if we are going to get into semantics there are "bad" players who play every bit as good as a "good" player till they get a meter in front of them. From my perspective it really makes no difference on the semantics of it. I pug everything in WoW so I don't get the luxury of only "good" players. I get whatever LFD throws my way and IMO the DPS meters have done more harm than good.
    While I can't say I've completely pugged everything; but at least 90% of the heroics/dungeons I've run had either 2/5 or 3/5 guildies, so I've had plenty of opprotunity to see the worst the LFD system has to offer. Again, it's usually bad healers or bad tanks taking advantage of the near-instant queue that cause wipes, rather than the dps failing.

    What I'm simply trying to figure out - is exactly how you can tell whether someone is dying/causing a wipe from watching their meter, over simply failing at the mechanics, or being distracted by something else (such as staring at other "stock" UI elements, like pips or skill cooldowns).
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  23. #273
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    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    What I'm simply trying to figure out - is exactly how you can tell whether someone is dying/causing a wipe from watching their meter, over simply failing at the mechanics, or being distracted by something else (such as staring at other "stock" UI elements, like pips or skill cooldowns).
    Sometimes they tell you so.

    But even when they don't it's not hard to see. When you watch a player make mistake after mistake that all improves their DPS it fairly obvious that it's not an accident and they are doing it to have a bigger DPS score.

    Plus these guys aren't making mistakes that hurt their DPS. The same guy that will stand in the fire till his induction is done will be the first guy in a bubble that increases DPS.

    Note: when I say watching their meter I don't mean literally staring at their meter the whole fight and missing mechanics. I mean they want a high DPS score so they do stupid stuff all in the name of a higher DPS score.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000001396ea/01007/signature.png]Malmegil[/charsig]

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  24. #274

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    If there were an accurate way to quantitatively measure the differences between the classes, and normalize a score, I wouldn't mind that, because it would say who is the better player. However, there is not. By ONLY focusing on what CA can track, you're eliminating a lot of the other factors that decide who is and who is not a good player. And even using the DPS chart from CA, you're still putting blinders on, and ignoring the other classes, and oversimplifying a complex calculation, thus, deriving bad information from the data. It's the creation, and using, of the bad information that really irks me more than anything else, because it's extremely imprecise.
    I'll agree with you that a DPS meter doesn't show the full story, even for a DPS class. Mechanics (unless it's really just a tank&spank or a DPS race) and situational awareness will trump almost any stat or output. However, on equal footing - if two DPS classes are in a fight, both of them posses the same primary focus on mechanics and share the same situational awareness, the one that puts out more DPS is still the better player.

    That being said, there are ways of further recognizing a player's contribution - whether it be a good or bad one in that other game - but that opens up another can of worms as well. There is an addon that will display the number of times in a fight where someone fell victim to an attack they shouldn't have (i.e. stood in the fire), how many times a player interrupted, etc. Of course the "can of worms" I speak of is that it can basically be used as a blame tracker - still a very useful tool (especially for a raid/group leader) but as with most things - there's a potential for abuse. However, combined with a DPS meter, it gives a good picture of a DPS class' performance in a fight.

    As far as other classes? buffing classes could probably benefit from some meter showing how much their buffs are contributing to the damage (or heals), healers could probably get a meter that measures over-healing (as well as under-healing) - but really I'm just thinking of possibilities that would give a clear picture of performance for those classes - my point is that I don't believe that a DPS meter alone (or even Healing Done, or HPS) is even close to the epitome of stats. But based off of what we have to work with right now, it's a baby step to finding out more information about the game itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Heck, for half of the classes, the good players know what skill to use in most circumstances, the best players hit exactly the right skill at exactly the right time, every time.
    Y'know, for the most part I agree with that - at least from my experience in LotRO, experimenting while fighting on level mobs, and seeing what seems to drop them quicker. Over Time skills, and the effect of various stats and LI legacies though would be something I'd like to see numbers on, as well as seeing what other DPS classes, or even other players who play the same class as mine do. Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not elitist - but if someone is putting out more damage than I am, and the reason isn't immediately obvious (i.e. better weapon DPS), I'd certainly be curious to how I could improve. Sure, I'm not going to lie - I'd certainly take some pride in out DPS-ing another hunter, but I'm not going to shove it in someone's face. At the same time though, if another hunter out DPS-es me, and decides they want to gloat - it's not going to make me mad, it'll just make me want to do better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I got to watch the game I loved go from something I would fight hard to defend into something I abhorred.... that doesn't happen without leaving scars, and a lot of bad memories.
    See, on the other side of the coin - I see a game, and its community that I've seen utterly trashed on these forums, and when a I started playing said game (only because a friend offered to pay my subscription) I came to realize that - provided those complaints were true at some point, they certainly don't paint a good picture now. Now, I'm not going to say that the average maturity level in that community is anywhere near LotRO's, but at the same time - finding people more mature than a 12 year old isn't difficult. When it game to addons, I expected the worst - as I rolled a DPS class, and kept hearing all the horror stories about meters. However, it's my actual experience with said meters, in that game, that made my position on this debate even more solid. Because, playing a lower tier DPS class, with the immaturity that that game does have, and having to use the dungeon finder to pick up 2-3+ more players to do a heroic - made me a prime target for any griefing that would come. But it didn't.

    I do see where you are coming from, I've been fortunate not to have had to experience it first-hand - even playing a game I didn't expect to like in the first place hasn't given me anything close to it. So if I can't get an overwhelmingly bad experience from playing WoW of all games, I just can't see how this is going to ruin a game with a much narrower appeal, and as a result, a much more mature community.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenR View Post
    Note: when I say watching their meter I don't mean literally staring at their meter the whole fight and missing mechanics. I mean they want a high DPS score so they do stupid stuff all in the name of a higher DPS score.
    So basically you're just saying that there are players who fail at prioritizing mechanics over doing damage - if you take the distraction of the actual meter out of the picture, then your argument against such meters takes a hit; because the same exact thing could be said about a champ using Raging Blades, or a hunter not moving while in the middle of a heartseeker (or swift bow) induction. Even without the actual numbers - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what skills put out more damage, and there are a lot of DPS players out there that like doing damage over anything else.

    What I'm trying to say here is that regardless of whether the numbers are visible or not - there's always the temptation to get in one last shot. Even when LotRO was the only MMO I played, and before I ever used a meter in any MMO, I had that temptation - along with the slight irritation when a mechanic forced me to cut off an induction, or not use a skill. I will agree that leaders putting down DPS lower limits would certainly increase that temptation - but if it isn't necessary for those limits, then they're hurting their own cause. As the expected result would have everybody that's even close to borderline stressing out about the wrong things, and far more likely to give into that temptation.

    As much as I agree that the problems listed in this thread are bad things - even if they happen to a small degree - and as much as they annoy me when I see them happen, I cannot, in good conscience, blame the meters themselves - when I've seen them used, and used them personally in ways that give a much better picture of my class and his skills/specs, and other classes and their skills/specs, far far more than I've seen them misused.
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  25. #275
    Join Date
    May 2010
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    Idaho, USA
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    54

    Re: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

    I'm not sold that dps meter is a bad thing for seperate reason. If you don't use DPS meter, and you see people getting on your case in a non-constructive or offensive way, I consider this a bonus. You now know who isn't worth your time grouping with. Its oil and water in my opinion. Things like this just draw the line more clearly regarding peoples character that likely already existed before they had a tool to measure themselves to others. The people who aren't calling you out, or who constructively work with you to raise dps, etc.. are the people you want to be around imo.

 

 
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