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  1. #1

    Defiler Gourds being b/e/p'd

    Please can we have some consistency on this matter. Defiler gourds are TACTICAL skills. Says so plain as day on the tooltips. And yet, they are consistently being blocked, evaded and even parried by freeps. Even if you wanted to consider them ranged attacks, parries? Seriously? If Defiler gourds can be b/e/p'd then creeps should be able to b/e/p RK lightning bolts and Minstrel shouts, afterall, they too are tactical skills. If you want to change defiler gourds to ranged skills, then I want to be able to parry Hunter arrows. Whatever is done, you can't have one rule for one side and another rule for the other side. Consistency, please.
    Wulfhram (Hunter), Boborrin (Champ), Garrth (Captain) assorted others

  2. #2
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    Re: Defiler Gourds being b/e/p'd

    I understand your point and think it is silly that "tactical skills" and be parried...

    But...

    LOLZ at a defiler, or any creep in general, complaining about mitigations/ b/e/p / resistances. You should try playing the game of "How Long Will It Take To Kill The Ranked Defiler" and hear the 5-6 freeps gasp in amazement as they can't take one down while it travels half the map.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000c08ff/signature.png]Winterfell[/charsig]

    For My BW Brethren or Those Who Love Stick Figures [url=http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=322130] 3 Years of Stick Art [/url]
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  3. #3
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    Re: Defiler Gourds being b/e/p'd

    Dev reply from 'ask the devs' part 2, page 3 from october or so of last year.

    Q: Why can Defiler moves, which are tactical skills, be blocked; parried or evaded while all other tactical damage in game, such as the Lore-master's Burning Embers skill, can only be resisted or missed?

    A: The Defiler’s gourd attacks are considered physical damage sources (an orange gourd thrown at your opponent). So the following skills can be missed, blocked, parried, and evaded: Fire Gourd, Plague Gourd, Explosive Gourd, Gooey Gourd. Curse skills (like Curse of the Lethargic Heart) are resistance based.
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  4. #4

    Re: Defiler Gourds being b/e/p'd

    Quote Originally Posted by Loth_Don View Post
    Dev reply from 'ask the devs' part 2, page 3 from october or so of last year.
    It still doesn't make sense. If it's physical then it's physical like the arrow from a Hunter. Can those be parried? Like I said, consistency. If they are only classed as tactical for the sake of convenience with regards to tactical offense/crit ratings, then I can accept that, but they are still ranged, regardless of whether they are physical, cry, song or tactical effects. As such, consistency would require the gourd skills to be un-parryable (think that's a word).
    Wulfhram (Hunter), Boborrin (Champ), Garrth (Captain) assorted others

  5. #5
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    Re: Defiler Gourds being b/e/p'd

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    It still doesn't make sense. If it's physical then it's physical like the arrow from a Hunter. Can those be parried? Like I said, consistency. If they are only classed as tactical for the sake of convenience with regards to tactical offense/crit ratings, then I can accept that, but they are still ranged, regardless of whether they are physical, cry, song or tactical effects. As such, consistency would require the gourd skills to be un-parryable (think that's a word).
    My gourds have been parried for a long time and I always thought it odd- I mean, you can't parry arrows at all. So I agree with you, but I'm just telling you the question was brought directly to a dev, and they said 'working as intended'.

    Btw on another thread I was told parry is a frontal avoidance just like block that can 'avoid' ranged attacks, but I've never seen arrows be parried on my hunter or blackarrow, and all buffs to ranged classes ability to hit refer to reducing block and evade, never parry, nor can i ever recall my elves parrying ranged attacks when i use eldars grace.
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  6. #6

    Re: Defiler Gourds being b/e/p'd

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterfell View Post
    I understand your point and think it is silly that "tactical skills" and be parried...

    But...

    LOLZ at a defiler, or any creep in general, complaining about mitigations/ b/e/p / resistances. You should try playing the game of "How Long Will It Take To Kill The Ranked Defiler" and hear the 5-6 freeps gasp in amazement as they can't take one down while it travels half the map.
    LOLZ at anyone using the argument "because I perceive things to be unbalanced, people have no right to complain about things that are broken". Pretty sure that was just your attempt at trolling, but I'll bite, I'm bored....

    ATTENTION: Wall of text incoming. Ignore if that sort of thing gives you headaches. Smart comments about Walls-of-text don't make you look cool so just take a pass this time.


    If 5-6 freeps can't take down a ranked Defiler quickly, then those 5-6 freeps either fail miserably or are afk. Defilers are relatively weak in terms of survivability when up against a zerg. In fact, I can think of at least 3 freep classes who could survive longer and more effectively on their own vs 5-6 creeps.

    Even if you're right, and Defilers are the survival kings vs a zerg or mini-zerg, then what difference would Gourds not being b/e/p'd make? Defilers survive for however long they do because they have two heals which they can use on the move and a AoE fear (only 3 targets) which can buy them some time to put on induction heals. If the Defiler is being chased by a group of freeps, stops, turns around and wastes power and "not running away" time trying to get off a gourd (and thinks it might make a difference), then there is something terribly wrong with the freeps which are doing the chasing. An offensive change makes no difference whatsoever to the survivability of anyone.

    If you'd like to rephrase and instead refer to how godly Defilers are in 1v1's, then maybe you have a point, but they are no harder to take down in 1v1's than a shield-traited Warden. In fact, the Wardens large morale pool and ability to refresh power by morale surfing at ~half health make a well played shield traited Warden even more of an impossible opponent to beat than a well played Defiler. Anyway, giving them an offensive "advantage" such as making their gourds un-b/e/p-able would in fact only marginally effect the outcome of things since from my experience, freeps resist my curses just as much as they avoid my gourds.

    And for the record, I both play a ranked Defiler, and can and have beaten ranked Defilers in 1v1's on my Champ (./flex), perhaps the second most gimped 1v1 class in the game at the moment after Hunters. I do agree that Defilers are OP in 1v1's though, partly why I enjoy playing one (hehe), but I also understand that "OPness" and "FotM" in this game are temporary. It's all swings and roundabouts. What I'm asking for is not a buff or a nerf, but consistency, that is all. If it ends up being an advantage for Defilers, then ok, but it won't last forever. Some change in the future will rebalance things, but whatever form the next swing takes, it would be nice if at the foundation, skills and abilities are working as intended. I'm sure there's a nice analogy I could come up with about patching up broken bits and rotten foundations, but I'll leave that for you to think about.
    Wulfhram (Hunter), Boborrin (Champ), Garrth (Captain) assorted others

  7. #7
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    Re: Defiler Gourds being b/e/p'd

    Either you're looking to be arguementative yourself or your defilers have not played and trained themselves versus the large grouping that happens mostly of BW. Defilers have amazing escapability when it comes to running away and if the great equalizer the CJ is not present, Defilers can run for days. Between a well place fear, resists, DR for creeps and pots, Defilers are hard to take down. Defilers can get to a friendly NPC quite easily on a red map.

    Now more to your point, if you are looking for consistency tell me what you think about Wargs and the rest of the non-shield equiping creeps being able to block? We have been told by the Dev's "WAI" but I don't see you raising that as a counter point to query/request. Like I said in my original post I then it is silly that a tactical skill can be parried, but obviously from the Dev response, they consider it a physical (whether right or wrong). But we have to deal with what the Devs give us to play with.

    And as for your analogy...probably would have been easier to just us the "crack in the foundation" one and saved us both a bit of time.
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    For My BW Brethren or Those Who Love Stick Figures [url=http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=322130] 3 Years of Stick Art [/url]
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  8. #8
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    Re: Defiler Gourds being b/e/p'd

    Some things might not always make total sense (like a spider blocking and parrying), but some of these things are "ok" in the sense of balance etc.

    Its one of thoose things that its just better to accept as is. I could agree that they probably should change the info on the skill tho, so the skill aint being confused with a "true" tactical skill.

    /Silkdawn
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  9. #9
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    Re: Defiler Gourds being b/e/p'd

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    LOLZ at anyone using the argument "because I perceive things to be unbalanced, people have no right to complain about things that are broken". Pretty sure that was just your attempt at trolling, but I'll bite, I'm bored....

    ATTENTION: Wall of text incoming. Ignore if that sort of thing gives you headaches. Smart comments about Walls-of-text don't make you look cool so just take a pass this time.


    If 5-6 freeps can't take down a ranked Defiler quickly, then those 5-6 freeps either fail miserably or are afk. Defilers are relatively weak in terms of survivability when up against a zerg. In fact, I can think of at least 3 freep classes who could survive longer and more effectively on their own vs 5-6 creeps.

    Even if you're right, and Defilers are the survival kings vs a zerg or mini-zerg, then what difference would Gourds not being b/e/p'd make? Defilers survive for however long they do because they have two heals which they can use on the move and a AoE fear (only 3 targets) which can buy them some time to put on induction heals. If the Defiler is being chased by a group of freeps, stops, turns around and wastes power and "not running away" time trying to get off a gourd (and thinks it might make a difference), then there is something terribly wrong with the freeps which are doing the chasing. An offensive change makes no difference whatsoever to the survivability of anyone.

    If you'd like to rephrase and instead refer to how godly Defilers are in 1v1's, then maybe you have a point, but they are no harder to take down in 1v1's than a shield-traited Warden. In fact, the Wardens large morale pool and ability to refresh power by morale surfing at ~half health make a well played shield traited Warden even more of an impossible opponent to beat than a well played Defiler. Anyway, giving them an offensive "advantage" such as making their gourds un-b/e/p-able would in fact only marginally effect the outcome of things since from my experience, freeps resist my curses just as much as they avoid my gourds.

    And for the record, I both play a ranked Defiler, and can and have beaten ranked Defilers in 1v1's on my Champ (./flex), perhaps the second most gimped 1v1 class in the game at the moment after Hunters. I do agree that Defilers are OP in 1v1's though, partly why I enjoy playing one (hehe), but I also understand that "OPness" and "FotM" in this game are temporary. It's all swings and roundabouts. What I'm asking for is not a buff or a nerf, but consistency, that is all. If it ends up being an advantage for Defilers, then ok, but it won't last forever. Some change in the future will rebalance things, but whatever form the next swing takes, it would be nice if at the foundation, skills and abilities are working as intended. I'm sure there's a nice analogy I could come up with about patching up broken bits and rotten foundations, but I'll leave that for you to think about.
    "OPness", I just had to repeat that.

    Tbh, I don't see the problem with defiler gourds being parried anymore. They can't be resisted. And a slow moving gourd can be deflected off your sword, whereas a fast speed arrow isn't going to be parried. Freep bpe is just around as high as creep resists, and you would know that if you've played any tactical classes out there. It should show on the tooltip that gourds can only be bpe'd though. I used to not think that gourds should be able to be parried, but that was before creep resists got megabuffed.
    Last edited by babaju2; Jun 24 2010 at 02:21 PM.
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