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  1. #1
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    Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    So a though occurred to me.... what if the Leader of Men trait line became the Tanking traitline (while still supporting the herald), and Lead the Charge went to pure DPS?

    Thoughts?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  2. #2

    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    You would become like the WoW pally?
    Prot/Holy/Ret? :P

    But just for discussion sake, I would prefer Leader of Men to be dps tree and Lead the Charge to be the tanking tree. The names just sound more right that way to me.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    It would seem to me the way Turbine was broken down the traitlines for all classes is thus:

    One line to enhance the classes main function
    One line to enhance the classes secondery function
    One line to create a new function, generally at the expence of the primary function.

    So for Captians this would mean Leader of Men will enhance our primary function of buffing and pets. But now we are a hybrid class, we have three secondery functions. So Turbine decided to make healing a full line and split DPS and tanking in the third line. This is why our DPS and tanking seem weak, they are a hybrid line in a hybrid class making them much weaker then a primary function.

    I propose no solution for this, I simple point out the facts as I see them.

    a final note to the DPS Captains: where Turbine has provided a DPS stance or spec they have always caused this spec to negetivly impact the primary function of the class. I.e. Guards can not use shield in OP and thus can not tank (because many of their taunts require the use of a shield) mini's in WS take huge hit to healing, DPS spec LM's lose blinding flash ect. Our primary function is buffing and pets, buffing is important to tanking Captians, the archer is important to DPS Captians. I really don't see where a stance/spec could work in this instance but I hope Turbine is more creative then I am.

  4. #4
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    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    The issue is that Turbine takes a different approach to the hybrid class, it's faily obvious as well. A previous posted compared the Captain to a WoW pally. The captain is nowhere near what a Paladin is in WoW. While they share come core concepts such as buffing/healing/tanking/dps, the mechanics are so vastly different.

    When specced, WoW pallies are great DPS'ers, awsome tanks, and more or less heal with a fire hose of holy light. The thing is, each of these roles are easily played, and played well. Captains are significantly more subtle, and for that matter to do well at tanking/healing/damage you need to really excel.

    I prefer the way the Captain plays personally, I have to try harder to do well and I find that generally fulfilling. Anyhow I digress.

    Turbine treats Captains in a somewhat unique manner. Since we can perform all roles, sometime all 3 in any given encounter we are subject to higher power usage and the like. But when it comes to traits lines we are bucketed like the previous posted laid out.

    HoH is our only "true" line, and could for all intents and purposes be considered the captains main trait line. Leader of men, is ok for buffs, but it does little to really enhance the potency of our buffs. Only the duration of a select few, and frankly LoM affects the herald more than it does fellow members. Plus most of our buffing improvements come out of LI's, so there is room for using LoM as a DPS line.

    Since turbine seems to treat captains a bit differently in terms of mechanics(ie power cost, and being secondary at everything). I'd like to see us get a bit of a more unique approach to trait lines. Once again this is all my own opinion.

    HoH: could stay the same, it's a great group support line, excellent for raiding and main healing 3/6 man groups. Little needs to be done to HoH imho.

    Lead the Charge: Make this the de-facto tanking line. The deeper we go into the line the higher threat bonus/evade bonus we get. Perhaps even a max target increase for some AOE tanking ability.

    Leader of Men: Make this the de-facto DPS line. I'd like to see a choice between having a sustained damage output with low power usage or high burst high power usage. Though I don't know how workable that would be in a tree. Though it's possible trait selection could come heavily into play here where choosing between using traits to buff a herald or traits to buff our own self damage. Regardless, I'd trade sustained damage in favor of heavy burst damage.

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  5. #5
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    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    Honestly I'd much rather see the Leader of Men trait line enhance buffing/group play ability in some significant way. As it stands we get basically all the potential group enhancing benefits from just using traited war-cry and maybe tactical prowess and the Kick causing FM is basically useless without a 5 second interrupt like other classes.

  6. #6
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    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    Quote Originally Posted by khagan27 View Post
    It would seem to me the way Turbine was broken down the traitlines for all classes is thus:

    One line to enhance the classes main function
    One line to enhance the classes secondery function
    One line to create a new function, generally at the expence of the primary function.

    So for Captians this would mean Leader of Men will enhance our primary function of buffing and pets.

    .. and there aren't that much buffs either.. oh and not every captain do pets..

    But now we are a hybrid class,

    We are the king of hybrid, all the classes are hybrid.

    we have three secondery functions.

    I'd say we have tools

    So Turbine decided to make healing a full line and split DPS and tanking in the third line. This is why our DPS and tanking seem weak, they are a hybrid line in a hybrid class making them much weaker then a primary function.

    The idea of the path isn't that bad but i used to play without them and i could go back there any time, it makes the thing all wrong and make people have a close minded vision of the classes.

    I propose no solution for this, I simple point out the facts as I see them.

    That what i said, people limit themselves within specific lines. Before moria we were drawing these roles without the crutch.

    a final note to the DPS Captains: where Turbine has provided a DPS stance or spec they have always caused this spec to negetivly impact the primary function of the class. I.e. Guards can not use shield in OP and thus can not tank (because many of their taunts require the use of a shield) mini's in WS take huge hit to healing, DPS spec LM's lose blinding flash ect. Our primary function is buffing and pets, buffing is important to tanking Captians, the archer is important to DPS Captians. I really don't see where a stance/spec could work in this instance but I hope Turbine is more creative then I am.

    There you compare "stances" and "path bonuses". They are both different thing.

    Stance : it gives a bonuses with a penalty to a classes aspect.
    Path Bonuses : it gives bonuses to a classes aspect without penalty. (read specialization).
    Waffle, waffle

    Quote Originally Posted by Thalifea View Post
    The issue is that Turbine takes a different approach to the hybrid class, it's faily obvious as well. A previous posted compared the Captain to a WoW pally. The captain is nowhere near what a Paladin is in WoW. While they share come core concepts such as buffing/healing/tanking/dps, the mechanics are so vastly different.

    Indeed.

    When specced, WoW pallies are great DPS'ers, awsome tanks, and more or less heal with a fire hose of holy light. The thing is, each of these roles are easily played, and played well. Captains are significantly more subtle, and for that matter to do well at tanking/healing/damage you need to really excel.

    Same Arch-type, different concept

    I prefer the way the Captain plays personally, I have to try harder to do well and I find that generally fulfilling. Anyhow I digress.

    I like it too, though its not really harder. Just to test it, i'm leveling my second captain and seriously its a lot more easier then it use to be and i did it on a server where i've no toon so i've no backup

    Turbine treats Captains in a somewhat unique manner. Since we can perform all roles, sometime all 3 in any given encounter we are subject to higher power usage and the like. But when it comes to traits lines we are bucketed like the previous posted laid out.

    It is a question of balance, nothing more.

    HoH is our only "true" line, and could for all intents and purposes be considered the captains main trait line. Leader of men, is ok for buffs, but it does little to really enhance the potency of our buffs. Only the duration of a select few, and frankly LoM affects the herald more than it does fellow members. Plus most of our buffing improvements come out of LI's, so there is room for using LoM as a DPS line.

    I still agree here has well.. There are a few things that could be done to improve LtC, i've no real idea on LoM from far it still ok, though i'd need to throw the stick away and look at it.

    Since turbine seems to treat captains a bit differently in terms of mechanics(ie power cost, and being secondary at everything). I'd like to see us get a bit of a more unique approach to trait lines. Once again this is all my own opinion.

    I'm starting to have some very naughty ideas about how to improve these paths..

    HoH: could stay the same, it's a great group support line, excellent for raiding and main healing 3/6 man groups. Little needs to be done to HoH imho.

    It is perfect as it is.

    Lead the Charge: Make this the de-facto tanking line. The deeper we go into the line the higher threat bonus/evade bonus we get. Perhaps even a max target increase for some AOE tanking ability.

    Strangely i would keep it as it is : tank and dps.

    Stronger attack, greater threat, Parry Tanking, A second AoE attack and a credible self-heal. Everything that make a tank a tank.


    Leader of Men: Make this the de-facto DPS line. I'd like to see a choice between having a sustained damage output with low power usage or high burst high power usage. Though I don't know how workable that would be in a tree. Though it's possible trait selection could come heavily into play here where choosing between using traits to buff a herald or traits to buff our own self damage. Regardless, I'd trade sustained damage in favor of heavy burst damage.

    //i'll edit later.. i've to work.. darn.
    now with more waffles.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    I think the thing I enjoy most about a Captain is that, no matter how you spec yourself, you're still a "Captain." What I mean is that traiting for damage doesn't mean you get to ignore the healing aspects of your class like with Paladins, a LtC Captain can still throw out Rallying Calls they just won't be as powerful (and probably not as often). A HoH Captain is still at place in the front lines. Captain traits enhance the aspects of the class you enjoy, they don't lock you out of the rest of the class.

    I'm not too sure I would be happy with a DPS Stance that sacrificed other parts of the class and just made us more like an Overpower Guardian or Champion. But, then again, LtC as is obviously isn't working.

  8. #8
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    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    I don't think the captain really needs a huge DPS line, just something a little bit better.

    Lead the CHarge: I'm happy with it being a hybrid DPS/tanking line. What I'd like to see from LtC is about a roughly 20% DPS boost, mostly by returning Devastating Blow and Shadow's Lament to pre-mirkwood status. I'd also like to see some defensive improvements, and somthing better than the measly 5% melee skill power reduction. As it is, I find it impossible to slot LtC without maintaining Now For Wrath, especially when going sword-n-board for tanking. It just costs too much power. In exchange, I'm willing to take a 30% cut in healing abililty.

    Leader of Men: This trait line is a shambles. It seems like it just became a catch all for every trait they could not fit into the other 2 lines. A LoM/LtC hybrid build, using the Archer, is already the best build DPS I can muster. All that is holding LoM back from being a DPS build is the capstone trait, Master of Oaths, and the Oathbreakers Armaments, both of which are useless. If Master of Oaths were changed to increased pets' DPS "dramatically", I'm thinking 50%, and the Oathbreaker Armaments changed our pets' damage type to Shadow or Light damage, it would be a decent DPS line. The goal being to do as much DPS as the above improved LtC line, but less bursty. But, that alone will not satisfy me. I want more utility and variety from the trait line. I want it to become the "hybrid captain" line.

    First, I want differentiation among the heralds. I want the Herald of War to be an effective off-tank, much like the Loremaster's bear, by giving it big moral boost and improving Infuriating Tactics with a bigger taunt. I want the Herald of Hope to get an AOE heal in place of Lend Will. I want the Herald of Victory to get an improved Coordinated Attack that stuns every time it is used. I feel that using a herald is enough of a personal penalty that these improvements are fair.

    Secondly, the trait sets need to be more group oriented. For the 3 trait bonus, I want In Harms Way to prevent skill induction setback. That means that when the Minstrel is getting hammered I can pop IHW and the minstrel will be able to heal for 20 seconds. Or, I will actually be able to cast Escape from Darkness if the Mini dies and all the mobs are on me. I also want the 4 trait bonus modified to a 20% chance to start a Fellowship Maneuver and have the effect moved to Grave Wound, gating the FM chance behind an active Cutting Attack bleed. I hate sacrificing a precious interrupt for a small chance at a FM. As a frame of reference, in addition to the forced FM starters, Burgs can slot a legendary skill for a 20% FM chance, usable every 10 seconds and gated behind a melee crit.

    Finally, I want Blood of Numenor to improve Cry of Vengeance to rez with 40% moral.
    Last edited by SGWB; Jun 15 2010 at 05:58 PM.
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  9. #9
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    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    I think all three of the banner traits need to have some specific boost to the herald ON TOP OF the boost to the buffs themselves. The idea would be to encourage captains to slot the appropriate buff traits when in the appropriate lines (or all three of them to get all of their bonuses for a really strong herald).

    As far as the LoM traits go (http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Captain_Traits for a quick reference)....

    Captain of War [Improve War Cry Buff] - Slotted when going HoH
    Loyalty [Increase Herald Morale, Armor, and Damage]- Good if I ever want to buff the herald.... Would be better if LoM gave us a bog lurker or herald on par with a spiffy LM pet....
    Blood of Númenor [Escape From Darkness revives target at full morale and power] - Interesting... but not strong enough when compared to Captain of War and Defiance
    Captain's Victory [Victory Buff Buff] - Used occasionally when there is more than one captain in whatever group I'm in and I go for the power banner
    Defiance [Last Stand Duration Increased] - Slotted when going HoH
    Composure [Time of Need resets cooldowns on the on defeat skills] - This one is so situational that it's kinda meh....
    Precise Ally [Increases Herald Damage] - Again, same story as the Loyalty
    Tactical Prowess [Increase To Arms Duration] - I have a legacy that does this soo.... yeah no...

    Capstone [Improves Herald, enables Ghost Herald] - When combined with both herald traits, it's still not strong enough... Archer is still to weak for my tastes, and the herald still doesn't do enough damage.

    If Composure and Tactical Prowess are scrapped, that gives us 2 traits that can be created to refocus this line. A potential third trait if Blood of Numenor's bonus is moved to Defy Corruption. So... what should be created in those three slots? Are those traits worth saving? Are there more from this line that should be dropped?
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Jun 17 2010 at 11:05 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  10. #10

    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    If Composer and Tactical Prowess are scrapped, that gives us 2 traits that can be created to refocus this line. A potential third trait if Blood of Numenor's bonus is moved to Defy Corruption. So... what should be created in those three slots? Are those traits worth saving? Are there more from this line that should be dropped?
    The traits I would like to see added would be along the line of improving shield brother skills. I would love for a trait that allows To Arms to affect the entire party. This would obviously be overpowered with the current skill, so possibly they could reduce the amount of damage or increase the cooldown. A 10-15% buff on a 2 min cooldown doesn't seem too overpowered to me. Along similar lines, I would like to see an improved strength of will that adds melee, ranged, and tact defense.

    As for the third, I think a buff to defensive strike would be excellent. This could either be a buff to the damage, or a buff to the amount and proc of the power return on Improved Defensive Strike. The first would help our dps, as this is our main spam skill, however the second might help us far more. If they increased it to be a significant amount, say 125 power at level 65 with a 50% chance proc'ing might go a long way towards easing our power concerns.

    The rest of the Leader of Men line could do with a small buff, Loyalty and Precise Ally should be combined. To fill the hole, there should be a Master Tactician trait that increases RA and OG by 5% and Focus by 10%. Master of War should be increased by 5%.

    For the Capstone, I'd like to see a buff to our fellowship. It could come along with the Oathbreaker herald in the form of an aura, even if he's an archer. The buff could range, but I'd like to see a +mitigation. Something in the line of 5%, not totally overpowered, but much more useful than it is currently.

    Where I'm going with these changes is that I'd like to see the Leader of Men line be much more based around building up a group (or solo with a herald). I'd like to see this build be geared towards sustainability with a small bit of burst that scales with a group. I've always seen a captain as weak solo, and that's ok. The main idea of a Captain is that he's supposed to become more effective the more people he's with. I'm certain that many of these ideas might be a bit much, but I'm not a developer and the numbers could easily be changed.

  11. #11
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    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    I'm not really sure if I want to have a bunch of buffs to our buffs within a traitline... cause you KNOW that's going to be rammed down our throats.... especially in the raiding environment.

    Thoughts on trait changes to help refocus LoM more on the herald than it currently is....

    Master of Oaths: Upgraded to improve the herald/archer the equivalent of Loyalty + Precise Ally... if we're going 5 deep into LoM... our herald/archer should be something spiffy...
    Captain's Victory: Improves herald's/archer's ICPR.
    Captain's Valour: Improves herald's/archer's crit chance and defense penetration
    Captain's Hope: Improves herald's/archer's ICMR.

    Change the 4 Trait bonus for Leader of Men to:
    Your heralds are now summonable in combat, and their cast induction time is halved

    Going off of TheDaniel9's idea for Defensive Strike... how about this trait:
    Defensive Combat:
    Defensive Strike transfers power to you from your opponent on a successful strike.
    Your herald's/archer's mitigations are increased.

    Trying to puzzle out what the last two should be... I do like SGWB's idea for the Blood of Numenor change... (Cry of Vengeance rez's at 40% power an morale for those wondering).. maybe that trait should be altered and remain... so what for the last one?
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Jun 17 2010 at 11:07 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  12. #12
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    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    The problem isn't what the traitlines are/are not supposed to do. The problem is that HoH is the only one that ACTUALLY DOES what it's supposed to do. I went over the train wreck that is Leader of Men in this thread and, well, while the idea behind Leader of Men is good, most of the traits in it don't actually support the purpose, nor do the trait line bonuses.

    Leader of Men needs to be turned into something that makes your FELLOWSHIP BETTER. You know, because you are leading them to great deeds. I have no problems with this line having boosts to buffs, because lets face it, we're already "expected" to be in HoH pretty much all the time, so it's really a problem if we are instead "expected" to be in Leader of Men for raids or groups or whatever. Frankly, I think it'd be pretty much a GOOD sign if we were expected to be in groups as power multiplier instead of just a backup healing source that happens to provide some buffs.

    Lead the Charge has its own issues; I maintain it should be our most effective solo DPS trait line, but should be left completely by the curb for full fellowship stuff, because in a full fellowship, the captain's personal DPS isn't his main contribution. With that in mind, I'd propose a strong boost to Lead the Charge in terms of DPS, but have it disable our shield brother skill. That makes it great when you're solo (no shield brother anyway) or tanking (only really losing the DPS from To Arms) but a bad idea in a full fellowship/raid situation.

    So that means we get this breakdown:

    Hands of Healing: Anytime more healing is paramount. Healing for small fellowships, additional healing for full groups/raids.
    Leader of Men: Best DPS line for full fellows/raids. To be used whenever DPS in those circumstances is more important than extra healing.
    Lead the Charge: Best solo/small fellowship DPS line, tanking.

    It wouldn't be hard to get us there, but some action needs to happen.

  13. #13

    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    Leader of Men needs to be turned into something that makes your FELLOWSHIP BETTER. You know, because you are leading them to great deeds. I have no problems with this line having boosts to buffs, because lets face it, we're already "expected" to be in HoH pretty much all the time, so it's really a problem if we are instead "expected" to be in Leader of Men for raids or groups or whatever. Frankly, I think it'd be pretty much a GOOD sign if we were expected to be in groups as power multiplier instead of just a backup healing source that happens to provide some buffs.

    Lead the Charge has its own issues; I maintain it should be our most effective solo DPS trait line, but should be left completely by the curb for full fellowship stuff, because in a full fellowship, the captain's personal DPS isn't his main contribution. With that in mind, I'd propose a strong boost to Lead the Charge in terms of DPS, but have it disable our shield brother skill. That makes it great when you're solo (no shield brother anyway) or tanking (only really losing the DPS from To Arms) but a bad idea in a full fellowship/raid situation.
    It wouldn't be hard to get us there, but some action needs to happen.
    I like the offset you put into LtC, disabling Shield Brother seems like a good move, since it does very little to shield brother an archer. I would add that to compensate for this, loyalty and/or Precise Ally should get a sizable buff, but I think that needs to happen anyways.

    In my view, Leader of Men should be the go-to trait line for instance and group runs, just like tanking is the go-to trait line for Guards in instances. We should be able to go HoH or LtC if we want/need to, but I feel that we need to step in to our indented roll. One trait that could work towards this is one sharing shield brother skills at half value to the fellowship, maybe on a decreased duration. Another trait I think would be beneficial in this way would be a bonus to our marks. I'd like to stay away from percent increases and alter the usage. Make Telling Mark also increase Critical chance, Revealing Mark add a power on hit, and Noble Mark transfer some of your threat to your shield brother. These are just off the top of my head, feel free to alter/add.

    To this end, the set bonuses really need to be looked at in a major way. The kick buff needs to get out of here. In its place, I would rather see something that buffs our herald's abilities. The auras from the heralds and the damage of the archer. I personally think that splitting the Herald buffs in the different trait lines limits our abilities. We have to choose Hope, Victory, War, or Archer instead of being able to change them on the fly. I like the idea about being able to summon heralds in combat. We can already switch banners, why not heralds? This could be a part of the legendary cap, if they truly want to keep a pet buff as the capstone.

  14. #14
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    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDaniel9 View Post
    I like the offset you put into LtC, disabling Shield Brother seems like a good move, since it does very little to shield brother an archer. I would add that to compensate for this, loyalty and/or Precise Ally should get a sizable buff, but I think that needs to happen anyways.

    In my view, Leader of Men should be the go-to trait line for instance and group runs, just like tanking is the go-to trait line for Guards in instances. We should be able to go HoH or LtC if we want/need to, but I feel that we need to step in to our indented roll. One trait that could work towards this is one sharing shield brother skills at half value to the fellowship, maybe on a decreased duration. Another trait I think would be beneficial in this way would be a bonus to our marks. I'd like to stay away from percent increases and alter the usage. Make Telling Mark also increase Critical chance, Revealing Mark add a power on hit, and Noble Mark transfer some of your threat to your shield brother. These are just off the top of my head, feel free to alter/add.

    To this end, the set bonuses really need to be looked at in a major way. The kick buff needs to get out of here. In its place, I would rather see something that buffs our herald's abilities. The auras from the heralds and the damage of the archer. I personally think that splitting the Herald buffs in the different trait lines limits our abilities. We have to choose Hope, Victory, War, or Archer instead of being able to change them on the fly. I like the idea about being able to summon heralds in combat. We can already switch banners, why not heralds? This could be a part of the legendary cap, if they truly want to keep a pet buff as the capstone.
    Shield brother skills are too crucial to the class to disable for LtC... that's just wrong anyhow. Why nerf LtC just to make LoM better? That's not doing anything, plus more captains are going to hate you for it, than if you just leave LoM as a complete mess. And as odd as this sounds to say, HoH should also NOT be nerfed just to make LoM better.

    If we turn LoM into a buffing traitline, then it's going to be in higher demanded over LtC and HoH, which is exactly like the current situation, but with HoH and LoM's places exchanged - so we're back where we started with a very small subset of the captains actually "winning". If our buffs aren't buffed correctly, we start running the risk of getting kicked after we buff a group, something which may start happening in PUGs. LoM itself does feel like it adds that much to combat as LtC and HoH do - which is why I'm rarely yellow. The other reason was the complete suck of a Captain Vs LM pet duel with the ghosty.

    Sharing shield brother skills at half value to the entire fellowship is grossly broken - we give a single target +25% damage increase, and everyone else 12.5% damage increase for 25 seconds with a minute cooldown? Or how about +20% healing to one target with +10% to everyone else for two minutes, recastable every minute and a half (effectively perpetual)? Should Inspire share half of 85-122 morale every three seconds for 15 seconds with the group? Between those three skills, the increase in damage to the fellowship is something that only a capstone should do. Those numbers are also pulled in game while I'm mostly HoH spec (dropped SfW so I could test on a herald) without the inspire buff.

    I would rather leave any form of power transfer to either personal, or left to the lore masters. That's one of their signiture abilities, we don't need to make it one of ours. Modifying Telling mark is interesting, but that modification will essentially force all captains to carry it (think of how captains without a maxed Telling Mark legacy are treated now).

    I would rather focus LoM into making the herald/archer better, with several solid utility skills in it.

    As far as LtC goes, giving the capstone a +5% damage bonus would probably give it enough oomph to make it a decent rival to HoH, without making it overpowered. Intimidation should also give us threat for each attack, similar to how a halberd works. We leave mitigations up to the Captain's gear, and have LtC focus on the threat side of tanking... seems like a good trade off.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  15. #15

    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    We need the Archer herald at level 20 or 30 imho.

    With most leveling being done solo nowadays, and Captains being the only class without a dedicated DPS stance/mode, it makes low-mid leveling ssssllllooooowww
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  16. #16

    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    You're silly. Your *dps* stance is your war banner.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a0100000c3659/signature.png]Emberosash[/charsig]

  17. #17

    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Shield brother skills are too crucial to the class to disable for LtC... that's just wrong anyhow. Why nerf LtC just to make LoM better? That's not doing anything, plus more captains are going to hate you for it, than if you just leave LoM as a complete mess. And as odd as this sounds to say, HoH should also NOT be nerfed just to make LoM better.

    If we turn LoM into a buffing traitline, then it's going to be in higher demanded over LtC and HoH, which is exactly like the current situation, but with HoH and LoM's places exchanged - so we're back where we started with a very small subset of the captains actually "winning". If our buffs aren't buffed correctly, we start running the risk of getting kicked after we buff a group, something which may start happening in PUGs. LoM itself does feel like it adds that much to combat as LtC and HoH do - which is why I'm rarely yellow. The other reason was the complete suck of a Captain Vs LM pet duel with the ghosty.

    Sharing shield brother skills at half value to the entire fellowship is grossly broken - we give a single target +25% damage increase, and everyone else 12.5% damage increase for 25 seconds with a minute cooldown? Or how about +20% healing to one target with +10% to everyone else for two minutes, recastable every minute and a half (effectively perpetual)? Should Inspire share half of 85-122 morale every three seconds for 15 seconds with the group? Between those three skills, the increase in damage to the fellowship is something that only a capstone should do. Those numbers are also pulled in game while I'm mostly HoH spec (dropped SfW so I could test on a herald) without the inspire buff.

    I would rather leave any form of power transfer to either personal, or left to the lore masters. That's one of their signiture abilities, we don't need to make it one of ours. Modifying Telling mark is interesting, but that modification will essentially force all captains to carry it (think of how captains without a maxed Telling Mark legacy are treated now).

    I would rather focus LoM into making the herald/archer better, with several solid utility skills in it.

    As far as LtC goes, giving the capstone a +5% damage bonus would probably give it enough oomph to make it a decent rival to HoH, without making it overpowered. Intimidation should also give us threat for each attack, similar to how a halberd works. We leave mitigations up to the Captain's gear, and have LtC focus on the threat side of tanking... seems like a good trade off.
    First, I'd like to agree with you that LoM shouldn't be a buffing line. I've revised my opinion on the Master Tactician trait, as that would just become a requirement for any and all group content. Second, we differ greatly on our opinion of what LoM really should be about. You seem to be in favor of a line that is focused on solo DPS, as opposed to helping the fellowship. The problem with having the herald buffs in this line is that heralds are often not wanted in groups and openly mocked. Now, this could be changed with a sizable buff to them, but still leaves this trait line as third tier when it comes to group content. I would like to see this line be a viable and desired trait line as an alternative to HoH (not a replacement).

    On your notes: after seeing the numbers, yes, the Shield Brother fellowship skills would be a bit too powerful. I still like the idea of spreading the buff though, so perhaps it could be altered. You suggested making it a Capstone, which I'm all for. That would truly be on par with HoH and would be much more group oriented then a pet buff. On the overpowered note,
    it might work at a quarter the amount. Also, remember I stated that these could be on a decreased duration. 106.25% damage for 10 sec every 2 min, 105% healing for 30 sec every 90 sec and 43-61 morale every 3 sec doesn't seem as overpowered. This would still be a great aid to any fellowship though. Keeping it a capstone also makes it much more of a line definer. It says "This is the line for aiding a fellowship if you don't want to heal". A mouthful, but it cements the line.
    On Revealing Mark, you may have misunderstood me. I was thinking a fairly small power on hit, something like 5%. This doesn't take away a roll of a Loremaster, it simply alters the ability to give some endurance to a group during particularly long fights. In a way, it actually helps out any Loremaster, because they then have to share power less often with a hunter or Champ and can focus on the healer, as the healer usually doesn't hit the enemy they're fighting.
    On Telling Mark, you may be right. That was off the top of my head and could force it to be traited. Another possibility might be to disable some of their B/P/E, or possibly have a chance on hit of giving a buff to attack duration. Again, these aren't very well thought out, I'd like to see some other ideas. The main thought is to increase the damage done through Telling Mark, but not through increasing its base % damage.

    I think your ideas for LtC are very good. The DPS in that line needs to be buffed. Adding 5% damage on the cap is a good idea, another might be to increase critical chance. I especially think that adding threat to all moves with Intimidation would go a long way towards making us viable as a main tank when absolutely needed.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    1,651

    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    Quote Originally Posted by landy View Post
    You're silly. Your *dps* stance is your war banner.
    The War banner's 20% DPS boost isn't as effective as an Archer traited with Loyalty and Precise Ally. We can't use an Archer and banner simultaneously.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000003071/01008/signature.png]Kalbarad[/charsig]

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,600

    Re: Leader of Men and Lead the Charge

    I'm looking at what LoM seems to focus on and run with it. Some of the suggestions SGWB made regarding the different heralds and archer acting closer to the variety of LM pets might help with that.

    My primary thought on LoM is to make it our herald buff tree, but give it enough other tricks that it makes an interesting choice when compared to HoH. Telling Mark is best left alone. Same for Revealing Mark for that matter. Any traits for either of these two marks will become mandatory for all captains in raid environments. I'd rather avoid anything that alters our buffs anymore than what we have now because I really don't want a LoM traitline crammed down my throat.... Thus the focus on making the herald better. I'd like to see captains not being looked down upon for using a herald - and that can change if the herald can rival the best of the LM pets. This would also allow LoM to focus on DPS/utility, LtC onDPS/tanking, and HoH on healing, giving each line something unique about them, hopefully allowing the emergence of subclasses within the captain class.

    The problem with "making the fellowship better" is in defining exactly what that really means. Are we increasing mitigations or other related stats so the fellowship takes less damage? How about damage or other related stats so things die faster? What about morale and power regeneration so we can fight longer? How do we help the fellowship in well thought out way that DOES NOT overpower LoM?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

 

 

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