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  1. #1

    Little Rumbi is crying.

    I used to love my burglar. Among my 8 maxed alts, he was the 2nd or 3rd most played at 75. Back in Rise of Isengard, Rumbold the "Quiet Gambler" (5r/2b) was the toast of many a Fellowship for keeping Frost Saruman busy, debuffing Durchest, teasing Thorog and tweaking Gortheron's nose.

    Poor Rumbi now spends his time crying softly in the Galtrev craft hall, wearing his chicken outfit and sitting in the scholar's study with the records of his past deeds in leather-bound journals around him. Occasionally he goes home to the Shire to sniffle into a pint of Toad-Tongue Ale and reflect on the great days of his youth. Only his pet chicken and the occasional kinnie or friend patting him on the head tell him that he was once a contender.

    Now, every time he gets close to a boss they splat him despite capped mits, his 22k morale and high Critical Defence. The legions of adds take him ages to hack through while his tank and healer try frantically to survive. Even his Mischievous tricks don't help much to heal the Fellowship. And the Ettenmoors is full of ego-crazed epeeners so he doesn't go there. He killed Bloodtail once 1v1 in Hoarhallow, and that's enough for him.

    So the point of this tale of woe:

    What do burgs do outside the moors these days? What do they bring to a Fellowship? CJs are weak, they are squishy, they have no range and no AOE, and melee bosses are designed for heavies. Unless you are a true pro like some on this forum, how are you supposed to survive or contribute?

    Devs, please make Fellowship Manoeuvres useful again.

    100s: Aedfrith (HN), Aldnoth (CP), Hrolfdan (MN), Aldfryd (WD), Morriarty (CH), Aednoth (LM), Mishhar (BR), Hraldan (GR), Rumbold (BG): The little ones - Rumbelina (MN), Brai (RK)
    Rangers of Eriador (officer), Snowbourn
    A Noob for All Seasons

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedfrith View Post

    Devs, please make Fellowship Manoeuvres useful again.
    That is not the solution. It never is :-).

    The issue with the burglar is the insane mitigation curve for medium armour, which is here to keep wardens in check. You can't get proper mitigations/health and have good amount of physical mastery. This leads to terrible DPS even when you have positional damage. Add to that the fact that burglar DPS is not that strong anymore because of the Faint attack nerf, which gave proper +%dmg before. The thing is the class is in terrible spot everywhere - it has subpar survival skills (T&G doesn't work for almost anything anymore) and you have only HIPS, which doesn't stop AOE dmg. Try to compare it with Wardens, that have better single target DPS, better AOE dps, better survival skills(5 morale per vit+double NS) or hunters/RK who still does great dmg while being waaaay safer than the burglar. Which leads to the fact that burglar needs huge DPS buff, so they can at least dish out proper damage when they take good position. This could be achieved by giving the burglar the old ettenmoors bonus for 5% dev chance for each Surprise Strike(capped at 20%) and the additional dmg from Faint Attack, which was removed.

    The main thing is that this combined with stealth will make the burglar insanely Overpowered in moors/osgiliath. I aggree that this would happen, so it is up to developers to actually confront this. Maybe remove the FA buff if you are in moors/osgiliath, similiar to hunters DF, while keeping the SS dev chance buff, which would allow better prolonged fights for the burglar. Of course, you would have to fix the medium armour curve for hunters/burgs, because it is annoying to actually need more mitigations rating than Guardians to cap 50% mitigations. Not fun at all.
    POLARIS --> Esta Sinome
    Axeny - 105 Burg R9 | Nemene - 105 RK R11 | Mellar - 105 MIN || Morrolan - 105 LM R8 | Rashek - 105 WRD | Loilosh - 105 CPT | Loixus - 105 BRN
    Loiosh - R13 WL | Paqk - R8 Spider | Magru - R7 Def | Burgker - R6 Warg

  3. #3
    While you point to some good symptoms, you're not addressing the root cause of the problem, Axeny.

    Not everyone who plays burglar wants to PVP. Some want to do instances and raids with it and feel they have something useful to contribute..

    100s: Aedfrith (HN), Aldnoth (CP), Hrolfdan (MN), Aldfryd (WD), Morriarty (CH), Aednoth (LM), Mishhar (BR), Hraldan (GR), Rumbold (BG): The little ones - Rumbelina (MN), Brai (RK)
    Rangers of Eriador (officer), Snowbourn
    A Noob for All Seasons

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedfrith View Post
    While you point to some good symptoms, you're not addressing the root cause of the problem, Axeny.

    Not everyone who plays burglar wants to PVP. Some want to do instances and raids with it and feel they have something useful to contribute..
    True. The thing is Turbine have to think for both, which was one of the main reasons burglar got nerfed, starting with removing the 100% critting dots of cunning attack and the Faint attack +dmg buff, which of course hit the pve burglar. Oh, and about raids the yellow burglar is actually pretty decent, debuffs are really handy + revealing weakness is nice. Stacking all the +inc dmg buffs is nice for the 6man for nuking the mammoth. Disable/Double Disable is pretty cool for hard hitting bosses like BfE t2c. Granted, this is terrible lane for 3mans, where you need to provide uber DPS, which is where the current burglar comes short.

    The solutions which I have provided would be nice and heal both type of burglars. I really hope Turbine has something up in their sleeve for revamping my favourite and main class(although I play way more RK right now) with the next major update, as right now burglars are the most useless/weak freep class both in moors and in PvE.

    CJs woudn't help fixing that issue, because you will always be more useful not locking yourself for 5 seconds and doing stuff. The solution is somewhere else and in my oppinion it is hidden in proper mitigation curve for the hunters/burglars and some DPS increase(+20% dev chance from 4xSS set bonus/returning the +% dmg with Faint Attack) in red line, so you can be useful for 3mans.

    I agree that there is a problem with the current state of the burglar. But the CJs are not the solution and they were not the solution at lvl 75 either, when I agree was an awesome time to be a burgler.
    POLARIS --> Esta Sinome
    Axeny - 105 Burg R9 | Nemene - 105 RK R11 | Mellar - 105 MIN || Morrolan - 105 LM R8 | Rashek - 105 WRD | Loilosh - 105 CPT | Loixus - 105 BRN
    Loiosh - R13 WL | Paqk - R8 Spider | Magru - R7 Def | Burgker - R6 Warg

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedfrith View Post
    Devs, please make Fellowship Manoeuvres useful again.
    Couldn't agree more. It's a shame that this nice feature hasn't experienced any dev love since... uhm, can't really remember...

    @Axeny
    I don't think they'll bring back the dev chance set. Way too overpowered. I still parse nearly the same dps if I equip it instead of 4 essence parts... on an on-level armour this would be totally nuts.
    Dobb - Hobbit Burglar
    Thar - Dwarf Guardian
    ...
    [DE-RP]Belegaer
    R.I.P [DE]Anduin
    Visit my YouTube-Channel!

  6. #6
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    Maybe have the dev crit set bonus or a similar trait spec that instead gives +pos dmg stacks. Up to 4 stacks of ~+10% from SS. Would boost burg overall dps with bosses and long fights as well as reward you in the moors for maintaining positional. Probably no worry of it being op for pvmp since it takes constant correction to maintain positional dmg on anyone unless they're keyboard turning. That or a boost to dmg on stunned targets. Something that is situational and requires you paying attention to maximize.
    "THE EDGE, there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over"
    — Hunter S. Thompson

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedfrith View Post
    What do they bring to a Fellowship?
    Absolutely nothing anymore, sadly. Every other class easily does every job we can do better; plus more.
    Eniigmatik | Exploit

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by TheOrcsBane View Post
    Absolutely nothing anymore, sadly. Every other class easily does every job we can do better; plus more.
    This is sadly true, even for FMs guardians are about on par to open them now..

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    This is sadly true, even for FMs guardians are about on par to open them now..
    above actually, for quite a while now.
    Moridin


    Aut vincere aut mori
    Attitude is everything

    League of Legends HebnesO: Singed The MAD Chemist. - Gold ranked player season one
    Lotro:Minstrel x2, Burglar x2, Lore Master x2, Guardian, Champion, Captain, Hunter, Runekeeper and Warden
    Ranks:3xr10, 5xr7, 2xr6, 2xr5,r4 and r3.. Lvls: 2x75 8x65
    Retired status: Ultra Casual

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by HebnesO View Post
    above actually, for quite a while now.
    Yeah, started with RoR and went downhill from there.
    Eniigmatik | Exploit

  11. #11
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    Burglars need AoE more than anything for burning trash in instances/big battles. When I look at the Guardians bleed tiering and spreading to multiple targets I think it would have been perfect for burgs. Tier up a bleed on the target then flashing blades to spread it to 7 targets with perhaps a legacy for more targets, or a large +% damage to flashing blades on bleeding targets.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordimac View Post
    Burglars need AoE more than anything for burning trash in instances/big battles. When I look at the Guardians bleed tiering and spreading to multiple targets I think it would have been perfect for burgs. Tier up a bleed on the target then flashing blades to spread it to 7 targets with perhaps a legacy for more targets, or a large +% damage to flashing blades on bleeding targets.
    That would be ridiculously great for a Blue Burg.. spreading multiple Cunning Attack Bleeds, a T6 Gamble bleed, and a Tier 4 GA bleed to 7 targets?
    I really want this to happen. But it won't.

  13. #13
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    Frankly, I don't give a flying F-shaped doughnut about PVP.
    Mr. Turbine, fix the faulty burglar DPS.
    If that ends up making the burglar OP for the moors, then ban the burglar from there.
    I don't care about PVP!
    "Just like Mary Shelly, Just like Frankenstein, Break your chains, And count your change, And try to walk the line"

  14. #14
    Coming back to the game with hopes of finally seeing Gondor; bringing my Burglar, my only main since joining the game in Q1 2008, to his homeland. Coming back, only to find a shell of what he was. Disabled.

    I remember the all Burg fellowships of Carn Dum and Urugarth. I remember how we downed Thorog with 24 Burglars. I remember parsing top tier DPS in Vile Maw and Dar Narbugud. I remember playing vital roles in Ost Dunhoth as a CC and debuffer. It almost hurts to remember.

    For old times' sake, I take him around Gondor. When the journey is over, there will be no more heroics, no more accomplishments.

    Rest In Riddles Yalras.
    [CENTER][B]Yalras - Burglar[/B]
    [SIZE=1]Eldar to Evernight[/CENTER][/SIZE]

  15. #15

    Unhappy

    *sigh*

    I've been a member since 2007. First character was a burg. I stopped playing him when RoR came out and switched to a Warden. I just got back on him today, hoping there would be an improvement. I also went onto the forums. Now I'm honestly just sad. I really want to play the burg I used to be during MoM and SoA days. I'm not one to say "Oh Turbine hates us and doesn't care about us!" but... When I look at the state of the burglar and see how useless we are, I can't help but feel that way.

    Why do we not have the highest single target dps? Is it because of PvP? If that is the case, and PvE burgs are suffering for it, it is purely from lazy devs who don't want to put in the time to balance this class for PvE and PvP. It can be done, they just aren't willing to do it. The burg is terrible at group PvE, solo PvE, and semi okay at PvP. But all the other classes do it better.

    I just don't understand why the burg has been forsaken. How long has it been since a dev has even posted on the forums or said they were going to work on the burg? Guess I'll go back over to my Warden and own in PvP, solo some 6 mans, and go clear a camp of 30 mobs in one pull...

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Daugon View Post
    *sigh*

    I've been a member since 2007. First character was a burg. I stopped playing him when RoR came out and switched to a Warden. I just got back on him today, hoping there would be an improvement. I also went onto the forums. Now I'm honestly just sad. I really want to play the burg I used to be during MoM and SoA days. I'm not one to say "Oh Turbine hates us and doesn't care about us!" but... When I look at the state of the burglar and see how useless we are, I can't help but feel that way.

    Why do we not have the highest single target dps? Is it because of PvP? If that is the case, and PvE burgs are suffering for it, it is purely from lazy devs who don't want to put in the time to balance this class for PvE and PvP. It can be done, they just aren't willing to do it. The burg is terrible at group PvE, solo PvE, and semi okay at PvP. But all the other classes do it better.

    I just don't understand why the burg has been forsaken. How long has it been since a dev has even posted on the forums or said they were going to work on the burg? Guess I'll go back over to my Warden and own in PvP, solo some 6 mans, and go clear a camp of 30 mobs in one pull...
    I quit for 4 years and came back to the current state of lotro in April. It didn't take long to realize the burg was not what it used to be....and everyone mentioned this was due to imbalances in PvP. However, you can look at every other class and find these imbalances from the PvE to PvP transition. Healing is the obvious one. Healing in PvP is a joke. However, they justify the ridiculously overpowered healing capabilities of some classes by saying it's necessary to tackle the PvE content. Why burgs got the short end of this PvE/PvP balance stick is beyond me. It also appears we are suffering from apparent attempts to nerf wardens with the medium armour mitigation caps. While not the only reason, if you look at two of the weakest classes for PvP at the moment (i.e., hunters and burgs), it becomes evident that this is a significant contributor. *Note, I don't necessarily feel underpowered in PvP. However, I've spent hundreds of hours tweaking builds, gearing up, modifying playstyles, and rearranging keybinds just to be able to compete. Any random player of some of these more capable classes can jump right into content and have success. This is far from the case with burgs. Hunters have been whining for changes in various threads. Maybe it's time that the burglar community speaks a bit louder.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurtful View Post
    Maybe it's time that the burglar community speaks a bit louder.
    What's the point? Turbine doesn't give a rat's *ss about their customers, as far as they are concerned we will just moan and go play another class so it's no skin off their nose! They don't realise what they might be missing in customers' money, I haven't paid them a penny since Helm's Deep and I know others who say the same. I wonder how much profit they have lost due to disgruntled customers they never bother to listen to?

  18. #18
    Put "Double down" onto the blue line passive and remove the grace period on a disabling gamble and 75% of the issues pertaining to burglar PvMP go away (leaving room for them to be buffed properly for PvE and PvP).

    Positional damage should be slightly ahead of a Fire-RK and hunter given the melee and positional requirements, and total lack of aoe (I don't want to see burgs get AoE, however).

    Medium Mit curve should cap should stay at the same point, but light cap should be moved up to 16658 and heavy up to ~20600. With all the essence slots we have now, its not that the medium curve is too harsh, its that the others are too easy.

    Positional dmg shouldn't be buffed, its already insanely powerful relative to non-positional, meaning burgs are incredibly reliant on cooldowns (trip, exploit opening, stun dust, startling twist) a tank, or silly mechanics (provoke spam) for their dps. Positional dmg generally isn't strong enough in sustained boss-fights, but all base dmg should be improved to bring positional into alignment, rather than procs/buffs to positional making the class even more sink or swim on positional. I see this argument as similar to champs and their frustration over their massive crit multipliers, and awful non-crit dmg; the solution for them isn't bigger crit multipliers just as more positional buffs isn't for burgs, its already rewarding enough.

    A viable power restore trait should be added to the first 1-2 tiers of yellow line, so that the major issues blue/red suffer in power consumption can be at least somewhat mitigated.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammadryad View Post
    What's the point? Turbine doesn't give a rat's *ss about their customers, as far as they are concerned we will just moan and go play another class so it's no skin off their nose! They don't realise what they might be missing in customers' money, I haven't paid them a penny since Helm's Deep and I know others who say the same. I wonder how much profit they have lost due to disgruntled customers they never bother to listen to?
    No offense, but that is a terrible attitude to have. Giving up is not what I would like to do, and is not what the burg community should do. Unfortunately, our burg community is in a vicious cycle. Because burgs suck, fewer and fewer people are playing burgs. And because fewer burgs are playing, there are fewer people to complain. This removes the weight of our complaints. The longer we wait to 'speak up', the less likely things are to change.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Daugon View Post
    No offense, but that is a terrible attitude to have. Giving up is not what I would like to do, and is not what the burg community should do. Unfortunately, our burg community is in a vicious cycle. Because burgs suck, fewer and fewer people are playing burgs. And because fewer burgs are playing, there are fewer people to complain. This removes the weight of our complaints. The longer we wait to 'speak up', the less likely things are to change.
    "...... as far as they are concerned we will just moan and go play another class so it's no skin off their nose!" Since fewer and fewer players are playing Burgs and going to play other classes instead it sort of proves my point doesn't it?

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Put "Double down" onto the blue line passive and remove the grace period on a disabling gamble and 75% of the issues pertaining to burglar PvMP go away (leaving room for them to be buffed properly for PvE and PvP).

    Positional damage should be slightly ahead of a Fire-RK and hunter given the melee and positional requirements, and total lack of aoe (I don't want to see burgs get AoE, however).

    Medium Mit curve should cap should stay at the same point, but light cap should be moved up to 16658 and heavy up to ~20600. With all the essence slots we have now, its not that the medium curve is too harsh, its that the others are too easy.

    Positional dmg shouldn't be buffed, its already insanely powerful relative to non-positional, meaning burgs are incredibly reliant on cooldowns (trip, exploit opening, stun dust, startling twist) a tank, or silly mechanics (provoke spam) for their dps. Positional dmg generally isn't strong enough in sustained boss-fights, but all base dmg should be improved to bring positional into alignment, rather than procs/buffs to positional making the class even more sink or swim on positional. I see this argument as similar to champs and their frustration over their massive crit multipliers, and awful non-crit dmg; the solution for them isn't bigger crit multipliers just as more positional buffs isn't for burgs, its already rewarding enough.

    A viable power restore trait should be added to the first 1-2 tiers of yellow line, so that the major issues blue/red suffer in power consumption can be at least somewhat mitigated.
    i personally would love a positional buff first it wouldnt affect pvp much (if creep dont turn its his fault) and you can buff pve quite alot dont.... think its insanely powerful

  22. #22
    >> I wonder how much profit they have lost due to disgruntled customers they never bother to listen to?

    Well lets see now, twenty nine servers reduced down to ten is a pretty good indication!

    >> I haven't paid them a penny since Helm's Deep and I know others who say the same.

    In the years leading up to Helms Deep, Turbine made it pretty clear on the forums that the only vote their players had, was with their wallet!

    It's a lesson a great many have taken to heart.

  23. #23
    Wow, so many terrible burgs, all grouped up in one thread. How can all of you be so bad as to cry about the burg class, it has the best ST dps in the game (assuming positional, which does not take a miracle to get, despite what some would have you believe) and has some of the best debuffs in the game. All of you need to go and learn the class you are crying about and how to play it optimally, better that than just crying about how bad you are.
    Last edited by Thaelon; Nov 10 2015 at 09:27 AM.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaelon View Post
    Wow, so many terrible burgs, all grouped up in one thread. How can all of you be so bad as to cry about the burg class, it has the best ST dps in the game (assuming positional, which does not take a miracle to get, despite what some would have you believe) and has some of the best debuffs in the game. All of you need to go and learn the class you are crying about and how to play it optimally, better that than just crying about how bad you are.
    1. "best ST dps in the game (assuming positional...)" - So, assuming this is true, unless there's a tank in the groupyou will always be pulling aggro... effectively taking away that positional damage.

    Also, if you're out dps'ing a fire RK then that's the RK's fault. I don't care how "good" or "efficient" you are at burglar; I agree the class does do better ST dps than most would believe if you know your stuff and are geared well, but definitely NOT the best ST in game.

    2. "some of the best debuffs in the game" - Aside from PvP, show me where such awesome debuffs are even necessary. That's like the whole argument here... burglar is a debuff/cc class in a game that's content requires neither. All that leaves us is our single target dps which isn't even top tier with positional.

    I also think you missed the point of the thread. Nobody is crying about how bad they are, but how obsolete the burg class is for PvE. A great player behind the burg may indeed make it worth taking along on content, but put that same great player behind another class and I guarentee the group would prefer him/her there.

  25. #25
    Burg is doing enough dps as far as I can tell.
    The following parse is done with "only" 70K masteries unbuffed with still 120+ empowerment scrolls missing on my LIs on a training dummy in galtrev.



    increasing damage even further would be rather gamebreaking in my opinion and I'm sure there are plenty of people who get way higher numbers than this.
    But I can see how "best single target dps" might be true.

    I think red and blue line are in a very nice spot. Yellow line still seems a bit lacking (although it still has use). I would like to see the incoming crit chance on cd to make a return and maybe give clever retort some kind of buff or new purpose to make it worth using.

 

 
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