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  1. #101
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Nosdracir View Post
    The simple fact is: the only way to determine if a given dwarf is male or female is to turn the dwarf upside down. Unfortunately, due to the fact that they carry very sharp axes and take umbrage at least three times a day, this is not a viable option.


    Female Dwarves look like male Dwarves, both because they have beards and because they dress like them (especially when they travel)... but they have lady parts.

    YAY! We done here?

  2. #102

    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by GV-Tanith View Post
    Hmm...given what we've covered in this discussion, I wonder how many women play as dwarves? I myself have never created a dwarf, but that's because of the running animation, not the beards.

    I suppose no one knows except Turbine, and like the dwarves, they're not talking.

    My wife, redwoodtreesprite created a dwarf just to go through the opening, but she didn't like the way they ran. Also, though I'm a big LOTR fan, I think that Tollers got it wrong with no obviously female dwarves.

    Aside from lore, I believe he was operating off of the lack of obviously female dwarves in the Poetic Edda. Of course, he not only got the names of all the dwarves in the Hobbit from that list, Gandalf is a dwarf there as well!

    Still, if LOTRO can have rune keepers, they should be able to have slightly more discernable female dwarves. Having male appearing dwarves ask you if their beards would look good in braids is a bit too much, as are dwarves running around in dresses!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darej View Post
    uh?

    *tries to figure out what this has to do with female dorf thread.*

    It fits in the context of lore breaking for valid in game reasons. I brought up lore keepers too.

    Many female players, my wife included, would not object to playing dwarves but they'd prefer they look a little more obviously feminine, with smaller braided beards, bosoms and voices to match.

    I've often thought that dwarvish battle cries sounded phonetically Hebrew, and Dwarf (Middle-Earth) wiki claims that Tolkien used merged both Norse dwarf folktales and medieval Christian folktales of Jews to create the dwarves of the Hobbit, which influenced the Lord of the Rings. The source cited is the unpublished drafts of the Hobbit with commentary, published as "The History of the Hobbit"


    I have to get "The History of the Hobbit", to answer all my questions regarding Tolkiens idea of dwarves! Now, if only Turbine would animate them better...

    So, Tolkien was not bound to his original ideas of dwarves in the Silmarillion. I'm not sure it would be a lore breaker if Turbine were not bound either.
    Last edited by somervillechangeling; Aug 29 2010 at 11:20 PM.

  3. #103
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    thats all well and good..but you keep forgetting one fact.

    bringing up RK's has nothing to do with this issue.

    you all need to understand...Turbine answers to SZC who own the IP.

    just because SZC said ok to RK's does not mean they will say ok to female dorfs.

    SZC will allow them to bend things in some places...and have free reign in others...and in some its by the book.

    i believe having gender neutral dorfs is right up there with no open world pvp.

    SZC absolutely will never allow it to happen.


  4. #104
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by somervillechangeling View Post
    Also, though I'm a big LOTR fan, I think that Tollers got it wrong with no obviously female dwarves.

    Aside from lore, I believe he was operating off of the lack of obviously female dwarves in the Poetic Edda.
    Hmm, well I don't think we can really call that "aside from lore". That is the lore, and much of the reason I believe it has resonance is that Tolkien borrowed from legends that many of us still dimly recognize. In fact, it was often his overt aim that the legendarium be enjoyed as a deeper, fictional context behind these mythologies.

    The point being, ol' Tollers is telling you you've got it backwards: the lack of (visible) female Dwarves in Middle-earth - explains - their absence from the Edda.

    I've often thought that dwarvish battle cries sounded phonetically Hebrew, and Dwarf (Middle-Earth) wiki claims that Tolkien used merged both Norse dwarf folktales and medieval Christian folktales of Jews to create the dwarves of the Hobbit, which influenced the Lord of the Rings. The source cited is the unpublished drafts of the Hobbit with commentary, published as "The History of the Hobbit"
    I'm reading this now--great book. As far as the Dwarves - Jews connection, it's true, though The History of the Hobbit is what I'd call a secondary source on the matter. (As far as I can tell so far, that is, though my guess is that I'm well past the sections your wiki is referencing.)


    Quote Originally Posted by somervillechangeling View Post

    So, Tolkien was not bound to his original ideas of dwarves in the Silmarillion. I'm not sure it would be a lore breaker if Turbine were not bound either.
    I may not be following you correctly, but is this a fair distillation: Tolkien's ideas about Dwarves evolved in many ways before Lord of the Rings, so it might not be lore breaking if this Lord of the Rings game changes Dwarves in a completely unrelated way?

    If so, it seems pretty clear cut to me that that's the very definition of a "lore breaker", if it's to have any meaning at all.

    Now, as to whether and how much this particular lore break would matter... It doesn't matter to me, as even though I'm - very slightly - put off by the idea of more than a few obviously female dwarves gallavanting about my server, I'd get over it. And I doubt many players would actually take advantage of the option. But then again, now we're back to the question of whether it's worth Turbine's energy. /shrug
    Last edited by BIGeyedBUG; Aug 30 2010 at 01:42 AM.

  5. #105
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    The simplest logical answer is always right.

    Logically dwarf society is very chauvanistic and as such the females were never allowed to leave the home as they were too busy with housework (sinks had a tendency to get blocked drains because of all that dwarf hair and had to be constantly unblocked).

    Personally, it makes total sense that dwarves had both female and male naughty bits. They were very likely hermaphrodites because they were not created by the same god who created the other races. Therefore it is highly likely they procreated differently as fundamentally were designed differently to the other races. Aule, their god was a glorified blacksmith and not the most qualified to create biological races. Its like asking a Soviet Russian to create a Ferrari.

  6. #106
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by guguzza71 View Post
    Personally, it makes total sense that dwarves had both female and male naughty bits. They were very likely hermaphrodites because they were not created by the same god who created the other races. Therefore it is highly likely they procreated differently as fundamentally were designed differently to the other races.
    Hermaphrodwarves!

    But seriously, there's a specific reason why Tolkien weaves the "joke" about Dwarves not reproducing like everyone else and instead growing out of the earth or popping out of rocks into this epic - the two Dwarves that all of Tolkien's Dwarves are based on are Dvalinn and Durin, who are actual Dwarves from Norse mythology. They spring out of a rock and accomplish such feats as crafting the mighty sword "Tyrfing", which is partly the basis for the Lord of the Rings sword "Narsil". Again, Dvalinn and Durin are not unique creations. They are pulled directly from Norse myths, and in those myths they appear out of stones, which is why Tolkien wrote that misconception into his world of Middle-earth.

    The Legend of Tyrfing (as it applies to the Hervararkviða).

  7. #107
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by guguzza71 View Post
    The simplest logical answer is always right.

    Personally, it makes total sense that dwarves had both female and male naughty bits.

    They were very likely hermaphrodites because they were not created by the same god who created the other races. Therefore it is highly likely they procreated differently as fundamentally were designed differently to the other races. Aule, their god was a glorified blacksmith and not the most qualified to create biological races.

    That is an understandable point of view from a "Human" perspective, as nearly 2% of all humans are born with some degree of physical intersexing... which today is typically changed at birth and rarely noticed. However, as a medical professional who sees the anatomy of thousands of patients of both sexes, this condition is surprisingly common in the older generations which did not have those surgical techniques available. You would be surprised how much care is taken in names, documentation, and appearance. There is a lot of dignity surrounding the issue and as most people never come into contact with it, have no idea.

    True hermaphrodism (both functioning ovary and teste tissue) is extremely rare.


    But Dwarves are not human. They were sculpted from the Earth by Aule. We can only guess how they reproduce.

    It is just as likely that males and females look virtually identical in "every respect", and procreate through their... um... dorsal nether region... or even a cloaca.

    There is no way to know, except to strip the pants from every Dwarf you meet until you figure it out... or don't figure it out.



    So the question is not 'are they sexually identical or intersexed', nor is it 'how do they reproduce'; instead, as we know they do not shave, the question is do they braid or not?
    Last edited by L_Loomis; Aug 30 2010 at 07:35 PM. Reason: more humor

  8. #108
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    This post from the other thread is an EXCELLENT reply, in which he states that Aule created them in the image of himself - externally sexless... that Dwarfs are externally neither male nor female in terms of sexual gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by lafeeverte

    After Ilúvatar created his children (Elves and Men) but before those races awoke on Arda, Aulë the Smith was so enamoured by these creations and so eager for a race of beings to love and teach that he created the Dwarves, on his own, without permission. Because only Ilúvatar has the power the Create, rather than merely make, the Dwarves would have been merely automatons controlled by Aulë. Ilúvatar chastised Aulë who defended his actions by saying that when a child plays at his father's work, it is not in mockery but in adulation. Nonetheless, with great sadness, he was prepared to destroy the Dwarves he had created. Ilúvatar therefore had mercy upon the Dwarves, adopted them as his own, and breathed true life into their made forms.

    As Tolkien definitively stated, Dwarf men and women look exactly alike and both have beards from childhood. This isn't just to be "cute" or make a weird joke. One possible lore-based explanation is that Aulë did not and could not know Ilúvatar's plan for his children (Elves and Men). He was not privy to Ilúvatar's vision. He had only the vaguest idea what Elves and Men would look and be like. He attempted to make his people, the Dwarves, in the image of what he guessed Ilúvatar's would be like, but clearly was not entirely successful. This is why the Dwarves are so physically different and "unlovely" to the eyes of Elves and Men.

    Remember too that the Valar are inherently ("inwardly") male or female but have no inherent gender in their forms, though they can clothe themselves in a male or female form. This perhaps speaks to Aulë's made children having their true gender inward and private only.

  9. #109
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by L_Loomis View Post
    That is an understandable point of view from a "Human" perspective, as nearly 2% of all humans are born with some degree of physical intersexing... which today is typically changed at birth and rarely noticed. However, as a medical professional who sees the anatomy of thousands of patients of both sexes, this condition is surprisingly common in the older generations which did not have those surgical techniques available. You would be surprised how much care is taken in names, documentation, and appearance. There is a lot of dignity surrounding the issue and as most people never come into contact with it, have no idea.

    True hermaphrodism (both functioning ovary and teste tissue) is extremely rare.


    But Dwarves are not human. They were sculpted from the Earth by Aule. We can only guess how they reproduce.

    It is just as likely that males and females look virtually identical in "every respect", and procreate through their... um... dorsal nether region... or even a cloaca.

    There is no way to know, except to strip the pants from every Dwarf you meet until you figure it out... or don't figure it out.



    So the question is not 'are they sexually identical or intersexed', nor is it 'how do they reproduce'; instead, as we know they do not shave, the question is do they braid or not?
    ya know...that may explain their obsession with the beards...maybe the beards hide something then involves procreation.....



  10. #110

    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgrin View Post
    Hermaphrodwarves!

    But seriously, there's a specific reason why Tolkien weaves the "joke" about Dwarves not reproducing like everyone else and instead growing out of the earth or popping out of rocks into this epic - the two Dwarves that all of Tolkien's Dwarves are based on are Dvalinn and Durin, who are actual Dwarves from Norse mythology. They spring out of a rock and accomplish such feats as crafting the mighty sword "Tyrfing", which is partly the basis for the Lord of the Rings sword "Narsil". Again, Dvalinn and Durin are not unique creations. They are pulled directly from Norse myths, and in those myths they appear out of stones, which is why Tolkien wrote that misconception into his world of Middle-earth.

    The Legend of Tyrfing (as it applies to the Hervararkviða).
    also, in the sil he makes the dwarves carved from stone as their origin story. So, perhaps that could also be a reason for the misconception.

  11. #111
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    for those that ask why we dont see female dwarves. there are female dwarves according to the books the females dont travel outside much unless there is a need to, in that regard they look talk and act like male dwarves(only catching one naked would any other race probally know they were female). in the works of Tolkien(ref to hobbit fellowship,towers,king orginal books their is one female dwarf of note mentioned whose name is DIS the sister of thoren oakenshield) . the female dwarven pop is only 1/3 of what the male is while toward the end and after the war they start to gain a little but not much. Many male dwarf dont marry due to greed,only intrested in crafts, many female dwarf dont marry due to not finding one they like, or just plain dont want a husband let alone kids, or cant have the male dwarf they want ect.
    so we do have female dwarves if you want to make a dwarf and play as a female go for it they do exist they did battle along side the males in wars and were just as strong. so there ya go. if need be i can scan the page i found the info on and post it.

  12. #112

    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    There are female dwarves and they do not have beards. Tolkien explicitly stated the female Dwarven population was around a third of the total population and when traveling they *hid their appearances* out of safety. What better way to hide an appearance than putting on a fake beard?

    To whoever posted the Iluvatar/Aule exchange from the Silmarillion a rather important fact is not picked up on. Iluvatar was the only one among the "gods" who could truly create and when he breathed life into the Dwarves they became capable of creation as all other Children of Iluvatar are capable of doing. They do in fact have genders with normal sexual reproduction and no, they are not bearded.

  13. #113
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Maihgread View Post
    There are female dwarves and they do not have beards. Tolkien explicitly stated the female Dwarven population was around a third of the total population and when traveling they *hid their appearances* out of safety. What better way to hide an appearance than putting on a fake beard?

    To whoever posted the Iluvatar/Aule exchange from the Silmarillion a rather important fact is not picked up on. Iluvatar was the only one among the "gods" who could truly create and when he breathed life into the Dwarves they became capable of creation as all other Children of Iluvatar are capable of doing. They do in fact have genders with normal sexual reproduction and no, they are not bearded.
    can ya back that up with some chapter and verse there, laddy?


  14. #114

    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Darej View Post
    can ya back that up with some chapter and verse there, laddy?

    See the Appendixes dealing with "Durin's folk" at the end of the Return of the King. The part about Aule/Iluvatar and the Dwarves come from the Silmarillion but I don't know page and chapter off hand.

  15. #115
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Dwarf women are indistinguishable from men “be it in feature or in gait or in voice.” That's Chapter 13, later Quenta Simarillion. In the same section Tolkien poses several possible creation myths for Dwarf women. He also "seems" to abandon most of them.

  16. Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Maihgread View Post
    There are female dwarves and they do not have beards. Tolkien explicitly stated the female Dwarven population was around a third of the total population and when traveling they *hid their appearances* out of safety. What better way to hide an appearance than putting on a fake beard?

    To whoever posted the Iluvatar/Aule exchange from the Silmarillion a rather important fact is not picked up on. Iluvatar was the only one among the "gods" who could truly create and when he breathed life into the Dwarves they became capable of creation as all other Children of Iluvatar are capable of doing. They do in fact have genders with normal sexual reproduction and no, they are not bearded.
    I don't know how many quotes where Tolkien specifically said all Dwarves, men woman and children, had beards we have to post before it sinks into people's thick skulls that Dwarven woman had beards. They had beards. There can be no discussion. They grew hair from their chins. It was beardlike. Beards, beards, beards. They had beards! We all have beards! The world will drown in the beards of Dwarven woman. Look over there! A bearded woman! She's not clean shaven! ARG!

  17. #117
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    I don't know how many quotes where Tolkien specifically said all Dwarves, men woman and children, had beards we have to post before it sinks into people's thick skulls that Dwarven woman had beards. They had beards. There can be no discussion. They grew hair from their chins. It was beardlike. Beards, beards, beards. They had beards! We all have beards! The world will drown in the beards of Dwarven woman. Look over there! A bearded woman! She's not clean shaven! ARG!
    soo...what you are saying...is that Tolkien intended for dwarven females to be like European women?



  18. #118

    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    I don't know how many quotes where Tolkien specifically said all Dwarves, men woman and children, had beards we have to post before it sinks into people's thick skulls that Dwarven woman had beards. They had beards. There can be no discussion. They grew hair from their chins. It was beardlike. Beards, beards, beards. They had beards! We all have beards! The world will drown in the beards of Dwarven woman. Look over there! A bearded woman! She's not clean shaven! ARG!
    When you have to insult other people to try and prove a point the only point you make is about yourself.

    And no, Dwarven women do not have beards. In the appendixes to the Return of the King Tolkien clearly states that Dwarven women disguised themselves as men for safety reasons. This is where this myth comes from other races that are no Dwarf women.

  19. #119
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Maihgread, you're saying that all of the other sources, including the text in Tolkien's writings are false?
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  20. #120

    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by auximenes77 View Post
    Maihgread, you're saying that all of the other sources, including the text in Tolkien's writings are false?
    I am saying that anyone who bothers to read the Appendixes in the Return of the King specifically under "Durin's Folk" will see exactly what I have said in what is now several posts. Dwarven women exist, they are roughly one third of the entire population and some of them do not marry which is why the Dwarves only slowly increase in numbers and specifically when they are traveling they disguise themselves to look as Dwarven men. This is precisely why non Dwarves may think there are no Dwarven women.

    Frankly speaking in my three decades of reading Tolkien the only time I ever saw any Tolkien fan believe in bearded Dwarven women was from that nonsense (among many nonsenses) in the movies. Every instance where Tolkien says they appear "the same" stems from what he wrote in the Appendix: it is a disguise intended to fool. And it appears it still works in another Age.

  21. #121
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Maihgread View Post
    And no, Dwarven women do not have beards. In the appendixes to the Return of the King Tolkien clearly states that Dwarven women disguised themselves as men for safety reasons. This is where this myth comes from other races that are no Dwarf women.
    As Rhyltran pointed out:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
    In appendix A of return of the king..

    Here's the exact full paragraph on page 411..

    It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the Dwarf men that in eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among men that there are no dwarf women, and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone.'
    "...in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the Dwarf men that in eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart."

    It says that "in voice and appearance" they are so alike the dwarf men that you can't tell them apart. The "in garb if they must go on a journey" only applies when they are out on a journey. If it was said that "when dwarf-women travel, they dress like the men, and as such no one could see the difference", then you would have a case. But that's not what it says.
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    ---


  22. #122

    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Macfeast View Post
    As Rhyltran pointed out:


    "...in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the Dwarf men that in eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart."

    It says that "in voice and appearance" they are so alike the dwarf men that you can't tell them apart. The "in garb if they must go on a journey" only applies when they are out on a journey. If it was said that "when dwarf-women travel, they dress like the men, and as such no one could see the difference", then you would have a case. But that's not what it says.
    Appendix A page 1053 in my one of my copies that continues from the paragraph quoted above:

    "It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings. For Dwarves take only one wife or husband each in their lives, and are jealous, as in all matters of their rights. The number of dwarf-men that marry is actually less than one-third. For not all the women take husbands: some desire none; some desire one that they cannot get, and so will have no other. As for the men, very many also do not desire marriage, being engrossed in their crafts."

    The women dress as men when they are traveling and their safety is considered paramount to the survival of their race. They dress "in garb" to appear as male Dwarves as a result. This includes wearing a false beard. "In voice and appearance" they are alike but that does not include beards which as Tolkien noted would be included as "garb".

  23. #123
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Maihgread View Post
    Appendix A page 1053 in my one of my copies that continues from the paragraph quoted above:

    "It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings. For Dwarves take only one wife or husband each in their lives, and are jealous, as in all matters of their rights. The number of dwarf-men that marry is actually less than one-third. For not all the women take husbands: some desire none; some desire one that they cannot get, and so will have no other. As for the men, very many also do not desire marriage, being engrossed in their crafts."

    The women dress as men when they are traveling and their safety is considered paramount to the survival of their race. They dress "in garb" to appear as male Dwarves as a result. This includes wearing a false beard. "In voice and appearance" they are alike but that does not include beards which as Tolkien noted would be included as "garb".
    I'm sorry, but you're gonna have to come up with more to prove they wore false beards. Right now, that only sounds like speculation from your point. Personally, I can't see how they were so alike the men "in voice and appearance" without actually having a beard (and as you said, the false beards are included in "garb", so that wouldn't apply to "appearance").

    Maybe we both just have different opinions of what that part really means. I guess we'll just have to leave it at that then.
    Last edited by Macfeast; Sep 29 2010 at 12:22 PM.
    Graindim Dwarrowfare, Lord of Baruk Khazad;
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    ---


  24. #124
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    i truly an honestly do not understand why some folks are so against the idea of beared females.

    it not as though that doesnt exist in real life.

    has noone ever seen or heard of bearded women at circus side-shows?

    Hirustism is a real condition affecting countless women to some degree.

    why is it so hard grok that idea that female dwarves suffer from a severe form of it?

    face it...dwarves are an androgynous looking race ( to outsiders) whose females suffer from severe hirustism.


  25. #125

    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Macfeast View Post
    I'm sorry, but you're gonna have to come up with more to prove they wore false beards. Right now, that only sounds like speculation from your point. Personally, I can't see how they were so alike the men "in voice and appearance" without actually having a beard (and as you said, the false beards are included in "garb", so that wouldn't apply to "appearance").

    Maybe we both just have different opinions of what that part really means. I guess we'll just have to leave it at that then.
    That may be the crux of it: I consider false beards part of the "garb" they use to hide themselves among other races because otherwise if they looked that similar then no disguise would be needed. But it really depends on what one sees as "appearance" versus "garb". I see it one way and you another.

 

 
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