Aside from lore, I believe he was operating off of the lack of obviously female dwarves in the Poetic Edda. Of course, he not only got the names of all the dwarves in the Hobbit from that list, Gandalf is a dwarf there as well!
Still, if LOTRO can have rune keepers, they should be able to have slightly more discernable female dwarves. Having male appearing dwarves ask you if their beards would look good in braids is a bit too much, as are dwarves running around in dresses!
Many female players, my wife included, would not object to playing dwarves but they'd prefer they look a little more obviously feminine, with smaller braided beards, bosoms and voices to match.
I've often thought that dwarvish battle cries sounded phonetically Hebrew, and Dwarf (Middle-Earth) wiki claims that Tolkien used merged both Norse dwarf folktales and medieval Christian folktales of Jews to create the dwarves of the Hobbit, which influenced the Lord of the Rings. The source cited is the unpublished drafts of the Hobbit with commentary, published as "The History of the Hobbit"
I have to get "The History of the Hobbit", to answer all my questions regarding Tolkiens idea of dwarves! Now, if only Turbine would animate them better...
So, Tolkien was not bound to his original ideas of dwarves in the Silmarillion. I'm not sure it would be a lore breaker if Turbine were not bound either.
Last edited by somervillechangeling; Aug 29 2010 at 11:20 PM.
thats all well and good..but you keep forgetting one fact.
bringing up RK's has nothing to do with this issue.
you all need to understand...Turbine answers to SZC who own the IP.
just because SZC said ok to RK's does not mean they will say ok to female dorfs.
SZC will allow them to bend things in some places...and have free reign in others...and in some its by the book.
i believe having gender neutral dorfs is right up there with no open world pvp.
SZC absolutely will never allow it to happen.
The point being, ol' Tollers is telling you you've got it backwards: the lack of (visible) female Dwarves in Middle-earth - explains - their absence from the Edda.
I'm reading this now--great book. As far as the Dwarves - Jews connection, it's true, though The History of the Hobbit is what I'd call a secondary source on the matter. (As far as I can tell so far, that is, though my guess is that I'm well past the sections your wiki is referencing.)I've often thought that dwarvish battle cries sounded phonetically Hebrew, and Dwarf (Middle-Earth) wiki claims that Tolkien used merged both Norse dwarf folktales and medieval Christian folktales of Jews to create the dwarves of the Hobbit, which influenced the Lord of the Rings. The source cited is the unpublished drafts of the Hobbit with commentary, published as "The History of the Hobbit"
If so, it seems pretty clear cut to me that that's the very definition of a "lore breaker", if it's to have any meaning at all.
Now, as to whether and how much this particular lore break would matter... It doesn't matter to me, as even though I'm - very slightly - put off by the idea of more than a few obviously female dwarves gallavanting about my server, I'd get over it. And I doubt many players would actually take advantage of the option. But then again, now we're back to the question of whether it's worth Turbine's energy. /shrug
Last edited by BIGeyedBUG; Aug 30 2010 at 01:42 AM.
The simplest logical answer is always right.
Logically dwarf society is very chauvanistic and as such the females were never allowed to leave the home as they were too busy with housework (sinks had a tendency to get blocked drains because of all that dwarf hair and had to be constantly unblocked).
Personally, it makes total sense that dwarves had both female and male naughty bits. They were very likely hermaphrodites because they were not created by the same god who created the other races. Therefore it is highly likely they procreated differently as fundamentally were designed differently to the other races. Aule, their god was a glorified blacksmith and not the most qualified to create biological races. Its like asking a Soviet Russian to create a Ferrari.
But seriously, there's a specific reason why Tolkien weaves the "joke" about Dwarves not reproducing like everyone else and instead growing out of the earth or popping out of rocks into this epic - the two Dwarves that all of Tolkien's Dwarves are based on are Dvalinn and Durin, who are actual Dwarves from Norse mythology. They spring out of a rock and accomplish such feats as crafting the mighty sword "Tyrfing", which is partly the basis for the Lord of the Rings sword "Narsil". Again, Dvalinn and Durin are not unique creations. They are pulled directly from Norse myths, and in those myths they appear out of stones, which is why Tolkien wrote that misconception into his world of Middle-earth.
The Legend of Tyrfing (as it applies to the Hervararkviða).
That is an understandable point of view from a "Human" perspective, as nearly 2% of all humans are born with some degree of physical intersexing... which today is typically changed at birth and rarely noticed. However, as a medical professional who sees the anatomy of thousands of patients of both sexes, this condition is surprisingly common in the older generations which did not have those surgical techniques available. You would be surprised how much care is taken in names, documentation, and appearance. There is a lot of dignity surrounding the issue and as most people never come into contact with it, have no idea.
True hermaphrodism (both functioning ovary and teste tissue) is extremely rare.
But Dwarves are not human. They were sculpted from the Earth by Aule. We can only guess how they reproduce.
It is just as likely that males and females look virtually identical in "every respect", and procreate through their... um... dorsal nether region... or even a cloaca.
There is no way to know, except to strip the pants from every Dwarf you meet until you figure it out... or don't figure it out.
So the question is not 'are they sexually identical or intersexed', nor is it 'how do they reproduce'; instead, as we know they do not shave, the question is do they braid or not?
Last edited by L_Loomis; Aug 30 2010 at 07:35 PM. Reason: more humor
This post from the other thread is an EXCELLENT reply, in which he states that Aule created them in the image of himself - externally sexless... that Dwarfs are externally neither male nor female in terms of sexual gender.
Originally Posted by lafeeverte
for those that ask why we dont see female dwarves. there are female dwarves according to the books the females dont travel outside much unless there is a need to, in that regard they look talk and act like male dwarves(only catching one naked would any other race probally know they were female). in the works of Tolkien(ref to hobbit fellowship,towers,king orginal books their is one female dwarf of note mentioned whose name is DIS the sister of thoren oakenshield) . the female dwarven pop is only 1/3 of what the male is while toward the end and after the war they start to gain a little but not much. Many male dwarf dont marry due to greed,only intrested in crafts, many female dwarf dont marry due to not finding one they like, or just plain dont want a husband let alone kids, or cant have the male dwarf they want ect.
so we do have female dwarves if you want to make a dwarf and play as a female go for it they do exist they did battle along side the males in wars and were just as strong. so there ya go. if need be i can scan the page i found the info on and post it.
There are female dwarves and they do not have beards. Tolkien explicitly stated the female Dwarven population was around a third of the total population and when traveling they *hid their appearances* out of safety. What better way to hide an appearance than putting on a fake beard?
To whoever posted the Iluvatar/Aule exchange from the Silmarillion a rather important fact is not picked up on. Iluvatar was the only one among the "gods" who could truly create and when he breathed life into the Dwarves they became capable of creation as all other Children of Iluvatar are capable of doing. They do in fact have genders with normal sexual reproduction and no, they are not bearded.
Dwarf women are indistinguishable from men “be it in feature or in gait or in voice.” That's Chapter 13, later Quenta Simarillion. In the same section Tolkien poses several possible creation myths for Dwarf women. He also "seems" to abandon most of them.
And no, Dwarven women do not have beards. In the appendixes to the Return of the King Tolkien clearly states that Dwarven women disguised themselves as men for safety reasons. This is where this myth comes from other races that are no Dwarf women.
Maihgread, you're saying that all of the other sources, including the text in Tolkien's writings are false?
Meneldor: Cuthwald, Laegerehd, Ori, Amyryllis, Cirinell
Brandywine: Dorolin, Ceolford
*Founding member of the Firebrands of Caruja*
I miss my old Alpha2 registry number...
(Tip-toe through the Mewlips)
Frankly speaking in my three decades of reading Tolkien the only time I ever saw any Tolkien fan believe in bearded Dwarven women was from that nonsense (among many nonsenses) in the movies. Every instance where Tolkien says they appear "the same" stems from what he wrote in the Appendix: it is a disguise intended to fool. And it appears it still works in another Age.
It says that "in voice and appearance" they are so alike the dwarf men that you can't tell them apart. The "in garb if they must go on a journey" only applies when they are out on a journey. If it was said that "when dwarf-women travel, they dress like the men, and as such no one could see the difference", then you would have a case. But that's not what it says.
"It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings. For Dwarves take only one wife or husband each in their lives, and are jealous, as in all matters of their rights. The number of dwarf-men that marry is actually less than one-third. For not all the women take husbands: some desire none; some desire one that they cannot get, and so will have no other. As for the men, very many also do not desire marriage, being engrossed in their crafts."
The women dress as men when they are traveling and their safety is considered paramount to the survival of their race. They dress "in garb" to appear as male Dwarves as a result. This includes wearing a false beard. "In voice and appearance" they are alike but that does not include beards which as Tolkien noted would be included as "garb".
Maybe we both just have different opinions of what that part really means. I guess we'll just have to leave it at that then.
Last edited by Macfeast; Sep 29 2010 at 12:22 PM.
i truly an honestly do not understand why some folks are so against the idea of beared females.
it not as though that doesnt exist in real life.
has noone ever seen or heard of bearded women at circus side-shows?
Hirustism is a real condition affecting countless women to some degree.
why is it so hard grok that idea that female dwarves suffer from a severe form of it?
face it...dwarves are an androgynous looking race ( to outsiders) whose females suffer from severe hirustism.
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