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  1. #76
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    The rumors are, female dwarves can grow beards with the best of the male dwarves. Some might even get jealous.
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  2. #77
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
    In appendix A of return of the king..

    Here's the exact full paragraph on page 411..

    It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the Dwarf men that in eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among men that there are no dwarf women, and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone.'

    The exact paragraph word for word.
    I believe "People see what they want to see" is what is said here. Not female Dwarves have beards.

    As in Men would only see two male Dwarves in this picture;


    Where as a Dwarve would know which is male and which is female.
    Last edited by Toranoga; Aug 27 2010 at 09:11 AM.
    ****Bogarts! We hates Bogarts!****

  3. #78
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Toranoga View Post
    I believe "People see what they want to see" is what is said here. Not female Dwarves have beards.

    As in Men would only see two male Dwarves in this picture;


    Where as a Dwarve would know which is male and which is female.
    LOL...wow...really?

    you are using a cartoon based on The Hobbit to refute Tolkien's own words.

    i see 2 dorfs...one with beard sticking out...one with beard tucked in and under to protect it from the weather.


    unbelievable

    Last edited by Darej; Aug 27 2010 at 09:40 AM.

  4. #79
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Whether or not female Dwarves have beards, no matter how similar they looks to males from an outsider's point of view, there should be two different models. The differences could be subtle, different bone structure for females, different styles of beards. But only having one model for Dwarves... Turbine is either saying that female Dwarves aren't allowed out of the mountain or they're being just plain lazy. That's my two coppers.
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  5. #80
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Fionnuala View Post
    Whether or not female Dwarves have beards, no matter how similar they looks to males from an outsider's point of view, there should be two different models. The differences could be subtle, different bone structure for females, different styles of beards. But only having one model for Dwarves... Turbine is either saying that female Dwarves aren't allowed out of the mountain or they're being just plain lazy. That's my two coppers.
    I would say more, they had better things to do with their time than make a race's gender differences that was not supported by the lore. The best aregument they had outside lore is that female dwarves where the least played race/gender combination.

    To make an entire set of models, and additional image for every worn object, and additional animation for every player animation for a class that is not supported by lore and the least desired by players was a wise development move.

    My daughter plays a "female" dwarf, has no problem with people assuming she is male. Her friends know she is a she. As for NPC addressing her as a he, "the non-dwarves cannot tell the difference, and the dwarves do not want any to overhear them to know her true gender, most lady dwarves rather keep that private."
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  6. #81
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Bah!

    We Khazad know who is who , and that's all that matters.
    Why are all those other 'races' so curious, eh? We like it this way, keep it secret, keep it safe!

    Otherwise ya be getting all these weird unnatural combinations like Hobbits, and half-elves,..and orcs!
    Is that what ye all are after? Our womens?!






    side note: I totally agree and can appreciate the decision due to the sheer amount of another whole set of models/animations. But how about just some new Face maps? And a few more 'feminine' beards. We can do the rest with dresses

  7. #82
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    To a non-Dwarf there is no way to distinguish between a male and a female. They are both bearded. It is also a known fact just from the appendix in the LotR that what few female Dwarves that go out and about dress exactly as the males of their kind. An actual female Dwarf would not be out of one of the Dwarven Homes except in dire need and would do everything in their power to make sure that they were indestinguishable from their male bretheren.

    As for those of you stating that having ton's of Hobbits is just as lore-breaking. I as a player totally ignore the majority of most players in-game. I use suspension of belief when I see the numbers of Dwarves, Hobbits, Elves and MEN running all over the place in areas that should not be seeing large numbers of ANY people at all. Anytime my character is in The Shire I just imagine that my character is the only non-Hobbit running around. When I am in Lothlorien I am the only only non-Elvish person in the area.
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  8. #83
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    To me this comes down to a handful of players who don't want to accept that all female dwarves in LOTRO have beards, regardless of the lore or Turbine's position. Perhaps they want to play beardless female dwarves. I want to play a bearded elf (supported by lore; see Cirdan’s description in RotK), but I'm not given that opportunity. I'm not, however, going to rant about it and pretend like others are wrong and I am right, or that Turbine was just lazy for not including bearded elves.
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  9. #84
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Toranoga View Post
    I believe "People see what they want to see" is what is said here. Not female Dwarves have beards.

    As in Men would only see two male Dwarves in this picture;


    Where as a Dwarve would know which is male and which is female.
    You are incorrect. It doesn't state men. It said "Peoples." this includes both Elven and Hobbit. Elves are the wisest of all races and even they wouldn't be able to discern genders if they were right in front of them despite their age, experience, and wisdom? Fion, if they had subtle differences then other races would still, if clever and wise enough, pick up on these traits to discern gender but it clearly states that no one can tell if a dwarf is female or male save dwarves themselves. So subtle differences= Can still tell. Especially if it's bone structure. Like in garb and appearance? They're not going to have feminine traits or decorations. As much as people don't want to accept it.. Female Dwarves are the same as male. The appendix makes it very clear.
    Last edited by Rhyltran; Aug 27 2010 at 05:26 PM.
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  10. #85
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Fionnuala View Post
    Turbine is either saying that female Dwarves aren't allowed out of the mountain or they're being just plain lazy.
    Or maybe it's the males who aren't allowed out of the mountain and all Dwarves in LoTRO are female. The dwarf model is gender neutral (ie no gender specified) so how would you tell?

  11. #86
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by ArahadEketta View Post
    To a non-Dwarf there is no way to distinguish between a male and a female.
    Reading this sentiment (for the billionth time) gave me a brilliant idea: Let's make it so dwarves can pick their gender at character creation and emotes, heritage titles (Son of <Name>, Daughter of <Name>) combat text, etc. shows up as gender-specific to dwarves only. To non-dwarves they exclusively use male pronouns. That way dwarves are liberated from ***-backwards grammar and non-dwarves are none the wiser as to which gender they're actually speaking to.

    Everyone (except the I-want-a-pretty-dwarf-with-no-beard people) wins.
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  12. #87
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
    Fion, if they had subtle differences then other races would still, if clever and wise enough, pick up on these traits to discern gender but it clearly states that no one can tell if a dwarf is female or male save dwarves themselves. So subtle differences= Can still tell. Especially if it's bone structure. Like in garb and appearance? They're not going to have feminine traits or decorations. As much as people don't want to accept it.. Female Dwarves are the same as male. The appendix makes it very clear.
    No, Female Dwarves are not "the same" as male. The appendix does not say that at all. It merely says that they are "so like". But then these are different species we're talking about. Just because another race doesn't know they differences between male and female Dwarves doesn't mean they don't exist.

    I'm not saying make a "feminine" model for female Dwarves. I said nothing about feminine traits or decorations. I'm saying make a different model. Make them both very similar, but different. For the love of Eru, anything to afford the female Dwarf players out there other options for showing their gender than wearing dresses.
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  13. #88

    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Fionnuala, if it explicitly states that any non-dwarf is unable to tell the difference between male and female dwarves...what would the ability to enter differences do? It would create a way to differentiate male from female from races not-dwarf.

    Which clearly defeats the purpose of staying true to the Lore.

    I like the idea of being able to change your title to reflect your chosen preference of male/female for RP purposes...but indicating that there should actually be a way to 'make' a female dwarf seems silly and nit-picky. There is a reason that there is NO gender determination when making a dwarf.
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  14. #89
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    I have talked with Berephon about this and it is in the lore that when females are encountered it's in the guise of a male and why it is hard to tell them apart. If the higher ups at Turbine weren't firm on the matter there could have been the possibility of a beardless female option so that is why there is no option for that. I don't agree with it and have said so in my previous posts in other topics and even to Berephon himself.

    That is all I am saying and you can jump on me for it I just don't care.

  15. #90

    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Rhoric - I don't intend to 'jump' on anyone. There are plenty of things in the world to get uptight about, but a scholarly discussion is not one of them. However, I think there is much more evidence in favor of female dwarves being indistinguishable from males besides clothing.

    This is quoted from the Wiki entry on Dwarves (Tolkien)
    In The Lord of the Rings Tolkien writes that they breed slowly, for no more than a third of them are female, and not all marry; also, female Dwarves look and sound (and dress, if journeying — which is rare) so alike to Dwarf-males that other folk cannot distinguish them, and thus others wrongly believe Dwarves grow out of stone. Tolkien names only one female, Dís. In The War of the Jewels Tolkien says both males and females have beards.[18]

    Here is the quote : From "The Later Quenta Silmarillion" in HOME XI:

    §5 (...)For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls. It is said, also, that their womenkind are few, and that save their kings and chieftains few Dwarves ever wed; wherefore their race multiplied slowly and now is dwindling.

    (here is a good history of the Later Quenta Silmarillion) http://www.tolkien-online.com/silmarillion.html

    And here is a wonderfully cohesive answer on the question as well : http://stason.org/TULARC/education-b...s-Tolkien.html

    I quote the salient paragraphs here :
    It seems that (male) Dwarves in Middle-earth all have beards: among
    other evidence, as Bilbo sets out on his adventure in _The Hobbit_, we
    read that "His only comfort was that he couldn't be mistaken for a
    dwarf, as he had no beard." Given that, the quote above must imply
    that Dwarf women were bearded as well.

    However, we do not need to rely on such implications: Tolkien
    answered this question explicitly in other texts. In _The War of the
    Jewels_ ("The Later _Quenta Silmarillion_: Of the Naugrim and the
    Edain", written ~1951), Tolkien wrote that

    no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were
    shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame...
    For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male
    and female alike...

    In _The Peoples of Middle-earth_, Christopher Tolkien says that a
    similar statement was present in an earlier draft of Appendix A as
    well. As these statements are entirely in agreement with the canonical
    evidence cited above, the conclusion that Dwarf women had beards seems
    inescapable.

    In conclusion, as the only expert on Tolkien is Tolkien, we have to go by what he has written on the subject. While his opinions MAY have changed, he never wrote so...and therefore saying his mind was altered to this thinking is pure conjecture. By his words we see that 1. There are no unbearded males (as this was a mark of shame) 2. Female Dwarves are 'indistinguishable' from males by non-dwarves (this meaning more than a change of clothing, as it states '...in FEATURE, gait, or voice') Therefore by this alone, female Dwarves are bearded. But add to that a direct quote that 3. Female as well as male have beards (as stated in the later quenta Silmarillion.)

    I'm not sure who Berephon is, but while it is true that females dress as males when they go out - that is clearly NOT the only reason they resemble males.
    Last edited by darkannex; Aug 27 2010 at 11:59 PM.
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  16. #91
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    The simple fact is: the only way to determine if a given dwarf is male or female is to turn the dwarf upside down. Unfortunately, due to the fact that they carry very sharp axes and take umbrage at least three times a day, this is not a viable option.
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  17. #92
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    My big problem with this whole thing is that Lore is being selectivly adheared to or broken.
    It's OK to break lore in some area's and not OK to break lore in other area's.
    Either stick to the lore or don't.

  18. Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dinara View Post
    My big problem with this whole thing is that Lore is being selectivly adheared to or broken.
    It's OK to break lore in some area's and not OK to break lore in other area's.
    Either stick to the lore or don't.
    No one would like a game where the lore was kept to 100%. For instance, it would take a month or two just to ride to Moria. It's a game and concessions have to be made. It's only gratuitous concessions *cough*rune keeper*cough* that should never make it into LOTRO.
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  19. #94
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    What ?!!
    No Female Dwarves ??!!
    OMG!!!

    Ive been lied to.
    and all this time Ive thought she had the prettiest beard of all the dwarves..

    O.o

  20. #95
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    No one would like a game where the lore was kept to 100%. For instance, it would take a month or two just to ride to Moria. It's a game and concessions have to be made. It's only gratuitous concessions *cough*rune keeper*cough* that should never make it into LOTRO.
    not only that...but the IP owners have the final say on what lore has to be adhered to and what can be bent.

    so regardless of what "proof" the beardless dorf party produces i betcha SZC put their foot down at the beginning and said gender neutral.



  21. #96
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Fionnuala View Post
    For the love of Eru, anything to afford the female Dwarf players out there other options for showing their gender than wearing dresses.
    But a female dwarf would NOT show her gender -- that is the whole point--

    As for the comment about turning them upside down, I know a female dwarf that would make hash out of anyone who tried -- NO ONE peaks under her armour!!!-- she carries a VERY large axe and knows how to use it!
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  22. #97
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    No one would like a game where the lore was kept to 100%. For instance, it would take a month or two just to ride to Moria. It's a game and concessions have to be made.
    I disagree with that sentiment in general, but the "it would take forever to get anywhere" argument is particularly poor. Proper scaling and time compression would easily make the distances accurate to the lore without making the game unplayable.

    For example: It took several days for the Fellowship to cross the Midgewater Marshes. However, they were trying to move stealthily and had four unused-to-travel hobbits along, and also had to stop for sleep (if not meals as well). If one in-game day lasted one hour, a group walking under [skill]Share the Fun[/skill] and stopping for 15 minutes out of every hour would probably take a comparable amount of game time.
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  23. #98
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dinara View Post
    My big problem with this whole thing is that Lore is being selectivly adheared to or broken.
    It's OK to break lore in some area's and not OK to break lore in other area's.
    Either stick to the lore or don't.
    I think that leads either to a game that is not recognizable as Middle-earth, or a game that is not recognizable as a game.

    I don't agree with Turbine on all their choices--a few of them I find downright mindboggling---but I'm extremely glad they're selective about where they follow the lore and how closely.
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  24. #99
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Armedeus View Post
    I dont play a runekeeper and IMHO they are a bit overpowered from what Ive seen.
    Its all good tho, I wont cry about it.

    It's hard to say they dont fit in or that they break the LORE just because there is no great mention of them in the writtings.
    There is very little mention of many things that JRR included in his writtings.

    In saying there were many practicers of magic both good and bad he sorta leaves the
    situation open to say there were those whom practiced the magics of the runes.

    It's been said LoreMasters dont fit in but thats not quite true.
    re the mention of Daeron, the minstrel, chief LoreMaster of
    the kingdom of Thingol. Being titled CHIEF LoreMaster, its easy to conclude there were several
    or even hundreds of LoreMasters.

    Reading of "The Silmarillion" will reveal pockets for many entities.
    uh?

    *tries to figure out what this has to do with female dorf thread.*


  25. #100
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    All directions at once without warning.
    Posts
    1,744

    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Wrong thread/topic so I removed it.
    Carry on :-)

 

 
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