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  1. #26
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Toranoga View Post
    Tolkien never said female dwarves have beards. It is conjuncture on others part.
    There was a recent discussion in another thread about this, but...I can't possibly see how dwarf-women would be indistinguishable from the men, if they were beardless.

    EDIT: I stand corrected, he did say that. Gonna have to read the Silmarillion again, was a long time since last time.
    Last edited by Macfeast; Aug 26 2010 at 12:30 PM.

  2. #27
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    I have several dwarf characters (and IRL I am most assuredly a woman). Sallyanne, my guardian, would NEVER be caught dead in a silly dress.. how can a person possibly engage in combat dressed like that!! As a dwarf-lass who just HAD to go adventuring (to the serious dismay and disapproval of her parents) she took on the name of the family cow because it made her laugh.

    Since she began associating with Linwe, Enelya and Linarwen, she discovered elven hair care products -- and is excessively proud of her beard and hair now.


    I have several other dwarfs whose gender even I am not entirely sure of!

  3. #28

    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Toranoga View Post
    Tolkien never said female dwarves have beards. It is conjuncture on others part.
    Actually, he did explicitly state that Dwarf women do have beards. The reference is in The War of the Jewels ("The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Naugrim and the Edain", written ~1951). Tolkien wrote that:

    "no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame... For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike..."

  4. #29
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Toranoga View Post
    ...snip ..Tolkien never said female dwarves have beards. It is conjuncture on others part.

    ..snip...
    Incorrect. Tolkien DID explicitly write:

    "For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike"

    in The War of the Jewels ("The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Naugrim and the Edain"). Granted, that's not an "appendix" and such, but it IS Tolkien himself saying that.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/06205000000094544/01008/signature.png]Nirsul[/charsig]

  5. Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Toranoga View Post
    Personally I've never bought into the all female dwarves have beards theory.
    To me, it's like saying all Amish have beards.
    Wrong. From "War of the Jewels":

    no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were
    shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame...
    For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male
    and female alike...
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0620500000009263b/01003/signature.png]Arasilion[/charsig]

  6. Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by nirsul View Post
    Incorrect. Tolkien DID explicitly write:

    "For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike"

    in The War of the Jewels ("The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Naugrim and the Edain"). Granted, that's not an "appendix" and such, but it IS Tolkien himself saying that.
    Wow, talk about a Ninja reply.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0620500000009263b/01003/signature.png]Arasilion[/charsig]

  7. #32
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Beschutzer View Post


    OH,. they are out there,...
    LOL. These Pat pics gave me a good belly laugh. Many thanks!

    I enjoy RPing my female dwarf (and I'm a guy). I love the reactions of people if they've read her bio.
    .

    #6 Chestnut Street, Rosswold, Bree-land Homestead
    Come visit!

  8. #33
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonsy View Post
    What?? There are no female dwarves??

    I'll have to tell Elsbetha...perhaps she needs to check her "parts".
    Perhaps dwarfs don't have "parts" like typical humanoids. Growing underground can cause abnormalities!
    "Shepherds of the Forest" -- RIP

  9. #34
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by lafeeverte View Post
    Actually, he did explicitly state that Dwarf women do have beards. The reference is in The War of the Jewels ("The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Naugrim and the Edain", written ~1951). Tolkien wrote that:

    "no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame... For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike..."
    Christopher Tolkien wrote...
    ****Bogarts! We hates Bogarts!****

  10. Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Toranoga View Post
    Christopher Tolkien wrote...
    It's okay to be wrong. You don't have to keep coming up with contrived excuses. All Christopher did was compile his father's papers into a book. Unless you have proof that Christopher took a pen and wrote this bit in, you don't have a right to say that.

    What is it about female Dwarves that make people so obstinate? It's just a beard.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0620500000009263b/01003/signature.png]Arasilion[/charsig]

  11. #36
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    It's okay to be wrong. You don't have to keep coming up with contrived excuses. All Christopher did was compile his father's papers into a book. Unless you have proof that Christopher took a pen and wrote this bit in, you don't have a right to say that.

    What is it about female Dwarves that make people so obstinate? It's just a beard.
    I'm sorry, I was only stating my opinion on the issue. Nothing else.

    But the fact remains, J.R.R. Tolkien did not have those statements published. Which I think is key.
    ****Bogarts! We hates Bogarts!****

  12. #37
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Published or not, he wrote it. He may have been saving it for some future book or some other thing he planned to publish. Either way, it is how he viewed the dwarves or he wouldn't have written it down. As such, it's just as legitimate as if he was the one who published it.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000310eff/01007/signature.png]Avanthos[/charsig]
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  13. #38

    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    The interesting thing about Tolkien is that he was constantly changing his mind about things he'd written, tweaking and editing previous characters, places, words, and events. His work was very organic, always subject to change. There are dozens of examples of this in his notes.

    If he'd lived longer and had continued his world, it would have been interesting to see how much more things would have changed. Therefore, when I read what he actually published in his lifetime and what was published later from his notes, I can be fairly sure that some of what was in those notes likely would have changed before the final draft was completed. Hard to say, then, how different many of these details would have looked had he actually published the works himself.

  14. #39
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    I understand completely that you 'want' female dwarves to look different and therefore you aren't going to accept that Tolkien stated that they look the same as male dwarves to the eyes of non dwarves. I get it.

    The reason I don't have a dwarf is simply because I am uncomfortable with the look for myself on a female character. That being said, its entirely appropriate for the game based on Tolkiens books.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a00000008a315/01004/signature.png]Kyarra[/charsig]

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  15. #40
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    The Lore and the Prophets must be obeyed!!!

    BEARDS FOR YOU!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a0000002a1600/signature.png]Awesomely[/charsig][U][SIZE=2][URL="http://tinyurl.com/bptwyea"][COLOR=#0000ff]
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  16. #41
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Toranoga View Post
    But the fact remains, J.R.R. Tolkien did not have those statements published. Which I think is key.
    His intent in those writings was clear, and consistent with what's in his published works. What he did have published said quite explicitly that male and female dwarves cannot be told apart by non-dwarves, and it's quite clear from dozens of references that dwarves are very proud of (bordering on obsessed with) their beards. Not a single dwarf was described without a beard, and beard-talk absolutely infuses their phrasing. Even their names.

    The great preponderance of the evidence says that Tolkien's female dwarves were bearded. Also, he didn't say that some females were indistinguishable from males to outsiders, he said simply that outsiders could not tell male and female dwarves apart - not in looks, in dress, or even in voice. It's a very broad statement, and the occasional male-looking female human has nothing to do with anything.

    This is sounding like the argument people try to make for giving us eagle mounts. The heavy weight of the evidence is against that, but no, Tolkien never said that it was impossible that any eagle that ever lived would consent to play the role of Middle-earth taxi service to adventurers. We aren't getting eagle mounts either, though.

    Khafar
    Last edited by Khafar; Aug 26 2010 at 02:43 PM.

  17. #42
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    What is it about female Dwarves that make people so obstinate? It's just a beard.
    For me it's the grammatical stupidity that having a non-specified gender creates. I'm A-OK with female dwarves using the exact same models as the males; I'm not OK with "<Name> chokes on their pipe smoke.". Hell, I'd be OK with reverting to the all-dwarves-are-male that the game launched with. Anything would have been a better solution than the whole gender-neutral thing.

    Note: Yes, I always use that specific emote to make my argument. It's the only one I can remember offhand. I'm positive there are more situations where it comes up, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    This is sounding like the argument people try to make for giving us eagle mounts. ... We aren't getting [them] either, though.
    We hope we're not getting eagle mounts. I personally wouldn't put any money on it not happening.
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  18. #43
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    His intent in those writings was clear, and consistent with what's in his published works. What he did have published said quite explicitly that male and female dwarves cannot be told apart by non-dwarves, and it's quite clear from dozens of references that dwarves are very proud of (bordering on obsessed with) their beards. Not a single dwarf was described without a beard, and beard-talk absolutely infuses their phrasing. Even their names.

    The great preponderance of the evidence says that Tolkien's female dwarves were bearded. Also, he didn't say that some females were indistinguishable from males to outsiders, he said simply that outsiders could not tell male and female dwarves apart - not in looks, in dress, or even in voice. It's a very broad statement, and the occasional male-looking female human has nothing to do with anything.
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=conjecture

    I'm not trying to argue this, I was only stating my opinion. Which is; what J.R.R. meant by his statements, was that non-dwarves don't bother to look/notice whether a dwarve is female or male. Not that all female dwarves have beards. Which is where your side seems to take it. Either way is conjecture as he never 'published' a statement one way or the other.


    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    This is sounding like the argument people try to make for giving us eagle mounts. The heavy weight of the evidence is against that, but no, Tolkien never said that it was impossible that any eagle that ever lived would consent to play the role of Middle-earth taxi service to adventurers. We aren't getting eagle mounts either, though.

    Khafar
    Now you've gone off the deep end.

    If any one is arguing for anything here, it would be for a playable female dwarf that looks female. I personally don't see anything wrong with this. I also, don't understand why anyone would when this game lets you play a Hobbit. Why be so 'hard core' about 'all dwarves look male and have beards' and then say it's fine for Hobbits to be common place outside of the Shire. I don't understand the double standard.

    I also think that taking the few comments he did make about dwarves to the point that you declare that all female dwarves have beards equal to taking his few comments about dwarves and magic to the point that dwarves never use magic and couldn't.

    Again, I'm not arguing for anything here, as I am fine with the game the way it is.
    ****Bogarts! We hates Bogarts!****

  19. #44

    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    in all of tolkien's writings, there is only mention of one female dwarf, thats reason enough not to have them playable

  20. #45
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by newwwwb View Post
    in all of tolkien's writings, there is only mention of one female dwarf, thats reason enough not to have them playable
    In The Lord of the Rings Tolkien writes that they (Dwarves) breed slowly, for no more than a third of them are female, and not all marry; also, female Dwarves look and sound (and dress, if journeying — which is rare) so alike to Dwarf-males that other folk cannot distinguish them, and thus others wrongly believe Dwarves grow out of stone. Tolkien names only one female, Dís.

    In The War of the Jewels Tolkien says both males and females have beards.

    Source - Tolkien, J. R. R. (1994), Christopher Tolkien, ed., The War of the Jewels, Boston: Houghton Mifflin, "Of the Naugrim and the Edain"
    Take from that what you will. It is clearly stated that 1/3 of Dwarves are female, and although he only names one, that is inconsequential. 1/3 of Dwarves are female and it is almost impossible to tell them apart from the males.

    Done and done.

    THE LORE HAS SPOKEN! ALL BOW TO THE LORE!
    Last edited by Wolfgrin; Aug 26 2010 at 04:10 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a0000001f16df/01008/signature.png]Bill[/charsig]

  21. Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Either way is conjecture as he never 'published' a statement one way or the other.
    Again, this is contrived. Tolkien doesn't have to publish something for us to know his mind. If we go by this excuse, we wouldn't know who or what Gandalf is, what race Sauron is, where the Earth came from, what is meant by asking for the Valar's blessings, who the heck Elbereth is, and I could really go on and on because all of this stuff was in The Silmarillion, unpublished in Tolkien's life time. As far as we can be certain about anything, Tolkien had female Dwarves bearded. That is that. There is no argument. There can be no argument.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0620500000009263b/01003/signature.png]Arasilion[/charsig]

  22. #47
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    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    Again, this is contrived. Tolkien doesn't have to publish something for us to know his mind. If we go by this excuse, we wouldn't know who or what Gandalf is, what race Sauron is, where the Earth came from, what is meant by asking for the Valar's blessings, who the heck Elbereth is, and I could really go on and on because all of this stuff was in The Silmarillion, unpublished in Tolkien's life time. As far as we can be certain about anything, Tolkien had female Dwarves bearded. That is that. There is no argument. There can be no argument.
    And Balrogs numbered in the thousands and rode upon dragons.

    Which changed when J.R.R. decide to use one in a published piece. What else would he have changed?

    If female Dwarves ALL have beards and look like males? Why would Gimli be so smitten with Galadriel?
    ****Bogarts! We hates Bogarts!****

  23. #48

    Talking Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonsy View Post
    What?? There are no female dwarves??

    . Besides, it's better to be called a "he" than a "they"....that's been driving me nuts lately. "Durchest has broken Sonsy of their fear!" Ugh...I am NOT a THEY! :P I'm as bad about saying and writing that as anyone, but not it published text.
    I refer to them as an It! As in "Durchest has broken It's fear!" Since dwarves are so short, I feel a short word is appropriate.
    When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse, out of the corner of my eye.
    Every time you make plans, a Dev smiles.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a0000000ca94b/signature.png]Sageborn[/charsig]

  24. #49

    Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Toranoga View Post
    If female Dwarves ALL have beards and look like males? Why would Gimli be so smitten with Galadriel?
    Let's not forget it was Galadriel's hair that Gimli was especially drawn to, earning him the title "Lockbearer" when he asked for a strand as a gift. True it wasn't on her face, but it still suggests a connection between hair and feminine attractiveness that is not contrary to the idea of female dwarf beards at all. Might as well ask why Arwen was so attracted to a man, someone who would easily grow facial hair when elves tend to be clean-shaven except sometimes late in their lifetimes.

    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder regardless of the race or cultural background.

  25. Re: Why no female dwarves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Toranoga View Post
    And Balrogs numbered in the thousands and rode upon dragons.

    Which changed when J.R.R. decide to use one in a published piece. What else would he have changed?

    If female Dwarves ALL have beards and look like males? Why would Gimli be so smitten with Galadriel?
    We know he changed his mind because the latest text he wrote shows that, and that was published in The Silmarillion. Stop being so difficult.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0620500000009263b/01003/signature.png]Arasilion[/charsig]

 

 
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