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Thread: Defiler vs ?

  1. #76

    Re: Defiler vs ?

    After almost 2 years of playing my defiler, I know for a fact that the only two classes able to beat a well played defiler above rank 9 are a lucky RK and a rank 9+ spider. Take it from me, all other classes can get close but can not win.
    Last edited by TheCrusher; May 24 2010 at 02:11 AM.

  2. #77
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    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrusher View Post
    After almost 2 years of playing my defiler, I know for a fact that the only two classes able to beat a well played defiler above rank 9 are a lucky RK and a rank 9+ spider. Take it from me, all other classes can get close but can not win.
    I'd take that challenge.

    And I know other Champs who would as well.

    As for Champs v Reavers? Even with DR a Champ has a solid chance if they run through their cooldowns in the right order and have them all, including man heal.

    The problem with Champs in most of these high ranked fights is that they're very dependant on cooldowns. So they're not going to win a second tough fight anytime soon afterwords.
    Last edited by Thane9; May 24 2010 at 11:11 AM.
    [FONT=Tahoma][COLOR=#ffffff][COLOR=red][FONT=Tahoma][B][COLOR=darkorchid]Second Marshal[/COLOR] Luc Brandenbuck[/B][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=#a9a9a9][FONT=Tahoma] ~[B]Battlemaster[/B]~
    Stalker's Enemy*Reaver's Enemy*Blackarrow's Enemy*Warleader-Foe*Weaver's Enemy*Defiler-Foe
    [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ffffff][COLOR=lime][FONT=Tahoma][COLOR=#ff0000][FONT=Tahoma][B]Champion[/B][FONT=Tahoma]:[SIZE=1]'The only thing our opponents can do that we care about is die.'-Graalx2[/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]
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  3. #78

    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyloo22546 View Post
    So by saying results of actual situations that have happened is delving deeper into hypothetical? I must not know what hypothetical means then...
    So, let me get this straight, everytime you 1v1 an LM, you both spend hours experimenting with trait setups and strategies and discussing how things worked and how you could do things differently (the "actual situations" you are describing)? Or is that just something that has happened once, or maybe a couple of times, to just you and one of your friends? Are these "actual situations" something that has happened to ALL LM's and ALL defilers? I think not, I think most LM's and most defilers, whether they are mediocre or absolutely brilliant, tend to have a particular way they approach things and stick with it. If I had to run to a bard/vault to re-trait/re-gear everytime I saw someone I'd like to try a 1v1 with, I'd never get any fighting done and it's quite possible I'll never get the fight I was hoping for anyway.



    That depends on the person's playstyle. There are certain people who like to 1vs1 specifically so will trait to whatever means gets them the best results. Btw: the solid strat to beating a supreme LM is to kill the pet first every time. Worked on all the builds, not just some.
    So, this persons preferred playstyle must also include the possibility of seeing a reaver, running to bard, retraiting for optimal build vs. reaver, come back, no reaver, see a defiler, run to bard, retrait for optimum build vs. defiler, come back, no defiler etc. etc. Or are we talking about glorified fightclubbing? Because in either case, it is not typical and thus purely an academic curiosity. Btw: I never kill the pet and I've never lost to an LM, waste of time. Maybe if you healed for more and were more efficient (see later) you might see the same thing.



    You are saying the false information about skills you posted is perfectly valid in the context you written? I don't see how false information = perfectly valid.
    Ah yes, flogging a dead horse I see. Makes you feel good eh? I hope you don't fall into the same trap as me, oh wait....



    Umm yes. What is bad about my defiler build? I have high morale; therefore will take longer to burst dps down (allowing healers to react to get me healed up). Good crit protection preventing the spike crits which cause burst dps. Good healing output (HoTs heal for more-->less healing needed). The only thing the build lacks is a high power pool: but being a good defiler can manage power pretty well, that shouldn't be an issue according to you. So where would the poor performance from defiler come into play based on how I trait? I'd love to hear more of your false information responses from fantasy land. I enjoy a good laugh.
    Didn't say there's anything wrong with you build if it's a group/raid build. Just wondering if that's the same way you trait for 1v1's. If it is, then it's bad. For 1v1's you should be traiting full DPS (damage for power/health rank 1/2 and probably morale for power r1/2). Seeing as you obviously haven't noticed yet (since you think your HoTs are healing for more in your current build), +damage also applies to heals, so your heals become more powerful AND you burn down freeps faster. Bigger heals mean you need to refresh HoTs less, which means more efficient power use. Doing more DPS means fights are shorter, which means more efficient power use. At rank 6, so forget about high icpr or crit ratings or anything like that, I could beat incredibly good PvP guards, who use ALL their cooldowns, WITHOUT using my big heal, and only using ONE power pot. Can you do that at r10 with your build?

    Anyway, I could be petty, like you, and keep drawing attention to the fact that a r10 defiler doesn't know that traiting for damage is equivalent to traiting for healing in every post I make from now on, but I won't stoop to your level. I already feel a little dirty....
    Wulfhram (Hunter), Boborrin (Champ), Garrth (Captain) assorted others

  4. #79

    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thane9 View Post
    I'd take that challenge.

    And I know other Champs who would as well.
    Hehe. Champs.

    Whilst I agree that vs. a ranked reaver, a very good champ who uses all their cooldowns to good effect in addition to moving and timing well, has a chance, vs. a defiler it's a no contest. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply hasn't fought any half-decent defilers.

    As you probably know, my main is a Champ, I'm very experienced with our capabilities and I love the Champ class, but I'm also a realist. Defilers are simply too OP for Champs...
    Wulfhram (Hunter), Boborrin (Champ), Garrth (Captain) assorted others

  5. #80

    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    So, let me get this straight, everytime you 1v1 an LM, you both spend hours experimenting with trait setups and strategies and discussing how things worked and how you could do things differently (the "actual situations" you are describing)? Or is that just something that has happened once, or maybe a couple of times, to just you and one of your friends? Are these "actual situations" something that has happened to ALL LM's and ALL defilers? I think not, I think most LM's and most defilers, whether they are mediocre or absolutely brilliant, tend to have a particular way they approach things and stick with it. If I had to run to a bard/vault to re-trait/re-gear everytime I saw someone I'd like to try a 1v1 with, I'd never get any fighting done and it's quite possible I'll never get the fight I was hoping for anyway.
    Do people run around with a specific build looking to come across certain classes for 1vs1? yes. It doesn't matter how many people do it, the fact remains that there is a very select few who will do it at times. It sounds like you have zero experience with fighting classes who specifically trait to 1vs1 certain classes. You chose to ignore the fact that a select few people do trait for those kind of fights.

    I agree that a good defiler will never lose to a LM. I was disagreeing with your strategy to beat every LM every time.

    The funny thing is, classes AVOID 1vs1 with defiler simply because if they do they will generally never get much fighting done because the fights can take awhile. That is why when I do 1vs1 on my defiler vs people, they are specifically looking to fight me and come prepared.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    For 1v1's you should be traiting full DPS (damage for power/health rank 1/2 and probably morale for power r1/2). Seeing as you obviously haven't noticed yet (since you think your HoTs are healing for more in your current build), +damage also applies to heals, so your heals become more powerful AND you burn down freeps faster. Bigger heals mean you need to refresh HoTs less, which means more efficient power use. Doing more DPS means fights are shorter, which means more efficient power use. At rank 6, so forget about high icpr or crit ratings or anything like that, I could beat incredibly good PvP guards, who use ALL their cooldowns, WITHOUT using my big heal, and only using ONE power pot. Can you do that at r10 with your build?

    Anyway, I could be petty, like you, and keep drawing attention to the fact that a r10 defiler doesn't know that traiting for damage is equivalent to traiting for healing in every post I make from now on, but I won't stoop to your level. I already feel a little dirty....
    Guess what, I never said that traiting for damage does not increase healing. Please quote me where I even remotely assumed that. Your false info I specifically quoted: and it was things that cannot be disputed; for example, defiler fear lasts 10s max, NOT 15. I'll be waiting for the quote, until then I will continue to laugh at your petty attempts.

    I haven't come across a guard 1vs1 in a long time, but anytime I did I have won and I doubt i'd ever lose during SoM. I wouldn't even have to use a power pot. Guardians are gimped vs defilers so I don't even know why you'd bring that example up.

    Are you saying that you run around with 7,140 morale in 1vs1 (based off the build you mentioned above)? At rank 6 though, that build would brings the defiler down to 6,491 morale. From a damage perspective (assuming noncrits again), your full fire gourd (including initial + DoT) does 77 more damage than my build only. Headbreaker only does 74 more damage (including initial + DoT). That isn't much of a damage increase. BoF is always 39. A FoS traited RK (with perfect imagery legendary..which is COMMON for dps RKs to trait out there) would easily burn that defiler build every time but you seem to think otherwise.

    The reason I don't trait ALL damage and/or use your build(even in 1vs1):

    1. I have 1,563 more morale (assuming R7 racial slotted) -- 81 more power.
    2. 2.5% more crit defense and 0.9% more dev crit defence. (taking a non-crit instead of a crit or dev crit means you need LESS healing). More dps classes (heck even non-dps classes) are getting the crit multiplier legacies now days so the difference between a non-crit and a crit is huge.
    3. the extra damage output isn't worth it imo. I haven't lost to any class solo in SoM; therefore, there is no need for me to change my build for soloing.
    Last edited by timmyloo22546; May 24 2010 at 08:19 PM.

  6. #81
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    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    Hehe. Champs.

    Whilst I agree that vs. a ranked reaver, a very good champ who uses all their cooldowns to good effect in addition to moving and timing well, has a chance, vs. a defiler it's a no contest. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply hasn't fought any half-decent defilers.

    As you probably know, my main is a Champ, I'm very experienced with our capabilities and I love the Champ class, but I'm also a realist. Defilers are simply too OP for Champs...
    I find defilers a lot easier than reavers, and I have beaten several high ranked defilers before.
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  7. #82
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    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherGab View Post
    I wonder how skilled the spiders were
    Don't know at the time, the spider/s were about rank 5+, one i think was rank 7, but they had beaten some others.

  8. #83

    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyloo22546 View Post
    Do people run around with a specific build looking to come across certain classes for 1vs1? yes. It doesn't matter how many people do it, the fact remains that there is a very select few who will do it at times. It sounds like you have zero experience with fighting classes who specifically trait to 1vs1 certain classes. You chose to ignore the fact that a select few people do trait for those kind of fights.

    I agree that a good defiler will never lose to a LM. I was disagreeing with your strategy to beat every LM every time.

    The funny thing is, classes AVOID 1vs1 with defiler simply because if they do they will generally never get much fighting done because the fights can take awhile. That is why when I do 1vs1 on my defiler vs people, they are specifically looking to fight me and come prepared.
    ./sigh

    I've said, and repeated several times, MOST LM'S. What part of that is difficult to understand? You yourself and now saying that a "select FEW" players, choose to approach things differently. Did I say ALL LM's? No I didn't, so therefore, I AM acknowledging that these sorts of people exist. Acknowledging = ignoring in your books I see. I don't see the point in continuing a discusssion with someone who cannot be bothered to follow what the other person is saying and just makes up some random rubbish to argue against to make themselves look better.

    The fights I have do not take very long at all. It's a misconception that defiler fights take ages, and if you as a r10 defiler think they do, then you're simply doing it wrong. The only fights that take what one might consider a long time are the ones vs. shield traited Wardens.

    I disagree with you that people avoid fights with defilers because of their length. Even if they do take a long time, a common disgruntlement amongst many is how quick fights generally are and as such leave little "wriggle room" or scope for strategy, counter strategy, thought etc. So a fight takes longer than 20s, so what? Considering the sentiment towards short fights that are over before you have the chance to react to anything, a defiler fight, or a melee being kited by an LM fight, should in theory be rather popular. They aren't though, and unless most people are in fact hypocrits when they comment on the length of fights, I believe that most people avoid defiler fights because they are fought at the pace of the defiler. That's a very different kettle of fish, as I mentioned, because it does no necessarily mean the fight takes extraordinary amounts of time.

    Guess what, I never said that traiting for damage does not increase healing. Please quote me where I even remotely assumed that. Your false info I specifically quoted: and it was things that cannot be disputed; for example, defiler fear lasts 10s max, NOT 15. I'll be waiting for the quote, until then I will continue to laugh at your petty attempts.
    Go back and read my post, paying particular attention to what I had said, and what I had quoted (since by definition, what I write is in context of the quote). There is a part which I bolded for emphasis, which you seemed to have overlooked. In reference to your current build, which is NOT traited for damage, you have written that your "HoTs heal for more---->less healing". This is wrong. Plain and simple. HoTs heal for more if you trait for damage, don't trait for damage and by definition you heals for less, and need to do more healing. Your high morale pool makes no difference whatsoever (I'll get to that in a minute).

    I haven't come across a guard 1vs1 in a long time, but anytime I did I have won and I doubt i'd ever lose during SoM. I wouldn't even have to use a power pot. Guardians are gimped vs defilers so I don't even know why you'd bring that example up.
    Never said you'd lose. Just saying that based on your build, the fight will take a long time. You wouldn't need to use a power pot because of your icpr. I said despite inferior icpr, and despite low starting health, I don't use my big heal and I basically don't use power pots despite a Guardian using their full array of cooldowns. Based on your experience of fights, with your build, do you think if you had the same icpr as me that you could say the same?

    Are you saying that you run around with 7,140 morale in 1vs1 (based off the build you mentioned above)? At rank 6 though, that build would brings the defiler down to 6,491 morale. From a damage perspective (assuming noncrits again), your full fire gourd (including initial + DoT) does 77 more damage than my build only. Headbreaker only does 74 more damage (including initial + DoT). That isn't much of a damage increase. BoF is always 39. A FoS traited RK (with perfect imagery legendary..which is COMMON for dps RKs to trait out there) would easily burn that defiler build every time but you seem to think otherwise.

    The reason I don't trait ALL damage and/or use your build(even in 1vs1):

    1. I have 1,563 more morale (assuming R7 racial slotted) -- 81 more power.
    2. 2.5% more crit defense and 0.9% more dev crit defence. (taking a non-crit instead of a crit or dev crit means you need LESS healing). More dps classes (heck even non-dps classes) are getting the crit multiplier legacies now days so the difference between a non-crit and a crit is huge.
    3. the extra damage output isn't worth it imo. I haven't lost to any class solo in SoM; therefore, there is no need for me to change my build for soloing.
    Well the RK part is just plain wrong unless they get disgustingly lucky, in which case your build would not make much difference either. I simply accept it when that happens because things are so heavily in our favour in general.

    Now, to address your 3 points.

    1. 1.5k health is completely irrelevant. The total effective morale pool of a defiler is much higher than 7k, or 8k or whatever. In most fights, it's closer to 18-20k. This is roughly the amount of damage a typical dps traited opponent does in the time it takes for me to burn them down. I've parsed many fights (you should too, it's quite eye-opening) and this is generally the ballpark for a highly skilled player. If said player chooses to blow cooldowns, depending on the class, this number could even double.

    Poor players, or badly geared players, obviously don't do as much damage (I've been known to not heal at all in some fights...), but we are not talking about them because in those cases there is just as little risk of losing with 6.5k starting morale as there is with 8.5k.

    So, given that we're really talking about a ~20k morale pool, the chance of losing is not related to how big or small your starting morale is, but instead on how QUICKLY and EFFICIENTLY you can achieve the "target" morale which corresponds to the relative DPS difference between yourself and your opponent. You can run the maths if you like, it's not difficult, just a little time consuming. What you'll find is that your assertion that a higher starting morale makes you "safer" is not correct.

    In fact, due to the inferior level of your HoT's, you'll find yourself at a lower percentage of your total morale for longer periods of time (straight battle between your HPS vs opponent DPS, opponent DPS is basically the same, HPS is lower).

    For most fights vs. average players, the "risk" associated with effective total morale is about the same regardless of starting morale. For longer fights (in terms of the total healing required), or fights vs. highly skilled/geared players, traiting for damage is safer due to the speed you can increase your effective morale pool to a level beyond the reach of your opponent before they are defeated.

    2. You value the 2.5% crit protection too highly in terms of 1v1's. In raids/groups, when you are being focus fired (and hopefully focus healed), it's benefits are more or less at the level you describe though. Let's look at it in reverse: Call it 3% difference in crit protection and let's say the opponent in question has a capped crit rating (not generally possible without capt buffs apart from for certain skills which are effected by traits/trait line bonuses). IIRC, maxed crit protection build offers a total of ~10% crit protection, so in other words, without traiting for crit protection, you still have ~7% of crit protection. So, what we end up with is a freep with either 5% crit chance, or 8%. Neither are very high in the end of the day. The only classes where that amount of crit chance makes a significant difference to the amount of total DPS are Wardens and Burgs. All other classes simply don't hit fast enough or often enough for it to sway in their favour.

    So what we are left with is spike, and nothing but spike. I'd argue that there are but 3 classes who could potentially spike damage a defiler to death, RK's, obviously, Mini's, and possibly a 2h Champ (RS->BF->Crafted Horn->RS->Burn). Hunters would need to get a BH HS off, and if you let one do that in a 1v1 then I'm sorry but you deserve to die. LM's rely on two very long induction skills. Etc. Etc. Regardless of how it's supposed to be possible, you need a certain number of skills to crit in a row, in some cases you need full attunement or a series of skills to be off cooldown at the same time, you need a few things in your favour, but if you disregard all of that and ONLY take the skills that need to crit, and sum the chances of them doing so with a 5 or 8% crit chance, you'll find that in both cases the chances is so small it's inconsequential. As a result, traiting for crit protection in 1v1's is pretty much a waste of time. I can count on one finger the number of times I've been "spiked" to death, and that's despite NEVER, EVER having traited for crit protection in 1v1's. The 2.5% you laud is nowhere near as effective as you make out.

    3. Finally your last point. More damage is ALWAYS worth it. In EVERY single aspect of this game, from PvP to PvE, from zergfests to 1v1's, from raiding to soloing. More damage is ALWAYS worth it. Furthermore, 10% more damage, is ALWAYS 10% more damage. It's never relative. If you can't see that, then I sincerely need to question your experience in MMO's in general.

    Anyway, I do hope you enjoyed this. You said you were hoping for a laugh, well, there you go. For everyone else, I apologise for making your eyes bleed...
    Wulfhram (Hunter), Boborrin (Champ), Garrth (Captain) assorted others

  9. #84
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    Re: Defiler vs ?

    There was a question about how LM's trait and 1v1's. I can tell you that the way I trait for general moorsing is not very good for 1v1's. So I am severely gimped if you catch me off guard. This is because of the nature of PVP on Vilya (and I assume all of LOTRO.) This is that everyone solo's and therefore is looking to optimize their dps at the cost of survivability because you want to get the most renown out of whichever target everyone is burning down.

    Thus the main difference in how I spec for 1v1's and how I spec for moorsing is that for 1v1's I trait the eagle instead of improved sticky gourd and go 4 deep in master of nature's fury as opposed to 5. In general, with a few exceptions, the way I trait for 1v1's is 4 MoNF and three other traits with the eagle, the only classes that are an exception are champions and runekeepers. Now the 4 MoNF + the eagle are the crucial parts, the other 3 traits do vary from class to class BUT THEY ARE NOT THAT IMPORTANT. They only make small differences. For example, there is no reason to slot the trait that increases the duration of stun immunity and stealth detection if I'm going up against a reaver, so I'll swap that for something that increases miss chance on fire lore. But again, these things are not so important.

    Now for fighting a defiler that's different. You MUST trait for no induction on blinding flash, and you MUST trait for increased power drain, and its highly recommended to lower the cooldown on your heal so you can keep your pet up.

    So as to whether or not I run back to the bard every time I am 1v1ing a creep, let me ask you, how exactly do 1v1's occur. How often do you get to have a 1v1 that isn't arranged or interrupted some how? Not very often for me. I wish I could run around the moors and run into creeps 1v1 but that never happens to me at least, even when I do patrol creep side. So if I'm meeting a creep somewhere to fight them, why not stop by the bard and retrait to optimize my skill. If it's a fight club, which unfortunately we don't have on vilya, I can stick with 4MoNF + eagle + blinding flash induction, stealth detection, and decreased induction on sticky tar and I should be good.
    "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle, and quick to anger!"
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  10. #85
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    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    Hehe. Champs.

    Anyone who thinks otherwise simply hasn't fought any half-decent defilers.

    (
    You clearly havnt fought any half decent champs

  11. #86

    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    ./sigh

    I've said, and repeated several times, MOST LM'S. What part of that is difficult to understand? You yourself and now saying that a "select FEW" players, choose to approach things differently. Did I say ALL LM's? No I didn't, so therefore, I AM acknowledging that these sorts of people exist. Acknowledging = ignoring in your books I see. I don't see the point in continuing a discusssion with someone who cannot be bothered to follow what the other person is saying and just makes up some random rubbish to argue against to make themselves look better.
    You said most LMs. You didn't classify the rest of them as being the select few. The pool of LMs left that aren't in the "most" category could simply be people who go to the Moors but run with whatever they have traited at the time. That could potentially be far different than the "select few" I classified. Therefore, you technically didn't acknowledge them. Would you like ANOTHER try at it?

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    The fights I have do not take very long at all. It's a misconception that defiler fights take ages, and if you as a r10 defiler think they do, then you're simply doing it wrong. The only fights that take what one might consider a long time are the ones vs. shield traited Wardens.
    Well what is "long" is all relative. Fights with reavers or wargs can end in 15-30s. But anything vs a defiler will last a minute or longer unless maybe a RK.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    I disagree with you that people avoid fights with defilers because of their length. Even if they do take a long time, a common disgruntlement amongst many is how quick fights generally are and as such leave little "wriggle room" or scope for strategy, counter strategy, thought etc. So a fight takes longer than 20s, so what? Considering the sentiment towards short fights that are over before you have the chance to react to anything, a defiler fight, or a melee being kited by an LM fight, should in theory be rather popular. They aren't though, and unless most people are in fact hypocrits when they comment on the length of fights, I believe that most people avoid defiler fights because they are fought at the pace of the defiler. That's a very different kettle of fish, as I mentioned, because it does no necessarily mean the fight takes extraordinary amounts of time.
    Mini vs defiler would take awhile (both can heal). Warden vs defiler cuz wardens HoTs will heal more than defiler dps. Guard vs Defiler (guards have a few return morale skills, and pledge to avoid defiler dps). LMs cuz they can flank heal and get the stuns/set backs on inductions to drag it out. Captains because they have so much morale and a few ways to get morale back. So compared to a warg or reaver fighting a freep, a defiler fight generally takes twice as long if not more.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    Go back and read my post, paying particular attention to what I had said, and what I had quoted (since by definition, what I write is in context of the quote). There is a part which I bolded for emphasis, which you seemed to have overlooked. In reference to your current build, which is NOT traited for damage, you have written that your "HoTs heal for more---->less healing". This is wrong. Plain and simple. HoTs heal for more if you trait for damage, don't trait for damage and by definition you heals for less, and need to do more healing. Your high morale pool makes no difference whatsoever (I'll get to that in a minute).
    I'll give you half credit on that. I never specified what "good healing output" was being compared to. However, I have more +damage traited than -damage. So going from MoM to SoM, I have a better healing output than I use to even without the +3% healing from damage passive. I still never said that traiting +damage does not increase healing tho.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    Never said you'd lose. Just saying that based on your build, the fight will take a long time. You wouldn't need to use a power pot because of your icpr. I said despite inferior icpr, and despite low starting health, I don't use my big heal and I basically don't use power pots despite a Guardian using their full array of cooldowns. Based on your experience of fights, with your build, do you think if you had the same icpr as me that you could say the same?
    So you gimp yourself against a gimped class (vs defilers) to try n make yourself look cool? That is so amazing!

    I can tell you right now that even tho your build has 10% more damage corruptions, the tooltip of the actual dps skills is increased by less than 10%. Now take into account BoF which is the same damage for both us, that narrows the DPS difference of a fight even more. So instead of the 10% perceived dps difference, it is really only around 5-8% i'd say. So if a fight takes you 60s it would take me 65s. If it takes you 120s, it'd take me 130s. I wouldn't say my fights take that much longer than your fights even tho you have "10%" more damage traited than me.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    Well the RK part is just plain wrong unless they get disgustingly lucky, in which case your build would not make much difference either. I simply accept it when that happens because things are so heavily in our favour in general.
    When you learn about RKs let me know. RKs have a high rate of 7k+ burst damage on a defiler when played right (the RK can essentially control that burst period. Against an 8.7k morale, it isn't going be a high rate anymore, just low-medium because the RK will have more morale to eat through which your HoTs won't make up for in that short period of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    Now, to address your 3 points.

    1. 1.5k health is completely irrelevant. The total effective morale pool of a defiler is much higher than 7k, or 8k or whatever. In most fights, it's closer to 18-20k. This is roughly the amount of damage a typical dps traited opponent does in the time it takes for me to burn them down. I've parsed many fights (you should too, it's quite eye-opening) and this is generally the ballpark for a highly skilled player. If said player chooses to blow cooldowns, depending on the class, this number could even double.

    So, given that we're really talking about a ~20k morale pool, the chance of losing is not related to how big or small your starting morale is, but instead on how QUICKLY and EFFICIENTLY you can achieve the "target" morale which corresponds to the relative DPS difference between yourself and your opponent. You can run the maths if you like, it's not difficult, just a little time consuming. What you'll find is that your assertion that a higher starting morale makes you "safer" is not correct.

    In fact, due to the inferior level of your HoT's, you'll find yourself at a lower percentage of your total morale for longer periods of time (straight battle between your HPS vs opponent DPS, opponent DPS is basically the same, HPS is lower).

    2. You value the 2.5% crit protection too highly in terms of 1v1's. In raids/groups, when you are being focus fired (and hopefully focus healed), it's benefits are more or less at the level you describe though. Let's look at it in reverse: Call it 3% difference in crit protection and let's say the opponent in question has a capped crit rating (not generally possible without capt buffs apart from for certain skills which are effected by traits/trait line bonuses). IIRC, maxed crit protection build offers a total of ~10% crit protection, so in other words, without traiting for crit protection, you still have ~7% of crit protection. So, what we end up with is a freep with either 5% crit chance, or 8%. Neither are very high in the end of the day. The only classes where that amount of crit chance makes a significant difference to the amount of total DPS are Wardens and Burgs. All other classes simply don't hit fast enough or often enough for it to sway in their favour.

    So what we are left with is spike, and nothing but spike. I'd argue that there are but 3 classes who could potentially spike damage a defiler to death, RK's, obviously, Mini's, and possibly a 2h Champ (RS->BF->Crafted Horn->RS->Burn). Hunters would need to get a BH HS off, and if you let one do that in a 1v1 then I'm sorry but you deserve to die. LM's rely on two very long induction skills. Etc. Etc. Regardless of how it's supposed to be possible, you need a certain number of skills to crit in a row, in some cases you need full attunement or a series of skills to be off cooldown at the same time, you need a few things in your favour, but if you disregard all of that and ONLY take the skills that need to crit, and sum the chances of them doing so with a 5 or 8% crit chance, you'll find that in both cases the chances is so small it's inconsequential. As a result, traiting for crit protection in 1v1's is pretty much a waste of time. I can count on one finger the number of times I've been "spiked" to death, and that's despite NEVER, EVER having traited for crit protection in 1v1's. The 2.5% you laud is nowhere near as effective as you make out.

    3. Finally your last point. More damage is ALWAYS worth it. In EVERY single aspect of this game, from PvP to PvE, from zergfests to 1v1's, from raiding to soloing. More damage is ALWAYS worth it. Furthermore, 10% more damage, is ALWAYS 10% more damage. It's never relative. If you can't see that, then I sincerely need to question your experience in MMO's in general.

    Anyway, I do hope you enjoyed this. You said you were hoping for a laugh, well, there you go. For everyone else, I apologise for making your eyes bleed...
    1. See comment about RKs. Higher morale pool = more likely to have cushion to take the controlled burst dps. The rest of your point is irrelevant since I kill the freep in the end every time.

    2. If you look at a 1vs1 with no outside buffs, I think people sit around 10-12% crit chance. If they have a 10% crit chance they will essentially get ~0 crits with the ~10% crit defense. But they'd have a 2.5% chance against you to crit. What do champs sit around with crit % unbuffed? Also, considering I haven't lost a 1vs1 yet in SoM, how is traiting crit protection a waste of time? I don't play strictly for infamy like the majority of people seem to plus my build is better vs RKs than yours in my experience, and properly played RKs are the 1 class that potentially give any defiler a run for their money, the thing my build does that yours doesn't is minimize that chance of a RK winning

    3. You are wrong wrong wrong. In raids, if you trait all damage there will be times where the healers can't get a heal in on you before you die. But when 1 healer can get a heal thru because of the extra morale cushion, that usually allows for the next healer who was a split second later get their heal thru, and that allows for the other healers to do their heals and the chain reaction of healing starts happening. Therefore, the person lives longer so they can dish out more damage. Doesn't work too well to dps when you are dead. Again, i'm not saying the extra 1k+ morale makes this happen every time, but you emphasied EVERY, and all it takes for that statement to be false is 1 time. I can tell ya from personal experience, your statement is false.
    Last edited by timmyloo22546; May 25 2010 at 03:16 AM.

  12. #87

    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bedelian View Post
    There was a question about how LM's trait and 1v1's. I can tell you that the way I trait for general moorsing is not very good for 1v1's. So I am severely gimped if you catch me off guard. This is because of the nature of PVP on Vilya (and I assume all of LOTRO.) This is that everyone solo's and therefore is looking to optimize their dps at the cost of survivability because you want to get the most renown out of whichever target everyone is burning down.

    Thus the main difference in how I spec for 1v1's and how I spec for moorsing is that for 1v1's I trait the eagle instead of improved sticky gourd and go 4 deep in master of nature's fury as opposed to 5. In general, with a few exceptions, the way I trait for 1v1's is 4 MoNF and three other traits with the eagle, the only classes that are an exception are champions and runekeepers. Now the 4 MoNF + the eagle are the crucial parts, the other 3 traits do vary from class to class BUT THEY ARE NOT THAT IMPORTANT. They only make small differences. For example, there is no reason to slot the trait that increases the duration of stun immunity and stealth detection if I'm going up against a reaver, so I'll swap that for something that increases miss chance on fire lore. But again, these things are not so important.

    Now for fighting a defiler that's different. You MUST trait for no induction on blinding flash, and you MUST trait for increased power drain, and its highly recommended to lower the cooldown on your heal so you can keep your pet up.

    So as to whether or not I run back to the bard every time I am 1v1ing a creep, let me ask you, how exactly do 1v1's occur. How often do you get to have a 1v1 that isn't arranged or interrupted some how? Not very often for me. I wish I could run around the moors and run into creeps 1v1 but that never happens to me at least, even when I do patrol creep side. So if I'm meeting a creep somewhere to fight them, why not stop by the bard and retrait to optimize my skill. If it's a fight club, which unfortunately we don't have on vilya, I can stick with 4MoNF + eagle + blinding flash induction, stealth detection, and decreased induction on sticky tar and I should be good.
    Oh nice some actual information. Decent post. I agree with you on a lot of things you have said. Have you considered traiting for your bog lurker and noble cause vs. defilers. Ranged (and pretty decent once you go down that trait line) DPS, many flanks for heals, much easier to kite. Eagle offers interrupts, but I can focus on inductions whilst the Eagle is feared and everything else when the eagle is on me, making the Eagles effectiveness less than it theoretically is. Food for thought...

    Oh and as for finding 1v1's, I'm sorry that it's not such a regular thing on Vilya. On several servers, including Meneldor, there are many players who enjoy impromtu 1v1's all over the map and as such, it's quite regular in fact to find a at least few players on at any one time, roaming the map, solo, looking for others in the same boat. Most people know who the people who are interested in 1v1's are and as such, when you see them, you know that you are likely to get one. Yes, sometimes, given the nature of the Moors, 1v1's get interrupted by groups or individuals who just happen to come across us, but, equally, 1v1's get respected as well and people don't interfere and either move on or stay and watch. Most people who do that though are the same people who are interested in 1v1's (who are the most likely to come across you anyway since zergs get comfortable and rarely roam once they enter a farming pattern) so it's there way of saying they wouldn't like it to happen to them...

    So in answer to your question, 1v1's happen quite a lot for me. Not as much as I would like, since I'm a defiler and most people don't think they have a chance (correctly, heh), but at least 4-5 a night when I decide to play for a bit which is enough to satisfy me.
    Last edited by pibob314; May 25 2010 at 01:38 PM.
    Wulfhram (Hunter), Boborrin (Champ), Garrth (Captain) assorted others

  13. #88

    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by lotrsam View Post
    You clearly havnt fought any half decent champs
    Yep, that must be it. I must know nothing about Champs....
    Wulfhram (Hunter), Boborrin (Champ), Garrth (Captain) assorted others

  14. #89
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    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    Yep, that must be it. I must know nothing about Champs....
    You don't have to "know nothing" about champs to have never fought one who knows how to tear down a defiler.

    Are they one of the toughest classes out there to beat?

    Absolutely.

    Can they just run away spamming their hots and kite us until they reach Grams? Even with sprint up, yeah.

    But if a defiler fights me until one of us is dead, it's gonna be him a lot of the time.
    [FONT=Tahoma][COLOR=#ffffff][COLOR=red][FONT=Tahoma][B][COLOR=darkorchid]Second Marshal[/COLOR] Luc Brandenbuck[/B][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=#a9a9a9][FONT=Tahoma] ~[B]Battlemaster[/B]~
    Stalker's Enemy*Reaver's Enemy*Blackarrow's Enemy*Warleader-Foe*Weaver's Enemy*Defiler-Foe
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  15. #90
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    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thane9 View Post
    You don't have to "know nothing" about champs to have never fought one who knows how to tear down a defiler.

    Are they one of the toughest classes out there to beat?

    Absolutely.

    Can they just run away spamming their hots and kite us until they reach Grams? Even with sprint up, yeah.

    But if a defiler fights me until one of us is dead, it's gonna be him a lot of the time.
    Hell I'd take a defiler over a reaver or a high ranked warg any day
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  16. #91
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    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    Yep, that must be it. I must know nothing about Champs....
    He didn't say YOU know nothing about champs. He just said you must not of fought any decent ones.

    Reading compre... oh, nevermind.
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  17. #92

    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thane9 View Post
    You don't have to "know nothing" about champs to have never fought one who knows how to tear down a defiler.

    Are they one of the toughest classes out there to beat?

    Absolutely.

    Can they just run away spamming their hots and kite us until they reach Grams? Even with sprint up, yeah.

    But if a defiler fights me until one of us is dead, it's gonna be him a lot of the time.
    If you say so....

    I've beaten high ranked (8+) defilers on my Champ before, so I know exactly where you are coming from, but ALL of those defilers sucked.....hard. It was clear that none of them really understood their potential, they moved terribly and were not used to fighting in melee, and they went through power extremely inefficiently.

    There are several Champs on Meneldor who I would say are much better than me at PvPing (on Champ). I'm sure every single one of them could beat the same defilers I've beaten. BUT, when they have fought me, a defiler who fights back and knows what they are doing, none of them have even gotten close to beating me. CBR (or not), CB, cooldowns, clickies, food, scrolls, token, dp perks, whatever. You can use anything you like and it won't make a difference. I guarantee you, that unless I lag into oblivion, there is no way you would win a single 1v1 against me.

    It's not that I'm bragging or saying that I'm somehow amazing or something like that. I know quite well and freely admit that I'm not the best PvPer around on any class at all. I do know a lot about the game though and have a lot of experience and I use that to my advantage. The simple truth though is that Defilers are so OP in 1v1's that even an average one of r6+ can beat almost anyone without trying. A Defiler has to be really bad or not have a clue what they are doing to lose a 1v1.

    A question for you. What is your success rate in 1v1's vs. rank 9+ Reavers? I'm sure you win a few, I know you're a good player and there not all Reavers are "amazing". But against the very best Reavers on Landroval, how would you rate your successfulness? Since rank 6, I've never lost or drawn a spar vs. a rank 9+ Reaver (mostly spar a r10 friend of mine who is VERY, VERY good...)
    Wulfhram (Hunter), Boborrin (Champ), Garrth (Captain) assorted others

  18. #93
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    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    If you say so....

    I've beaten high ranked (8+) defilers on my Champ before, so I know exactly where you are coming from, but ALL of those defilers sucked.....hard. It was clear that none of them really understood their potential, they moved terribly and were not used to fighting in melee, and they went through power extremely inefficiently.

    There are several Champs on Meneldor who I would say are much better than me at PvPing (on Champ). I'm sure every single one of them could beat the same defilers I've beaten. BUT, when they have fought me, a defiler who fights back and knows what they are doing, none of them have even gotten close to beating me. CBR (or not), CB, cooldowns, clickies, food, scrolls, token, dp perks, whatever. You can use anything you like and it won't make a difference. I guarantee you, that unless I lag into oblivion, there is no way you would win a single 1v1 against me.

    It's not that I'm bragging or saying that I'm somehow amazing or something like that. I know quite well and freely admit that I'm not the best PvPer around on any class at all. I do know a lot about the game though and have a lot of experience and I use that to my advantage. The simple truth though is that Defilers are so OP in 1v1's that even an average one of r6+ can beat almost anyone without trying. A Defiler has to be really bad or not have a clue what they are doing to lose a 1v1.

    A question for you. What is your success rate in 1v1's vs. rank 9+ Reavers? I'm sure you win a few, I know you're a good player and there not all Reavers are "amazing". But against the very best Reavers on Landroval, how would you rate your successfulness? Since rank 6, I've never lost or drawn a spar vs. a rank 9+ Reaver (mostly spar a r10 friend of mine who is VERY, VERY good...)
    how i wish we had open server pvp. OHHH...ego's would crumble.

  19. #94

    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by lotrsam View Post
    how i wish we had open server pvp. OHHH...ego's would crumble.
    Perhaps some of my choice of words was not best suited for what I'm trying to say.

    Think about some hypothetical class, call it whatever you want, that is so incredibly overpowered, that every other class could be played at it's maximum potential and perfect strategy executed, but still lose to that particular class fulfilling only 50% of its potential, EVERY TIME.

    In essence, in this game at the moment, Defilers are as close to that class as there is. With the exception of one special case (Weavers, though some believe that the outcome should always be a draw, not me incidentally), NO class can beat a Defiler being played to its potential without disgusting amounts of luck. Some classes offer more of a challenge than others, and some can do things to increase their effectiveness, but at the end of the day, if the Defiler is good, wants to win, and knows how to, they will, and there is nothing the other person can do about it apart from run away.

    It's irrelevant how good or bad of a player I am. I play an overpowered class and make no apologies for it. I play it well, not amazingly, understand its potential and do an ok job of manifesting it, but I'm by no means a great PvPer. For one thing, I play on an ancient laptop not designed for gaming with terrible graphics, terrible lag, terrible latency and a terrible skillbar set up. I alternate midfight between two hands on the keyboard and keyboard turning, and then mouse turning and back and forth... I'm nothing special, but, and it's a big BUT, I STILL win against some of the highest skilled and experienced PvPers in the game, and I feel, in all of those fights, that I'm really not trying. Why? BECAUSE I PLAY AN OVERPOWERED CLASS. It's as simple as that.

    Unless Champs have suddenely become THE PvP god-class overnight, they will ALWAYS lose against a decent Defiler. I was going to say that it's a shame that you have not seen or experienced a Defiler being played to a decent level at 1v1's, but iirc, Grievous used to play on E, or am I thinking of someone else (there were 2 r11 defilers on E but 1 xfered)? He is/was (think he's retired) very good and I'm sure he'll attest to much of what I have said. Nopain is a great defiler too, very experienced (to say the least) and a great healer, but from what I remember of my time on E, she would mostly be running in a small tribe group and doesn't do much 1v1ing.

    Admittedly there are few Defilers that run around at all, of those, you need to filter off the ones who predominantly group, then filter off those who are not interested in 1v1's, then filter off those who are simply not very good and in the end you are not left with very many skilled (not necessarily highly skilled), 1v1 Defilers at all. It's no surprise then that some of you simply haven't seen or can't accept the potential I am describing. Those who know, know.

    And yes, I have an ego the size of a planet, I fully admit that, but I assure you, it's nothing to do with this game and how well or badly I play it....
    Wulfhram (Hunter), Boborrin (Champ), Garrth (Captain) assorted others

  20. #95
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    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Trust me, Despawns champ has fought many top 1v1'ing defilers.

  21. #96
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    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by lotrsam View Post
    how i wish we had open server pvp. OHHH...ego's would crumble.
    And mine would rise!!!!

  22. #97
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    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Guardians can beat defilers take the formula for beating reavers and reverse it
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  23. #98

    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by snorka View Post
    Guardians can beat defilers take the formula for beating reavers and reverse it
    News to me. I guess I could use clarification of said formula.
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  24. #99
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    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grusk View Post
    News to me. I guess I could use clarification of said formula.
    sorry dude defilers are tough enough now you want me to post the formula how to beat them in the forums? its easy to work out for yourself you must beat the player behind the beast. let me put it this way most defiler players would use a harley davidson to deliver the mail (it works but its not practical) its up to you how you want to deliver yours...
    Last edited by snorka; May 26 2010 at 11:59 PM.
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  25. #100
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    Re: Defiler vs ?

    Don't be so sure =)

 

 
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