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  1. #1
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    Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    Greetings LoTRO players of the world! I am Adarin, perhaps better known as Yargax. I'm an old regular of the Ettenmoors and while I have become more casual over the years (thus keeping right around my pre-book 12 rank), I am still a creep at heart and have similarly ranked creeps on various servers and a full set of each on Landroval.

    From release until book 15 I was adamantly opposed to ever bringing my freep into the Ettenmoors. The balance was simply not there to warrant another freep body killing all of my friends and compatriots. Around book 14 and 15 of SoA, however, I noticed that balance had finally made its way to the Ettens. There were some snags with the release of MoM, but by the first major update, the balance was here to stay (mostly).

    Strangely enough, this is also when the moors started to be creep dominated.

    Creep numbers is the common scapegoat for this change, but I think it is only part of the issue. In my extensive experience, a raid of freeps (heck even a small group of freeps) can take on a much larger creep force due to the synergy (aka force multipliers) between the classes. This works just fine if the group is having to deal with a wave of creeps descending upon them.

    The PROBLEM is that creep response times enable them to not be a wave, but instead a tsunami. ALL the creeps in a zone can get to any location at the exact same time due to maps. So even if one raid of creeps is by Lugz and another raid is by TA, they both get to TR at the same time and overwhelm the freeps that could have dealt with them seperately if they arrived at different times.

    This immediate response by so many creeps is the real problem that cripples freep raids, and the fact that the map system was designed for a time when overwhelming creep numbers were necessary is the issue. Since a single creep is almost equal to a single freep, 2 to 1 odds are not what they used to be.

    What is the answer then? Many people favor scrapping the map system entirely. As a player that has SIX ranked creeps all of whom have all their maps I am wary of this (due to the time I put in getting those maps), but I am not ruling it out.... this is really how far things have come for us.

    As a open-minded sort of fellow I thought there would be other options and ideas that we could discuss also.

    I envision three options all of which have their problems...

    Option #1 - No maps (other than Grams and GV) and no mounts
    This would be the LOTRO equivalent of the "nuclear option" from American politics. The benefits of this option though are multi-fold. Small groups of freeps would be more effective because the entire creep army would not be able to immediately respond to reports of them. Also, creeps would have to spread out in order to watch keeps. You couldn't mass all the creeps at TR and expect to save Lugz if it was attacked in force.

    Problems with this abound, however. If one group gets control of both rez circles, it becomes very hard to branch out of your starting area. One fix could be the addition of ONE additional map to OC (for creeps) or EC (for freeps). This would allow for some movement even on a solid color map.

    What to do with the defunct maps and the effort put into getting them is another problem. There should be some reward, but could there ever be a consensus?

    Another major problem is the constant threat of a "ninja" attempt on a keep. Even if the main force of creeps or freeps are around TA, it is very difficult for them to reach a keep that is being "ninja'd" even if they leave immediately. This problem could be solved by FINALLY fixing how the keeps work so "ninja's" are not allowed (e.g. Tyrants cause everything alive in the keep to be aggroed).

    Finally, the biggest problem is the player response. I'm only putting this out as an option and I imagine I will be flamed incessantly for it. One can only imagine the uproar if they actually made the change. Granted, one can argue that the players that would quit over something like this are not ones we want in the Ettenmoors, but they do pay their subscription the same as me and so their voice is not irrelevant.

    Option #2 - Consumable maps
    Another option is the idea that maps become consumable items. You could receive a small stack of them when you complete your deed, but any others would have to be purchased either through barter or straight up with cash (with a "must have completed" requirement).

    The main problem with this is it doesn't change anything. All it does is make creep maps a perpetual grind instead of a one time grind. Also, in many ways it could make the creeps stronger! If they make the maps cost 10s/30s/50s a piece for crude/poor/good, then creeps will make the consistent effort to grind cash much more than they do now. This would mean they would consistently have more cash on hand with which to buy potions, trackers, food, and other items. If they made it a barter situation for delving stones then it would be even worse... Not only would they have more cash from the loot drops, but more creeps would have the stones they've been neglecting in order to get advanced traits.

    Option #3 - A mix of map changes and/or creep movement changes.
    This would be a difficult option to balance, but it would allow for the devs to experiment a bit with the zone. Each option under this one has problems, but they all may be good for discussion:

    Increase map cooldowns
    Remove most maps, but give creeps "mount speed" options
    Remove some maps, but keep everything else.
    Consolidate maps and make some changes to their use (maps upgrade instead of stay... cooldowns increased).

    ----------
    In the end, there are options if we get dev attention. There hasn't been a shift of power in the moors since Book 7 of Mines of Moria. That's a long time to have major zone issues ignored. So, what are your thoughts? Do you have additional suggestions? I know some of you like the status quo, but it really isn't that great status quo wise...
    Last edited by AdarinOuest; May 14 2010 at 01:47 PM.
    [CENTER][SIZE=3][COLOR=#ffd700]Thradin Stoneshield of Baruk Khazad
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  2. #2
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    The concept of consumable maps is fascinating, perhaps instead of purchasing them with traditional silver, just make the existing quest-deeds repeatable, with a reward of a stack of 20 or so per round of completion
    Stry, Captain

  3. #3
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Rconsole View Post
    The concept of consumable maps is fascinating, perhaps instead of purchasing them with traditional silver, just make the existing quest-deeds repeatable, with a reward of a stack of 20 or so per round of completion
    And maybe freeps should have to repurchase their horse after each day (or maybe week) in the 'moors.

    20 maps would be 50 quests completed, not exactly easy to quickly farm up.

  4. #4
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by someenigma View Post
    And maybe freeps should have to repurchase their horse after each day (or maybe week) in the 'moors.

    20 maps would be 50 quests completed, not exactly easy to quickly farm up.
    :'( I hate freeps waaa waaa waaaa. Does you skill bar consist of Fire dot and hinder only? just wondering


    ONe side haveing mounts and the other side having magical maps is STUPID - this is one thing that should the exact same for either side

    I say remove mounts and give freeps maps (OMG BUT I HAVE NO BAG SPACE EFF THAT) well figure it out then... make a map bag something like the key chain

  5. #5
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    I like removing maps and giving creeps mounts...maybe like r7+ can use mounts in the moors? and r9 both side you get a different mount? (obviously freeps get the black horse, but creeps get a cool on specific to your class/race?)
    Your point about freeps being able to handle creep groups individually is the head on the arrow. Its probably like this every server, freeps can handle certain creep raids by themselves, but they cant handle them all...

  6. #6
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    and maybe like r5 you get a slow mount like the bree horse, and steadily upgrade?

  7. #7
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    Creeps should get a toggle skill that works exactly like the Freeps horse skill without actually getting a horse or Warg for your Creep. Could have a regular version of the skill that would be equal to the level 20 Freep starter horse. This would be available to buy at rank 3. Another version of the skill that would be equal to the regular level 35 Freep horse. This would be available to buy at rank 6. The final version of the skill would be equal to a reputation Freep horse. This would be available to buy at rank 9. Then remove creep maps or give freeps maps.

  8. #8
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    As one playing both sides I must say I like it the way it is.

    Creeps get a strategic advantage with their maps.
    Freeps get a tactical advantage with their horses.

    Sometimes I miss not having maps on the Freep side and sometimes I wish I had a mount on the Creep side (even how weird that would be since Im playing a spider ), but overall Ive never ever seen any skewed imbalance due to either.

    /Silkdawn

  9. #9
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    One of the easiest ways to really make maps less powerful, than mounts is to simply eliminate them if the keep their destined near is blue.

    If TR is blue, then all maps to TR (Crude, Poor and Good) should be useless.

    Also, why can't freeps buy DP buffs like creeps? Why can creeps buy +20% out of combat run speed, and freeps can't?

  10. #10
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    Or put a new tree out here for us all to enjoy.

  11. #11
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Bedlem3342 View Post
    Also, why can't freeps buy DP buffs like creeps? Why can creeps buy +20% out of combat run speed, and freeps can't?
    its +5% just like freeps from dp. the + 20% is a delving pot

  12. #12
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    No mounts in the moors; freeps and creeps both get mounts from quests, and the reintroduction of 20% in-combat speed pots from the delving of fror for both sides and maybe set-to-150% speed pots for both sides (that would be usable in combat but requiring at least rank 8 and they'd have a long cooldown). They would also have to put warg sprint, imo, from set to 200% to set to 150% or lower.
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  13. #13
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    I've been fulltime creep for 3 years.... recently started playing freepside the past month... I like both sides having unique versions of thier own ways to mov around the map... Freeps horse, Creeps map.... nothing wrong with it, and quit frankly I wouldnt want to see a mirror image for both sides to have the same thing nor to have either side have thier unique way taken away.... we once asked for hotspots to be taken away and regretted it, and if turbine messes with mounts/maps I think we'll ed up regretting it too.

  14. #14
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by NesterLei View Post
    Or put a new tree out here for us all to enjoy.
    I Like your thinking!
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  15. #15

    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by thenoobler View Post
    we once asked for hotspots to be taken away and regretted it, and if turbine messes with mounts/maps I think we'll ed up regretting it too.
    I think that generally goes for anything we ask.

    I fear asking for a new map cause i bet we will all end up regretting it.
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  16. #16
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Fladrif View Post
    :'( I hate freeps waaa waaa waaaa. Does you skill bar consist of Fire dot and hinder only? just wondering
    Ad hominem attack on me. How quaint.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fladrif View Post
    ONe side haveing mounts and the other side having magical maps is STUPID - this is one thing that should the exact same for either side
    I never said it wasn't stupid. I'm all for both sides having the same/equivalent travel skills. Actually, I'd be happy with both sides having "no" mounts/maps, making tactics slightly more useful.
    My argument was relating to the idea that creep maps should be a repeatable grind, while no comment was made to freeps needing any sort of repeatable grind for their travel options. I think either both sides should need repeatable grinds for their fast travel options, or neither side should need repeatable grinds for their fast travel options.

  17. #17
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by someenigma View Post
    I never said it wasn't stupid. I'm all for both sides having the same/equivalent travel skills. Actually, I'd be happy with both sides having "no" mounts/maps, making tactics slightly more useful.
    My argument was relating to the idea that creep maps should be a repeatable grind, while no comment was made to freeps needing any sort of repeatable grind for their travel options. I think either both sides should need repeatable grinds for their fast travel options, or neither side should need repeatable grinds for their fast travel options.
    Now that the discussion has gone on for a bit I will chime in that this is my opinion.

    With both sides exclusively on foot, the zone would be a much better place to play. Lone creep scouts would not be able to completely protect a keep or location by calling out freep locations and impending attacks (due to instant creep response). Freeps would be able to put a much wider swath of the zone into play also.

    Would this create some problems with the north for freeps and the south for creeps? Yes, but I think they could be solved with an OC/Spider Keep map combo for creeps and an EC/DC map option for freeps. I would say 10 minute cooldowns would be appropriate for them, but it would make the entire map open to both sides at all times. Either way, I think it is time for complete equality in terms of movement options.
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  18. #18
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    Maps and Mounts in their current form must go.

    After you remove all maps and make freep mounts disabled in the moors at some point later you could reintroduce some maps to both sides, IMO as follows

    Each sides gets 3 maps with independant 30m cooldowns, Ost/DG HH/Groth GV/Grams

    Also each side should have access to the same set (same effects/rank req) of delving pots.
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  19. #19

    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by aad0italian View Post
    and maybe like r5 you get a slow mount like the bree horse, and steadily upgrade?
    biggest thing is though creeps can't have mounts because what would a warg ride or weaver for that matter...and having orcs ride wargs wouldn't make sense do to there being a warg class...it would have to be a straight up out of combat run speed item or skill that serves the same purpose as a mount (faster movement) and has an intro like mounts (so its not a everlasting buff that once out of combat lets the creeps go zip away, instantly)
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  20. #20
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    I know! Get rid of mounts and maps, then give freeps run speed pots and make them work in combat again! (And make them stack higher.)

    For the keep deeds done on creeps, just give 'em run speed pots relative to the deeds they completed.


    [EDIT] Oh yeah, and make them stack with other run speed buffs. That'd be nice. (For the skills that set run speed to ___, just make them set run speed to ___ + 10%/15%/20%) [/EDIT]
    Last edited by Brongdha; May 17 2010 at 08:22 PM.
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  21. #21
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    One thing about run speed buffs...

    I am in favor of +20% pots for freeps to match the ones for creeps, but they should NOT work in combat. Also, anything faster than 20% is simply too fast for the intended purpose which is to slow things down so response times allow for smaller groups to not be swarmed everywhere they go.

    The ONE problem removing everything but skill buffs (+15% from Hunter or Warleader) and pots is the north of the map for freeps on a red map and the south of the map for creeps on a blue map. That said though perhaps they should have zones of control... LC and TR are naturally meant to be Blue per the story of the zone.
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  22. #22
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by thenoobler View Post
    .... we once asked for hotspots to be taken away and regretted it...
    Not me. I'm glad they are gone and so are many others. Hot spots sucked.

  23. #23
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    My idea as posted on another thread and blogged:
    Quote Originally Posted by Loth_Don View Post
    Short version:

    I propose removing all mounts and all maps from the ‘moors and implement a version of the stablemaster for the ‘moors, and remove Lugazag and Tirith Rhaw rez circles-all creeps will revive inside Gramsfoot unless rezzed and freeps will revive inside Glan Vraig unless rezzed. All porting/mapping of any kind in the ‘moors would be disabled(except of course in Glan Vraig for freeps wanting to port out).

    I grabbed a map from BAOS’s site and drew on it to show the routes I envisioned. It’s in my gallery atm.

    Here is how I see it working- The Gramsfoot/GV war-travelmaster npc will be the key npc players interact with to travel in the zone. The players MUST complete the ‘moors scouting quests to unlock all travel options in the ‘moors. The routes will cost silver, have an induction( fairly lengthy ones- still much faster than going on foot-certainly safer, but you aren’t being beamed across the map), and require that 2 key npcs be alive at the desired location- those npcs being both that locations own travelmaster AND the locations leader(keep tyrant/cg, camp lieutenant/tyrant, village mayor/leader). The travelmaster will not be right next to the leader, but close. Village and keep travelmasters will trigger a ‘moors announcement if they enter combat. A new announcement will also exist for all keep and camp leaders notifying players that he/she/it is incombat. Elf camp and orc camp travelmasters/leaders will NOT. The actual port destination would be very close to the keep/camp/village leader, making it much safer than current travel methods.



    Longer version:

    http://my.lotro.com/loth_don/2010/01...field-tactics/
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  24. #24

    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    Transit one of the keys to battle.

    I don't like the idea of porting around, whether by maps or stables.

    Whatever the solution is, it ought to have a provision to be able to interrupt one force's movement from location A to B; such a provision opens up the zone to at least some basic distance/route strategy.
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  25. #25
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    Re: Open Idea Thread: Maps, Mounts, and Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Radardog View Post
    Transit one of the keys to battle.

    I don't like the idea of porting around, whether by maps or stables.

    Whatever the solution is, it ought to have a provision to be able to interrupt one force's movement from location A to B; such a provision opens up the zone to at least some basic distance/route strategy.
    In my idea above you can cut off travel routes by killing location leaders or travelmasters. So say the map was red except for lugazag. To return to Lugazag, freeps that released would travel from GV to EC then to lugazag. Each 'port' would have a decent induction and require certain npcs to be alive at the destination point and would avoid the usual door camping and rez camping. Creeps could kill npcs at ec to prevent ports to Lugazag, forcing freeps to either travel by foot to Lugazag OR travel to Hoarhallow then port to Lugazag. Remember, creeps wouldn't have maps either so getting to EC wouldn't be as easy as it is now, but on a red map they could take Grams to OC and then travel to ec on foot. But a good strategy to counter that for freeps would be to kill oc travelmaster/leader....this already seems a lot more strategic than the current 'moors to me. And because of the logical progression of the travel routes, taking keeps deep in enemy territory is still possible but isn't the 'brilliant' and easy move it is now(particularly for creeps).
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