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  1. #26
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by ursinuspip73 View Post
    That's a daze, isn't it?
    It's close enough to be considered the exact same thing. IMO anyway.
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  2. #27
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Creeps already have the best AOE slow in the game, the best AOE Fear in the game, and the best CC skill in the game (a.k.a. CJs en masse). Add to those benefits that Creeps also have the only AOE rez and the only AOE heal.

    Why in the world would do they need an AOE stun?
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  3. #28

    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cajiga View Post



    I have played Freeps in the Moores. As a matter of fact I was a beta tester before launch 3 years ago, I was a tester on the Roheryn server and I was a beta tester for Moria. I've played all Freep classes with all legendary abilities, all Traits, all Deed and all Creep classes with all Racials up to Rank 15. Adding more CC to Freeps is a bad thing, more CC to Creeps is a good thing. I take distinct pleasure hitting Freeps with my Weavers CC
    I don't care if you played freep in the past. I'm asking you to play it now. Playing it in the past is irrelevant.
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  4. #29
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Overtone View Post
    Creeps already have the best AOE slow in the game, the best AOE Fear in the game, and the best CC skill in the game (a.k.a. CJs en masse). Add to those benefits that Creeps also have the only AOE rez and the only AOE heal.

    Why in the world would do they need an AOE stun?
    AOE slow can be discussed between the Tar and the WtE. Still is being discussed. I tend to agree with you here tho. Applying WtE quickly without an induction does have its advantages over Tar imo.

    Because Creeps have ONE fear that can hit like 3 (or 5?) targets in close range doesnt really make the Creep side exactly strong in the fear department here as you wanna make it sound like.

    You do realise that Burgs been able to stunlock with CJs and stuns forever while Wargs been skewed for just some months right? But all off a sudden you wanna make this to that Creeps have better CC? Creeps aint even close, Creeps have never been close in the CC department. Not even with the Wargs newfound love of CJs.

    AoE Rez. True. Nothing to say about this one apart that Ive really never felt the need as a Mini on the other side to have that skill. Freeps by far outheals Creeps.

    AoE Heals. As a Mini I can mention 3 groupheals on top of my head and one more if we go with a certain ballad that increase ICMR greatly, but I understand youre looking for something thats truly an area heal here so I probably will have to settle with the RKs little healingstone. As before tho, Freeps by far outheals Creeps.

    And to your final question, I totally agree with you! Creeps dont need an AoE stun, but please, you dont need to go on like that for something we all Creeps and Freeps already agrees with (well most of us )

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  5. #30
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by bambam21 View Post
    I think before any creep asks for any kind of buff for creep side they should go play their freep for a week or two first. Then decide if the creeps really need any kind of buff right now.
    Probably not long enough, but the point is valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfectlotus View Post
    You do realise that Burgs been able to stunlock with CJs and stuns forever while Wargs been skewed for just some months right? But all off a sudden you wanna make this to that Creeps have better CC? Creeps aint even close, Creeps have never been close in the CC department. Not even with the Wargs newfound love of CJs.
    You're right, burgs have been doing it since the game came out, but the problem is there are FAR, FAR more wargs than burgs. In a freep raid, everyone's always worried about wargs, whereas when I'm on my reaver, I never worry about burgs other than the odd CJ here or there, and I can still live through them.
    Last edited by RGilthanas; May 13 2010 at 10:57 PM.
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  6. #31
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGilthanas View Post
    You're right, burgs have been doing it since the game came out, but the problem is there are FAR, FAR more wargs than burgs. In a freep raid, everyone's always worried about wargs, whereas when I'm on my reaver, I never worry about burgs other than the odd CJ here or there, and I can still live through them.
    Thats a number issue, not a mechanic issue. Also I go down by 2 Burgs before stunlock is over on my fully health traited Defiler just as easily as I go down on my Mini because of two Wargs. They are the same menace imo.

    Something to consider here is perhaps not focusing on the CJs, but rather the mechanic behind their escape skills. Perhaps making it harder to HiPS for both of them? Basicly forcing them to be a bit more sneaky and careful when they take out their preys, as in not taking a stroll to the center of an enemy raid and expect to be able to get out of there the majority of times as it is now. Just an idea.

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  7. #32
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfectlotus View Post
    Freeps by far outheals Creeps.
    Debatable. Highly debatable.

    I'm sure a defiler could more easily keep a 9k morale reaver up alot easier than a minstrel could keep a champ up. There's so many factors into what side has better healing that you can't base it off of just the number according to the tooltips of each classes heal.

    I'd say that defilers are the best "pvp healers" in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfectlotus View Post
    AoE Heals. As a Mini I can mention 3 groupheals on top of my head...
    I think by aoe heal they meant uruk heal. Not group heals but something than can potentionally heal others in an area without being grouped or having them selected to heal.

  8. #33
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by KillGore81 View Post
    Debatable. Highly debatable.

    I'm sure a defiler could more easily keep a 9k morale reaver up alot easier than a minstrel could keep a champ up. There's so many factors into what side has better healing that you can't base it off of just the number according to the tooltips of each classes heal.

    I'd say that defilers are the best "pvp healers" in the game.

    I think by aoe heal they meant uruk heal. Not group heals but something than can potentionally heal others in an area without being grouped or having them selected to heal.
    I say Minis are the best healers. I think youre staring blindly towards the greater health of a Defiler here and forgets how many more survivability skills a Mini have compared, easily making up for the lack in health, which leaves us to compare heals and in that area a Minstrel is unrivaled.

    ...and if you didnt cut my quote you would see I continue on saying just that aswell and points to the RK healingstone, since I also figured he was limiting it to AoE healing to suit his agenda of trying to make it sound like Creeps have an advantage in so many areas, which of course I had to tune down for him to not make people confused about the truth.

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  9. #34
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Silkdawn, I can guarantee Defilers are better healers than minstrels or RK's. They have better survivablilty than both a minstrel and RK put together.

    I have a Ranked defiler, I'm constantly QQ'ing about how much easier it is to play him than my minstrel. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, PLEASE get rid of my DPS for the survivabilty, crit heals and HoT's of a defiler. PLEASE!

    Oh, and I consistently beat all freep classes on my defiler, whereas on my minstrel, I'm lucky to beat a creep, other than a BA. Even then a 1v1 with a R8-9 BA is up in the air.

    Edit - I also mean a ranked creep, from R7 and up, greenies don't count
    Last edited by RGilthanas; May 14 2010 at 12:40 AM.
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  10. #35
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Captains best freep healer in Moors. Just fyi for all those confused.
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  11. #36
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfectlotus View Post
    I think youre staring blindly towards the greater health of a Defiler here and forgets how many more survivability skills a Mini have compared, easily making up for the lack in health, which leaves us to compare heals and in that area a Minstrel is unrivaled.
    It's pretty damn hard to "stare blindly" at what's right in front of your face. Remember when I said there's alot of factors to what gives a side better healing? Well, morale, mitigation and avoidance (which all favor creepside) sure as hell is a few of them. When you or your target you're trying to heal are harder to kill then it in turn makes your heals more effective.

    What escape skills do mintrels have? Bubble and feign death... wow. So your argument is that when a minstrel is feigned death they can heal better? Or if they have a bubble up sucking away their power when being hit? I'd take the passive 3-4k more morale and higher avoidance and mits. When those uber cooldowns are gone then a defiler is STILL harder to kill.

    Like I said, defilers are better pvp healers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfectlotus View Post
    ...and if you didnt cut my quote...
    I cut it to clarify for others so, please don't get your knickers in a twist.

    Oh, and I just cut it again.
    Last edited by KillGore81; May 14 2010 at 01:12 AM.

  12. #37
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGilthanas View Post

    I have a Ranked defiler, I'm constantly QQ'ing about how much easier it is to play him than my minstrel. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, PLEASE get rid of my DPS for the survivabilty, crit heals and HoT's of a defiler. PLEASE!
    Champ can rock a defiler as long as hamstring doesn't miss.
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  13. #38

    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    I haven't taken my Freeps out into the Moores since Mirkwood went live. I can however say that I have been on the receiving end of enough Freep CC since Mirkwood went live that it has directed me here to note an imbalance that I perceive.

    With 4 out of 9 Freep classes having the ability to AE Stun/Mez/etc you are looking at about an average of about 10 Freeps in a raid that can in a worst case scenario lockdown a total of 50 targets at once. Yes I know this number can vary depending on how many of any class are currently in the raid AND that two or more Freeps can wind up CCing the same target AND pots can remove CC effects but if even a quarter, what the heck a fifth are hit your looking at 10 Creeps staring at a Grey skill bar while the Freeps target forward and rip the Creep raid apart.

    This doesn't take into account single target CC from Burgs, mini's, including the infamous Hunter Fear Arrows (gimme a break). And any Freep raid worth their weight in salt can effectively disrupt half a Creep raids ability to fight.

    As noted on the Leaderboards, the Freep on Landroval receive more Renown then Creeps earn infamy. In a ten day interval Freeps usually lead Creeps 7 out of 10 days, average results.

    I'm a raid leader. I've been leading raids for over 3 years. I am very well aware of the amount of CC Freeps have over Creeps and the adverse effects it has on their playing ability. And I'm also very well aware that while many Freeps also play Creeps most that I've spoken with recognize how much more powerful AE Stun/Mez/etc are then the Creeps ability to CC Freeps.
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  14. #39
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cajiga View Post
    I haven't taken my Freeps out into the Moores since Mirkwood went live.
    You should just stop right there seriously.
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  15. #40
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    Champ can rock a defiler as long as hamstring doesn't miss.
    That's true, and if fear misses as well or if that champ has fear pots, which I highly doubt he/she would.
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  16. #41
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Overtone View Post
    Creeps already have the best AOE slow in the game, the best AOE Fear in the game, and the best CC skill in the game (a.k.a. CJs en masse). Add to those benefits that Creeps also have the only AOE rez and the only AOE heal.

    Why in the world would do they need an AOE stun?
    best aoe slow? i don't really consider wte to be better to my lm's tar i'd say they are pretty even. both have strengths and weakness. tar is probably better defensively vs wte is better used offensively.

    defillers do have the best aoe fear since i can't think of any aoe fears freepside. though i do notice my defillers fear is resisted about 80% of the time including 16 times in a row yesterday.

    best cc in game aka en masse cj's. LOL yeah cuz freeps have such a shortage of cj's(creeps have 3 total skills that can cause a cj vs freeps having 3 skills from burgs<resettable> 2 from guards, + kick from captains can cause cj's (if traited for it) and bog lurkers. not to mention all the aoe stuns on freepside that case insane damage(ents,lightning from lms)

    only aoe rez -wrong again captains have a 2 target aoe rez if traited for it

    only aoe heal -so captains and minis don't have any aoe heals anymore?

  17. #42
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocatequil View Post
    Defiler fears are much more effective than AoE stuns in a group situation. A AoE stun could be manipulated by a number of classes (specifically burgs/guards) whereas the AoE fear does not trigger these events. In addition SI does not affect fear (afaik) so fear > stun. Add to this most freeps don't have fear pots (their own fault i know) this is much more powerful CC (especially considering the duration) compared to an AoE stun.
    ^^ This. And the OP is prob talking about CC and blowing up so much, because his 'main' creep is a freakin reaver and he's used to charging in and living. Now that he can't do that with with r6 defiler, he's sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by bambam21 View Post
    I think before any creep asks for any kind of buff for creep side they should go play their freep for a week or two first. Then decide if the creeps really need any kind of buff right now.

    Also by the OP's post he is pretty much saying that their is too much CC on freep side. He is saying most of the time his skills are just greyed out. Do you really think the best way to solve this problem would be to make it so both sides are greyed out instead of just the one?
    I am greyed out exploded just as fast or faster on my freep. I think we've just got some nasty cases of one-sided-itis going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfectlotus View Post
    ... but I understand youre looking for something thats truly an area heal here so I probably will have to settle with the RKs little healingstone....
    Call me crazy, but I believe that stone is group only as well. Things like Uruk heal are 100% bar none the best heals in the game. Period. End of story. Lets bump up Man heal to 15 min cooldown, 10K heal, and AoE. Hows that?

    Quote Originally Posted by thisisanewname View Post
    silly stuff that indicates you aren't hearing the conversation and are communicating with blinders on
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  18. #43
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    It's close enough to be considered the exact same thing. IMO anyway.

    If that's the case then creeps do have AOE, with the fear.

    IMO fear>mez, because less freeps would have delving pots for the fear vs vendor pots for mez/stun


    More on the main topic. I do not call for creeps nerfs, but to call for a pretty powerful buff when many fights can be very good right now, would lead to even a worse number break down then there is int he moors right now.

    Creeps may have limited AOE CC compared to freeps, but they have other options that help them greatly. Both sides are different, they have strengths and weaknesses, why is it that both sides always wants what the other side has?
    Last edited by ursinuspip73; May 14 2010 at 11:24 AM.

  19. #44
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by ursinuspip73 View Post
    Creeps may have limited AOE CC compared to freeps, but they have other options that help them greatly. Both sides are different, they have strengths and weaknesses, why is it that both sides always wants what the other side has?
    Because too many players are used to factions that are exactly the same except for cosmetics(black/white). Is it easier to balance? Sure. Is it more 'fair'? Certainly. Is it more boring? Absolutely.
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  20. #45
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfectlotus View Post
    You do realise that Burgs been able to stunlock with CJs and stuns forever while Wargs been skewed for just some months right? But all off a sudden you wanna make this to that Creeps have better CC? Creeps aint even close, Creeps have never been close in the CC department. Not even with the Wargs newfound love of CJs.
    Yes Silk. Check my Sig. As a Reaver, I'm fully aware of a Burg's stun-lock capabilities. LOL!

    The phrase en masse was key in my statement. With both Wargs and Weavers capable of on-demand CJs, Creeps easily have the advantage in this department on numerical account alone. Don't be a boy scout.

    And I actually strongly dispute the fact that Creeps are not close in the CC department. On a class per class comparison basis, you are correct. There is no par. However, we all know that FotM Wargs and Weavers abound in the Moors these days, and those two classes alone are stacked full of CC potential. My Freep burns through 20 mez pots per night. And those are used on what I can pot against when they are not on cd. Not to mention all the roots he gets hit with. My Reaver actually burns through less on average because he has Resilience.

    Quote Originally Posted by thisisanewname View Post
    best aoe slow? i don't really consider wte to be better to my lm's tar i'd say they are pretty even. both have strengths and weakness. tar is probably better defensively vs wte is better used offensively.
    WotE is easily the best AOE slow in the game. Firstly, because the AOE range is borked and it actually reaches far beyond it's stated tooltip range. Secondly, because it has a post-webbing effect that slows the opponents even after they are out of the web.

    lawl@Weavers that poo offensively!! Everybody knows Weaver poo is the first thing to drop when making for the big getaway.

    Quote Originally Posted by thisisanewname View Post
    only aoe rez -wrong again captains have a 2 target aoe rez if traited for it
    lawl@CaptainAOERezIfTraited

    Quote Originally Posted by thisisanewname View Post
    only aoe heal -so captains and minis don't have any aoe heals anymore?
    No they don't. They have group heals.
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  21. #46

    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffor View Post
    I wonder what Roflbark would sound like. Hmm...
    Like Scooby Doo snickering of course
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  22. #47
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Sorry but creeps dont need anymore than they have now.

    Come over and play a RK in heal mode in the moors for a week.

    2 wargs can kill me. Not a pack of wargs. Not a fellowship of wargs. 2

    1 warg can hit me from stealth and drop 1/2 my moral before it wears off. 2 and Im dead before the grey bar is gone.

    Both the war leader and the defiler take some serious focus fire to bring down. And they take insane amounts of focus fire to bring down if there are several of them out there healing one another.

    Now, you want to give my RK double his armor rating, double his resists, double his evade chance and 8-10k moral and you can have your AOE stuns.

    Creeps arent supose to be as strong as freeps. They strength is supose to be in there numbers. But, they are as strong as freeps. They have numbers advantage and teleporters. (I think you call em maps but I never used a map that magicly transports me where I want to go without walking there. It just shows you the path to walk/ride there.)

    And you guys may not have as much AOE stun capability as freeps but you guys are the kings of DOT's. A spider can spam his DOT's from what 30m and while moving. My RK has to get within 20m and has to stop moving and all the DOT skills on an RK are inductions. The hunter has to stop to apply his DOT and its not near as powerful as the BA's. And the BA's range is what 40m. Double my RK's.

    Were stronger in some areas and you are in others. And there are too many stuns in the moors now. Id hate to see a moors with more grey bar time than I and you ahve to deal with now.
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  23. #48
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfectlotus View Post
    AoE Heals. As a Mini I can mention 3 groupheals on top of my head and one more if we go with a certain ballad that increase ICMR greatly, but I understand youre looking for something thats truly an area heal here so I probably will have to settle with the RKs little healingstone. As before tho, Freeps by far outheals Creeps.
    The sigal of healing is limited to your fellowship. All RK heals are either single target or fellowship limited. If they were to make the RK's heals true AOE we could be a huge thorn in the creeps side from a healing basis.

    Imagine an RK with entwine fates up on a raid of freeps with a LM keeping them pumped full of power.

    For those that dont know the RK would take 10% of everyones damge upon himself at a 10% reduction. But, in turn all your skills are non interuptable. Its massively power hugry though. And if you werent limited to fellows you could bubble an entire raid.
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  24. #49
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    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by FatherDamien View Post
    The sigal of healing is limited to your fellowship. All RK heals are either single target or fellowship limited. If they were to make the RK's heals true AOE we could be a huge thorn in the creeps side from a healing basis.

    Imagine an RK with entwine fates up on a raid of freeps with a LM keeping them pumped full of power.

    For those that dont know the RK would take 10% of everyones damge upon himself at a 10% reduction. But, in turn all your skills are non interuptable. Its massively power hugry though. And if you werent limited to fellows you could bubble an entire raid.
    /droolssssssssssssss
    I LOVE RK heals soooooo much...wish rks went heals and minnies went dps out there!! bubbles every 30 seconds I believe? and for 8 seconds? you get multiple dev strikes, you get the opportunity to heal up with the HoTs before the 2nd one comes in...no in combat rezzes...but dont think there would be as much of a need for those if rks healed...

    Just so everyone knows, I LOVE minnies. Not bashing them in any way whatsoever, I just like rk heals more...

    ****...im a classist now....
    Last edited by aad0italian; May 15 2010 at 12:39 PM.

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    8,330

    Re: AE Stuns for Creeps?

    Honestly asking for anything creepside now on the forums is sort of the benchmark for being laughed at.
    There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them.


 

 
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