Ettenmoors

[Daec]

I actively play on 3 different servers, Ark is the only one where freeps seem to be having trouble....

Maybe its not the game.

[puvi]

key is to group up. The highlight of my night was ninja jumping into a crowd of creeps waiting on the drake to spawn from the second level in the delvings. The Drake spawned and points flowed on both sides......

Group up. I got plenty of dogs 1v1 tonight. the only one to take me down was two and that only because he got the jump on me....

[Fafoo]

On more than one occasion I've seen 6+ Freeps take a good 10-15 seconds to kill 1 BA or Reaver. Conversely you get just 2 Creeps (not even raid focus fire) on any Freep and they're dead in about 3 seconds. VT from a BA and DS from a Reaver is game over for pretty much any Freep in just 2 hits.

This goes back to the whole "you can have damage or you can have survivability" deal. That same group of freeps taking so long to kill a BA or a Reaver probably has MAYBE one person traited to maximize their damage.

The bigger thing I want to talk about is I see a lot of damage numbers going back and forth without reference to morale pools. A 20k Upshot on a 70k Reaver is less than 1/3 of his morale, and we're talking the upper limit of what Freeps can do here. A 10k Impale, 7-8k Vital Target, and whatever other skills Creeps have is over half of the morale pool of most Freeps. I see this brought up a lot, "Hunters can do 20k damage in one hit, Creeps can't, so Freeps must do more damage". The number itself may be larger, but it's all relative and relatively Creeps have a very large advantage in damage right now. I could concede some of your other points you make, but on this particular one I couldn't disagree more. If we start referring to damage in percentages of health pools instead of raw numbers I don't think it's even close.

It's also unfair to say that a Reaver can just hit the Impale button and it'll do 10k. Impale is NOT a single skill that hits that hard, in order to deal that maximum damage it's actually five different skills hit on the same target with Impale being the last one. It also needs to dev crit, but since we're talking about the highest damage output possible that doesn't really apply in this situation. Anyway, if we're talking about hitting five skills to deal that large a percentage of a person's morale pool then most freeps have the capability to match it fairly easily. 7-8k VTs don't seem to happen very often when freeps have full aud. My Champion still needs one more piece and the largest number I've been hit with recently from a high rank BA was a 6.7k dev crit. That being said, if 6.7k is half of your morale pool you're probably not well geared enough to go to the moors and still expect to do well.

I'm sure there's an elite echelon of players that are doing well, and the fact your example is a stealth class doesn't give me a lot of encouragement. Not to get off topic but I would love to see a video of that fight, I can't imagine what the Reaver was doing to suffer that fate. Regardless, the game is not well balanced if it takes the elite to win.

The burglar thing was just an example that came to mind from earlier in the day. I've seen just about every class being able to hold their own in 1v1s. It really doesn't take "the elite" to win fights, but you certainly can't walk out without reading your skills anymore. Putting slightly more than minimal effort in to learning the ins and outs of a class since the HD changes and getting some decent jewelry/LIs is required if you want to do well, and to be honest I think that's the way it should be. Especially considering how ungodly easy it is to gear this update.



Lastly I'd like to thank you for the coherent reply, it's much easier to respond to than a wall of text filled with more anger and crying than points of argument. I skipped over some of your responses, but I felt like they had already been addressed. Correct me if I glanced over one that needs more explanation.

[thunderchickn]

This goes back to the whole "you can have damage or you can have survivability" deal. That same group of freeps taking so long to kill a BA or a Reaver probably has MAYBE one person traited to maximize their damage.

I think the discrepancy is too large to be attributed to how people are traited. 2 Creaps can blow up a Freep in a couple seconds. A full fellowship of Freeps can't do the same.

It's also unfair to say that a Reaver can just hit the Impale button and it'll do 10k. Impale is NOT a single skill that hits that hard, in order to deal that maximum damage it's actually five different skills hit on the same target with Impale being the last one. It also needs to dev crit, but since we're talking about the highest damage output possible that doesn't really apply in this situation. Anyway, if we're talking about hitting five skills to deal that large a percentage of a person's morale pool then most freeps have the capability to match it fairly easily. 7-8k VTs don't seem to happen very often when freeps have full aud. My Champion still needs one more piece and the largest number I've been hit with recently from a high rank BA was a 6.7k dev crit. That being said, if 6.7k is half of your morale pool you're probably not well geared enough to go to the moors and still expect to do well.

A lot of this is truth. I recently learned that Impale needs the bleeds to do huge damage, but "don't let the Reaver stack bleeds" isn't realistic for most classes. They have 1 pot to use that won't even hit the bleed if the Reaver stacks up right, then if they're lucky 1 class skill to remove a condition as well. I have a condition clear every 5 seconds so I can do okay depending on how they are stacked up, but for the most part the bleeds are going to get stacked if the Reaver wants them to.

As to your VT numbers, even a 6k crit is a much larger chunk of a Freeps morale pool than nearly anything a Freep can do to a Creep. Even 5k, which we could probably include a lot more skills that Creeps have is a large chunk. Losing 30% of your health in a pretty routine crit for the Creep DPS classes is very nasty. Freeps simply can't do that kind of damage relative to the morale bars they have to face.

The burglar thing was just an example that came to mind from earlier in the day. I've seen just about every class being able to hold their own in 1v1s. It really doesn't take "the elite" to win fights, but you certainly can't walk out without reading your skills anymore. Putting slightly more than minimal effort in to learning the ins and outs of a class since the HD changes and getting some decent jewelry/LIs is required if you want to do well, and to be honest I think that's the way it should be. Especially considering how ungodly easy it is to gear this update.

I'm glad you brought this up. I have tried to remain objective, and speak generally in my posts. Clearly as a Warden I don't have nearly as much trouble as other classes, so I've tried to just speak generally. Personally though I completely agree with what you say here. You should not be able to just jump into the Moors and insta win. PvP is a whole different beast from PvE, requiring a separate play style. I think right now Creeps are much closer to being able to simply jump in and insta win than Freeps simply due to their massive morale pools and insane burst. Once I get home after Christmas I actually want to hop on my R6 Reaver that has no store bought anything or really much time put into it at all and see what I can do. Comparing that to my well geared and attention hogging R10 Warden will be interesting.

Small tangent here. I believe that damage reductions are done multiplicatively. If this is not true anymore, completely ignore this paragraph lol. This hasn't really applied since we used "melee defence, ranged defence, tactical defence" plus the specific "fire mitigation, etc" which was pre ROI I think. Anyways, how I think that worked was multiplicative. I.e. if you have 30% reduction in damage taken and 30% reduction in Orc-Craft/Fell-Wrought Damage the total damage you're taking is (1-.3)(1-.3) = .49 = 49% damage taken. So max Audacity cuts the damage you're taking about in half, give or take some other damage types. That's pretty good. Compare to base Audacity R1 which gives 10% reduction and you get (1-.1)(1-.1) = .81 = 81% damage taken. So from base R1 Audacity to max R19 Audacity you're taking 49/81 = 60% less damage. Combine that with another 6500 crit defence for grabbing a couple 2-piece bonuses. That is far more significant than I first thought, so you're right once all Audacity pieces can be acquired it's a significant boost to survivability. While I'm sitting on the lower end of that 60%, the fact that maxed Freeps are still seeing 10k crits is disconcerting.

Lastly I'd like to thank you for the coherent reply, it's much easier to respond to than a wall of text filled with more anger and crying than points of argument. I skipped over some of your responses, but I felt like they had already been addressed. Correct me if I glanced over one that needs more explanation.

Right back atcha! You've convinced me to come a little bit in towards the middle from the far right, I hope I've convinced you the same. What it comes down to is what Cintona says, take time to get better. Practice against those classes you have trouble with. Comb through your skill descriptions looking for new combos or advantages. Talk to players of the classes you don't quite understand. Take the time to understand your opponents and you'll be a much better PvPer in the process. All of this can help the current Moors be a less scary place for little Hobbits like myself, and at the end of the day I still expect to see a slight toning down of damage on both sides, Creeps just a bit more so if only those top end crits. I don't want to see a Creep nerf, I really don't. I like being slightly scared of seeing a Creep lol. I like not knowing if I can kill them. I just don't like an unlucky crit against me ending the fight before it can begin. I think a big lucky crit should give you an advantage for the rest of the fight, put you ahead of your opponent. Not simply end it in a few seconds. Heck a couple of the fights me and you had I was at 50% primed for a Dev Strike within 5 seconds. I know, low Audacity, but still I have 5-10k more morale than most any other Freep class. Even if I last 60% longer that fight is over in 8 seconds.

For me I need to practice more (and I need to see more Creeps soloing for that to happen!). Again as Cintona says if it's too easy you're not getting better. I like that it's not too easy for Freeps any more. There's a quote I like that applies perfectly to the Ettenmoors right now: A smooth sea never made a skilled sailor.

[Daec]

I think the discrepancy is too large to be attributed to how people are traited. 2 Creaps can blow up a Freep in a couple seconds. A full fellowship of Freeps can't do the same.



A lot of this is truth. I recently learned that Impale needs the bleeds to do huge damage, but "don't let the Reaver stack bleeds" isn't realistic for most classes. They have 1 pot to use that won't even hit the bleed if the Reaver stacks up right, then if they're lucky 1 class skill to remove a condition as well. I have a condition clear every 5 seconds so I can do okay depending on how they are stacked up, but for the most part the bleeds are going to get stacked if the Reaver wants them to.

As to your VT numbers, even a 6k crit is a much larger chunk of a Freeps morale pool than nearly anything a Freep can do to a Creep. Even 5k, which we could probably include a lot more skills that Creeps have is a large chunk. Losing 30% of your health in a pretty routine crit for the Creep DPS classes is very nasty. Freeps simply can't do that kind of damage relative to the morale bars they have to face.



I'm glad you brought this up. I have tried to remain objective, and speak generally in my posts. Clearly as a Warden I don't have nearly as much trouble as other classes, so I've tried to just speak generally. Personally though I completely agree with what you say here. You should not be able to just jump into the Moors and insta win. PvP is a whole different beast from PvE, requiring a separate play style. I think right now Creeps are much closer to being able to simply jump in and insta win than Freeps simply due to their massive morale pools and insane burst. Once I get home after Christmas I actually want to hop on my R6 Reaver that has no store bought anything or really much time put into it at all and see what I can do. Comparing that to my well geared and attention hogging R10 Warden will be interesting.

Small tangent here. I believe that damage reductions are done multiplicatively. If this is not true anymore, completely ignore this paragraph lol. This hasn't really applied since we used "melee defence, ranged defence, tactical defence" plus the specific "fire mitigation, etc" which was pre ROI I think. Anyways, how I think that worked was multiplicative. I.e. if you have 30% reduction in damage taken and 30% reduction in Orc-Craft/Fell-Wrought Damage the total damage you're taking is (1-.3)(1-.3) = .49 = 49% damage taken. So max Audacity cuts the damage you're taking about in half, give or take some other damage types. That's pretty good. Compare to base Audacity R1 which gives 10% reduction and you get (1-.1)(1-.1) = .81 = 81% damage taken. So from base R1 Audacity to max R19 Audacity you're taking 49/81 = 60% less damage. Combine that with another 6500 crit defence for grabbing a couple 2-piece bonuses. That is far more significant than I first thought, so you're right once all Audacity pieces can be acquired it's a significant boost to survivability. While I'm sitting on the lower end of that 60%, the fact that maxed Freeps are still seeing 10k crits is disconcerting.



Right back atcha! You've convinced me to come a little bit in towards the middle from the far right, I hope I've convinced you the same. What it comes down to is what Cintona says, take time to get better. Practice against those classes you have trouble with. Comb through your skill descriptions looking for new combos or advantages. Talk to players of the classes you don't quite understand. Take the time to understand your opponents and you'll be a much better PvPer in the process. All of this can help the current Moors be a less scary place for little Hobbits like myself, and at the end of the day I still expect to see a slight toning down of damage on both sides, Creeps just a bit more so if only those top end crits. I don't want to see a Creep nerf, I really don't. I like being slightly scared of seeing a Creep lol. I like not knowing if I can kill them. I just don't like an unlucky crit against me ending the fight before it can begin. I think a big lucky crit should give you an advantage for the rest of the fight, put you ahead of your opponent. Not simply end it in a few seconds. Heck a couple of the fights me and you had I was at 50% primed for a Dev Strike within 5 seconds. I know, low Audacity, but still I have 5-10k more morale than most any other Freep class. Even if I last 60% longer that fight is over in 8 seconds.

For me I need to practice more (and I need to see more Creeps soloing for that to happen!). Again as Cintona says if it's too easy you're not getting better. I like that it's not too easy for Freeps any more. There's a quote I like that applies perfectly to the Ettenmoors right now: A smooth sea never made a skilled sailor.

Glorno, you're simply flat out wrong on your issue with damage.

My on my warg (full aud) i have been hit with 29k upshots from hunters, with the average being around 20k. I've been hit with a 24k lightning from an lm, 15k flashing blades and coup de grace (each skill). On my BA (16 aud) i've been hit with a 20k shocking words (not even an rk's hardest hitting skill).

The fact is, the majority arkenstone freeps have taken no effort to try and become at the very least competent at their classes. They were farmed in RoR (when they had a significant upper hand) and now that the gap has closed somewhat they will continue to be farmed until they get out of the woe is me creeps are OP mindset and basically, learn to play.

I've watched a 13man raid of freeps fight a full 24 man craid, consisting of ranks that dwarf anything arkenstone has ever seen and hold their own. While both sides got kills, it was impossible to wipe the fraid.

[Zanwic]

I, personally, have found that I can beat almost everyone (aside from Bolash and Blulum) in a 1v1 if I use some CDs. However, this almost entirely relies on that the fact that impale doesn't crit. I can have a huge amount of momentum in a spar and be winning 80% health to 20% health and immediately die from a impale. The hard thing about this is, is that I'm having a tremendously hard time trying to kite reavers to keep them from getting that 4 bleed impale. With all their stun pots and brands and anti-slow skills its really hard to do any sort of crowd control on them which makes spars for a burglar oh so much harder. I'd love to think that going all dps would totally change the game for me and hope to kill things before they can even touch me. But in reality, taking down a reaver with great kiting capabilities and massive burst would undoubtedly be able to win if they played like they wanted to; impale would crit eventually.

Creeps have the advantage (in 1v1s)... however, by not very much at all. I can see when I finish getting full audacity and that last set bonus I want from the BB jewelry that I will do more than just fine out in the moors. The only real problem, in my opinion, is that a huge amount of the fights out here now rely on getting a crit and that decides who wins or loses. So honestly, stack as much crit d as you can and hope for the best.

*Edited because I always catch my mistakes after I post*

[Draithenz1971]

I, personally, have found that I can beat almost everyone (aside from Bolash and Blulum) in a 1v1 if I use some CDs. However, this almost entirely relies on that the fact that impale doesn't crit. I can have a huge amount of momentum in a spar and be winning 80% health to 20% health and immediately die from a impale. The hard thing about this is, is that I'm having a tremendously hard time trying to kite reavers to keep them from getting that 4 bleed impale. With all their stun pots and brands and anti-slow skills its really hard to do any sort of crowd control on them which makes spars for a burglar oh so much harder. I'd love to think that going all dps would totally change the game for me and hope to kill things before they can even touch me. But in reality, taking down a reaver with great kiting capabilities and massive burst would undoubtedly be able to win if they played like they wanted to; impale would crit eventually.

Creeps have the advantage (in 1v1s)... however, by not very much at all. I can see when I finish getting full audacity and that last set bonus I want from the BB jewelry that I will do more than just fine out in the moors. The only real problem, in my opinion, is that a huge amount of the fights out here now rely on getting a crit and that decides who wins or loses. So honestly, stack as much crit d as you can and hope for the best.

*Edited because I always catch my mistakes after I post*

I have seen both Bolash and Blulum play style. Not sure any on Freep side can match. Ashart and Pet Me are in the same list if i am correct. This is unreal and i am just getting more pissed off at the game for the inballance regardless of how much I try. Raids from 7 to 15 are getting chewed up by Creeps with ease. Go to far out and wargs in there new awesome improve stealthness hit for1 to 6 K of Damage then pop into stealth and flee while getting hit on like it was nothing. To make it worse there normally 3 or 4 wargs hitting at once which means death or near to it for some Freeps like me. Then if we dont charge we get out ranged and picked off. This is just becoming all too agrivating to continue taking to long. Well done Turbine you created a Creep Heaven. wonder if they will continue paying that cash when there are fewer Freeps willing to come to the Moors to feed them points.

[motumbo]

I, personally, have found that I can beat almost everyone (aside from Bolash and Blulum) in a 1v1 if I use some CDs. However, this almost entirely relies on that the fact that impale doesn't crit. I can have a huge amount of momentum in a spar and be winning 80% health to 20% health and immediately die from a impale. The hard thing about this is, is that I'm having a tremendously hard time trying to kite reavers to keep them from getting that 4 bleed impale. With all their stun pots and brands and anti-slow skills its really hard to do any sort of crowd control on them which makes spars for a burglar oh so much harder. I'd love to think that going all dps would totally change the game for me and hope to kill things before they can even touch me. But in reality, taking down a reaver with great kiting capabilities and massive burst would undoubtedly be able to win if they played like they wanted to; impale would crit eventually.

Creeps have the advantage (in 1v1s)... however, by not very much at all. I can see when I finish getting full audacity and that last set bonus I want from the BB jewelry that I will do more than just fine out in the moors. The only real problem, in my opinion, is that a huge amount of the fights out here now rely on getting a crit and that decides who wins or loses. So honestly, stack as much crit d as you can and hope for the best.

*Edited because I always catch my mistakes after I post*

Now, zan, I noticed when we had our spar a couple days back after I was trying to make a better tank build and failed.. that I could barely hit you at all, I think you evaded 2 of my impales ( and most of my other attacks) .. I would love to fight you with my glass cannon build and see if anything changes... your one of the few people I've had a lot of trouble with sparring, I'd like to figure out why if u don't mind

[Zanwic]

Now, zan, I noticed when we had our spar a couple days back after I was trying to make a better tank build and failed.. that I could barely hit you at all, I think you evaded 2 of my impales ( and most of my other attacks) .. I would love to fight you with my glass cannon build and see if anything changes... your one of the few people I've had a lot of trouble with sparring, I'd like to figure out why if u don't mind

For sure! However, that was the first day I was trying out blue line, which is super super OP against reavers and BAs. I think red line is more fun and more well rounded for all different classes so thats probably my go to trait line now.

Draithen, none of us are geared. When u13 comes with 1A it'll be more than good enough to push US past OP. Already a few of the classes (Captains, Healy Mins, good blue line wardens) are impossible to kill 1v1. Don't call for nerf to creeps please, its fine how it is. In time when we are geared better Ashurt, Blulum, Bolash, and Petme will all be reasonably beatable.

[SinisterSledge]

Zan... Ya know over the last few yr's I have always enjoyed sparring good burg's. I was just telling Cint that I havent beaten your head inn in a very long time, maybe close to a yr. Zanwic I still believe your boss out here. Tks for that spar and Its hard to keep up with you on mouse turning when it laggs like it did... /BOW

[Sizzy_the_sock]

So guys i have a question - I heard ppl think to run a yellowline cappy would be easy moder. What is your opinion to that?

[Fafoo]

So guys i have a question - I heard ppl think to run a yellowline cappy would be easy moder. What is your opinion to that?

Yellow line captain is the new blue line Warden. You play it if you really don't like dying...ever.

[1Guitar_Boy1]

Yellow line captain is the new blue line Warden. You play it if you really don't like dying...ever.

......ever......

[1Guitar_Boy1]

For sure! However, that was the first day I was trying out blue line, which is super super OP against reavers and BAs. I think red line is more fun and more well rounded for all different classes so thats probably my go to trait line now.

I'd like to get a few spars in off you soon if that's okay Zanwic. There were only a few freeps I was comfortable with sparring. Yourself and Odensraven were probably the best I have sparred. You either won by that lucky crit, or vice-versa.
So... yeah! We should try and set up some spar circles.

[Zanwic]

I'd like to get a few spars in off you soon if that's okay Zanwic. There were only a few freeps I was comfortable with sparring. Yourself and Odensraven were probably the best I have sparred. You either won by that lucky crit, or vice-versa.
So... yeah! We should try and set up some spar circles.

For sure, that would be fun. I enjoy spar circles. Send me a tell on your freep because I'm trying to keep myself in PvE land for a couple days while I get these last Jewelry pieces that I need.

[zona52.net]

Now, zan, I noticed when we had our spar a couple days back after I was trying to make a better tank build and failed.. that I could barely hit you at all, I think you evaded 2 of my impales ( and most of my other attacks) .. I would love to fight you with my glass cannon build and see if anything changes... your one of the few people I've had a lot of trouble with sparring, I'd like to figure out why if u don't mind

we never finalized a spar .. always interrupt us

[TheTruthinator]

we never finalized a spar .. always interrupt us

No spar only zerg for you. enjoy.

[zona52.net]

No spar only zerg for you. enjoy.

[Fafoo]

Obvious photoshop...LMs can't use shields.

[TheTruthinator]

Selfie

Why are you posting pictures of yourself when we all knew that was likely how you look

Get on my level

[Fafoo]

First post of the New Year! Hope to have a lot of fun fights with you all in 2014

[TheTruthinator]

I have seen both Bolash and Blulum play style. Not sure any on Freep side can match. Ashart and Pet Me are in the same list if i am correct. This is unreal and i am just getting more pissed off at the game for the inballance regardless of how much I try. Raids from 7 to 15 are getting chewed up by Creeps with ease. Go to far out and wargs in there new awesome improve stealthness hit for1 to 6 K of Damage then pop into stealth and flee while getting hit on like it was nothing. To make it worse there normally 3 or 4 wargs hitting at once which means death or near to it for some Freeps like me. Then if we dont charge we get out ranged and picked off. This is just becoming all too agrivating to continue taking to long. Well done Turbine you created a Creep Heaven. wonder if they will continue paying that cash when there are fewer Freeps willing to come to the Moors to feed them points.

Only person that pvp's in lotro who still legitimately thinks freeps are underpowered in 12.1. Arkenstone freeps represent!

Fraid of 12 I would most like to fight:

Craigus
Ballblitz
Drendolith
Drakari
Verzex
Lylnn
Aelvain
Belegnost
Adanamar
Gellour
Heartoffire
Nimitar

[thunderchickn]

How's the solo action? Are people venturing out on their own now or do you still pretty much need a group to do something? It seemed to be like that before Christmas.

I'm back from vacation but I can't play til next week. Waiting on a new SSD!

[ArkenstoneCreeper]

How's the solo action? Are people venturing out on their own now or do you still pretty much need a group to do something? It seemed to be like that before Christmas.

I'm back from vacation but I can't play til next week. Waiting on a new SSD!

Depends on the time of day. I tend to be on my creep quite often and I know that there are a couple of times when it's alright to solo. It also depends on the freeps, it seems to me that freeps are too afraid to walk out of GV without a group, even if it is to turn in quests at ost. So I suppose for the most part, group action seems to be most prevalent, hopefully until most freeps get their full audacity.

[thunderchickn]

Ah okay, solo always has been my favorite way to play the Moors. I hope to find some other roamers when I'm able to get back in game.