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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    I wish drop pulls could be removed from the game.

    I would like to see all the npcs in a keep come to defend the tyrant once he is attacked. Obviously not the roaming npcs outside of the keep though.

    I'm just sick of having to watch a keep every two minutes to see if its been drop pulled. Flipping keeps should be a bit harder than what it is now. Give better rewards to freeps for it but make creeps/freeps take them correctly.

    Please turbine get rid of this feature in the game.
    Seanie

  2. #2
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    Apr 2007
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    12,146

    Re: Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    Quote Originally Posted by LegOverLass View Post
    I wish drop pulls could be removed from the game.

    I would like to see all the npcs in a keep come to defend the tyrant once he is attacked. Obviously not the roaming npcs outside of the keep though.

    I'm just sick of having to watch a keep every two minutes to see if its been drop pulled. Flipping keeps should be a bit harder than what it is now. Give better rewards to freeps for it but make creeps/freeps take them correctly.

    Please turbine get rid of this feature in the game.
    I believe keeps are a means to an end. NOT the end.

    If an undefended keep flips....so what>? Flip it back if you REALLY need it to be your color.

    I'm in favour of drop takes because they can provide a CHANCE for the underdog to get a foothold and hopefully use the keep to get some sort of defense going rather than hugging one-shots.

    Keeps should be, IMHO, a tool to encourage PvMP. Not the goal of PvMP.

    I'd rather kill one creep than flip the entire map blue. And when freeps are outnumbered if by flipping a keep allows for more freep vs creep fighting then I'm all for any way to flip it.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    If it was the underdog doing it all the time I would agree.

    The problem is that even when one side is completely outnumbered the side with the most numbers still drop pulls. The defence of the keep never takes place because the tyrant is dead before you can map/horse to it. The best fights are trying to take keeps or defending them. I just think drop pulls take these fights out of the equasion.

    I would much prefer the keeps to removed completely or just make it so drop pulls cant take place.

    Small group fights dont need a keep behind them. Out Posts especially with the number of Freep NPC's are enough if your slightly outnumbered. But that depends on whether it is trully a fight you want is it not?
    Seanie

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    3,652

    Re: Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    Defended (by pcs) keeps should be harder to take, but if you do not watch and defend you keep, then you deserve to lose it.

  5. #5
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    Re: Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    What you refer to as "Drop Pulls" is, imo, an exploit of the game's system.

    For those who may not know, it is when a player in a group runs through the npcs, thus 'pulling' all their aggro, then drops group when he gets far enough in - almost inside the cg/tyrant room - and dies.

    This 'bugs out' the npc's whose aggro he held while the rest of the group ran up behind him. They may get a bit of aggro from local npc's, but nothing compared to the devastating punishment they would have endured had the other guy remained in group and passed the aggregate npc aggro to them.

    This is tricking/cheating the system in place to achieve an otherwise completely implausible event and outcome. If the npc's did not have to obey the existing aggro programming, to avoid crashing the game or server, they would NEVER run back past all those enemies as if they could not see them or as if they were not there.

    That is why I consider this an exploit of the game system. It takes little or no skill to take a keep in this manner, just drop, pull, then res, then pull the cg/tyrant, then maybe die again, then res and finish off the keep.

    There are many ways of dealing with this type of exploit, but it requires time and programming. One way would be to set up real doors and gates that have to be beat down while being defended by the opposition.

    I do hope they find a way to deal with this, because it is not in the spirit of the game to be resorting to hacks and exploits like this. It rewards players for using exploits, instead of rewarding them for good gaming.

  6. #6
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    Jun 2008
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    103

    Re: Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Thane9 View Post
    I believe keeps are a means to an end. NOT the end.

    If an undefended keep flips....so what>? Flip it back if you REALLY need it to be your color.

    I'm in favour of drop takes because they can provide a CHANCE for the underdog to get a foothold and hopefully use the keep to get some sort of defense going rather than hugging one-shots.

    Keeps should be, IMHO, a tool to encourage PvMP. Not the goal of PvMP.

    I'd rather kill one creep than flip the entire map blue. And when freeps are outnumbered if by flipping a keep allows for more freep vs creep fighting then I'm all for any way to flip it.
    I dont agree here. The NPCs are meant for the stronger side to get some good fights. If you outnumber the enemy attack him where he has NPC-support.
    The best battles I had so far where all about keeps, sometimes we fought for TR for 1-2 hours until we took it before MoM.
    On Landroval, exploiting the keeps is accepted by both sides. We seldom have real keep battles there (at least more seldom than on other servers I play). People rank more slowly beacause they run around all the time to gank an outnumbered foe instead of going for keeps and getting battles.
    woops, I deleted my sig

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
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    553

    Re: Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    Agreed. Eliminate the ability to drop-pull keeps. Simple solution is to require that all NPCs be killed before a keep is able to be flipped. It might require NPC reset times to be adjusted, but this probably wouldn't take too much effort for the devs to change.
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  8. #8

    Re: Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    i agree drop pulls should not be used, i like the idea that you have to kill all the npcs before you take a keep, but this just wouldnt work unless npcs balance out with the actual numbers in the moors at the time....say there are 15-20 freeps on and 40-50 creeps on...how are you suppose to flip an entire keep with less numbers...you will get rolled everytime..you have to even up the odds with more them just the silly buff. whatever group is short should have more npcs. and the map wouldnt be 1 color 90 percent of the time
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  9. #9
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    Re: Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    Sounds like some servers need better scouts.
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  10. #10
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    Jun 2008
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    Re: Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    Completely agree.

    Like Seanee said, it's not just the outnumbered side that's doing this. I've seen it done on two servers on both freep and creep side, and it always makes me both sad and laugh a little when I enter a keep only to see all the first floor NPCs pouring back down the stairs and resetting. Hell, even groups that fight their way up to the CG/Tyrant room sometimes drop-pull the CG/Tyrant. Again, both sad and amusing to see a group of players balled up in a corner beating on an NPC while all the nearby NPCs look on uninterestedly because the warg/burg/whatever that originally aggroed them disappeared.

    Dasein's solution seems the simplest to me, and the mechanic is already in place with the four Forochel camps.

    As for the "you need to keep a better eye on things/if you lose it, you deserve it" attitudes: Seanee isn't complaining about people flipping keeps, he's complaining about groups feeling the need to exploit to flip keeps. If you don't see a problem with that, then all I can say is that enjoyed killing you while you were using the infinite care package exploit in Modern Warfare 2. (Most common defense to that action: "It's the game company's fault for faulty coding, not ours for taking advantage of faulty coding.")

  11. #11
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    Re: Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton View Post
    Sounds like some servers need better scouts.
    Because you can really keep up with a fully mapped raid of creeps on horses
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  12. #12
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    Re: Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    Because you can really keep up with a fully mapped raid of creeps on horses
    Horses are just as effective as Maps I'm afraid.... don't know why you bothered to enter this thread and post the above as its has no bearing on the thread topic.


    I, too, agree that Keep taking should be made a little more difficult... nothing like watching a CG/Tyrant slain as the remaining NPCs in his room stand there oblivious.

  13. #13
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    Nov 2007
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    Re: Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    Because you can really keep up with a fully mapped raid of creeps on horses
    For the last frickin' time... CREEP RAIDS DO NOT MAP ANYWHERE BUT GRAMS.

    Any creep raid leader that tells his raid to map somewhere will end up with a strung out line of creeps from one end of the map to the other. For full raid mobility, horses >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maps. Creep raids RUN everywhere.
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  14. #14

    Re: Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    Drop pulls are fine and are currently the ONLY way the side with fewer numbers is going to have a chance to flip a keep. If you want the keep back, take it.
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  15. #15
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    Re: Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    Quote Originally Posted by AroJay View Post
    For the last frickin' time... CREEP RAIDS DO NOT MAP ANYWHERE BUT GRAMS.

    Any creep raid leader that tells his raid to map somewhere will end up with a strung out line of creeps from one end of the map to the other. For full raid mobility, horses >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maps. Creep raids RUN everywhere.
    And to anyone who believes this I have a lovely bridge to sell you.

    ---

    Anyhow my point is the keeps should serve as nothing more than a population balancing tool. IF the side withOUT the numbers can get a keep...NO MATTER HOW they get it, then it can help PvMP have better fights.

    If the side with the numbers is drop pulling it's just lazyness, but it's really not a big deal. So what if they flip an undefended keep? They get some DP? Really? it doesn't affect gameplay. They would've taken it anyhow, so what's it matter? Basically at that point it's just a PvE argument. And frankly I don't give a rats behind about ANYTHING PvE related that happens in the moors.

    Is it "lame"? Perhaps. But does it affect PvMP gameplay? No.

    I'm all for ANY mechanic, bug, exploit, ANYTHING that offers more and better opportunities for PvMP to occur. And in a day where killing is so fast that even the smallest population imbalance can be VERY significant, I can fully support the ability to drop pull as a viable tool to "getting something going" for the underdog.
    Last edited by Thane9; May 07 2010 at 12:36 PM.
    [FONT=Tahoma][COLOR=#ffffff][COLOR=red][FONT=Tahoma][B][COLOR=darkorchid]Second Marshal[/COLOR] Luc Brandenbuck[/B][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=#a9a9a9][FONT=Tahoma] ~[B]Battlemaster[/B]~
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  16. #16
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    Re: Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    Quote Originally Posted by SeigneurDude View Post
    What you refer to as "Drop Pulls" is, imo, an exploit of the game's system.
    Back when people would drop/HIPS pull inside private instances, it was confirmed by devs that doing it in public spaces such as the moors was not an exploit.
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  17. #17
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    Mar 2010
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    Re: Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    I know that this "lets avoid all the NPCs except the boss" thing is annoying to some people. But I see lots of other, much more important problems in the moors. In the end, I think this technique is not a big problem at all:

    - both sides can do it without problems
    - it does only really work when there are no defenders or when numbers are too different
    - when there are no defenders or numbers too different, a keep will fall anyway
    - a lot of people seem to like it (as they do it)


    I would like to see the NPCs helping their boss when he starts crying, because I find it annoying that the keep boss is fighting, I can hear him yelling for help, his officers stand some meters away from him doing nothing.. but there are at least a hundred more important problems in the moors.

  18. #18
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    Re: Keep Taking, Drop Pulls

    Quote Originally Posted by DorianFalkenmond View Post
    I know that this "lets avoid all the NPCs except the boss" thing is annoying to some people. But I see lots of other, much more important problems in the moors. In the end, I think this technique is not a big problem at all:

    - both sides can do it without problems
    - it does only really work when there are no defenders or when numbers are too different
    - when there are no defenders or numbers too different, a keep will fall anyway
    - a lot of people seem to like it (as they do it)


    I would like to see the NPCs helping their boss when he starts crying, because I find it annoying that the keep boss is fighting, I can hear him yelling for help, his officers stand some meters away from him doing nothing.. but there are at least a hundred more important problems in the moors.
    This sums it up perfectly to me.

    It's just not a "problem" with respect to PvMP.

    Would I support it being fixed? Probably.

    But I'd rather see one of a million other things get looked at first.
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