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  1. #26

    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeppelinCobalt View Post
    1. I noticed that all the debuffs Defilers get seem a bit powerful. Maybe lower the durations and/or extend the cooldowns?

    2. Maybe lower rez CD to 10s?
    1. Disease pots do wonders! :P

    2. Sure, I dont currently trait for the rez right now and having to wait 60 second intervals is annoying.
    Last edited by TheCrusher; Apr 20 2010 at 03:36 PM.

  2. #27
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    @Narlinde:

    You have atleast 6+ L65s that are all raid ready or close to raid ready. If you don't want to heal, pick one of your damage classes and play it. There is no reason, NO reason to complain about healing with the characters you can easily choose to play instead. =\

    I play Creepside a lot, yes. But you'll never ever hear me complain about having to heal. I will gladly play any of my characters in the Moors if asked by the raid leader, I play to have fun and help others have fun. I know what my characters can do, and what they should be doing. And if you don't enjoy playing your minstrel which was originally designed as a healing class, you can choose a different one. You never seemed to have a problem before minstrels ever got WS, but now some reason you think your class would be useless without it?

    You accused me of being completely biased to Creepside. This is NOT true. I have stated a few times already that Freeps gaining Signature and Elite status along with +Health and +Armour and maybe some other things is good. This would not force ANYONE to grind anything more on their Freeps, though you're freep (in PVP zones only) would be more powerful with them.
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  3. #28
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrusher View Post
    1. Disease pots do wonders! :P

    2. Sure, I dont currently trait for the rez right now and having to wait 60 second intervals is annoying.
    Yes, but sadly you can use 3 Diseases while Freep's pot is a 30s CD. :P

    Granted, LMs can clear this, and should be fully expected too in groups. So there is that...
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  4. #29

    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Apologies if I wasn't as clear as I intended...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWhiteHawk View Post
    So Narlinde says minstrels need their dps and you say minstrels need more dps? That is like a lore master saying, "We need more cc and damage."
    While I did say that I need more DPS, what I meant was, 'more than I get normally, when I am not in war speech' or to put it more plainly, when I am solo or trying to get back to my raid, I need the DPS that war speech gives me, which is more than I get out of war speech. In other words, I am not saying I need more DPS than I currently have. I did however, say that it would be nice to have more survivability on line with creep healing classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWhiteHawk View Post
    When I am on my war leader I usually get zerged and targeted in maybe the same time you stated you do, if a certain group of people are out its almost as soon as I go to heal the first person being targeted
    Let's consider what you said here. Zerged and targeted. You recognize that it takes a concerted effort from a sizable group of Freeps to put you out of the fight. You have no problem taking DPS off of a minstrel though, even though you know full well it doesn't take a group of creeps working together to pull down a minstrel, quite the contrary...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWhiteHawk View Post
    I can't count how many times I have beaten a bigger force with just a couple people and a healing class actually healing.
    And I can't count how many times a smaller group of creeps has completely dominated a larger group of freeps, even with a minstrel healing, loremaster rooting, champs aoe-ing, and tarball tactics on - why? Well easy - kill the minstrels, kill the rest of the group. How hard is it to kill a minstrel? It's trivial.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWhiteHawk View Post
    Just because they people you group with probably lack skills to make them efficient players doesn't mean you "need" more dps, you just want more dps.
    Again, my apologies for stating the word 'more', when I meant to say 'I need warspeech, because when running solo I need the DPS it gives me, because without it, my life expectancy against even a single creep is insignificant'. I am pretty sure the well geared out end game freeps I play with on a regular bases are skilled veterans and know what they're doing, so I won't even respond to this comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWhiteHawk View Post
    When freeps are playing good minstrels are hard to take down
    With all due respect, I completely disagree. Even when freeps are playing their absolute best, like a PvMP kinship on raid night, an equal size group of creeps will absolutely dominate and steamroll the freeps, and the minstrel is (and should be) the first one to die. I don't play on your server, so I guess I can't really state you are wrong here, but on my server your above quote doesn't hold true at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheWhiteHawk View Post
    You aren't alone there as a healer, that is why there are support classes out there on each side.
    My point, my whole point, was that minstrels do not need warspeech DPS when they're in a raid - it is not at all needed when they are surrounded by DPS or support classes - My entire point was that they do need the DPS when they're solo, in other words, when they're trying to get back to the raid or just out there having fun looking for a fight. I again apologize if that wasn't clear from what I wrote before. I am not trying to disrespect your opinion, but explain my position.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWhiteHawk View Post
    Creep cjs are horrible unless you get off a couple of the 5 or 6 man ones but it is rare you actually will see creeps try to pull that off in amongst an actual fight.
    I am not qualified to do a line by line comparison for freep FMs vs. creep WBMs, but a smaller CJ is pretty weak on both sides. The point I was trying to make, you made quite well for me - the concept of the conjunction is to demonstrate a coordinated attack against an opponent, with effect increasing as coordination increases in a group. As a group weapon, they are without a doubt the most iconic, cornerstone events in this entire game, and I think they should absolutely be part of the fight - but no one is using them for what they're meant for - they are being used as convenient greybar skill to nuke someone from orbit, and that's just pitiful. With damage mitigation during the CJ, it would mean that yes, you would have to practice those patterns and get off one of the good ones. That doesn't sound game breaking, does it?
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  5. #30
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeppelinCobalt View Post
    These are my thoughts of what should be "Improved", you don't have to agree with it, but feel free to share your thoughts as well.


    Conjunctions:

    1. Change Conjunctions to be effected by Diminishing Returns OR
    2. Change Conjunction Immunity to prevent Conjunction Knockdown for the entire duration.

    totally agree with this it sux getting cj'd 3 times in less then a minute
    Freepside:

    Lore-Masters:
    1. Change Lore-Master power drain to break when target is not in line of sight. Also, maybe change the duration from 16 seconds? This completely drains a Creeps power in a few seconds, and Creeps have no way to counter it aside from running 40ish(?) meters away, which doesn't help the rest of your group.
    yeah it should break on los right now either the creep has to run away or hope someone mez/stun/cj that lm to break it
    2. Lower Lore-Master Sticky-Tar's duration, closer to Spider Web The Earth. Remove induction? i don't mind the duration of sticky tar and think its fine the way it is though i would rather increase the duration of wte to 30 sec while doubling its cd

    3. Turn Lore-Master damage down 10%? as a creep i like this idea since its kinda crazy how much dps they can do with all the cc/debuffs on the other hand if lm's had less dps they would be doing more debuffing and curing wounds and disease so not sure if lowering the dps is really a good idea


    Minstrels:
    1. Lower Warspeech damage. The main 2 healing classes Freepside have more burst than they should.in theory lowering mini's dps sounds good but i'd rather have them doing dps then healing so i don't really like that idea

    2. Lower Minstrel Bolster Courage heal induction to 1.5 seconds in the Moors, I understand it's really hard to get heals off, especially with wargs.
    not a bad idea

    Burglars:
    1. Change Trip to be a stun/knockdown and lower Cooldown to 30-60 seconds? Wargs have 10 second Cooldown on their stuns so.... Just a thought.burgs already have a stun every 30 secs no need to give them another stun every 30 secs besides cripple pounce isn't a surefire stun but the proc rate should really be adjusted down to the same as exposed throat and increase the rate exposed throat procs a cj

    2. Addle Induction multiplier should be capped at +50%, so removing 25% off of what it caps at already.like this idea
    3. Fix HIPS, NPCs still stay on you many times. *sigh*PLEASE FIX for both sides since it isn't just burgs that have this problem its wargs 2 though i do like when a burg hips's and my hatchlings don't care and still follow


    Captains:
    1. Change In Harms Way Cooldown to 10 minutes? 5 Minutes is a bit silly since it's usually used with Last Stand which is 15 minutes. It's also a bit unfair of an advantage being able to split damage every 5 minutes.
    don't think this is needed at all think about it this way if a captain blows harms way without stand they are suddenly taking allot of extra damage and that will probably end up getting them killed

    Hunters:
    1. Hunters are rather squishy with little to no escape for them. An easy solution would be put DF on a 30m CD but usable in combat, however this would cause more "Star Farming". So maybe give them a small evade buff for 10-30s? Or more passive evade?while i really don't like df(lost to much infamy cuz a hunter decides to df ) if the added an induction to it and made u still get the infamy when the get it off to late and die in the rez then i'd be all for giving it back that or give them something like moving target ba's have but right now if they don't 1 shot u they are pretty much a free meal if alone


    Allow Freeps to purchase passive Ettenmoor/PvP zone only buffs with Destiny Points to upgrade them to Signature and Elite at ranks 2 and 8. This will not effect Free Peoples outside of the Ettenmoors. and what advantage will that be to freeps besides the ring around there name?


    Creepside:

    Weavers:
    1. Web The Earth: Change the Area Of Effect to better fit the visible area. Currently it will effect a Freep about 10 meters away from it....should also be the same way with tar its effect extends out past its visable area as well though not as far they both actually fill about the same radius


    Blackarrows:
    1. Flaming Arrow Damage Over Time should be reduced significantly.
    why lower a curable dot when creep dps depends on dots since they have much lower direct damage
    2. Screaming Shafts damage should be buffed significantly. The other day I was on my Guardian and a Rank 4 Blackarrow hit me with all 3 shots for 65 damage each. How is Blackarrow supposed to do damage with this? Creeps should not need Damage over Time to win, but that's the way it is.
    the system was designed to make freeps/creeps not exact mirrors thus freeps have direct damage creeps have dots ,creeps more morale and defense freeps more dps creeps have better resists freeps get more cc
    3. Lower power cost on some skills such as Flaming Arrow, no need for a high cost if it's damage over time is lowered.don't think it needs to change


    Reavers:
    1. Lacerate is currently stackable but not removable. It should be both or neither.

    2. Conjunctions through Charge is just silly, Charge only lasts 7 seconds anyways.
    agree with both

    Warleaders:
    1. Rank 8 skill Menacing Roar should get an upgrade at Rank 10 to add a 3-5 second knockdown as well.

    2. Remove Rank 7 Command Post and Rank 12 Point-Defense's inductions seeing as how Captains have none.

    3. Fix Command Post and Point-Defense to stay with you on the battlefield until you move more than 30 meters away. It's already a pain to place it with a 3 second induction, and now it removes itself randomly even if you are directly next to it.
    agree with theese

    Defilers:
    1. I noticed that all the debuffs Defilers get seem a bit powerful. Maybe lower the durations and/or extend the cooldowns?
    have u ever noticed what kind of debuffs lm's have?
    2. Maybe lower rez CD to 10s?
    don't like this creeps already have far better ability to res then freeps no need to further unbalance it

    Wargs:
    1. Remove atleast one of their bleeds.
    2. Wargs Bestial claws does a bit too much damage for having no CD and little animation.
    i wouldn't actually remove the bleeds but they should be curable and claws should probably get a short cd (1 sec) in stead of lowered damage. the should also change the proc rate of criplle pounce to be same as burgs exploit opening
    Creeps rely far too much on Damage Over Time to get kills, I've seen it on my Freep and Creep. Removing Creep Damage Over Times, Lowering them or even buffing other Creep Damage skills should balance it more.
    i kinda like the idea of creeps attacking with dots vs freeps direct based damage though i think all dots for both sides should be removable and think creeps should have a class that can remove creep wounds like lms can remove wound/disease and hunters/burgs can remove poison maybe add a new creep class that has low dps(but aoe) can cure dots and debuff

    ~~Khronus of Windfola
    my responses are in bold/italics while im biased towards creepside i do probably spend as much time if not more time on my freeps though i tend not to pvmp on freepside(seems to be far more lag there)

  6. #31
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Freepside healers can dps OR heal

    Creepside healers can tank AND heal

    While I agree that if they fix cjs so they function like a regilar stun (Pots, FF, TTK, Resilence, snap, brands, SoPR) they will also need to lower the high end tact dmg, they do not need to destroy minstrel and RK DPS.

    I am a healing minstrel. My mins has 25k + kills and under 700 kbs, but if freep healers have their DPS nerfed in pvp, their mits should be buffed in that zone too.

    Or WL/defiler mits should be nerfed to mins rk levels and maybe give reavers a stance where they can tank. (-dps +mits while in the stance. OOC only to activate it)

  7. #32
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by ursinuspip73 View Post
    Freepside healers can dps OR heal

    Creepside healers can tank AND heal

    While I agree that if they fix cjs so they function like a regilar stun (Pots, FF, TTK, Resilence, snap, brands, SoPR) they will also need to lower the high end tact dmg, they do not need to destroy minstrel and RK DPS.
    Oh, not at all, just lower it a little bit. Just 5-10%?

    I am a healing minstrel. My mins has 25k + kills and under 700 kbs, but if freep healers have their DPS nerfed in pvp, their mits should be buffed in that zone too.
    Understandable, and agreed.

    Or WL/defiler mits should be nerfed to mins rk levels and maybe give reavers a stance where they can tank. (-dps +mits while in the stance. OOC only to activate it)
    Well, since Defilers aren't supposed to be tanks, them getting nerfed is not a huge issue, they should rarely get damaged anyways.

    But then I probably sound biased against defilers because my main is a WL.... But really, if you've ever seen me play, I use that armour and health to my raids values, I usually lead/target call so I'm up front a lot, and silly freeps attack me over the squishy wargs. =\
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  8. #33

    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeppelinCobalt View Post
    As well as this Lore-Masters can crit their heal for 4k or higher. I'm basing these numbers off what I've seen on a badly geared LM on Bullroarer vs. R12-13 Creeps, and from a friend of mine on Windfola.


    my defiler on bullroarer killed 4 lm on 1 so i don't think they're OP they have big hits that have 5mins CDs they can't pull it off every 30sec like lets say RK EC not to mention if you interrupt on you their intros are long enough to gut punch...or no you dont resettin the bar not to mention if your doin decent hits it'll take them awhile to get it off if you aren't CCed

    i agree freep healer is abit ridiculous since their burst is better then actual dps classes. But creep healers have more mit then guard, the primary tank class freep side. Personally tact crit multipliers are abit over the top 400-500 base attack crits for 2-3k thats abit of a jump...My guard hits for that much and is lucky on a crit to break 1k. So nerf freep healer dps AND nerf creep healer mit = fair nerf or buff freep healer mit AND buff creep healer dps (even though defilers at that point would be unstoppable :O )

    Dots are abit ridiculous tick for around 200 and stackable to 142352366 so nerf the damage or put a dot cap.
    Last edited by Notaforumguy007; Apr 20 2010 at 07:08 PM.
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  9. #34

    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Notaforumguy007 View Post
    my defiler on bullroarer killed 4 lm on 1
    Impossible, unless they were all below level 50. I dont even think I need to go into detail as to why.
    Last edited by TheCrusher; Apr 20 2010 at 08:12 PM.

  10. #35
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeppelinCobalt View Post
    @Narlinde:

    You have atleast 6+ L65s that are all raid ready or close to raid ready. If you don't want to heal, pick one of your damage classes and play it. There is no reason, NO reason to complain about healing with the characters you can easily choose to play instead. =\

    I play Creepside a lot, yes. But you'll never ever hear me complain about having to heal. I will gladly play any of my characters in the Moors if asked by the raid leader, I play to have fun and help others have fun. I know what my characters can do, and what they should be doing. And if you don't enjoy playing your minstrel which was originally designed as a healing class, you can choose a different one. You never seemed to have a problem before minstrels ever got WS, but now some reason you think your class would be useless without it?
    Buhzuh? Yes, I do have multiple level 65 characters... my point was that MOST FREEPS DON'T. And dude. Seriously... when was the last time I was in the moors and NOT healing? Oh wait, right, when I play my Black-arrow... Why should I play my ALTS that I care about much less than my main, when it is that main character that I love? HOWEVER, there are people who are completely disinclined to play alts, even creep alts. They can play their class however they want to. You can play yours however you want to. Even though this is a video game, the people on the other end are actual real people and deserve some modicum of respect from you, even if you disapprove of their playstyle.

    Also, with the changes that happened with Moria, YES, MINSTRELS WOULD BE COMPLETELY USELESS IN SOLO PLAY WITHOUT WARSPEECH. I used to be able to use my one melee skill for significant damage, now Herald's Strike is so weak it's only good for removing corruptions. I used to have a significant amount of B/P/E, now it's an EVENT when I actually evade something. Liliam says she can play her level 30+ Minstrels without Warspeech... ooooh, ahhh. Why aren't they higher level? Why was the original Pufypanda (a Minstrel), deleted? You do realize that tactical resists and mitigations, as well as mob health goes up rather drastically starting in the mid level 40's for resists and mid level 50's for health. No, it's not really all that difficult to play a Minstrel. It's an easy class, but it is certainly not the ROFLSTOMPOWNZ overpowered class you are trying to make it out to be. Also, while it takes a raid to bring down a Defiler or a Warleader, a Minstrel will die a lot faster. Personally, I think that is pretty balanced, since we can, actually, DPS, unlike the creep healers. If you take away Minstrel DPS in PvMP, I fricking want 10k morale to compensate!

    PS: You can mitigate all Minstrel damage through corruptions. You can also resist all Minstrel damage more through corruptions. Really.
    Narlinde ~ Minstrel, Singer of the Lament of Windfola

  11. #36
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWhiteHawk View Post
    If this server is so freep dominated then why do a whole lot of freeps complain about creeps being op?
    A lot of people are poorly informed and uncritical thinkers.
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  12. #37
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Edited....
    Last edited by ZeppelinCobalt; Apr 20 2010 at 09:15 PM.
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  13. #38
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by nuance View Post
    Apologies if I wasn't as clear as I intended...



    While I did say that I need more DPS, what I meant was, 'more than I get normally, when I am not in war speech' or to put it more plainly, when I am solo or trying to get back to my raid, I need the DPS that war speech gives me, which is more than I get out of war speech. In other words, I am not saying I need more DPS than I currently have. I did however, say that it would be nice to have more survivability on line with creep healing classes.



    Let's consider what you said here. Zerged and targeted. You recognize that it takes a concerted effort from a sizable group of Freeps to put you out of the fight. You have no problem taking DPS off of a minstrel though, even though you know full well it doesn't take a group of creeps working together to pull down a minstrel, quite the contrary...



    And I can't count how many times a smaller group of creeps has completely dominated a larger group of freeps, even with a minstrel healing, loremaster rooting, champs aoe-ing, and tarball tactics on - why? Well easy - kill the minstrels, kill the rest of the group. How hard is it to kill a minstrel? It's trivial.



    Again, my apologies for stating the word 'more', when I meant to say 'I need warspeech, because when running solo I need the DPS it gives me, because without it, my life expectancy against even a single creep is insignificant'. I am pretty sure the well geared out end game freeps I play with on a regular bases are skilled veterans and know what they're doing, so I won't even respond to this comment.



    With all due respect, I completely disagree. Even when freeps are playing their absolute best, like a PvMP kinship on raid night, an equal size group of creeps will absolutely dominate and steamroll the freeps, and the minstrel is (and should be) the first one to die. I don't play on your server, so I guess I can't really state you are wrong here, but on my server your above quote doesn't hold true at all.




    My point, my whole point, was that minstrels do not need warspeech DPS when they're in a raid - it is not at all needed when they are surrounded by DPS or support classes - My entire point was that they do need the DPS when they're solo, in other words, when they're trying to get back to the raid or just out there having fun looking for a fight. I again apologize if that wasn't clear from what I wrote before. I am not trying to disrespect your opinion, but explain my position.



    I am not qualified to do a line by line comparison for freep FMs vs. creep WBMs, but a smaller CJ is pretty weak on both sides. The point I was trying to make, you made quite well for me - the concept of the conjunction is to demonstrate a coordinated attack against an opponent, with effect increasing as coordination increases in a group. As a group weapon, they are without a doubt the most iconic, cornerstone events in this entire game, and I think they should absolutely be part of the fight - but no one is using them for what they're meant for - they are being used as convenient greybar skill to nuke someone from orbit, and that's just pitiful. With damage mitigation during the CJ, it would mean that yes, you would have to practice those patterns and get off one of the good ones. That doesn't sound game breaking, does it?
    Your reply is almost not deserving of a reply but I will do it anyways. You saying you want the dps you would do in war speech out of war speech. There is a reason why that dps is in a specific stance. Just like with champs and theirs and guardians, hunters, etc. There is a trade off for a specific way you want to play your class. What you are asking for is way off the wall and will never happen so why even bring this 'wish' of yours up? I understand you have some hope that it will come true but I will tell you now, turbine will never make your wish come true. And the fact that you don't understand that minstrels have MORE survivability than war leaders astonishes me.

    A minstrels job out there in my opinion, and I am speaking in an ideal world here, is to heal. It is not their job to be dps. Did you expect to dps in raids like helegrod and rift when we were 50? Or BG now? Yes you CAN dps and dps extremely well but that is not your primary job. Every freep class has a tremendous amount of burst dps save maybe only the warden but they still have skills that I have seen crit for a really high number. I am known for bashing people for the way in which they play their toons. When I see bad players I like to let them know what I think. Since I have never seen you play I cannot say anything about your play style and hell maybe the creeps on your server are really just extremely good better than the ones on my server. But when freeps play right the minstrel has support, no matter what size groups you have out there, and minstrels do have a lot of things at their disposal. Yes they are the first targets a lot of the time and yeah they may die quite a bit. it is a difficult class to play out there but I have run countless amounts of small groups v small groups playing on both sides and when the minstrel is good and the players around them are too that minstrel can get very difficult to kill. This goes the same in raid v raid even though of course the minstrel probably tends to die more in those situations since its more dps concentrated on a single target. And of course if you have runts of the litter in the group, doesn't matter which side you may be on, it get increasingly difficult to pull off things that you should be able to. So I repeat my previous statement, Maybe it is a problem with the 'quality' of the people you group with? People tend to point fingers in so many directions when things go out of wack and a lot of the time, going off of what I have seen, don't point their finger right next to them. I would say 'at yourself' but like I have said already, never seen you play.

    Moors is technically a fellowship or raid area. If you chose to go solo, all the more power to you but that doesn't mean your class will have the advantage over every single class on the other side. You should not expect that. Minstrels have more than enough dps at the present time asking for more is, in my opinion, greedy. If you are wanting all this because maybe your server is greatly over populated then just do what you can with what you have. Changes will not be made because some servers have a severe amount more players than others.

    You said "I am not trying to disrespect your opinion, just explain my position." I respect that even though I do not agree with you at all but hey maybe you are all right in this. However, I really do not think that is the case.

    Concerning fellowship maneuvers...you obviously have never played a creep. The comparison between freep FM's and creep FM's is laughable. For creeps to even do somewhat decent dps with them alone, taking only the cj into account not added dps from creeps, you have to really work at getting the cj down. However, freeps just have to hit all red or yellow or green. Green cjs freep side still are really overpowered out there especially when the heal on a creep cj heals...like 200 morale or something? Can't really remember the exact number but its pathetic. And you don't even get a hot for it if you stack it up. Game breaking? No, but freeps don't need to use that thing...what is it called? Oh yeah! A brain to get a cj down that will do either a lot of dps or heal you for a considerable amount.

  14. #39

    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    I am sorry but I am not a fan of reading text walls so sorry if this has ben mentioned but if BA fire dot gets nerfed which i can agree with more than SS needs boost eed higher base damage on ALL skills as well as some NON induction skills like hunters focus skills. Because as of right now the only non induction skill is the interupt. t

  15. #40
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan View Post
    Buhzuh? Yes, I do have multiple level 65 characters... my point was that MOST FREEPS DON'T. And dude. Seriously... when was the last time I was in the moors and NOT healing? Oh wait, right, when I play my Black-arrow... Why should I play my ALTS that I care about much less than my main, when it is that main character that I love? HOWEVER, there are people who are completely disinclined to play alts, even creep alts. They can play their class however they want to. You can play yours however you want to. Even though this is a video game, the people on the other end are actual real people and deserve some modicum of respect from you, even if you disapprove of their playstyle.

    Also, with the changes that happened with Moria, YES, MINSTRELS WOULD BE COMPLETELY USELESS IN SOLO PLAY WITHOUT WARSPEECH. I used to be able to use my one melee skill for significant damage, now Herald's Strike is so weak it's only good for removing corruptions. I used to have a significant amount of B/P/E, now it's an EVENT when I actually evade something. Liliam says she can play her level 30+ Minstrels without Warspeech... ooooh, ahhh. Why aren't they higher level? Why was the original Pufypanda (a Minstrel), deleted? You do realize that tactical resists and mitigations, as well as mob health goes up rather drastically starting in the mid level 40's for resists and mid level 50's for health. No, it's not really all that difficult to play a Minstrel. It's an easy class, but it is certainly not the ROFLSTOMPOWNZ overpowered class you are trying to make it out to be. Also, while it takes a raid to bring down a Defiler or a Warleader, a Minstrel will die a lot faster. Personally, I think that is pretty balanced, since we can, actually, DPS, unlike the creep healers. If you take away Minstrel DPS in PvMP, I fricking want 10k morale to compensate!

    PS: You can mitigate all Minstrel damage through corruptions. You can also resist all Minstrel damage more through corruptions. Really.
    You looking in on my old toons now? I didn't want to play a healing class back then, which was a really long time ago. And want to know why my minstrel isn't higher lvl now? Maybe because I can't get 1-65 in a day? Been playing it past couple weeks but it is not the only thing I want to do when I decide I want to play lotro.

    Do you want to know why it takes that many to take down defilers and war leaders sometimes? Because creep side support and healing classes are doing their job. Don't complain because you can't blow up a target with ALL the dps freep side has. Come on now, you are more intelligent than this. If you have any issues, take it up with your raid for not keeping you up.

    Tactical can now be mitigated? That is new news to me. However I doubt it is true.
    Last edited by TheWhiteHawk; Apr 22 2010 at 12:27 AM.

  16. #41
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWhiteHawk View Post
    Tactical can now be mitigated? That is new news to me. However I doubt it is true.
    All Minstrel skills deal Light damage except for (Timeless) Echoes of Battle, which can deal Light, Beleriand, Westernesse, or Ancient Dwarf depending on the instrument equipped. All of these damage types can be mitigated by creep corruptions. Oh, and Minstrel melee autoattacks will deal the damage of type of whatever scroll they have equipped on their melee weapon.

    (PS: I remember this cute little Hobbit Minstrel with a silly name I power-leveled through the Weather Hills... what ever happened to her...?)
    Narlinde ~ Minstrel, Singer of the Lament of Windfola

  17. #42

    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWhiteHawk View Post
    You saying you want the dps you would do in war speech out of war speech.
    Again you completely misunderstand what I have said, two times, as clearly as I know how.

    I will try again.

    Minstrels need to keep war speech damage as is, for when they are solo.

    At no time, did I ever say I wanted to have war speech damage amounts while I am healing.

    At no time, did I ever say I wanted to have more damage than I do.

    I was saying, that when I am solo, I need more damage than I have when I am healing, and therefore, being able to switch to war speech is very important to the minstrel class.

    The original point I was addressing was a call to reduce the amount of damage a minstrel can do.

    My position is, and remains, that the DPS a minstrel can do in war speech is necessary for the class to survive (or at least be competitive) when solo, in both PVE and PVMP.

    At no time was I calling for an increase in my damage output - to the contrary, I am calling for my damage output to remain the same, in answer to a request made to lower DPS for the minstrel class.

    While it's irrelevant to the conversation, I will add that I have played creep, though not extensively, I have a defiler, warg, spider, and black arrow, and they are all rank 4 sigs. I am not pro, but I am not really what you'd consider wet behind the ears either. As to the server I play on, Elendilmir, there are some absolutely pro players on the server on both sides, with great raid, and even multiple raid battles to be had nearly every day during primetime. Again, none of this is relevant but you seemed to be interested in the information.
    Last edited by nuance; Apr 22 2010 at 03:43 PM.
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  18. #43
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeppelinCobalt View Post
    1. Change Conjunctions to be effected by Diminishing Returns OR
    2. Change Conjunction Immunity to prevent Conjunction Knockdown for the entire duration.
    Or, allow CJs to be counterable: FF/Resilience/Snap/Etc.

    Lore-Masters:
    1. Change Lore-Master power drain to break when target is not in line of sight. Also, maybe change the duration from 16 seconds? This completely drains a Creeps power in a few seconds, and Creeps have no way to counter it aside
    Eye-rake? No you don't? CJ-state? Mez?

    Burglars:
    1. Change Trip to be a stun/knockdown and lower Cooldown to 30-60 seconds? Wargs have 10 second Cooldown on their stuns so.... Just a thought.
    Would be overpowering. While Wargs have a in theory 10s CD on their Stun, allowing Trip to be a knockdown would A) Bring back the much loved Double CJ and B) Further the problem with uncounterable CC. Pots do not work on knockdowns, only Resilience and Snap do.

    Freeps:
    May I ask why there is a request for a general nerf to the only main damage Freeps have? Tactical damage is the main reason why Creeps die. Removing and/or diminishing that would make it even more difficult for Freeps to compete. We already know what happens when a Freep melee, whether BURG/CHAMP/GUARD comes forward to engage a Creep, so without ranged DPS, what is the Freep faction supposed to do?

    Warleaders:
    1. Rank 8 skill Menacing Roar should get an upgrade at Rank 10 to add a 3-5 second knockdown as well.

    2. Remove Rank 7 Command Post and Rank 12 Point-Defense's inductions seeing as how Captains have none.

    3. Fix Command Post and Point-Defense to stay with you on the battlefield until you move more than 30 meters away. It's already a pain to place it with a 3 second induction, and now it removes itself randomly even if you are directly next to it.
    All buffs to WL? Nothing about their HP/Mitigations/Resistances?

  19. #44
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by nuance View Post
    Minstrels (even me, occasionally) need more DPS.
    Quote Originally Posted by nuance View Post
    While I did say that I need more DPS, what I meant was, 'more than I get normally, when I am not in war speech' or to put it more plainly, when I am solo or trying to get back to my raid, I need the DPS that war speech gives me, which is more than I get out of war speech. In other words, I am not saying I need more DPS than I currently have. I did however, say that it would be nice to have more survivability on line with creep healing classes.
    Quote Originally Posted by nuance View Post
    Again you completely misunderstand what I have said, two times, as clearly as I know how.

    I will try again.

    Minstrels need to keep war speech damage as is, for when they are solo.

    At no time, did I ever say I wanted to have war speech damage amounts while I am healing.

    At no time, did I ever say I wanted to have more damage than I do.

    I was saying, that when I am solo, I need more damage than I have when I am healing, and therefore, being able to switch to war speech is very important to the minstrel class.

    The original point I was addressing was a call to reduce the amount of damage a minstrel can do.

    My position is, and remains, that the DPS a minstrel can do in war speech is necessary for the class to survive (or at least be competitive) when solo, in both PVE and PVMP.

    At no time was I calling for an increase in my damage output - to the contrary, I am calling for my damage output to remain the same, in answer to a request made to lower DPS for the minstrel class.

    While it's irrelevant to the conversation, I will add that I have played creep, though not extensively, I have a defiler, warg, spider, and black arrow, and they are all rank 4 sigs. I am not pro, but I am not really what you'd consider wet behind the ears either. As to the server I play on, Elendilmir, there are some absolutely pro players on the server on both sides, with great raid, and even multiple raid battles to be had nearly every day during primetime. Again, none of this is relevant but you seemed to be interested in the information.
    The second quote I posted showed you to be a little confused because You did state you wanted/needed more dps or in words you might understand, more damage than you do. Honestly though, minstrel dps is more than fine at the moment, you saying you want more for when you are solo is just the same as saying you just simply want more dps. Unless there will be a debuff on your dps while you're in a raid but that still doesn't change the fact that minstrels solo in big fights just like any class.

    You just seem like another person playing a class that is over powered wanting more at their disposal. Yes your survivability can be lacking but doesn't change the fact that your dps is still there. When minstrels can and have crit me for just about 1.5k + on 3 skills consecutively I do not think they should get a buff in that department even if its for soloing purposes. If you run solo in moors you are on your own. That is the point of being solo correct? To fend for yourself? The way I see it, if you are solo you have no real reason to complain about pvp because it isn't meant to be a solo area. It is amazing how you state in this post things like, "At no time, did I ever say I wanted to have more damage than I do." and "At no time was I calling for an increase in my damage output - to the contrary, I am calling for my damage output to remain the same, in answer to a request made to lower DPS for the minstrel class." when you did just that in previous posts. Who are you trying to convince?

    Elendilmir, well there in lies your problem. That server has more creeps than freeps correct? And most people are solo correct? That explains why you die as much as you seem to claim to and this would explain why you would want more dps while solo. You said a few times that I misunderstood what you have said, but I understand you completely now.
    Last edited by TheWhiteHawk; Apr 22 2010 at 09:33 PM.

  20. #45
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan View Post
    All Minstrel skills deal Light damage except for (Timeless) Echoes of Battle, which can deal Light, Beleriand, Westernesse, or Ancient Dwarf depending on the instrument equipped. All of these damage types can be mitigated by creep corruptions. Oh, and Minstrel melee autoattacks will deal the damage of type of whatever scroll they have equipped on their melee weapon.

    (PS: I remember this cute little Hobbit Minstrel with a silly name I power-leveled through the Weather Hills... what ever happened to her...?)
    As far as I know and from what I remember, tactical cannot be mitigated. Yes we COULD slot in light mitigation corruptions but that trade off isn't worth it. But in any case a couple corruptions will not save the creep against minstrel dps. I can see what point you were going for here but it does not have merit.

    Ummm I deleted it? Thought that was made obvious especially since I have a new one.

  21. #46
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    347

    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by bprorsum View Post
    Or, allow CJs to be counterable: FF/Resilience/Snap/Etc.
    Want to protect your stars huh?

  22. #47

    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWhiteHawk View Post
    Want to protect your stars huh?
    That's exactly what I was thinking hah

  23. #48
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWhiteHawk View Post
    Want to protect your stars huh?
    Since I've been PvPing through CJ-States, I don't need any more assistance to kill and not be killed.

    But you're right, even though you have to be one of the biggest whiners I've seen on your server when it comes to dying, I'm clearly worried only about FF and I'm clearly the only one that thinks CC should have a counter, which includes class skills.

    You got me, Pillow.

  24. #49
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    347

    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by bprorsum View Post
    Since I've been PvPing through CJ-States, I don't need any more assistance to kill and not be killed.

    But you're right, even though you have to be one of the biggest whiners I've seen on your server when it comes to dying, I'm clearly worried only about FF and I'm clearly the only one that thinks CC should have a counter, which includes class skills.

    You got me, Pillow.
    I don't whine about dying, I 'whine' about how people choose to play at times. My warg has like 1800-1900 deaths, quite a bit. Champ has over 2k. If people are sitting back waiting for a smaller force to charge out at them because they want to farm yeah I am going to complain about it.

    If my burg was my main I would probably be clearly worried about FF as well. Why wouldn't I be? Big heal, +50% evade, breaks cj. Makes holding onto stars so much easier but I am sure you are more than aware of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarfWarlord View Post
    So then you would be fine with Wargs having a counter to Burg CJs ?

    LOL as if ....
    I am going to guess he wouldn't be fine but he might surprise me.

  25. #50
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarfWarlord View Post
    So then you would be fine with Wargs having a counter to Burg CJs ?

    LOL as if ....
    So, you don't want me to answer?

 

 
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