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  1. #1
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    PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    If Turbine isn't planning on giving us a PvP Expansion/map etc, I figured maybe they could make a few improvements here or there...

    EDIT: I don't know what Turbine has in store for later or anything, so this is not me complaining to Turbine at all. Just incase you don't plan on anything, maybe some tweaks here or there?

    These are my thoughts of what should be "Improved", you don't have to agree with it, but feel free to share your thoughts as well.


    Conjunctions:

    1. Change Conjunctions to be effected by Diminishing Returns OR
    2. Change Conjunction Immunity to prevent Conjunction Knockdown for the entire duration.


    Freepside:

    Lore-Masters:
    1. Change Lore-Master power drain to break when target is not in line of sight. Also, maybe change the duration from 16 seconds? This completely drains a Creeps power in a few seconds, and Creeps have no way to counter it aside from running 40ish(?) meters away, which doesn't help the rest of your group.

    2. Lower Lore-Master Sticky-Tar's duration, closer to Spider Web The Earth. Remove induction?

    3. Turn Lore-Master damage down 10%?


    Minstrels:
    1. Lower Warspeech damage. The main 2 healing classes Freepside have more burst than they should.

    2. Lower Minstrel Bolster Courage heal induction to 1.5 seconds in the Moors, I understand it's really hard to get heals off, especially with wargs.


    Burglars:
    1. Change Trip to be a stun/knockdown and lower Cooldown to 30-60 seconds? Wargs have 10 second Cooldown on their stuns so.... Just a thought.
    2. Addle Induction multiplier should be capped at +50%, so removing 25% off of what it caps at already.
    3. Fix HIPS, NPCs still stay on you many times. *sigh*


    Captains:
    1. Change In Harms Way Cooldown to 10 minutes? 5 Minutes is a bit silly since it's usually used with Last Stand which is 15 minutes. It's also a bit unfair of an advantage being able to split damage every 5 minutes.


    Hunters:
    1. Hunters are rather squishy with little to no escape for them. An easy solution would be put DF on a 30m CD but usable in combat, however this would cause more "Star Farming". So maybe give them a small evade buff for 10-30s? Or more passive evade?


    Allow Freeps to purchase passive Ettenmoor/PvP zone only buffs with Destiny Points to upgrade them to Signature and Elite at ranks 2 and 8. This will not effect Free Peoples outside of the Ettenmoors.


    Creepside:

    Weavers:
    1. Web The Earth: Change the Area Of Effect to better fit the visible area. Currently it will effect a Freep about 10 meters away from it....


    Blackarrows:
    1. Flaming Arrow Damage Over Time should be reduced significantly.

    2. Screaming Shafts damage should be buffed significantly. The other day I was on my Guardian and a Rank 4 Blackarrow hit me with all 3 shots for 65 damage each. How is Blackarrow supposed to do damage with this? Creeps should not need Damage over Time to win, but that's the way it is.

    3. Lower power cost on some skills such as Flaming Arrow, no need for a high cost if it's damage over time is lowered.


    Reavers:
    1. Lacerate is currently stackable but not removable. It should be both or neither.

    2. Conjunctions through Charge is just silly, Charge only lasts 7 seconds anyways.


    Warleaders:
    1. Rank 8 skill Menacing Roar should get an upgrade at Rank 10 to add a 3-5 second knockdown as well.

    2. Remove Rank 7 Command Post and Rank 12 Point-Defense's inductions seeing as how Captains have none.

    3. Fix Command Post and Point-Defense to stay with you on the battlefield until you move more than 30 meters away. It's already a pain to place it with a 3 second induction, and now it removes itself randomly even if you are directly next to it.


    Defilers:
    1. I noticed that all the debuffs Defilers get seem a bit powerful. Maybe lower the durations and/or extend the cooldowns?

    2. Maybe lower rez CD to 10s?


    Wargs:
    1. Remove atleast one of their bleeds.
    2. Wargs Bestial claws does a bit too much damage for having no CD and little animation.

    Creeps rely far too much on Damage Over Time to get kills, I've seen it on my Freep and Creep. Removing Creep Damage Over Times, Lowering them or even buffing other Creep Damage skills should balance it more.

    I almost said something about giving Creeps more Area Of Effects considering the Freeps dominate in that department. However, Creeps do have a 6-7 minute cooldown 5 target in combat rez, so that balances fairly evenly.

    I'm not trying to be biased to one side, just calling what I see. I play both sides fairly actively and love them almost equally. :P


    ~~Khronus of Windfola
    Last edited by ZeppelinCobalt; Apr 20 2010 at 11:17 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeppelinCobalt View Post

    Incombat Sprints: Freeps have a full fellowship +25% run speed duration 20-45 seconds with legacies. Champions and Guardians have a set run speed to 125% for 15-45 seconds and 150% for 7-17 seconds. Now, this seems a bit silly seeing as the only Creep class with an incombat sprint is Wargs with set to 200% for 20s. Maybe something could be done here, whether it be changing Freeps, giving Creeps more or what. Not necessary but something to think about.
    Yes lets make it harder out there for the freep melee classes who have to get into melee range to be effective.
    Edelbrock

  3. #3
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orlandu View Post
    Yes lets make it harder out there for the freep melee classes who have to get into melee range to be effective.
    I don't mind the sprints too much. But I suppose that since Creeps have 1 Melee class and 1 Stealth/Melee class, they don't really need any more. I suppose you have a point. But like I said, just something to think about. Three different sprints in combat on low cooldowns.

    Edited.
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  4. #4
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    hi, your suggestions show me that you play a creep more often than freep, despite the signature.
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  5. #5
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr View Post
    hi, your suggestions show me that you play a creep more often than freep, despite the signature.
    Switched it back just for you.

    I play Creepside a lot, yes. However when I play Freepside I see the things that are really powerful and those that are not. I try to remain as unbiased as possible, even I love my Warleader a lot, and therefore Creep things. But unless you play the other side, you don't see just how powerful they can be.


    You, obviously play Freepside a LOT. And probably don't play Creepside much at all.

    Wargs + CJs + DOTS = Very effective in small group fights, otherwise nearly useless with how fast they melt to any freep class, mainly hunters and RKs, as you should already know. Does this mean they are OP? No, it just means they have some advantages over other classes, as do all classes. A hunter can hit Burnhot, HS+MS or SB+MS or whatever the order, and burn most any creep very low with crits. Creeps can't do that, but they do have other advantages to counter it.

    You need to look at both sides in order to argue something without looking like a complete fool.

    I have no problems acknowledging the fact that Creep DOTs are ridiculous, and WL armour is pretty ridiculous. The DOTs can be fixed easily, the WL however, was designed to be a tank and healer and changing a class significantly wouldn't be right, imho. =\

    Oh, and you may think WLs are tough to take down? Try playing Creepside and trying to take out a Guardian, talk about PITA. :P


    Apologies if I was too biased, I'll be freeping more now and then to try and gather more information.
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  6. #6
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    agree to some. No to lowering lm dmg and sticky tar duration and no to giving more creeps a sprint. Obvious bias but both of these things would be another nerf to lore-masters
    "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle, and quick to anger!"
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  7. #7

    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeppelinCobalt View Post

    Warleaders:
    1. Rank 8 skill Menacing Roar should get an upgrade at Rank 10 to add a 3-5 second knockdown as well.

    2. Lower Armor Value on Warleaders by 1000(?).

    3. Change Snap Out Of It to remove Fears.

    4. Remove Rank 7 Command Post and Rank 12 Point-Defense's inductions seeing as how Captains have none.

    5. Fix Command Post and Point-Defense to stay with you on the battlefield until you move more than 30 meters away. It's already a pain to place it with a 3 second induction, and now it removes itself randomly even if you are directly next to it.

    ~~Khronus of Windfola

    I disagree with Warleader armour reduction. We are built for sturdiness at the cost of low damage output. I really dont think this should be tampered with all that much.

    I agree that our buff banners need their inductions removed or reduced significantly. Personally i would rather see the rank 12 banner changed to a toggle like skill though, kind of like our auras but w/o the pps cost.

    As far as having a knockdown added to Menacing Roar at rank 10 , yea i could see that although i think it should be a proc chance rather than automatic. Maybe 25 % or so.

    I dont really agree that "Snap Out Of It" should remove fears. I think it is fine as is.
    Ridduk - R15 WL

  8. #8
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bedelian View Post
    agree to some. No to lowering lm dmg and sticky tar duration and no to giving more creeps a sprint. Obvious bias but both of these things would be another nerf to lore-masters
    Amusing, to say the least. Lore-Masters can already crit over 1k on EACH lightning strike on EACH target, over 2k Ents on EACH target have massive other damage (Did they fix Burning Embers DOT from lasting almost a minute? If so good, that was stupid). As well as this Lore-Masters can crit their heal for 4k or higher. I'm basing these numbers off what I've seen on a badly geared LM on Bullroarer vs. R12-13 Creeps, and from a friend of mine on Windfola.

    But then... I did only say turn it down a bit, maybe 10-20%?

    As for the sprint, maybe it's not necessary, I think I kind of said that in my last post though......

    Sticky Tar..... Currently it lasts 2-3 times as long as Web The Earth(Or Something?), Of course you're not for nerfing that or any other LM skill. Obvious bias.

    Freeps are actually more powerful than creeps if you know what you are doing. Just think about it, Freeps dominate in AOE DPS, Single Target DPS, Survavibility Cooldowns etc. What I've seen playing on Elendilmir and Brandywine, Freep raids are usually in the numbers of 12-24, with Creep raids being inbetween 1 and 2 full raids with gold taggers. If Freeps are still ranking slightly faster with these odds, how can you say I am so bias?

    Granted, Get a Grip on more populated servers with 5 R9+ Uruks running around is very very powerful, On windfola it's just me though, and I've noticed that it only heals 5 targets, rarely ever the ones you want and usually heals after the target you're trying to heal is already dead or a few seconds after YOU are dead. Same with Strength of Morale. =\

    If you actually read my "Creepside" part of my post, you'd see I want to get rid of almost all DOT's, which are in fact not needed, or wanted by Freeps and some Creeps that are just fed up with 20 DOT+CJ easymode. As well as Blackarrows hitting 65's while with Swiftbow Hunters can do damage anywhere from 200-300 normal to 1,700ish critical on EACH attack. Meanwhile you're able to hit 5(?) targets with Ents Go To War for what is it now, 800 base (with good Legacies) to 2,000+ AND stun all of those targets? I just have to laugh at this.....

    Quote Originally Posted by dagorlad91806 View Post
    I disagree with Warleader armour reduction. We are built for sturdiness at the cost of low damage output. I really dont think this should be tampered with all that much.

    I agree that our buff banners need their inductions removed or reduced significantly. Personally i would rather see the rank 12 banner changed to a toggle like skill though, kind of like our auras but w/o the pps cost.

    As far as having a knockdown added to Menacing Roar at rank 10 , yea i could see that although i think it should be a proc chance rather than automatic. Maybe 25 % or so.
    Hmm, The captain stun is an instant 3 second 4 target stun, but requires an on defeat response. Though I suppose a proc could be alright, just give us atleast 1 CC skill... I'm almost begging, rofl.

    I dont really agree that "Snap Out Of It" should remove fears. I think it is fine as is.
    The only CC Snap Out Of It does not work in are Fears and Conjunctions, and the only CC NOT effected by Diminishing Returns is Conjunctions, not very consistent if you ask me. That's the only reason I suggested to change it back.
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  9. #9
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    I'd really flame this post, but I wanna have breakfast instead. Peace.

  10. #10
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasharu View Post
    I'd really flame this post, but I wanna have breakfast instead. Peace.
    I'll wait. I'm sure it's going to have some amazing Lore-Master/Freep bias.

    EDIT: I may not wait, I can already imagine how you'll try to sympathize the Freeps by making them look weaker than they are. And seeing as how you're a rank 12 Lore-master, it would be a waste of my time to think about arguing with you over something you won't look at from any other view.

    If I'm wrong, my apologies, if I'm right, don't expect much of a reply.
    Last edited by ZeppelinCobalt; Apr 20 2010 at 10:17 AM.
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  11. #11

    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeppelinCobalt View Post
    Conjunctions:

    1. Remove Conjunctions from PvP OR
    2. Change Conjunctions to be effected by Diminishing Returns OR
    3. Change Conjunction Immunity to prevent Conjunction Knockdown for the entire duration.

    Freepside:

    Lore-Masters:
    1. Change Lore-Master power drain to break when target is not in line of sight. Also, maybe change the duration from 16 seconds? This completely drains a Creeps power in a few seconds, and Creeps have no way to counter it aside from running 40ish(?) meters away, which doesn't help the rest of your group.

    2. Lower Lore-Master Sticky-Tar's duration, closer to Spider Web The Earth. Remove induction?

    3. Turn Lore-Master damage down a bit?


    Minstrels:
    1. Lower Warspeech damage. The main 2 healing classes Freepside have more burst than they should.

    Now, this is just a suggestion, and it's probably going to be despised by 90% who read this: Change Freeps to Swarm in the Ettenmoors, and at Ranks 0, 2 and 8 can upgrade with DP to Normal, Signature and Elite. This would balance out the Creeps having "Greendots", however it would cause more of a grind for Freeps, which is not good. But maybe they'd also gain Health and armour bonuses to give incentive for this or for Freeps to continue playing.

    Remove several of the Freeps Area Of Effect Crowd Control skills or give Creeps more.

    Incombat Sprints: Freeps have a full fellowship +25% run speed duration 20-45 seconds with legacies. Champions and Guardians have a set run speed to 125% for 15-45 seconds and 150% for 7-17 seconds. Now, this seems a bit silly seeing as the only Creep class with an incombat sprint is Wargs with set to 200% for 20s. Maybe something could be done here, whether it be changing Freeps, giving Creeps more or what. Not necessary but something to think about.

    Burglars:
    1. Change Trip to be a stun/knockdown and lower Cooldown to 30-60 seconds? Wargs have 10 second Cooldown on their stuns so.... Just a thought.

    Captains:
    1. Change In Harms Way Cooldown to 10 minutes? 5 Minutes is a bit silly since it's usually used with Last Stand which is 15 minutes. It's also a bit unfair of an advantage being able to split damage every 5 minutes.


    Creepside:

    Weavers:
    1. Web The Earth: Change the Area Of Effect to better fit the visible area. Currently it will effect a Freep about 10 meters away from it....


    Blackarrows:
    1. Flaming Arrow Damage Over Time should be reduced significantly.

    2. Screaming Shafts damage should be buffed significantly. The other day I was on my Guardian and a Rank 4 Blackarrow hit me with all 3 shots for 65 damage each. How is Blackarrow supposed to do damage with this? Creeps should not need Damage over Time to win, but that's the way it is.

    3. Lower power cost on some skills such as Flaming Arrow, no need for a high cost if it's damage over time is lowered.


    Reavers:
    1. Lacerate is currently stackable but not removable. It should be both or neither.

    2. Conjunctions through Charge is just silly, Charge only lasts 7 seconds anyways.


    Warleaders:
    1. Rank 8 skill Menacing Roar should get an upgrade at Rank 10 to add a 3-5 second knockdown as well.

    2. Lower Armor Value on Warleaders by 1000(?).

    3. Change Snap Out Of It to remove Fears.

    4. Remove Rank 7 Command Post and Rank 12 Point-Defense's inductions seeing as how Captains have none.

    5. Fix Command Post and Point-Defense to stay with you on the battlefield until you move more than 30 meters away. It's already a pain to place it with a 3 second induction, and now it removes itself randomly even if you are directly next to it.


    Defilers:
    1. I noticed that all the debuffs Defilers get seem a bit powerful. Maybe lower the durations and/or extend the cooldowns?

    2. Maybe lower rez CD to 10s?


    Wargs:
    1. Remove atleast one of their bleeds.

    Creeps rely far too much on Damage Over Time to get kills, I've seen it on my Freep and Creep. Removing Creep Damage Over Times, Lowering them or even buffing other Creep Damage skills should balance it more.

    ~~Khronus of Windfola

    A lot of these Ideas are going to jack with the Freep PvE abilities if you go tweaking their damages and such.

    Removing the CJ aspect from Burgs would stop them from being able to do this in the open world.

    Right now the best use of my Burg in a Raid is to KD a guy so that he doesn't sprint away, and most of the time he gets a bubble because there are at least 4-6 WL out at any given time. With the amount of healing we're talking about there, a target who pots out of a stun, or only gets snared will most likely live even under focus fire. My secondary role to disrupt healers is offset by the ability of Wargs to CJ me to death and Spider dots to basically rip my morale away without much effort.

    The problem with CJ is that Burgs can reset theirs, and that Wargs have theirs on a 10sec delay. You have an overabundance of wargs because of this, and because of the fact that they aren't squishy enough to get blown up when they CJ stun a guy in the middle of a Freep raid.

    Warg packs, (I've done it my self a couple of times) can run in CJ bleed, and let die a Freep right in the middle of the raid and have very low casualties, maybe 1, sure they burn Hips and Sprint, but they're safe and your raid is down a minny in about 2 seconds. If there was an actual risk of dying when they pop out of stealth then maybe we'd see less wargs.

    Taking CJ's away from both sides I find to be ridiculous. Burgs have had a lot of their utility in the moors reduced over the years and a lot of people don't even play them in raids anymore because of it. If wargs had a CJ on a 20% proc off of a crit chain event like Burgs I'd ok it, make pounce out of stealth KD, but pounce off of a crippling bite a normal stun again. Either that or reduce Warg morale so that they are brought in line with unbuffed Burgs.

    Freeps do have in combat sprints, but that's becuase they have 5 melee classes. With 4 spiders in a raid you can effectively lock down Freep melee. Sure they can in combat sprint but 1 min cd WtE insta cast can basically make its effect pretty useless. Freeps have to already guage when to use their sprints or they get wasted and they die easily.

    They are good but they need to use them situationally or its like they didn't have them, espeically with them being on a longer CD timer, which I admit isn't all that long, in a good fight I normally see sprint CD 1 to 2 times.

    Edit: The reason I brought up the PvE thing is, that if you start asking for major tweaks to this kind of stuff, you're going to piss off the entire PvE community and we're going to lose some of the headway I think we've finally made for getting PvMP attention.
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  12. #12
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    My favorite two creep-biased "give-away" suggestions were:


    1. make freeps start as swarm, like a greendot. LMFAO..... as if there aren't enough level 48 little wardens and scrapper 52 RK's who are just a VT away from an all expense paid trip to the rez. Wait, let me re-phrase that. ahem.... an all expense paid trip to GV. Creeps are overpowered, and you want freeps to get a nerf... and a significant one at that. lmfao

    2. Your suggestions for creeps showed you play a Warleader. You need to either give every class 2 suggestions, or not suggest 5 things for your own class. lol after i saw the initial post, it took me about 4 seconds to say, "Hhhmmm. 1. he's a creep. 2. he's a WL despite the sig."


    Once you play freepside a little more come back and we'll see if your ideas about starting as a swarm..... after already grinding 65 levels, deeds for virtues, class quest items for legendary traits, epic book quests to even get into Mirkwood, a couple LI's, relics, settings, gems, oh... and gear.
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  13. #13
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erelgal2 View Post
    A lot of these Ideas are going to jack with the Freep PvE abilities if you go tweaking their damages and such.

    Removing the CJ aspect from Burgs would stop them from being able to do this in the open world.

    Right now the best use of my Burg in a Raid is to KD a guy so that he doesn't sprint away, and most of the time he gets a bubble because there are at least 4-6 WL out at any given time. With the amount of healing we're talking about there, a target who pots out of a stun, or only gets snared will most likely live even under focus fire. My secondary role to disrupt healers is offset by the ability of Wargs to CJ me to death and Spider dots to basically rip my morale away without much effort.

    The problem with CJ is that Burgs can reset theirs, and that Wargs have theirs on a 10sec delay. You have an overabundance of wargs because of this, and because of the fact that they aren't squishy enough to get blown up when they CJ stun a guy in the middle of a Freep raid.

    Warg packs, (I've done it my self a couple of times) can run in CJ bleed, and let die a Freep right in the middle of the raid and have very low casualties, maybe 1, sure they burn Hips and Sprint, but they're safe and your raid is down a minny in about 2 seconds. If there was an actual risk of dying when they pop out of stealth then maybe we'd see less wargs.

    Taking CJ's away from both sides I find to be ridiculous. Burgs have had a lot of their utility in the moors reduced over the years and a lot of people don't even play them in raids anymore because of it. If wargs had a CJ on a 20% proc off of a crit chain event like Burgs I'd ok it, make pounce out of stealth KD, but pounce off of a crippling bite a normal stun again. Either that or reduce Warg morale so that they are brought in line with unbuffed Burgs.

    Freeps do have in combat sprints, but that's becuase they have 5 melee classes. With 4 spiders in a raid you can effectively lock down Freep melee. Sure they can in combat sprint but 1 min cd WtE insta cast can basically make its effect pretty useless. Freeps have to already guage when to use their sprints or they get wasted and they die easily.

    They are good but they need to use them situationally or its like they didn't have them, espeically with them being on a longer CD timer, which I admit isn't all that long, in a good fight I normally see sprint CD 1 to 2 times.

    Edit: The reason I brought up the PvE thing is, that if you start asking for major tweaks to this kind of stuff, you're going to piss off the entire PvE community and we're going to lose some of the headway I think we've finally made for getting PvMP attention.
    All I have to say is Monster Play Buff. It changes freep skills, and IMO it should change more. This would not effect PvE in any way, well, except in Ettenmoors.
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  14. #14
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr View Post
    My favorite two creep-biased "give-away" suggestions were:


    1. make freeps start as swarm, like a greendot. LMFAO..... as if there aren't enough level 48 little wardens and scrapper 52 RK's who are just a VT away from an all expense paid trip to the rez. Wait, let me re-phrase that. ahem.... an all expense paid trip to GV. Creeps are overpowered, and you want freeps to get a nerf... and a significant one at that. lmfao

    2. Your suggestions for creeps showed you play a Warleader. You need to either give every class 2 suggestions, or not suggest 5 things for your own class. lol after i saw the initial post, it took me about 4 seconds to say, "Hhhmmm. 1. he's a creep. 2. he's a WL despite the sig."
    I'll take the 2-5 suggestion things into account. And obviously you didn't read the ~~Khronus of Windfola at the bottom. My main freep has always been my Guardian, until recently and I've changed it to my Guardian and/or Captain.


    Once you play freepside a little more come back and we'll see if your ideas about starting as a swarm..... after already grinding 65 levels, deeds for virtues, class quest items for legendary traits, epic book quests to even get into Mirkwood, a couple LI's, relics, settings, gems, oh... and gear.
    Like I said, a suggestion that would be greatly disliked. I have 3 L65's Raid or almost raid ready and a 63. Trust me, I know how bad the grinds are. However, this would buff Freeps. Starting AT normal would be fine and change nothing until you get Signature and Elite, which, would infact not force you to grind anything, and definitely give Freeps a big benefit. Just something to consider.

    I'm trying to be reasonable, so any help is appreciated, thanks for not "Flaming". :P

    I may just continue editing the OP where I am corrected etc.
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  15. #15
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Going to go through this replying to the posts logically, sorry for the length of the post you asked for it

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeppelinCobalt View Post

    Conjunctions:

    1. Remove Conjunctions from PvP OR
    2. Change Conjunctions to be effected by Diminishing Returns OR
    3. Change Conjunction Immunity to prevent Conjunction Knockdown for the entire duration.
    Conjunctions are already effected by DR.

    Freepside:

    Lore-Masters:
    1. Change Lore-Master power drain to break when target is not in line of sight. Also, maybe change the duration from 16 seconds? This completely drains a Creeps power in a few seconds, and Creeps have no way to counter it aside from running 40ish(?) meters away, which doesn't help the rest of your group.

    2. Lower Lore-Master Sticky-Tar's duration, closer to Spider Web The Earth. Remove induction?

    3. Turn Lore-Master damage down a bit?
    Unfortantly I have a level 65 lm but I really don't PvP on him and I only did it back in MoM but here we go.

    Power drain I understand wanting the line of sight, but must channeled skills tend to ignore that till you get away. so my understanding is there is a root reason in the game code most likely too hard to do.

    Sticky-tar lasts longer to be sure but it has a longer cd. This ends up seeming a more random change then anything since in the end it would basically come out the same. Also changing sticky-tar when there is a trait that does that would cause havok I would say leave it alone lol.

    All lms I've talked to complain about resists. now I haven't PvPed on my lm since MoM so I don't know if their just sad or if it really is resisting like crazy. so I'll leave it to lms
    Minstrels:
    1. Lower Warspeech damage. The main 2 healing classes Freepside have more burst than they should.
    In the moors I play my main which happens to be a minstrel so here we go,

    The rks can't have their dps lowed since their supposed to be a dps class. Minstrels pay for it in power consumption which doesn't make much difference in the moors since 10-15 minutes fights don't happen much. What I would say if they do end up nerfing WS remember... Mini's heal all the time when their dpsing (not in a raid I hope) they are out there to have fun and do something different.
    Now, this is just a suggestion, and it's probably going to be despised by 90% who read this: Change Freeps to Swarm in the Ettenmoors, and at Ranks 0, 2 and 8 can upgrade with DP to Normal, Signature and Elite. This would balance out the Creeps having "Greendots", however it would cause more of a grind for Freeps, which is not good. But maybe they'd also gain Health and armour bonuses to give incentive for this or for Freeps to continue playing.
    I'm not 100% sure what you mean. freeps can get better gear as they rank but I don't think they can change their classifaction for PvE reasons.

    Remove several of the Freeps Area Of Effect Crowd Control skills or give Creeps more.
    No one ever likes skills being removed. More to the point I would like to see turbine add a creep AoE class.
    Incombat Sprints: Freeps have a full fellowship +25% run speed duration 20-45 seconds with legacies. Champions and Guardians have a set run speed to 125% for 15-45 seconds and 150% for 7-17 seconds. Now, this seems a bit silly seeing as the only Creep class with an incombat sprint is Wargs with set to 200% for 20s. Maybe something could be done here, whether it be changing Freeps, giving Creeps more or what. Not necessary but something to think about.
    I don't think it will make much difference remember that reavers get a run buff (with immunity)
    Burglars:
    1. Change Trip to be a stun/knockdown and lower Cooldown to 30-60 seconds? Wargs have 10 second Cooldown on their stuns so.... Just a thought.
    Personnaly I think most burgs would love you for this, but burgs also get a mezz and if traited right gambles. I think if anything maybe flip it around increase wargs cd cause really how is being knocked down fun?

    Captains:
    1. Change In Harms Way Cooldown to 10 minutes? 5 Minutes is a bit silly since it's usually used with Last Stand which is 15 minutes. It's also a bit unfair of an advantage being able to split damage every 5 minutes.
    okay I'm confused if its an unfair advantage its not a bit silly cause it does its trick apparently

    Creepside:

    Weavers:
    1. Web The Earth: Change the Area Of Effect to better fit the visible area. Currently it will effect a Freep about 10 meters away from it....
    I agree
    Blackarrows:
    1. Flaming Arrow Damage Over Time should be reduced significantly.

    2. Screaming Shafts damage should be buffed significantly. The other day I was on my Guardian and a Rank 4 Blackarrow hit me with all 3 shots for 65 damage each. How is Blackarrow supposed to do damage with this? Creeps should not need Damage over Time to win, but that's the way it is.

    3. Lower power cost on some skills such as Flaming Arrow, no need for a high cost if it's damage over time is lowered.
    1 and 3 go togeather since its part of balancing it. if screaming shafts really hit that low but remember your a guardian. you guys are beasts

    Reavers:
    1. Lacerate is currently stackable but not removable. It should be both or neither.

    2. Conjunctions through Charge is just silly, Charge only lasts 7 seconds anyways.
    I think that should go for must DoTs. As to charge its not really silly before they could go in and get out totally without worry unless 3 rks critted epic conclusion. I think it adds a bit of risk.
    Warleaders:
    1. Rank 8 skill Menacing Roar should get an upgrade at Rank 10 to add a 3-5 second knockdown as well.

    2. Lower Armor Value on Warleaders by 1000(?).

    3. Change Snap Out Of It to remove Fears.

    4. Remove Rank 7 Command Post and Rank 12 Point-Defense's inductions seeing as how Captains have none.

    5. Fix Command Post and Point-Defense to stay with you on the battlefield until you move more than 30 meters away. It's already a pain to place it with a 3 second induction, and now it removes itself randomly even if you are directly next to it.
    my warleader is rank 2 and I don't really know anyone that pays a WL so...

    Only thing I'd like to comment is we really don't need another stun out there.

    Defilers:
    1. I noticed that all the debuffs Defilers get seem a bit powerful. Maybe lower the durations and/or extend the cooldowns?

    2. Maybe lower rez CD to 10s?
    Defilers really do get nice buffs they are the healers designed to take a beating. I think the debuffs and heals are really all they've got going for them I would say leave them be, but leaning towards a very small decrease.

    It is strange how the rez is on a 30s cd when traited.

    Wargs:
    1. Remove atleast one of their bleeds.
    I would say that is where warg dps comes from remove their bleeds and wargs will have nothing but TS for groups. I think at must make them curable.
    Creeps rely far too much on Damage Over Time to get kills, I've seen it on my Freep and Creep. Removing Creep Damage Over Times, Lowering them or even buffing other Creep Damage skills should balance it more.

    I almost said something about giving Creeps more Area Of Effects considering the Freeps dominate in that department. However, Creeps do have a 6-7 minute cooldown 5 target in combat rez, so that balances fairly evenly.

    I'm not trying to be biased to one side, just calling what I see. I play both sides fairly actively and love them almost equally. :P


    ~~Khronus of Windfola
    anyway hopefully thats a fair enough review in closing, most of your changes seem... focused and then its not really a PvMP revamp its more a patch for balance. in which case it would be a constant battle to get it right.

    Goneric
    Last edited by gonewhaned; Apr 20 2010 at 12:21 PM. Reason: Grammer nazis
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  16. #16
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeppelinCobalt View Post
    Conjunctions:

    1. Remove Conjunctions from PvP OR
    2. Change Conjunctions to be effected by Diminishing Returns OR
    3. Change Conjunction Immunity to prevent Conjunction Knockdown for the entire duration.


    Freepside:
    Minstrels:
    1. Lower Warspeech damage. The main 2 healing classes Freepside have more burst than they should.

    Just a couple of comments on the above.

    CJs are already on DR... couldn't tell? Thats because for some reason Turbine thinks that using the same table as they use for stuns/fears/mezzes is somehow useful in CJs. Who the hello is gonna survive being stunlocked 9 times before earning CJ immunity on the tenth application? Maybe if I had 15k+ morale and a pocket healer... Also, DR doesn't remove the stun lock it only causes the wheel not to pop up. Worthless. They need to either remove them completely or increase the timers on those skills vs players to at least a 15m cooldown with 1m CJ immunity after each successful application since there is no way to pot, miss, resist or mitigate against them.

    They finally got CC somewhat under control with DR and then increased the CJ chances to make it an even worse greybar fest out there. *sigh*


    If minstrel warspeech gets nerfed, minstrels should receive a huge morale boost. Compare creep healers to minstrels and you will see @2k - 5k morale difference on average for a well-geared mini. Equalize their ability to do damage with creep healers and they should be equalized via survivablility as well. (This comes from a non-WS moors mini btw.)


    /my 2 cents
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  17. #17
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aethniniel View Post
    Just a couple of comments on the above.

    CJs are already on DR... couldn't tell? Thats because for some reason Turbine thinks that using the same table as they use for stuns/fears/mezzes is somehow useful in CJs. Who the hello is gonna survive being stunlocked 9 times before earning CJ immunity on the tenth application? Maybe if I had 15k+ morale and a pocket healer... Also, DR doesn't remove the stun lock it only causes the wheel not to pop up. Worthless. They need to either remove them completely or increase the timers on those skills vs players to at least a 15m cooldown with 1m CJ immunity after each successful application since there is no way to pot, miss, resist or mitigate against them.

    They finally got CC somewhat under control with DR and then increased the CJ chances to make it an even worse greybar fest out there. *sigh*
    Agreed, CJs definitely need to be 100% effected by DR or not at all.... Which is why I like my 2nd suggestion the best. Well, it was originally third by I edited my post a bit. :P

    Speaking of stunlocked 9 times, on most of my deaths in the Moors I get rooted 2-3 times, stunned and CJed once, and riddled/mezzed another 5-10, no joke. I'm at 1k morale with a full raid on me and some burglar decides it's a good idea to waste ANOTHER riddle on me.... *sigh*


    If minstrel warspeech gets nerfed, minstrels should receive a huge morale boost. Compare creep healers to minstrels and you will see @2k - 5k morale difference on average for a well-geared mini. Equalize their ability to do damage with creep healers and they should be equalized via survivablility as well. (This comes from a non-WS moors mini btw.)
    If Minstrels want to DPS, they're playing the wrong class. And they can't give the "All I do is heal in PvE so I want a break" stuff. I always have to heal on my WL and I've never complained once, I rolled the class knowing fully what it was and expected nothing more.

    The reason Warleaders have so much health/armour is because they are a "Tank". It's a bit too much to ask Turbine to remove 70% of the armour and 50% of the health in exchange for some more healing.... =\
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  18. #18

    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by gonewhaned View Post

    Long post.

    Goneric
    For the love of English, most! :P

    Must != Most.

    Have a nice day.
    Last edited by Erelgal2; Apr 20 2010 at 01:48 PM.
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  19. #19
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Durfin, you and I both know you're biased towards creeps. You may "play both sides" but you play your creep MUCH more. Now, admittedly, I am biased towards freeps, because I play that side more, so there you go.

    I'll address your argument towards Minstrels. "You rolled a healing class to heal." No, I rolled a Minstrel to play the game. Unlike with creeps, where you can go roll the required class for your creep raid (I've heard "yeah, we need a healer for this, let me go get my Defiler" a lot on creepside), most people who play do not have multiple alts at max level. Really, I swear, it's true. Minstrel damage is absolutely necessary for PvE. I die trying to do Gathburz repeatables in my healing spec, even if I'm in Warspeech, because I just can't kill the mobs fast enough. You simply cannot equate creep healing classes to freep healing classes, because they are totally different beasts. You also did not address the survivability issue. Defilers and Warleaders have so much more survivability than Minstrels and healing Rune-keepers that it's unreal. A good Minstrel will have 5k morale. Even the lowest ranked creep healers have more, and once they have some ranks they have both way more morale and tons more mitigation. Oh, and every single bit of damage a Minstrel does is Light Damage... which you can buy corruptions for. If you're being hit by ubertastic Minstrels for insane amounts of damage (1.4k crit on Call to Fate, omg, that's almost 1/5th of your morale!!!), trait to mitigate it (also helps with LM damage and Warden LOL-damage).

    As for the BA only hitting you for a minimal amount of damage... that just shows that Guardians are overpowered. :-P

    Personally, I think Defilers should have no cooldown at all on their out-of-combat rez, but that's just me.

    Really, Durf, you and I just happen to play on one of the only servers that is still freep-dominated. I know it is frustrating, but PvMP in this game is really quite equal at the moment, barring the CJ-stun lock and a few other little things.
    Narlinde, level 100 Minstrel, Rank 11, Member of Trucido ~ Windfola

  20. #20
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erelgal2 View Post
    For the love of English, most! :P

    Must /= Most.

    Have a nice day.
    wow I don't know how I did that twice usually it only slips past me once edited for you <3 and thats all you saw lol and the proper code is must != most
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  21. #21
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan View Post
    Durfin, you and I both know you're biased towards creeps. You may "play both sides" but you play your creep MUCH more. Now, admittedly, I am biased towards freeps, because I play that side more, so there you go.

    I'll address your argument towards Minstrels. "You rolled a healing class to heal." No, I rolled a Minstrel to play the game. Unlike with creeps, where you can go roll the required class for your creep raid (I've heard "yeah, we need a healer for this, let me go get my Defiler" a lot on creepside), most people who play do not have multiple alts at max level. Really, I swear, it's true. Minstrel damage is absolutely necessary for PvE. I die trying to do Gathburz repeatables in my healing spec, even if I'm in Warspeech, because I just can't kill the mobs fast enough. You simply cannot equate creep healing classes to freep healing classes, because they are totally different beasts. You also did not address the survivability issue. Defilers and Warleaders have so much more survivability than Minstrels and healing Rune-keepers that it's unreal. A good Minstrel will have 5k morale. Even the lowest ranked creep healers have more, and once they have some ranks they have both way more morale and tons more mitigation. Oh, and every single bit of damage a Minstrel does is Light Damage... which you can buy corruptions for. If you're being hit by ubertastic Minstrels for insane amounts of damage (1.4k crit on Call to Fate, omg, that's almost 1/5th of your morale!!!), trait to mitigate it (also helps with LM damage and Warden LOL-damage).

    As for the BA only hitting you for a minimal amount of damage... that just shows that Guardians are overpowered. :-P

    Personally, I think Defilers should have no cooldown at all on their out-of-combat rez, but that's just me.

    Really, Durf, you and I just happen to play on one of the only servers that is still freep-dominated. I know it is frustrating, but PvMP in this game is really quite equal at the moment, barring the CJ-stun lock and a few other little things.
    Unless things have changed which I am sure they haven't, you still cannot mitigate tactical so you saying to trait to mitigate it is a useless thing to do. As for survivability, you kidding? Defilers if they have all their hots on can live through a lot, that much is true but a wl not so much. I have heard people complain that creep healing classes have way too much morale even though my wl with 10k morale can go from max to dead in the matter of just a couple seconds when freeps focus fire. Minstrels have a large variety of things that help them survive. You say a good minstrel has 5k morale, alright. But they can pop their bubble so that 5k suddenly becomes higher and of course play dead which you can sit out till the zerg comes to save you and lets not forget fellowships heart which is a what? 600+ hot over 30s? A healing class SHOULD NOT be able to hit as hard as they do, its absurd. PvE I guess I can get it even though on my minstrels (2 lvl 30+) I have no trouble soloing things out of war speech even fellowship quest. Yes it is low lvl stuff but still don't see why minstrels would complain unless they want to pull 8 mobs at a time and in that case its a matter of knowing your classes limits and not give us more dps.

    Ba's do need a boost. They damage they hit durf for on his guard is only a little different than the damage they hit me on my champ for. It's sad. On my creep I see htrs using swift bow and I think to myself, this is going to hurt. But on my freeps I see a ba using screaming shafts and I don't even care.

    If this server is so freep dominated then why do a whole lot of freeps complain about creeps being op?

  22. #22

    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Some things I agree with here, defiler rez CD, web the earth distance, and CJ immunity - I would actually prefer it if the target of a CJ was immune to all damage during the duration of the CJ, except for the actual CJ damage - that would be ideal. Too many times (99.9999%) of the time, no one even does a CJ, they just use it as a stun. I can actually count on one hand the number of times I have had an actual CJ done on me, but I can't count on all of your hands and toes the number of times I have been greybarred and killed while chillin' out in a stupid CJ stun.

    I play one of the few healing minstrels out there, gladly and freely blasting heals to anything and everything I can until I die from a CJ stun (approximately 17 seconds on average) and so you might think I would be fine with taking WS damage away - but no, sadly, this is not the case. WS has little place in a raid when folks need a healer, but it's the only way to have any chance at all to survive against a creep when you're in a small group or solo. And by 'any chance at all', I literally mean 'very little chance at all' of course.

    Minstrels (even me, occasionally) need more DPS. I would also make the argument that they need more survivability... it's pathetic to see an entire group of geared-out end-game freeps having to work so hard to take down a single warleader or defiler, and if there are multiple warleaders or defilers, fuggetaboutit, amirite? How much time and effort does it take to burn down a minstrel?
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  23. #23
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by nuance View Post
    Some things I agree with here, defiler rez CD, web the earth distance, and CJ immunity - I would actually prefer it if the target of a CJ was immune to all damage during the duration of the CJ, except for the actual CJ damage - that would be ideal. Too many times (99.9999%) of the time, no one even does a CJ, they just use it as a stun. I can actually count on one hand the number of times I have had an actual CJ done on me, but I can't count on all of your hands and toes the number of times I have been greybarred and killed while chillin' out in a stupid CJ stun.

    I play one of the few healing minstrels out there, gladly and freely blasting heals to anything and everything I can until I die from a CJ stun (approximately 17 seconds on average) and so you might think I would be fine with taking WS damage away - but no, sadly, this is not the case. WS has little place in a raid when folks need a healer, but it's the only way to have any chance at all to survive against a creep when you're in a small group or solo. And by 'any chance at all', I literally mean 'very little chance at all' of course.

    Minstrels (even me, occasionally) need more DPS. I would also make the argument that they need more survivability... it's pathetic to see an entire group of geared-out end-game freeps having to work so hard to take down a single warleader or defiler, and if there are multiple warleaders or defilers, fuggetaboutit, amirite? How much time and effort does it take to burn down a minstrel?
    So Narlinde says minstrels need their dps and you say minstrels need more dps? That is like a lore master saying, "We need more cc and damage."

    When I am on my war leader I usually get zerged and targeted in maybe the same time you stated you do, if a certain group of people are out its almost as soon as I go to heal the first person being targeted but you don't see me saying war leaders need more dps just because of that. War leader dps sucks but I still solo on it looking for ganks and as everyone should know war leaders don't have back to back skills that can crit for insane amounts of damage.

    I can't count how many times I have beaten a bigger force with just a couple people and a healing class actually healing. Just because they people you group with probably lack skills to make them efficient players doesn't mean you "need" more dps, you just want more dps. There is a big difference between the two. When freeps are playing good minstrels are hard to take down, when creeps are their healers are. In my opinion it is just that simple. You aren't alone there as a healer, that is why there are support classes out there on each side. Maybe yell at your champs to do a better job?

    As for the cj stun, creeps contributing to it is just about pointless. Creep cjs are horrible unless you get off a couple of the 5 or 6 man ones but it is rare you actually will see creeps try to pull that off in amongst an actual fight. But hey if you want to see creeps contributing to cjs and only the damage being done to the target from the cj itself then alright, just as soon as turbine brings creeps back the purple cj.

  24. #24

    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by gonewhaned View Post
    wow I don't know how I did that twice usually it only slips past me once edited for you <3 and thats all you saw lol and the proper code is must != most
    Thanks for the correction. My grasp of English is 10x better than my programming..heh.
    Also, its not all I saw, it was just something that stood out, the most lol.
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  25. #25
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    Re: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

    the only thing I agree with this post is to lower the defiler res CD to 10s


    lawl
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