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  1. #126
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Can you pot out of an AoE snare? Yes, it is a no-brainer.
    There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them.


  2. #127
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    I disagree because in the current environment of DR, an AOE snare is A LOT more valuable than an AOE root. This choice would be a no-brainer and this trait would become "must slot".

    I do not think weavers need a ranged snare at this time.
    but it's not just a simple swap out, it also involves a trait slot.

    I would have to give up one of the following in order to slot the new trait for the snare:

    Shelobs gift
    Armor Boost
    Steelweave
    Swiftweave
    Health Boost

    It's not a no brainer as I have proposed the tradeoff should be. Sure if I didn't have to drop one of my current class traits, it would be a no brainer...factor in the trait slot, and the equation changes significantly.
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  3. #128

    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by NYSEguy1970 View Post
    but it's not just a simple swap out, it also involves a trait slot.

    I would have to give up one of the following in order to slot the new trait for the snare:

    Shelobs gift
    Armor Boost
    Steelweave
    Swiftweave
    Health Boost
    A ranged snare would be significantly better than either Steelweave or Swiftweave, in my opinion.
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  4. #129
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Steelweave isn't really that great.
    There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them.


  5. #130
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    Steelweave isn't really that great.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamers View Post
    A ranged snare would be significantly better than either Steelweave or Swiftweave, in my opinion.
    is a ranged snare better than Steelweave or Swiftweave AND the AOE root?

    I'm not sure its worth loosing the aoe root and having to drop a class trait slot to have the snare.

    I'm not sure it's not worth it either, but IMO loosing an aoe root and essentially a class trait slot as well for a ranged snare makes it a decision that needs to be contemplated, and I suspect that you would have weavers falling on either side of that decision, which IMO is a great indication of balance....
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  6. #131

    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    Can you pot out of an AoE snare? Yes, it is a no-brainer.
    The specifics of the slow was never discussed. It could very well be a pottable effect.

    Saying it is a no-brainer but failing to admit (or simply denying) the many situations where a root>slow simply shows your incompetence of tactics and class ability.

  7. #132
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyloo22546 View Post
    Spiders: WtE is better than anything a RK has to kite with. WtE CANNOT be b/p/e, CANNOT be resisted, CANNOT be Potted. It allows you to gain plenty of distance to where spider DPS will kill the target. Not to mention a CJ starter (on a seperate DR which means this will take full effect) and +10% incombat run speed.

    On top of that...you have a root, aoe root, a mez, a stun.

    RKs: well...distracting winds can be resisted and only 5-10m range I think. Chilling rhetoric can be resisted and potted (removed completely). All that is left is a stun (which has a % chance to proc), and two melee mezzes. Weren't you the one crying about CC earlier cuz of DR making it not effective, so why even try to claim it as effective CC now?

    Spiders >> Kiting ability than RKs.
    WTE last 10 sec... loll the slow that RK apply last longer, the only way to kill a RK with a weaver is to melee them to max out the dps cause you cannot kite them because of that ranged slow. Please stop talking about WTE like it is a godlike skill ..

    Anny way this tread should be close, i think majority of people disagree with the idea.
    I dont mind, anny way freeps are supose to be more skilled than creeps. Thats the lore.
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  8. #133
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by ti-pere3 View Post
    WTE last 10 sec... loll the slow that RK apply last longer
    Chilling Rhetoric is a 10 second slow by default on a 30 second cooldown.

    Traiting Icy Discourse turns it from a 70% slow to a 30% slow for the remaining duration of the skill after you take damage.

    Having a LI with Chill of Winter Debuff Duration and another LI with Chilling Rhetoric cooldown to get it to a 20 second slow with a 20 second cooldown. - Most dps runekeepers aren't using these in favor of more damaging skills. (though I do use both - but I heal, not dps)

    Thought I would help you out here since you don't seem to know anything about the skill since you just assume it's longer than web the earth or that every runekeeper you fight has a stone and satchel with both those legendaries.
    Last edited by Megas; Apr 21 2010 at 11:08 AM.

  9. #134
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by Megas View Post
    Chilling Rhetoric is a 10 second slow by default on a 20 second cooldown.

    Traiting Icy Discourse turns it from a 70% slow to a 30% slow for the remaining duration of the skill after you take damage.

    Having a LI with Chill of Winter Debuff Duration and another LI with Chilling Rhetoric cooldown to get it to a 20 second slow with a 10 second cooldown. - Most dps runekeepers aren't using these in favor of more damaging skills. (though I do use both - but I heal, not dps)

    Thought I would help you out here since you don't seem to know anything about the skill since you just assume it's longer than web the earth or that every runekeeper you fight has a stone and satchel with both those legendaries.
    Fixed
    12314354353
    Last edited by striker383; Apr 21 2010 at 12:49 PM.
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  10. #135

    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by ti-pere3 View Post
    WTE last 10 sec... loll the slow that RK apply last longer, the only way to kill a RK with a weaver is to melee them to max out the dps cause you cannot kite them because of that ranged slow. Please stop talking about WTE like it is a godlike skill ..
    You have to know your full weaver skillset and how to properly use it against each class. I'm not saying WtE alone is godlike, but when you COMBINE it with the weaver skillset, it is indeed very powerful. I would think a R10 spider would know that by now.

    Btw...i'd say the average RK's slow is 15s duration(or less) on a 10s cooldown(or more) and the liklihood of a RK keeping the spider slowed once in melee range is slim. I've seen some RKs that don't even trait for the slow.

  11. #136
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Possibilities: Change the r11 trait from -5cd to latent to adds 15% slow for 10 to LK, curable via poison cure/pot.


    Something I'd love to see:

    R10 Advanced Skill: Acid pool. Effects Web the Earth. WtE gains a 2s induction, the slow is reduced to 25% but a 200 acid bleed every 3s for 15s is added.

  12. #137

    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    man this thread is ridiculous. If anything spiders need a nerf

    theyre dot of up to 200 has no induction and does 350-500 damage on initial hits also have a melee dot

    they drain power with an irremovable dot

    they have 3k heals by rank 9 for a super short cooldown

    web the earth can slow an entire raid of freeps behind them even after they step out of the poorly animated spot of the webbing for 10 seconds(the area of the skill is huge yet it only shows half of whats really there) not to mention the 10 seconds on the slow are renewed if you land in the webbing again

    not only do they have "trap door sanctuary" for get aways but "lie in wait" makes them the only class in the game unable to be tracked

    they can range dps while on the move like RK's can (maybe not as hard but my hunter would love to shoot while moving)

    they have up to 5 pets they can spawn (only class in the game with more than 1 pet)

    they can CJ enemies from 10 meters away (only class in the game that can CJ from range, though it maybe not be much range its still far from melee range)

    they can root (might i add also that theyr root is ALOT stronger than my rain of thorns)

    they can stun and mezz targets like burglars

    lets also make believe that the "catch prey" is not OP either....it decreases the targets block/parry/evade by 1300 each and adds it to the spiders b/p/e, since its a channeling skill it stays on as long as the spider is near the target. (someone tell me where is the spiders shield for these "blocks"?)

    spiders are also naturally faster than a freep whether in or out of combat

    im sure ive missed more stuff but whatever im done here.


    no complaining should ever come from a spider
    I do it for the lulz. ~SnH~
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  13. #138

    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by ti-pere3 View Post
    WTE last 10 sec... loll the slow that RK apply last longer, the only way to kill a RK with a weaver is to melee them to max out the dps cause you cannot kite them because of that ranged slow. Please stop talking about WTE like it is a godlike skill ..

    Anny way this tread should be close, i think majority of people disagree with the idea.
    I dont mind, anny way freeps are supose to be more skilled than creeps. Thats the lore.
    hah i think tiper is just mad that he cant beat runekeepers in a 1v1..not enough that he can beat every other class
    I do it for the lulz. ~SnH~
    People @ turbine/WB are a huge tease, but dont worry they end up screwing you on every update/expansion.
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  14. #139
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by sebo2yoface View Post
    man this thread is ridiculous. If anything spiders need a nerf

    1. theyre dot of up to 200 has no induction and does 350-500 damage on initial hits also have a melee dot

    2. they drain power with an irremovable dot

    3. they have 3k heals by rank 9 for a super short cooldown

    4. web the earth can slow an entire raid of freeps behind them even after they step out of the poorly animated spot of the webbing for 10 seconds(the area of the skill is huge yet it only shows half of whats really there) not to mention the 10 seconds on the slow are renewed if you land in the webbing again

    5. not only do they have "trap door sanctuary" for get aways but "lie in wait" makes them the only class in the game unable to be tracked

    6. they can range dps while on the move like RK's can (maybe not as hard but my hunter would love to shoot while moving)

    7. they have up to 5 pets they can spawn (only class in the game with more than 1 pet)

    8. they can CJ enemies from 10 meters away (only class in the game that can CJ from range, though it maybe not be much range its still far from melee range)

    9. they can root (might i add also that theyr root is ALOT stronger than my rain of thorns)

    10. they can stun and mezz targets like burglars

    11. lets also make believe that the "catch prey" is not OP either....it decreases the targets block/parry/evade by 1300 each and adds it to the spiders b/p/e, since its a channeling skill it stays on as long as the spider is near the target. (someone tell me where is the spiders shield for these "blocks"?)

    12. spiders are also naturally faster than a freep whether in or out of combat

    13. im sure ive missed more stuff but whatever im done here.

    14. no complaining should ever come from a spider
    1. And ONE Hunter can effectively "block" the DoTs of 9 spiders with their cleanse. This is more or less the only damage attack we have also (at least that makes sense) apart from our melee PA.

    2. Best used on Burgs trying to HiPS. Not good enough to cause a panic on any willpower class.

    3. On death response. Good skill I agree, but dont forget that little detail making it obsolete in most 1vs1s.

    4. Our only slow. Totally agree they should enlarge the graphic tho.

    5. Trapdoor Sanctuary is a poor get away skill and people only track for Wargs anyway. You trade mobility for extreme stealth. The ONLY other stealth there is on the Creep side apart from Wargs. Now start count the Freep stealths (Captain being the ONLY class that doesnt have a possibility to stealth or did I miss some other?)

    6. Hunters can too, not as good tho Youre forgetting Minis are run and gun aswell and with a way higher DPS than a spider. Lets not start on the RKs. Either way dont make it sound like we are even remotely comparable to a WS Mini or a RK. We are at the bottom of the totempole of DPS.

    7. Quite uncontrollable and they are only 3. Did I mention they just lost their slowing ability, making it extremly easy to kite them due to their slow speed.

    8. Its also not run and gun and with an induction on it. Without the 10m range it would be basicly impossible to get it onto a moving target.

    9. Your rain of thorns are an area attack that can root several people and I definatly doubt our root is stronger. What is stronger tho is Hunters traps. Our own DoT mechanic makes roots kinda useless after an initial attack aswell.

    10. We have one of each. On stun that triggers on a timer, which gives target plenty of time getting it potted or removed by skill. Mezz I like tho, good opener, but same as root our own DoT mechanic usually makes it useless in the rest of the fight.

    11. Breaks on any mezz, stun etc. with a long CD. Considering that basicly ALL Freep classes have some form of stun, mess, fear etc. its not as useful as you make it to be.

    12. I usually cant escape from Freeps no matter what these days. Usually dies with even WtE down, Brand and my "incredible" +10% speed. Freeps have enough slows, sprints and horses to make the +10% perfectly valid.

    13. Im sure you havent played a spider ever.

    14. Dont think theres been much complaining from spiders lately. I think OP expressed a wish and ended up with an unlucky thread naming. Weve been thru this in the rest of the thread already.

    Just wanted to tune down your criticism of spiders. You basicly pointed at every skill we have and screamed OP!

    I invite you to come over to Brandywine and join me on a spider and I will personally show you the ropes. I think you will change your mind about the spiders greatly in just a couple of hours or a day.

    /Silkdawn
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  15. #140
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by sebo2yoface View Post

    they have 3k heals by rank 9 for a super short cooldown
    Requires defeat response and rank NINE.

    Quote Originally Posted by sebo2yoface View Post
    they can range dps while on the move like RK's can (maybe not as hard but my hunter would love to shoot while moving)
    I would love to be able to one shot freeps constantly like your hunter, or spam a 40% slow, or pour out the dps you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by sebo2yoface View Post
    they have up to 5 pets they can spawn (only class in the game with more than 1 pet)
    3 pets. 3 SWARM pets, on a 2 min CD, 45s duration, that we can't control, only dismiss. Free defeat responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by sebo2yoface View Post
    they can CJ enemies from 10 meters away (only class in the game that can CJ from range, though it maybe not be much range its still far from melee range)
    Ever heard of the lore-masters bog lurker?
    Ours is also the only one with an induction.

    Quote Originally Posted by sebo2yoface View Post
    they can root (might i add also that theyr root is ALOT stronger than my rain of thorns)
    Rofl pigs @rse it is. 3 target, 2 min CD, 4m radius. Compared to RoT 7m radius, up to 10 targets with a legacy, 5 without. Can't remember the CD. Oh and The Aoe root is RANK NINE.

    Quote Originally Posted by sebo2yoface View Post
    they can stun and mezz targets like burglars
    Dimishing returns kinda negates this. So does pots. We're supposed to be a CC class.

  16. #141
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by sebo2yoface View Post
    they can CJ enemies from 10 meters away (only class in the game that can CJ from range, though it maybe not be much range its still far from melee range)
    Juste wanted to say that the Warden have a lot more range for is conjonction starter and i think its instant cast, not sure.

    Like i said, i dont mind if the weaver stay like it is right now, the name of this tread should be changed, i juste think in general there should be more flexibility to biuld a creeps, At R10 and 11 the new trait are desapointing thats why i though about a ranged slow.

    I dont want to get poeple mad in this discution.
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  17. #142
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by ti-pere3 View Post
    Juste wanted to say that the Warden have a lot more range for is conjonction starter and i think its instant cast, not sure.
    The warden skill 'ambush' is a 5s induction, 30m range, that hits a creep with a 5s KNOCKDOWN. Brands prevent it, cannot be potted. Does not start a CJ, shares DR. If the warden is in stealth (racial, share the fun, careful step), it removes the induction.

  18. #143
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Thx you for clarify. I got knocked down so many time by a warden that i couldnt pot. This is a nice skill.
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  19. #144
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by sebo2yoface View Post
    man this thread is ridiculous. If anything spiders need a nerf

    theyre dot of up to 200 has no induction and does 350-500 damage on initial hits also have a melee dot
    I can dev crit an NPC for mid 500s on TK. To say 350-500 on the initial damage for TK is stretching things quite a bit. Against heavy armor classes, I'm hitting for less than 200 and for light armor classes I might approach 300.

    My dot also doesn't hit for 200 after mitigation...sub 100 on heavy armor wearers, and 160ish IIRC on light armor wearers

    I'll pay closer attention to make sure, but IIRC my power drain dot against a burg last night was about 90 to power, high 200's on initial TK and high/mid 100's on the TK dot.

    they drain power with an irremovable dot
    it doesn't stack and ICPR is more than enough to keep up with the amount of the drain.

    they have 3k heals by rank 9 for a super short cooldown
    true, our on defeat heal is on a 45 second cd and quite powerful, especially in a raid or group. Like Evil said, it's sort of useless in 1v1s.

    OFC rank 9 is a very high rank for a weaver....I believe there are less than 50 amongst all of the servers that are currently capable of using that heal.

    web the earth can slow an entire raid of freeps behind them even after they step out of the poorly animated spot of the webbing for 10 seconds(the area of the skill is huge yet it only shows half of whats really there) not to mention the 10 seconds on the slow are renewed if you land in the webbing again
    I will echo what other weavers have stated in their support for fixing the graphical under-representation of the AOE of the web.

    If the slow lasted longer than 10 seconds, I'd say it would be OP'd, but a 10 second, 40% slow in the continuum of slows on the freep and creep side is about the middle. There are some pretty powerful slows that last 30 seconds and are as great of a magnitude and applicable at range freeps can use.

    not only do they have "trap door sanctuary" for get aways but "lie in wait" makes them the only class in the game unable to be tracked
    I'd be willing to be tracked, if I could move while in stealth. There is a reason wargs pick up a lot more INF relative to Weavers, even though we can't be tracked. We have to pick our spot and wait for someone unsuspecting to come by...if nothing comes by we can't go looking for someone to ambush while still in stealth.

    I actually think it's a pretty fair tradeoff that while burrowed we can't be tracked. Otherwise our burrow would be our coffins....which is what TDS is most often. TDS does allow for getaways sometimes, but most of the time it serves as a 60 second unlimited target root with the weaver's death at expiration.

    they can range dps while on the move like RK's can (maybe not as hard but my hunter would love to shoot while moving)
    Comparing a run and gun RK to a Weaver....the dps isn't even close. RK's run and gun is far superior....so are Minis. It's helpful and an advantage until you look at RKs and Minis in terms of run and gun capability.

    they have up to 5 pets they can spawn (only class in the game with more than 1 pet)
    I understand that even 3 swarm rated uncontrollable pets are a problem for induction heavy classes. (and it is only 3 at a time, not 5) I've seen a single bog lurker kill all 3 hatchlings before they despawn. I've seen LM pets crit/dev crit higher than I can crit/dev crit for.

    they can CJ enemies from 10 meters away (only class in the game that can CJ from range, though it maybe not be much range its still far from melee range)
    true, and it's helpful, but with an induction and unable to start the cj while in a stealth position, it's not all that hard to get out of the 10m range or break los by running behind an object or through the weaver trying to get it off. Again, a good skill, but not OP'd as you seem to imply.

    they can root (might i add also that theyr root is ALOT stronger than my rain of thorns)
    ROT and weaver root is the same strength IIRC

    they can stun and mezz targets like burglars
    interesting that as the primary CC class you are comparing our CC ability to a burg who's not a primary freep CC class. It just serves to demonstrate how diverse the CC power is across freeps, that even a non primary freep cc class warrants a comparison to THE primary creep CC class.

    lets also make believe that the "catch prey" is not OP either....it decreases the targets block/parry/evade by 1300 each and adds it to the spiders b/p/e, since its a channeling skill it stays on as long as the spider is near the target. (someone tell me where is the spiders shield for these "blocks"?)
    If I use my forearm to stop your arm trying to swing a sword, is that not a block? Also, creeps are built from NPC templates where the b/p/e is really treated as one total figure. AFAIK the b/p/e is a distinction made due to response triggers for the PVE world

    spiders are also naturally faster than a freep whether in or out of combat
    I would argue that OOC that is not the case. I have never seen a freep without an OOC run buff of some sort active, and horses provide a faster speed OOC than the 10% racial buff of weavers.

    I'm not trying to minimize the benefit. It's still very beneficial, but the assertion that the 10% speed is OP'd is not something I agree with. Freeps, with their OOC speed buffs/horses are much faster than me and my racial. the key for a freep is to remain ooc long enough to make up the distance so they have closed the gap, instead of trying to shoot at extreme range and thereby loose their OOC run speed buff.

    Many freeps on BW are pretty smart about this, and will remain horsed up and dismount ahead of the weaver or will close to less than extreme range under the OOC speed buffs before initiating combat.

    im sure ive missed more stuff but whatever im done here.
    my 3 year old does the same thing. My 12 year old has learned that continuing to engage in the dialogue is the best way to advocate your position....even if folks don't agree.


    no complaining should ever come from a spider
    there will be, inevitably, things that need fixing and would warrant a complaint, no matter what class you play.

    There will always be debate on how to best tweak a class and discussion on buff/nerfs/modifications.

    The weaver is not perfect...therefore open discussion of changes is absolutely warranted.

    Perhaps you should play a weaver (I didn't see one in your siggy) to get a better appreciation of the challenges it presents as well as it's unique strengths before you say things like the petulant last line of your post.

    You had a fair (though I disagree with the points) presentation of your position until your last line.
    Last edited by NYSEguy1970; Apr 28 2010 at 10:17 AM.
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  20. #145
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by sebo2yoface View Post
    man this thread is ridiculous. If anything spiders need a nerf

    theyre dot of up to 200 has no induction and does 350-500 damage on initial hits also have a melee dot

    they drain power with an irremovable dot

    they have 3k heals by rank 9 for a super short cooldown

    web the earth can slow an entire raid of freeps behind them even after they step out of the poorly animated spot of the webbing for 10 seconds(the area of the skill is huge yet it only shows half of whats really there) not to mention the 10 seconds on the slow are renewed if you land in the webbing again

    not only do they have "trap door sanctuary" for get aways but "lie in wait" makes them the only class in the game unable to be tracked

    they can range dps while on the move like RK's can (maybe not as hard but my hunter would love to shoot while moving)

    they have up to 5 pets they can spawn (only class in the game with more than 1 pet)

    they can CJ enemies from 10 meters away (only class in the game that can CJ from range, though it maybe not be much range its still far from melee range)

    they can root (might i add also that theyr root is ALOT stronger than my rain of thorns)

    they can stun and mezz targets like burglars

    lets also make believe that the "catch prey" is not OP either....it decreases the targets block/parry/evade by 1300 each and adds it to the spiders b/p/e, since its a channeling skill it stays on as long as the spider is near the target. (someone tell me where is the spiders shield for these "blocks"?)

    spiders are also naturally faster than a freep whether in or out of combat

    im sure ive missed more stuff but whatever im done here.


    no complaining should ever come from a spider
    LM's can get off a ranged CJ with the lurker (although it's not dependable and nobody uses the lurker).

  21. #146
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Thanks Nidor and Evil, you tore him apart better than me

    /Silkdawn
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  22. #147

    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by NYSEguy1970 View Post
    I can dev crit an NPC for mid 500s on TK. To say 350-500 on the initial damage for TK is stretching things quite a bit. Against heavy armor classes, I'm hitting for less than 200 and for light armor classes I might approach 300. My dot also doesn't hit for 200 after mitigation...sub 100 on heavy armor wearers, and 160ish IIRC on light armor wearers

    I'll pay closer attention to make sure, but IIRC my power drain dot against a burg last night was about 90 to power, high 200's on initial TK and high/mid 100's on the TK dot.

    it doesn't stack and ICPR is more than enough to keep up with the amount of the drain.

    true, our on defeat heal is on a 45 second cd and quite powerful, especially in a raid or group. Like Evil said, it's sort of useless in 1v1s.

    OFC rank 9 is a very high rank for a weaver....I believe there are less than 50 amongst all of the servers that are currently capable of using that heal.

    I will echo what other weavers have stated in their support for fixing the graphical under-representation of the AOE of the web.

    If the slow lasted longer than 10 seconds, I'd say it would be OP'd, but a 10 second, 40% slow in the continuum of slows on the freep and creep side is about the middle. There are some pretty powerful slows that last 30 seconds and are as great of a magnitude and applicable at range freeps can use.

    I'd be willing to be tracked, if I could move while in stealth. There is a reason wargs pick up a lot more INF relative to Weavers, even though we can't be tracked. We have to pick our spot and wait for someone unsuspecting to come by...if nothing comes by we can't go looking for someone to ambush while still in stealth.

    I actually think it's a pretty fair tradeoff that while burrowed we can't be tracked. Otherwise our burrow would be our coffins....which is what TDS is most often. TDS does allow for getaways sometimes, but most of the time it serves as a 60 second unlimited target root with the weaver's death at expiration.

    Comparing a run and gun RK to a Weaver....the dps isn't even close. RK's run and gun is far superior....so are Minis. It's helpful and an advantage until you look at RKs and Minis in terms of run and gun capability.

    I understand that even 3 swarm rated uncontrollable pets are a problem for induction heavy classes. (and it is only 3 at a time, not 5) I've seen a single bog lurker kill all 3 hatchlings before they despawn. I've seen LM pets crit/dev crit higher than I can crit/dev crit for.

    true, and it's helpful, but with an induction and unable to start the cj while in a stealth position, it's not all that hard to get out of the 10m range or break los by running behind an object or through the weaver trying to get it off. Again, a good skill, but not OP'd as you seem to imply.

    ROT and weaver root is the same strength IIRC

    interesting that as the primary CC class you are comparing our CC ability to a burg who's not a primary freep CC class. It just serves to demonstrate how diverse the CC power is across freeps, that even a non primary freep cc class warrants a comparison to THE primary creep CC class.

    If I use my forearm to stop your arm trying to swing a sword, is that not a block? Also, creeps are built from NPC templates where the b/p/e is really treated as one total figure. AFAIK the b/p/e is a distinction made due to response triggers for the PVE world

    I would argue that OOC that is not the case. I have never seen a freep without an OOC run buff of some sort active, and horses provide a faster speed OOC than the 10% racial buff of weavers.

    I'm not trying to minimize the benefit. It's still very beneficial, but the assertion that the 10% speed is OP'd is not something I agree with. Freeps, with their OOC speed buffs/horses are much faster than me and my racial. the key for a freep is to remain ooc long enough to make up the distance so they have closed the gap, instead of trying to shoot at extreme range and thereby loose their OOC run speed buff.

    Many freeps on BW are pretty smart about this, and will remain horsed up and dismount ahead of the weaver or will close to less than extreme range under the OOC speed buffs before initiating combat.

    my 3 year old does the same thing. My 12 year old has learned that continuing to engage in the dialogue is the best way to advocate your position....even if folks don't agree.


    there will be, inevitably, things that need fixing and would warrant a complaint, no matter what class you play.

    There will always be debate on how to best tweak a class and discussion on buff/nerfs/modifications.

    The weaver is not perfect...therefore open discussion of changes is absolutely warranted.

    Perhaps you should play a weaver (I didn't see one in your siggy) to get a better appreciation of the challenges it presents as well as it's unique strengths before you say things like the petulant last line of your post.

    You had a fair (though I disagree with the points) presentation of your position until your last line.
    I've seen spiders dev crit for 600+ in damage build on initial TK. And their tooltip is like 197 tick and crits for a decent amount. Also...unless freeps use +10 rad AND 3 in purple set, they all have relatively the same acid mitigation (15-20%). Light armour can get more acid mitigation than heavy armour if they chose to and the heavy armour don't wear 3 of each set. How many really wear 3 +10 rad and 3 purple non-rad set tho? On top of that...if they don't have to be moving they have a ranged auto attack (I believe it misses if you are moving). RKs and Mini's do NOT have a ranged auto attack. So even tho you might hit for 250-600 an initial hit, you get an auto attack inbetween if you are standing still which creates a "hidden dps factor" you bias spiders seem to forget.


    The power drain...even tho you are Health Build lets use your numbers (even if they are wrong, cuz your other info seems to be off <absolute low end if not lower>). 90 per tick = 1,800 power/minute WITHOUT crits (and cannot be resisted). So how is ICPR going make up for it when they are LOSING power not doing anything?...and on top of that when they use skills, the power goes down even faster (skills consume power). If you are damage spec'd spiders, the numbers are higher. Completely creep bias skewed statement you made about your power drain. Oh, and if a person is out of power, putting a power drain on them will keep them out of power for the duration of the power drain = makes a freep useless for 30s+ (and spiders can reapply it). And this is on top of CCing, DoTing, and debuffing other targets that aren't being rendered completely useless by your power drain.


    I thought WtE was a 50% slow (not 40%...). Again, trying to understate numbers to skew one's vision?

    You basically just said that in order for freeps to catch a spider they have to drop combat to get the OOC from a hunter...or mount up. And dropping combat = not attacking. Oh, you also said a freep which means, you drop combat yourself and can use +20% OOC pot giving you 130% runspeed while out of combat which is >> than any other class (greater than hunter runspeed). That now means it requires 2+ freeps to catch 1 spiders (aka the spider is out numbered). If they mount up you can simply turn and root them and run again always being ahead or lay WtE again. 30% OOC will get you a long ways before they catch you anyways and will likely be safe. So...thats odd. It basically requires a spider to be out numbered in order to catch it. The +10% runspeed to spiders is definately a nice addition to the class...again you understate how well +10% runspeed works even tho you said (what it comes down to) it takes 2+ freeps to catch your spider.

    I'm not even going through the whole list. But your Spider Bias shows to an extreme.

  23. #148
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyloo22546 View Post
    I've seen spiders dev crit for 600+ in damage build on initial TK.
    That's fine. I don't doubt your experience. I have never dev critted against an equal level freep for anything near that high. Even when I ran with a full DPS build, the highest I ever hit npcs was 550ish....Real Freeps have better mits and were equal levels.

    Now if you are talking about a 600 dev crit against a 40 freep, then that's an interesting bias of your own.

    This is my experience, now granted...I don't know what kind of gear Tub has, but this combat log seemed pretty ordinary as far as my experience goes.



    So from that log....

    125 pts of Acid from the TK dot (Line 1 and working down)
    270 pts of Acid from an initial TK application
    80 pts of Power damage from Toxin
    125 pts from the TK dot
    120 pts to power from a Tox Dot crit
    125 pts TK Dot
    72 pts from my auto attack

    etc.

    My numbers are right on. I welcome any corrections, but you are making up numbers to support your bias. I have proof of my numbers and basis for my observations, which supports what I've said.

    also, because of the change to damage build stacking, not everyone runs with a full bore DPS build weaver. So you are trying to compare apples to my orange weaver.

    And their tooltip is like 197 tick and crits for a decent amount. Also...unless freeps use +10 rad AND 3 in purple set, they all have relatively the same acid mitigation (15-20%). Light armour can get more acid mitigation than heavy armour if they chose to and the heavy armour don't wear 3 of each set. How many really wear 3 +10 rad and 3 purple non-rad set tho? On top of that...if they don't have to be moving they have a ranged auto attack (I believe it misses if you are moving). RKs and Mini's do NOT have a ranged auto attack. So even tho you might hit for 250-600 an initial hit, you get an auto attack inbetween if you are standing still which creates a "hidden dps factor" you bias spiders seem to forget.
    yes...my 72 point auto attack that only works if i'm not moving. OP'd...

    and you still are going off with your 250-600 hit...again...like many a freep defending the big guns on their side...(RK EC Dev crit or hunter Dev crits) not every hit of TK is a dev crit. To use the extreme highest possible damage as your baseline is egregious bias on your own part. I HAVE NEVER HIT AN NPC FOR 600 ON A DEV CRIT MUCH LESS A FREEP FOR THAT AMOUNT. PERIOD. I would bet my toon and delete it if that turned out to be incorrect, that's how certain I am of that fact.

    The power drain...even tho you are Health Build lets use your numbers (even if they are wrong, cuz your other info seems to be off <absolute low end if not lower>).
    yup wrong, I OVERSTATED the hit for non crits by 10 pts...the normal tick was actually 10 pts lower... and I also OVERSTATED the TK dot amount by 40ish points....ROFL...but anyway, I digress...

    90 80 per tick = 1,800 power/minute WITHOUT crits (and cannot be resisted). So how is ICPR going make up for it when they are LOSING power not doing anything?...
    don't you gain power not doing anything? (and health for that matter)

    IDK what your ICPR is or what Tub's was...however I notice that Toxin alone doesn't really make a dent in the power pools of freeps I use it against. It only has any value w/a banner (thereby killing the regen of power), if the freep is low on power already it will keep them low (the ICPR seems to be enough to keep up with the drain, but not outpace), and for knocking burgs out of stealth after they've hips'd, or in conjunction with LP/Hatch

    and on top of that when they use skills, the power goes down even faster (skills consume power). If you are damage spec'd spiders, the numbers are higher. Completely creep bias skewed statement you made about your power drain.
    Yup...MY bias because I overstated how much damage my TOX dot did...

    Oh, and if a person is out of power, putting a power drain on them will keep them out of power for the duration of the power drain = makes a freep useless for 30s+ (and spiders can reapply it). And this is on top of CCing, DoTing, and debuffing other targets that aren't being rendered completely useless by your power drain.
    I agree with you here, as this is a tactic I use. I try to identify freeps who have less than half of their power pools remaining and try to get tox on them to force them to manage their power consumption or risk running out of power. Most useful in protracted raid on raid fights when power management becomes an issue as the fight continues. OFC a power pot does offer a bit of respite from being completely useless because of my power drain...lawl.


    I thought WtE was a 50% slow (not 40%...). Again, trying to understate numbers to skew one's vision?
    I could be mistaken, I thought is was a 40% slow. If I mis-stated, it wasn't intentional.

    You basically just said that in order for freeps to catch a spider they have to drop combat to get the OOC from a hunter...or mount up.
    I guess it's not possible that a freep would already be OOC upon seeing a spider eh? Or that they would already be mounted up? Couldn't ever happen.

    And dropping combat = not attacking. Oh, you also said a freep which means, you drop combat yourself and can use +20% OOC pot giving you 130% runspeed while out of combat which is >> than any other class (greater than hunter runspeed).
    Well, nonmoronic freeps on BW have strats that can keep a creep incombat while others in the group can drop combat in order to mount up or use run buffs. When you grow up, you might sit at the adult table to learn this stuff.

    That now means it requires 2+ freeps to catch 1 spiders (aka the spider is out numbered). If they mount up you can simply turn and root them and run again always being ahead or lay WtE again. 30% OOC will get you a long ways before they catch you anyways and will likely be safe. So...thats odd. It basically requires a spider to be out numbered in order to catch it. The +10% runspeed to spiders is definately a nice addition to the class...again you understate how well +10% runspeed works even tho you said (what it comes down to) it takes 2+ freeps to catch your spider.
    a single burg and mez me and run away while I can't follow...it takes...WAHHH more than 1 creep to chase down a burg intent on getting away... man you are one emo little boy.

    wahhhh...a guardian's sprint + their mitigation means I can chase them from grams to GV solo plinking away and they'd still make it unless I had the assistance of another creep....

    Sorry, I fail to sympathize with your emo tantrum about 1 weaver being able to get away from a single freep. Most classes that are intent on getting away (freep or creep) from a single toon of the opposite faction can do so in most cases.

    I'm not even going through the whole list. But your Spider Bias shows to an extreme.
    I'm sure I have some weaver centric bias...it's the primary class I've played since the game started. However, I do try to remain open as much as human nature allows. i try to be level and try to see things from the other side and expand my viewpoint.

    however, your bias is just trying to shout down those who don't agree with you. You are biased and your bias makes you closeminded...and even more dangerous, you can't see your own bias.
    Last edited by NYSEguy1970; Apr 28 2010 at 10:52 PM.
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  24. #149
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Nidor wounds Sebo with Epic Forum Conclusion for 9.423 Acid Damage.
    Sebo have succumed to his wounds.

    /Silkdawn
    [url=http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=301899]Silkdawn's movie collection[/url]

  25. #150
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyloo22546 View Post
    I'm not even going through the whole list. But your Spider Bias shows to an extreme.
    We show bias because we've played them for over 2 years and understand how they work to the max, know their ups and downs, and know what we can and can't do.

    Spiders are strong 1v1, yes. Small group? Quite powerful if ranked and played properly. Raid vs raid? More than 3 spiders hurts dps and healing. We're the CC class creepside but our CC is quite pathetic. That's why I lead raids on a spider. I can CC the target, do a small amount of dps, while target calling from range or melee if need be, and can slow the enemy to allow my raid to tactically retreat.

    I agree the power drain is a good skill, but it is affected by mitigation VERY heavily. Pots and skills can give you power. Don't forget it roots you in place for 1.5s, just like LK. Have power problems? Get an LM to give you power. LM's can also power drain if they're out. So few actually do because they're too busy dpsing instead of wound curing or sharing power or debuffing.

    It's funny how much complaining there was when spiders got the unbreakable root, but when they were nerfed into oblivion no-one really cared.

 

 
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