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  1. #76
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Dont forget that this game is not a 1vs1 fight club. If i have to fight a single freep i will, but a lot of time im gething roled by raid or groupe or burgs what ever.

    I dont want the weaver to be OP, i would like to have more flexibility in traits line thats could give more different build and weaver should have a Ranged slow like the LM.
    And for WTE i dont mind if they change it juste like the LM IMO the Tar is bether than WTE. It last longer and it can be more usefull for tactical use on certain batle field.

    WTE last 10 sec... dont forget that this is veary short duration. As a squishy target i dont think im doing well to run in freeps raid to put WTE .. its is juste an escape skill nothing more.
    A ranged slow could add a good form of CC for the weaver in raid fight.

    In raid fight most spider do is TK, LK, toxin, clining and entangling web, this are single target debuf and ranged attack, LM can AOE debuff the creeps and can AOE dmg them, instant AOE root, ranged stunt and juste dont need to face target!
    How a weaver can be OP compared to a good played LM?
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  2. #77
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by ti-pere3 View Post
    i would like to have more flexibility in traits line thats could give more different build
    So would all creeps.

    Anyway, good spiders will wreck any freep class 1v1 (close against warden, though), especially at such a high rank as you.
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  3. #78

    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    You can have a range slow if webbing is turning into LM tar
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  4. #79
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by Brongdha View Post
    So would all creeps.

    Anyway, good spiders will wreck any freep class 1v1 (close against warden, though), especially at such a high rank as you.
    cbr champs, assuming they are good, are competitive with high ranked weavers

  5. #80
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    LOL

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  6. #81

    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by ti-pere3 View Post
    yada yada yada
    Why are you playing a spider? Sounds like you should take the time to level a LM. That seems to have everything you could possibly want.

  7. #82
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyloo22546 View Post
    Why are you playing a spider? Sounds like you should take the time to level a LM. That seems to have everything you could possibly want.
    This is an old thing when it comes to CC. Spiders are supposed to be the CC class on the Creep side, but most spiders feels the CC is rather weak in comparison with especially other Freep classes. Today I would even argue Wargs are a better CC class than a Spider.

    Our two ranged CC (30 sec CD) is effectively messed up by our own DoT damage mechanic. Not to mention Born of Shadows (racial rank 6) will break our own roots if the rooted target is using any ranged attack (heck even little hobbit burglars could throw a pebble at us and it would break the root, lol.)

    Web the Earth is definatly a good skill, but it shouldnt be raised to some godlike status. It lasts for 10 seconds while sprints last 2 to 4.5 times longer. Not to mention some sprints totally negates the effect of the web. Its also neither the strongest slow or the longest lasting. What speaks for it is the area if anything, but the rest is mediocre in comparison to other slows. Its also not a ranged slow. I can agree the visual representation of the skill should show the actual area however.

    Smoothering Web (5 min CD). Our only conjunction, is an induction melee skill. Some argue it has to large range, but considering its an induction skill I think the 10m range is where it should be. Remember, the skill wont go off if the target gets outside that range or out of the front arc when the induction is up. This skill is rather tricky to get off in a dancing fight or on sprinting enemies or just enemies moving around at all. I think its fine for such a strong skill tho, but dont make it sound like something its not.

    Latent Poison (1 min CD). Our only stun is a melee applied skill, unlike Smoothering Web its instant tho. Can be resisted upon application and when its supposed to trigger the stun. Meanwhile it can be potted or using a skill to cleanse it. This skill doesnt stack either and overwrites other LPs on the target, effectively reseting the timer which means it can be resisted or cleansed again. The only reason spiders like this skill is because its actually the ONLY decent CC we have (a stun) that our DoTs wont break and can be applied decently often, unlike Smoothering Web.

    Hatchlings slow. Is now gone.


    Now that was it. Not so impressive really is it? Theres at least 3 Freep classes with more, better and/or stronger CC than a Spider. Take the new Warg CJ spam and I would say a spider is down at place 5 on the toplist when it comes to CC. Kinda low position for a class thats supposed to have the CC role dont you think?

    Once again, Im not arguing for anything more for the Spiders at the moment. I finally think spiders are on par with most other classes. Not better not worse, just in the middle where they belong and should be.

    /Silkdawn
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  8. #83

    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfectlotus View Post
    Once again, Im not arguing for anything more for the Spiders at the moment. I finally think spiders are on par with most other classes. Not better not worse, just in the middle where they belong and should be.
    I disagree. I feel like we're one of the strongest classes on either side of the game right now.
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  9. #84
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamers View Post
    I disagree. I feel like we're one of the strongest classes on either side of the game right now.
    You base this completly on 1vs1, which comes as no surprise because this is nothing new, weve always been a good 1vs1 class. Nothing have really changed there since Book 13 before MoM.

    What have changed is that you dont need to be a machocist the first 6 ranks to play a Spider. I forgive you for not thinking about other players than yourself, but this is a very important step in the Spider development. Also something weve been arguing about forever and now all of a sudden many older Spiders think its over the top. Totally forgetting that they themselfs learnt to play the class under the most harshest conditions and thoose that actually had the patience and enough bandaids to pull that off actually became one of the best out there while the rest abandoned the spider several ranks ago. I think it has more to do with about feeling special and unique than anything else and thoose older Spiders dont really like how many new Spiders now have a chance to actually play on par with what the older Spiders consider their precious own unique class. Feeling like they somehow should be alone with it because it was so much harder when they was ranking up. That mentality is low and dark to say the least.

    /Silkdawn
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  10. #85

    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfectlotus View Post
    You base this completly on 1vs1, which comes as no surprise because this is nothing new, weve always been a good 1vs1 class. Nothing have really changed there since Book 13 before MoM.

    What have changed is that you dont need to be a machocist the first 6 ranks to play a Spider. I forgive you for not thinking about other players than yourself, but this is a very important step in the Spider development. Also something weve been arguing about forever and now all of a sudden many older Spiders think its over the top. Totally forgetting that they themselfs learnt to play the class under the most harshest conditions and thoose that actually had the patience and enough bandaids to pull that off actually became one of the best out there while the rest abandoned the spider several ranks ago. I think it has more to do with about feeling special and unique than anything else and thoose older Spiders dont really like how many new Spiders now have a chance to actually play on par with what the older Spiders consider their precious own unique class. Feeling like they somehow should be alone with it because it was so much harder when they was ranking up. That mentality is low and dark to say the least.

    /Silkdawn
    You attribute a lot of sentiments to my statement that simply aren't there, Silkdawn. I'm glad the class has gotten buffed. We started at a very disadvantaged place, and I'm glad that new spiders don't have the same uphill struggle that we once had.

    However, right now the class is really, really powerful. Rank 6 isn't very difficult to get at 30,000+ infamy. Even at rank 5 we're very powerful. True, we don't have Hatchlings yet, but Web the Earth is one of the more powerful slows in the game.

    Furthermore, I'm not basing this solely on 1v1s, though that certainly factors into it. I can stand in the back of a raid and 'spam' Tainted Kiss and our ranged power drain on numerous freeps, debuff key targets, use my crowd control to prevent targets from getting away long enough for them to be offed, and if I feel like getting a little closer to the action, slow down entire raids with Web the Earth.

    We're a very, very powerful and able class. I've played a lot of classes on both sides, and I'm not sure I could select a more powerful one. Wargs and Reavers, while 1v1 kings, suffer somewhat in larger fights from having to close to melee. Blackarrows suffer in 1v1s. WLs and Defilers are very strong classes, but are far more group oriented and typically only win 1v1 fights through attrition.

    We're a VERY unique class in that we're a mix of melee and ranged, and can function well in all scenarios.

    In the end, I don't think the Weaver class needs anything. Which is why I'm posting in this thread. Tip wants something else added to the class, which I just see as unnecessary, and frankly, too powerful.
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  11. #86
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamers View Post
    You attribute a lot of sentiments to my statement that simply aren't there, Silkdawn. I'm glad the class has gotten buffed. We started at a very disadvantaged place, and I'm glad that new spiders don't have the same uphill struggle that we once had.

    However, right now the class is really, really powerful. Rank 6 isn't very difficult to get at 30,000+ infamy. Even at rank 5 we're very powerful. True, we don't have Hatchlings yet, but Web the Earth is one of the more powerful slows in the game.

    Furthermore, I'm not basing this solely on 1v1s, though that certainly factors into it. I can stand in the back of a raid and 'spam' Tainted Kiss and our ranged power drain on numerous freeps, debuff key targets, use my crowd control to prevent targets from getting away long enough for them to be offed, and if I feel like getting a little closer to the action, slow down entire raids with Web the Earth.

    We're a very, very powerful and able class. I've played a lot of classes on both sides, and I'm not sure I could select a more powerful one. Wargs and Reavers, while 1v1 kings, suffer somewhat in larger fights from having to close to melee. Blackarrows suffer in 1v1s. WLs and Defilers are very strong classes, but are far more group oriented and typically only win 1v1 fights through attrition.

    We're a VERY unique class in that we're a mix of melee and ranged, and can function well in all scenarios.

    In the end, I don't think the Weaver class needs anything. Which is why I'm posting in this thread. Tip wants something else added to the class, which I just see as unnecessary, and frankly, too powerful.
    Well in short we are agreeing with each other then. The big change imo is that the TK has got a boost (which is probably the biggest reason young spiders have it easier these days.) The rest have been available to us before.

    /Silkdawn
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  12. #87

    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfectlotus View Post
    Once again, Im not arguing for anything more for the Spiders at the moment. I finally think spiders are on par with most other classes. Not better not worse, just in the middle where they belong and should be.

    /Silkdawn
    You agree that spiders are fine where they are at but you'd rather make them even more powerful by giving them more CC that they don't need?(and shouldn't have in my opinion)

    Until you spiders stop shouting "GIVE ME EZMODE" there is no point even having a debate.

    At least the OP was willing to give up something for a slow -- which has the possibility of being reasonable.
    Last edited by timmyloo22546; Apr 18 2010 at 07:38 PM.

  13. #88
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyloo22546 View Post
    You agree that spiders are fine where they are at but you'd rather make them even more powerful by giving them more CC that they don't need?(and shouldn't have in my opinion)

    Until you spiders stop shouting "GIVE ME EZMODE" there is no point even having a debate.

    At least the OP was willing to give up something for a slow -- which has the possibility of being reasonable.
    Are you for real? Did you even read my post, well if you did you certainly didnt understood it, but that comes as no surprise to me.

    /Silkdawn
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  14. #89
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    WTE and Tar should both be removed from the ettenmoors - Or reduced to 10-15% reduced run speed
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  15. #90
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    What blows my mind is that a R10 spider is suggesting this, the rank at which you get a skill that resets your CC similar to call of the valar. hah. On a defeat response no less.

    "Hm, should I heal for 2.2k or reset CC?" *ponder*
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  16. #91
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Yes weavers need a ranged slow.

    Replace the pathetic r11 weaver trait (-5s CD on Latent) to make lethal kiss give a 15% 10s slow.

  17. #92
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    What blows my mind is that a R10 spider is suggesting this, the rank at which you get a skill that resets your CC similar to call of the valar. hah. On a defeat response no less.

    "Hm, should I heal for 2.2k or reset CC?" *ponder*
    The skill requires a class trait to be slotted. I don't use it, as I don't really find it useful, so I don't slot the trait and I don't have access to use the skill. W/DR resetting my CD is very limited in use, especially because the CC that gets reset is the short webs (30s cd) and mez IIRC. If it reset Smothering, I'd consider slotting it, but afaik it doesn't reset SW.

    I'm not sure if any rank 10 weaver uses the skill, because it burns a trait slot.
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  18. #93
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    This R10 skill you are talking about is real joke. It give power and reset the cooldown of latent poison wich is 45 sec i think. and work afther 15 sec. 10 stunt immunity and if you use it again ( concidering you didnt use a mez) it will be 5 seconde stunt instead of 10 at the end of a nother long 15 sec. And will be 3 seconde stunt and can be 1 seconde stunt with the diminishing return if a mez as been used, i dont know if root count too but i think so.

    For a R10 traits, this is realy sheap and kind of useless, i dont use it, i have tryed it and its really bad. I know other R10 spider that agree with me.

    Now i juste got the R11 and again, not much of a godlike skill out there, i didnt have tryed it i ranked late yesterday night, i will try it do day afther work. But its a 5 seconde reduction on latent poison timer and i got a trait that give +300 moral and power regen in combat, this one looks not bad.

    So you got R10 and R11 that are a pain to acomplish without having a good skill, what about a trait that add a slow to Létal kiss? IMO this would make sence for a hight ranked spider to have skill like that as a CC classe...

    EDIT: afther looking at it, R10 and R11 are most a buff for latent poison that work in melee. I should try to buff this skill to try it and see what appen if i work more in melee. But i think i will get kill realy quick, having a R11 squishy spider runing around champs lol Anny way il give it a try. Maybe debufing dps for moral.
    Last edited by ti-pere3; Apr 19 2010 at 07:37 AM.
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  19. #94
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    I'm still not sure why you need a ranged slow. I also play a weaver thats almost rank 6. At rank 5 you get the 10% speed racial (in and out of combat) and can boost that up even more with DoF pots and DP run buff to around +30%? runspeed (out of combat). You start out with Snaring Web, you also get Web the Earth at rank 5, and at rank 7 Catch Prey(!)... Plus Tainted Kiss can be used on the run and has a cooldown of only 6s. I'm pretty sure the devs are aware of that fact. I've killed a few wounded freeps trying to get away using just this attack.

    What seems more important to me, however, and a major consideration of your argument for a ranged slow are the circumstances of who, what, and when you're fighting. I mean you're not going to burn down a heavy armor class or a freep at full health this way just by running and gunning. Unless your oppenent has already taken damage from fighting and is about to die and tries to flee from you, you don't really have to catch them just keep firing on them with TK and finish the job (at +10% runspeed, you'll eventually close the distance). If its a class with a runspeed skill (most heavy armor classes do) there's a good chance he'll get away anyway ignoring any slows put on him. Depending on how many DoTs they already have on them Snaring Web won't really help at all. Snaring Web is really an opening move. Basically, if they choose to disengage from the fight and they're too far to get hit there isn't really much you can do at all. What you'll need then... is something that'll make you run faster than +10% in-combat, but it makes no sense since you're already traited for faster movement. TK doesn't need a slow component because its meant to be used in conjunction with your racial movement trait. A ranked up spider has no less than 4 skills in addition to the racial movement trait he/she can use to hinder her prey... my BA only has 1.
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  20. #95
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    The thing is I'm arguing from a raid vs raid point of view, not 1v1. In RvR if we want to slow something we have to run up to it and drop webs. For a squishy spider, that usually means death. Having a ranged slow would be a nice addition, even at a high rank.

  21. #96

    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by ti-pere3 View Post
    But i think i will get kill realy quick, having a R11 squishy spider runing around champs lol Anny way il give it a try. Maybe debufing dps for moral.
    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherGab View Post
    The thing is I'm arguing from a raid vs raid point of view, not 1v1. In RvR if we want to slow something we have to run up to it and drop webs. For a squishy spider, that usually means death. Having a ranged slow would be a nice addition, even at a high rank.
    Squishy? You guys have got to be kidding. I've seen this argument thrown around quite a bit, and I'm not sure what predicates it. Because we look squishy?

    Let me throw around some numbers for everyone to think upon.

    My Weaver has 4,705 Armour rating with the Armour Boost trait.

    Block...5%
    Evade...8%
    Parry...6.7% (With the rank 5 Racial trait)
    Total...19.7%

    4.7% Critical Protection across the board with the Critical Protection Boost 2 trait.

    And oh yeah, I have just over 6,000 morale with a DPS build. If I go for full morale, like many do?
    7,311 Morale.

    My 65 Champion with full Radiance gear? A heavy armour class?

    I have 4,301 Armour. That's right, Weavers have MORE ARMOUR THAN A HEAVY FREEP.

    Oh, and I have zero BPE in my Damage stance, Fervour. If I drop out of Fervour or use CDs to gain PE (I can't gain Block unless I use a shield, which severely hampers my DPS)...
    Parry...9.5%
    Evade...8.5%
    Total...18%

    And my Critical Defenses? 0 across the board.

    So let's break it down. Weavers have BETTER Armour, BETTER avoidances, BETTER crit defenses, and MORE morale than a Heavy Armored freep who HAS to be in melee range.

    Give me a break guys. We have it so amazingly great right now. I'm shocked that any ranked spider is complaining.
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  22. #97
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Sorry but I wish my spider could hit for 3k like my champ. 2k is more often, my champ crits plenty. Or have mass AoE's.

    Don't compare classes, there are NO mirror classes in LOTRO. If you want them, go to Warhammer.

  23. #98

    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherGab View Post
    Sorry but I wish my spider could hit for 3k like my champ. 2k is more often, my champ crits plenty. Or have mass AoE's.

    Don't compare classes, there are NO mirror classes in LOTRO. If you want them, go to Warhammer.
    That's a different argument. You claimed Weavers are squishy. The numbers simply don't support that claim.
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  24. #99
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherGab View Post
    Sorry but I wish my spider could hit for 3k like my champ. 2k is more often, my champ crits plenty. Or have mass AoE's.

    Don't compare classes, there are NO mirror classes in LOTRO. If you want them, go to Warhammer.
    Just so you know...Bashel is one of the most experienced bugs on Landy...AND one of the better Champs I know.

    In fact I'd be willing to bet there isn't someone who knows the dynamics of both of those classes any better than he does.

    And your talk of dev hits from your champ shows how little you know about Champs in the moors currently. Any creep not traiting against crits is a fool, and our crit, let alone our dev, chances are very VERY low vs an even slightly ranked creep.

    Look, I'm not one of those claiming that creeps are way overpowered and boo hoo for freeps. Frankly I feel the balance between creeps and freeps is closer than ever.

    But the claims that a bug needs ANY more skills, in particular a ranged snare when their movement is already faster than freep movement, is just silly. A well played bug can kite just fine as it is. And one that can't needs to go practice more. If you're talking exclusively from a raid level design then I'd suggest bugs have far more important things to do than snare from range in 99% of raid level engagements.
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  25. #100
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    Re: Weaver need a range slow

    Quote Originally Posted by Thane9 View Post
    Just so you know...Bashel is one of the most experienced bugs on Landy...AND one of the better Champs I know.

    In fact I'd be willing to bet there isn't someone who knows the dynamics of both of those classes any better than he does.
    I'd bet he knows the champ a lot better that I do, I run raids on my champ, and look for 1v1's pretty much it. But I know the weaver class inside out. I doubt Bashel knows more about it that me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thane9 View Post
    And your talk of dev hits from your champ shows how little you know about Champs in the moors currently. Any creep not traiting against crits is a fool, and our crit, let alone our dev, chances are very VERY low vs an even slightly ranked creep.
    Creeps on my server don't bother. I counted at least 40 RS strike crits today in 3 hours of PvP. That was plenty for the small group action we had running.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thane9 View Post
    Look, I'm not one of those claiming that creeps are way overpowered and boo hoo for freeps. Frankly I feel the balance between creeps and freeps is closer than ever.
    Agreed


    Quote Originally Posted by Thane9 View Post
    But the claims that a bug needs ANY more skills, in particular a ranged snare when their movement is already faster than freep movement, is just silly. A well played bug can kite just fine as it is. And one that can't needs to go practice more. If you're talking exclusively from a raid level design then I'd suggest bugs have far more important things to do than snare from range in 99% of raid level engagements.
    Next book creeps are going to need everything they can get

 

 
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