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  1. #76

    Unhappy Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Something needs to change...way too many ranked creep zerg babies afraid and unable to fight a solo freep....just sad. (this speaks to how much "safer" it is on creepside these days)
    GRUSM - REAVER, DUSKPAW - WARG, STIXM - WEAVER, GRUZGASH - BA

  2. #77

    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    id like to see how things would work out if for like a week raids were disabled in the moors and it was only fellowships. Sure people would be able to roll together still, but i think it would make things much more difficult if you wanna use that many people making it harder to see vitals and what not

  3. #78
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    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Creeps as a whole do not need a nerf, wargs need a nerf. Reduce their speed in stealth by 20-30% (or remove Enhanced Skill: Stealth), fix cripple/pounce, and see what it does. These two small changes will reduce wargs effectiveness and so reduce the warg population, while leaving the class intact.

  4. #79
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    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?
    Short answer: No.
    [SIZE="2"][COLOR="Yellow"]I guarantee your level 65 r0 greenie BA will contribute more to your Creep raid than my level 2 Minstrel will contribute to my Freep raid. After all, both took about 5 seconds to create.[/COLOR][/size]
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b000000085aec/signature.png]Chea[/charsig]

  5. #80

    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisCML View Post
    Something needs to change...way too many ranked creep zerg babies afraid and unable to fight a solo freep....just sad. )
    There are just as many freep versions of what you just described as there are creep versions.

  6. #81
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    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrusher View Post
    There are just as many freep versions of what you just described as there are creep versions.
    One could say that is because after being zerged countless times these people group up and fight zerg on zerg

  7. #82

    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Quote Originally Posted by iceknight493 View Post
    One could say that is because after being zerged countless times these people group up and fight zerg on zerg
    I'm sure this statement isn't biased at all.

  8. #83
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    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrusher View Post
    I'm sure this statement isn't biased at all.
    You can't play lotro and post on these forums and not be biased in some way.
    Spam deleted by Administrators

  9. #84
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    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrusher View Post
    I'm sure this statement isn't biased at all.

    Sure its biased doesnt mean it isnt true

  10. #85
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    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Generally speaking, the moors are about as balanced as they have ever been.
    Wargs need to be looked at, and the CJ mechanic needs to be looked at.
    Blanket nerfs to 1 side or the other are not necessary.

    IMO both CJ skills creep side need to be raised from r3 to r6-7, so that more time needs to be invested to recieve them and the sheer weight of wargs/spiders with access to CJ is reduced.
    Snap should break CJs creepside, and LMs should recieve a similar skill freepside to snap (but not provide protection from, as stun immunity used to) CJs on freepside.

  11. #86
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    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Quote Originally Posted by DorianFalkenmond View Post
    Creeps as a whole do not need a nerf, wargs need a nerf. Reduce their speed in stealth by 20-30% (or remove Enhanced Skill: Stealth), fix cripple/pounce, and see what it does. These two small changes will reduce wargs effectiveness and so reduce the warg population, while leaving the class intact.
    only thing that needs to be fixed with wargs are dot damage and cb/pounce. (Hell even get rid of frenzy and put a timer on claws). Screwing around with stealth speed, which we've had since SoA, is idiotic.

  12. #87
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    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Quote Originally Posted by lotrsam View Post
    Screwing around with stealth speed, which we've had since SoA, is idiotic.
    - Hunters had DF in combat since SoA.
    - There was no diminishing returns since SoA.
    - All mezzes and roots worked for the full duration since SoA.
    - Minis could instantly drop from warspeech and heal right away since SoA.
    - SoP:R could prevent all stuns including conjunctions since SoA.
    - Loremaster wound cure and air lore and cappies bubble (as well as I'm sure a bunch of other freepside skills) worked out of group since SoA.

    Need I go on? So basically you're saying creepside core skills are untouchable regardless of the seemingly endless number of nerfs thrown the freeps' way? Gotcha.

  13. #88
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    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    creeps do NOT need a nerf, aside from a slight tweak to the warg CJ, if turbine adds freep rewards worth getting out here everything will be much better.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/13213000000005ce4/signature.png]Gloinfastisback[/charsig]
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  14. #89
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    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niblik View Post
    No OP, I would not support any more nerfs. I've already endured plenty over the last three years and this is the closest both sides have been to balance since LoTRO was released.
    Creeps have been nothing but buffed over the three years. Any nerfs they were 'inflicted' on the poor creeps have been basically insignificant and are overshadowed by the current severe overpowering.

    Quote Originally Posted by FajaSailors View Post
    - Hunters had DF in combat since SoA.
    - There was no diminishing returns since SoA.
    - All mezzes and roots worked for the full duration since SoA.
    - Minis could instantly drop from warspeech and heal right away since SoA.
    - SoP:R could prevent all stuns including conjunctions since SoA.
    - Loremaster wound cure and air lore and cappies bubble (as well as I'm sure a bunch of other freepside skills) worked out of group since SoA.

    Need I go on? So basically you're saying creepside core skills are untouchable regardless of the seemingly endless number of nerfs thrown the freeps' way? Gotcha.
    Agreed. The number of continued severe nerfs the freeps have 'endured' far outstrip anything the creeps can claim. Any creep defending their current level of power comparitively are simply ezmoders that don't want their precious 'IWINIRUBER' status messed with even if that means it would be more even, fun fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by gloinfast View Post
    creeps do NOT need a nerf, aside from a slight tweak to the warg CJ, if turbine adds freep rewards worth getting out here everything will be much better.
    Freep 'rewards' came about in book 12, and it was one of the worst things that has ever happened to the moors aside from the current broken balance scheme. Creeps need far more than a 'slight' tweak to warg CJ.
    [color=yellow] [b] "Dear Devs, Please nerf Rock. Paper is okay. Sincerely, Scissors." [/b] [/color]

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  15. #90
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    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    No. Frankly, I'm tired of being threatened with nerfs to make up for lack of player skill on the freep side.

    Give freeps a reason to PvP. That's all.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020100000d43a5/signature.png]Muzfuz[/charsig]
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  16. #91

    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Quote Originally Posted by gloinfast View Post
    creeps do NOT need a nerf, aside from a slight tweak to the warg CJ, if turbine adds freep rewards worth getting out here everything will be much better.
    wargs need a nerf beyond the CJ. it's not about "needing mad skillz", i see mediocre players going FOTM and pwning faces on their warg. I see players that were top of the class wargs now NOT playing their warg because it's way too easy - and not just because they can CJ something.

    other creep classes, meh, morale is a bit too high but other than that things are pretty much fine.

    except defilers using dying rage to run away and not give renown to freeps....
    [B][COLOR=cyan][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/06205000000039d09/signature.png]Viloxus[/charsig]
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  17. #92
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    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Quote Originally Posted by AroJay View Post
    No. Frankly, I'm tired of being threatened with nerfs to make up for lack of player skill on the freep side.
    Many are tired of creeps getting overbuffed to make up for the lack of skill on the creep side, too. 2-way streets 4tw!
    [SIZE="2"][COLOR="Yellow"]I guarantee your level 65 r0 greenie BA will contribute more to your Creep raid than my level 2 Minstrel will contribute to my Freep raid. After all, both took about 5 seconds to create.[/COLOR][/size]
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b000000085aec/signature.png]Chea[/charsig]

  18. #93

    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton View Post
    Many are tired of creeps getting overbuffed to make up for the lack of skill on the creep side, too. 2-way streets 4tw!
    I must say that the standard of your trolling is diminishing. More effort required.

    If people actually stepped back and looked at things realistically for a minute, they might not jump to all the ridiculous and over-exaggerated statements they keep coming out with.

    Simple fact. The creep classes, in their original form (skills, traits, corruptions) were designed and balanced vs. LEVEL 50 freep classes. This is very VERY important to realise. Since then, freep classes have undergone massive development in terms of new skills, traits, LI's, Legendary traits, gear upgrades. Creeps, have not.

    This is to be expected since this game is first and foremost, PvE-centric. The fact of the matter is, there has been a lot of development time invested in freeps, but almost none for creeps. This clearly correlates with the amount of new content added to PvE, as opposed to PvP.

    As a result of this, freeps have gained a large amount in terms of group capacity, with many of the new skills/legacies they now have focusing on improving the capabilities of a freep group (the intention of which is to allow them to take on new "inventive and challenging" group PvE content). Creeps however, still have the same skill/trait set as they did back in SoA meaning their group capacity is pretty much exactly as it was before.

    Given this obvious problem, there are two possible solutions. One would have been to give creep side a massive overhaul, not quite on the scale as freeps have seen, but still very large. They would need to see new skills, new traits, possibly new mechanics in terms of an analogue to LI's. Big stuff indeed. This would also be completely untenable given the clear fact that PvP, and thus creepside as a whole, is considered to be a minor and not particularly key aspect of the game. There's simply no way that this sort of development could be justified.

    So what else? Well the second solution is far more simple. Buff creeps. Big, wholesale, easy to implement buffs such as simply adding in some random multiplier to the code with regards to creep morale/damage etc. There, done.

    The net result, creeps, overall, on a small scale, are superior to freeps. However, on larger scales, when the full group capacity of a freep force can be utilised (read as focus burst healing, focus burst dps and a large variety of group saving emergency skills), freeps have the upper hand. In between those extremes, lies a happy medium where freeps and creeps are more-or-less balanced (group size ~5-9).

    Many of the problems that freeps perceive nowadays are simply lack of co-ordination. Believe me, when a highly skilled and co-ordinated raid of freeps engages a similar sized enemy, they are almost unbeatable. Ok, so you're at a disadvantage when it comes to 1v1's and small group battles. Sorry, for the reasons I outlined above, it HAS to be that way, BECAUSE you have the advantage with groups.

    Let me put it another way. If overall (of course there will be class miss-matches but in general terms), freeps and creeps were balanced in terms of 1v1's, what would happen when each side groups up? Freeps gain massively. Creeps gain a lot too, I don't deny that, but what they gain is based on what freeps WOULD HAVE GAINED AT LEVEL 50. So, freeps will have a massive advantage. So the choice would go back to what I suggested earlier: develop creep side post level 50 on a scale proportional to freep development since then (not going to happen), or buff creeps.

    End of story. Good night.
    Wulfhram (Hunter), Boborrin (Champ), Garrth (Captain) assorted others

  19. #94
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    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Absolutely wrong. But nobody is going to change your mind, are they?!?!
    [SIZE="2"][COLOR="Yellow"]I guarantee your level 65 r0 greenie BA will contribute more to your Creep raid than my level 2 Minstrel will contribute to my Freep raid. After all, both took about 5 seconds to create.[/COLOR][/size]
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b000000085aec/signature.png]Chea[/charsig]

  20. #95

    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton View Post
    Absolutely wrong. But nobody is going to change your mind, are they?!?!
    Now, ^THIS^, is what is known as irony. Make a note in case you plan to refer to it in the future...
    Wulfhram (Hunter), Boborrin (Champ), Garrth (Captain) assorted others

  21. #96

    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    I must say that the standard of your trolling is diminishing. More effort required.

    If people actually stepped back and looked at things realistically for a minute, they might not jump to all the ridiculous and over-exaggerated statements they keep coming out with.

    Simple fact. The creep classes, in their original form (skills, traits, corruptions) were designed and balanced vs. LEVEL 50 freep classes. This is very VERY important to realise. Since then, freep classes have undergone massive development in terms of new skills, traits, LI's, Legendary traits, gear upgrades. Creeps, have not.

    This is to be expected since this game is first and foremost, PvE-centric. The fact of the matter is, there has been a lot of development time invested in freeps, but almost none for creeps. This clearly correlates with the amount of new content added to PvE, as opposed to PvP.

    As a result of this, freeps have gained a large amount in terms of group capacity, with many of the new skills/legacies they now have focusing on improving the capabilities of a freep group (the intention of which is to allow them to take on new "inventive and challenging" group PvE content). Creeps however, still have the same skill/trait set as they did back in SoA meaning their group capacity is pretty much exactly as it was before.

    Given this obvious problem, there are two possible solutions. One would have been to give creep side a massive overhaul, not quite on the scale as freeps have seen, but still very large. They would need to see new skills, new traits, possibly new mechanics in terms of an analogue to LI's. Big stuff indeed. This would also be completely untenable given the clear fact that PvP, and thus creepside as a whole, is considered to be a minor and not particularly key aspect of the game. There's simply no way that this sort of development could be justified.

    So what else? Well the second solution is far more simple. Buff creeps. Big, wholesale, easy to implement buffs such as simply adding in some random multiplier to the code with regards to creep morale/damage etc. There, done.

    The net result, creeps, overall, on a small scale, are superior to freeps. However, on larger scales, when the full group capacity of a freep force can be utilised (read as focus burst healing, focus burst dps and a large variety of group saving emergency skills), freeps have the upper hand. In between those extremes, lies a happy medium where freeps and creeps are more-or-less balanced (group size ~5-9).

    Many of the problems that freeps perceive nowadays are simply lack of co-ordination. Believe me, when a highly skilled and co-ordinated raid of freeps engages a similar sized enemy, they are almost unbeatable. Ok, so you're at a disadvantage when it comes to 1v1's and small group battles. Sorry, for the reasons I outlined above, it HAS to be that way, BECAUSE you have the advantage with groups.

    Let me put it another way. If overall (of course there will be class miss-matches but in general terms), freeps and creeps were balanced in terms of 1v1's, what would happen when each side groups up? Freeps gain massively. Creeps gain a lot too, I don't deny that, but what they gain is based on what freeps WOULD HAVE GAINED AT LEVEL 50. So, freeps will have a massive advantage. So the choice would go back to what I suggested earlier: develop creep side post level 50 on a scale proportional to freep development since then (not going to happen), or buff creeps.

    End of story. Good night.

    Your a fool plain and simple. Let me tell you one thing. My reaver went from rank 0-5 in 6 hours small grouped with buddies. Once he was rank 5 I was able to solo 70% of the freeps in the moors. My reaver did massive ammounts of damage and had 8k morale, along with better than guardian mitigations.

    Play a freep for 6 hours. Youll be ready for the lonelands and level 20. Getting a freep to 65 and gearing him out, traiting him out, getting legendary items and skills, leveling those, and finally getting him to the moors takes at least 35x the amount of time it took me to get from rank 0-5. Now there are not many freeps who can go 0-65 with full everything and gear in a week but im giving you the benefit of thhe doubt. (one week played that is).

    Finally realize with the new expansion freeps didn't really get more powerful. Some saw their health go down in actuality. Creeps on the other hand gained huge morale advantages and now sit at the height of the totem pole. When you have long term full time creeps playing freep side because they say creep is too easy now you know something is wrong.

    If you honestly can't see
    Ranked Wargs
    Ranked Reavers
    Ranked Defilers (*** kind of mitigations is that for a healer 10k morale?????10,000 MORALE????)
    Ranked WL (I can't even begin to explain the mitigations these guys have, after rank 9 its even better with uruk heal).

    As being over the top, then your reasoning is completely wacked and one sided and so our coonversation is finished.

    And for you to say since level 50 and the release of the game freeps have undergone massive improvements where as creeps are not you are truly a tool. At release a level 50 freep could solo 3 creeps easily. What you need to realize is turbines first mindset was it takes many creeps to kill a hero class just like the books. This then shifted and so creeps got massive improvements. Also you need to realize that as a creep ranks he gets stronger and stronger where freeps are static as they rank. Therefore by simple math alone creeps not only get massive buffs every expansion but also the natural increase in rank gives them an edge as time elapses in comparison to their freep counterparts....
    Last edited by Anonymous32; May 04 2010 at 02:01 AM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d000000049228/signature.png]Beneros[/charsig]

  22. #97
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    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Turbine made creeps equal(In most cases, some classes are just better against others) to geared out, traited, good legacied freeps. The problem with that is there are a lot of casual players on freep side who go to the moors and haven't obtained their gear, grinded out their traits, or have good weapons with good legacies. That is were the imbalance begins. They go to the moors and get killed by ranked creeps without a chance to fight back. So a lot of these players will go to creep side were they get to PvMP to improve their character and can have a PvP ready character in a short amount of time and do not have to spend the long hours grinding traits/legacies. This is why most servers have a higher creep population because it is the more convient side to pvp on for casual players.
    Edelbrock

  23. #98
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    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orlandu View Post
    Turbine made creeps equal(In most cases, some classes are just better against others) to geared out, traited, good legacied freeps. The problem with that is there are a lot of casual players on freep side who go to the moors and haven't obtained their gear, grinded out their traits, or have good weapons with good legacies. That is were the imbalance begins. They go to the moors and get killed by ranked creeps without a chance to fight back. So a lot of these players will go to creep side were they get to PvMP to improve their character and can have a PvP ready character in a short amount of time and do not have to spend the long hours grinding traits/legacies. This is why most servers have a higher creep population because it is the more convient side to pvp on for casual players.
    This is why I advocate for a higher level requirement of a freep toon before you could roll a creep.


  24. #99
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    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    Now, ^THIS^, is what is known as irony. Make a note in case you plan to refer to it in the future...
    No, it's known as a forum win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orlandu View Post
    Turbine made creeps equal(In most cases, some classes are just better against others) to geared out, traited, good legacied freeps. The problem with that is there are a lot of casual players on freep side who go to the moors and haven't obtained their gear, grinded out their traits, or have good weapons with good legacies. That is were the imbalance begins. They go to the moors and get killed by ranked creeps without a chance to fight back. So a lot of these players will go to creep side were they get to PvMP to improve their character and can have a PvP ready character in a short amount of time and do not have to spend the long hours grinding traits/legacies. This is why most servers have a higher creep population because it is the more convient side to pvp on for casual players.
    Another win!

    Quote Originally Posted by Familiarity View Post
    This is why I advocate for a higher level requirement of a freep toon before you could roll a creep.
    Such a change would not fix the current issues in PvMP -- the ability of Creeps to change classes on the fly, vs the Freeps inability. This would just make it even more difficult than it already is for Freeps to get the class they need.
    [SIZE="2"][COLOR="Yellow"]I guarantee your level 65 r0 greenie BA will contribute more to your Creep raid than my level 2 Minstrel will contribute to my Freep raid. After all, both took about 5 seconds to create.[/COLOR][/size]
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b000000085aec/signature.png]Chea[/charsig]

  25. #100

    Re: Creeps: Would you endure a nerf?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous32 View Post
    Your a fool plain and simple. Let me tell you one thing. My reaver went from rank 0-5 in 6 hours small grouped with buddies. Once he was rank 5 I was able to solo 70% of the freeps in the moors. My reaver did massive ammounts of damage and had 8k morale, along with better than guardian mitigations.

    Play a freep for 6 hours. Youll be ready for the lonelands and level 20. Getting a freep to 65 and gearing him out, traiting him out, getting legendary items and skills, leveling those, and finally getting him to the moors takes at least 35x the amount of time it took me to get from rank 0-5. Now there are not many freeps who can go 0-65 with full everything and gear in a week but im giving you the benefit of thhe doubt. (one week played that is).

    Finally realize with the new expansion freeps didn't really get more powerful. Some saw their health go down in actuality. Creeps on the other hand gained huge morale advantages and now sit at the height of the totem pole. When you have long term full time creeps playing freep side because they say creep is too easy now you know something is wrong.

    If you honestly can't see
    Ranked Wargs
    Ranked Reavers
    Ranked Defilers (*** kind of mitigations is that for a healer 10k morale?????10,000 MORALE????)
    Ranked WL (I can't even begin to explain the mitigations these guys have, after rank 9 its even better with uruk heal).

    As being over the top, then your reasoning is completely wacked and one sided and so our coonversation is finished.

    And for you to say since level 50 and the release of the game freeps have undergone massive improvements where as creeps are not you are truly a tool. At release a level 50 freep could solo 3 creeps easily. What you need to realize is turbines first mindset was it takes many creeps to kill a hero class just like the books. This then shifted and so creeps got massive improvements. Also you need to realize that as a creep ranks he gets stronger and stronger where freeps are static as they rank. Therefore by simple math alone creeps not only get massive buffs every expansion but also the natural increase in rank gives them an edge as time elapses in comparison to their freep counterparts....
    Awesome personal attacks. Makes you win the discussion automatically.

    FYI, if you actually stepped back a minute like I suggested then you might not have gotten so angry and butthurt about my post since I didn't at any point say what you think I said.

    Answer me this. How has the creep skill/trait sets changed since SoA? Apart from VERY few minor changes, the skill/trait sets are pretty much exactly as they were back then. Back in SoA, were there LI's? Was there dedicated trait sets for freeps? How many new skills did freeps gain since level 50? How many new legendary traits? Now what did creeps gain?

    You see, what I am saying is that the way the creep classes were originally designed (and for the most part still are) was balanced against freep classes with skill/trait/LI sets which have moved on since. Creeps have simply NOT, and WILL NOT EVER receive the same scale of development in order to retain that original balance. As a result, Turbine have deemed it fair to apply wholesale and basic buffs to creeps in terms of morale and damage multipliers. This is a very easy fix in terms of programming and development costs. Many, and it seems you are part of them, will not agree that this is fair, however, in this game Turbine is king and on this matter it seems that your opinion is largely irrelevant.

    Do I personally think it's fair? Not really, I would prefer to see creep class development (new skills etc.) and wholesale buffs kept out of it altogether, but I'm also realistic and realise that this will never happen (or at least it is HIGHLY unlikely).

    Now go back and read my post. I did not ever, not once, state that on a solo, 1v1 basis, the creep classes are not overpowered. In fact the contrary. I specifically state that they are. So what is your problem? Why have you got so upset? Yes that's the way it is, but it is also the case that for larger group sizes, freeps are overpowered (as long as they co-ordinate well). So in between those extremes, there must be SOME kind of balance. Is it perfect? Not by a long shot, but it's what we have and you just have to deal with it. Constantly whining is not going to change anything.

    Oh, and as far as time investment is concerned, well, I did not ever mention that issue at all and yet you seem to insult and berate my non-existant comments regarding it. Perhaps I'll respond to you later on this matter, but right now I'm going to go and eat...
    Wulfhram (Hunter), Boborrin (Champ), Garrth (Captain) assorted others

 

 
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