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  1. #1

    Suggestions /beg

    The new comment for your friends list is great. Fine. I like it. Can it NOT ASK FOR A NEW COMMENT every time I invite my buddy to a group?

    Second, can we fix the "window focus" problem? Imagine this, a player that keybound his skills to letters, a raid, a private chat with a friend, and a freaking ready check. Ready check removes focus from the chat window, player is still typing, and 10 skills go off all at once. I have used 30 min, hour long, etc cooldowns because I typed the wrong letter right after such an event. If that can be addressed, such that pressing any key when a ready check, trade, spar, or similar pop up window happens the keyboard is totally blocked and nothing happens, that would be great.
    Draegon:
    "stack all the morale you want but dont come on here wonderin why you aint hittin hard! :D"

  2. #2

    Re: Suggestions /beg

    Quote Originally Posted by forusrname View Post
    Second, can we fix the "window focus" problem?
    It is annoying as all get out. This situation is a fundamental part of the design of all Turbine games. I wish they had not done it this way.

    Microsoft design tools makes it easy to do pop ups like this. Turbine was taught by Microsoft back Microsoft was publishing their games and making the rules on how the game software works. It has become corporate culture. This is way we do it at Turbine.

    I do not how we will ever get them to change their culture. Or convince them that it is worth the money to rewrite it all. The only thing worse that having all the pop ups take focus. Have the existing pop ups all take focus. The newer ones do not take focus.

    From writing software, I understand the rationale behind having these kind of pop ups. Something has happened. Full stop. I am going to make the users. Drop what they are doing. Force them to provide a response before they can go back to whatever they were doing.

    Dang. Turbine over uses it.
    Last edited by Yula_the_Mighty; Apr 05 2010 at 01:07 PM.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  3. #3

    Re: Suggestions /beg

    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    It is annoying as all get out. This situation is a fundamental part of the design of all Turbine games. I wish they had not done it this way.

    Microsoft design tools makes it easy to do pop ups like this. Turbine was taught by Microsoft back Microsoft was publishing their games and making the rules on how the game software works. It has become corporate culture. This is way we do it at Turbine.

    I do not how we will ever get them to change their culture. Or convince them that it is worth the money to rewrite it all. The only thing worse that having all the pop ups take focus. Have the existing pop ups all take focus. The newer ones do not take focus.

    From writing software, I understand the rationale behind having these kind of pop ups. Something has happened. Full stop. I am going to make the users. Drop what they are doing. Force them to provide a response before they can go back to whatever they were doing.

    Dang. Turbine over uses it.

    Its not a money problem on the developers side anyway --- I am a programmer, and its a very simple fix, you just set the attribute that governs how a window handles focus when it is created or if that is not possible, create the window unseen, force focus to remain with the old window, then unhide the new window is a workaround its like 5 lines of code tops, if its just the attribute its not even code, just a check box in the IDE. Or, if they want this dumb idiom, stick with it and polish it. Another option would be to have the popup take control of the keyboard (currently, the keyboard input is shuffled back to the main game interface -- and THAT is the root of the problem) and away a Y/N response (make it be caps instead of y/n to prevent chat from accidental entry) or a mouse click (either or would work) while any other key pressed would discarded safely. Also trivial to do.
    Draegon:
    "stack all the morale you want but dont come on here wonderin why you aint hittin hard! :D"

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    677

    Re: Suggestions /beg

    Quote Originally Posted by forusrname View Post
    Its not a money problem on the developers side anyway --- I am a programmer, and its a very simple fix, you just set the attribute that governs how a window handles focus when it is created or if that is not possible, create the window unseen, force focus to remain with the old window, then unhide the new window is a workaround its like 5 lines of code tops, if its just the attribute its not even code, just a check box in the IDE.
    Regular windows UI programming != DirectX UI programming. Go write a DirectX application with GUI and say that again with a straight face

  5. #5

    Re: Suggestions /beg

    Quote Originally Posted by VmirTehPwn View Post
    Regular windows UI programming != DirectX UI programming. Go write a DirectX application with GUI and say that again with a straight face
    Could be, I have popped up normal windows on top of DX applications and that works out fine, but have never made the popped windows fancy or skinned. It would be unacceptably ugly in a game to do that of course. But I am unconvinced there is no easy way to handle it either, even if that means let the popup have focus, and have it take the keyboard focus too (discard all input even would be a clean fix -- all it has to do is prevent keybound skills from firing). This should be a relatively small fix (add the call to get the input, and throw it away, right, understanding that the call here is probably an existing thread so just needs to be started from the popup), even if the skinned window classes do not support the standard gui stuff (not sure what those windows are capable of, are they not normal windows with a draw method added?).

    I may take you up on this, would be something I have never had a reason to do and so I have a knowledge gap here =). If I can find a day or 2 of peace to check it out.
    Draegon:
    "stack all the morale you want but dont come on here wonderin why you aint hittin hard! :D"

  6. #6

    Re: Suggestions /beg

    But I am unconvinced there is no easy way to handle it either
    Programming an in-game GUI like we're dealing with in LOTRO has nothing whatsoever to do with GUI programming in normal windows programs*. A game's GUI system has to be built entirely on top of the 3D API, which means you're either going to be writing it yourself or using a third party GUI library like (random example) CEGUI. A company like Turbine is almost certainly using their own in-house GUI system, and the only way there will be an easy fix to the problem is if Turbine has already built that in their GUI libraries. And that isn't very likely.

    *There are exceptions. For example, with some work you can take Qt and mix it with a 3D engine like OGRE, so that the 3D environment is rendered in a Qt window and you can use some of Qt's GUI elements on top of it.. However, I've only ever seen hobbyists play around with this method, I don't know of a single commercial game that actually tries to do it - probably due to the performance penalties you take.
    [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/merayn/]Merayn[/url], [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/merras/]Merras[/url], [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/merad/]Merad[/url], [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/meradoci/]Meradoci[/url], [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/merali/]Merali[/url]

  7. #7

    Re: Suggestions /beg

    Quote Originally Posted by forusrname View Post
    Its not a money problem on the developers side anyway --- I am a programmer, and its a very simple fix, you just set the attribute that governs how a window handles focus when it is created or if that is not possible, create the window unseen, force focus to remain with the old window, then unhide the new window is a workaround its like 5 lines of code tops, if its just the attribute its not even code, just a check box in the IDE.
    I would not go so far as to say it is that easy. This situation typically only occurs when the code base is controlled by 10 or less developers all under the same supervisor.

    In Turbine case, you got a code base that is shared by three game development teams and a common platform group (which if IIRC is under the finance branch).

    Some of this code, there is nobody currently on the LOTRO team knows anything about. It is legacy code. Or was created years ago long before live launch. Even if the owner still around, she has looked at in so long. Does not even remember with model the source code is in.

    More than once, I had a million lines of code to be responsible for. Some one ask me a question. Idano. My code does that? Hun. Must be in the 900,000 lines I've never touched or looked at.
    You get face with:

    1) Developer 3. I am not messing with that. It works fine. Leave it alone. If it isn't broken. Do not mess with it.

    2) Since Developer 3, will not do it. You can not proceed. All UI elements work the same.

    3) You go to their sup. Screw that. We got too much to do. Yeah I know Yula. You are qualified to mod this kind of code. You are not touching our code. It belongs to us.

    4) You have to work your way up the management chain. Next thing you know you are up at some VP or Sr VP. They go.

    What is return on investment? Will this cause customers to pay one more month before quitting? Will this increase free trial conversions?

    Once you got the business case worked out. Costs. Risks. Return. Give it to me. I have someone check your figures. The numbers look good. I will discuss at the next management meeting. See if you can send it down to all the impacted groups for their costs, risks, impact to their schedules.

    Remember this is not a single player game running on a PC. It is a client server application with a customer 3d UI. It is a lot more complicated than a simple Java app. I've had the pleasure of working on a cell phone UI. It is very interesting how the UI interacts with the underlying real life apps
    Last edited by Yula_the_Mighty; Apr 07 2010 at 02:21 PM.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

 

 

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