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Thread: 2H dps question

  1. #1
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    2H dps question

    Well, not specifically DPS...

    here's the thing: My cappy is currently lvl 30, just got the +2% to halberd skill. I have a 27.1dps halberd, and a 21.7dps 1h axe, and the captain shield from the lvl30 capt quest.

    DS will do ~70-121 damage (per tooltip) with the halberd equipped.
    DS will do ~41-76 damage (per tooltip) with S&B equipped.
    I think i got the number right, or pretty darn close iirc

    Well, those number seem skewed a bit out of whack to me...

    I know I must be missing something, cause the ~25% difference in weapon dps doesnt account for the ~40% difference in DS damage. (other skills have similar damage disparities)

    weapon speed make up the whole 15% difference, or is there something else im just not seeing?
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  2. #2
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    Re: 2H dps question

    Quote Originally Posted by aleczander View Post
    Well, not specifically DPS...

    here's the thing: My cappy is currently lvl 30, just got the +2% to halberd skill. I have a 27.1dps halberd, and a 21.7dps 1h axe, and the captain shield from the lvl30 capt quest.

    DS will do ~70-121 damage (per tooltip) with the halberd equipped.
    DS will do ~41-76 damage (per tooltip) with S&B equipped.
    I think i got the number right, or pretty darn close iirc

    Well, those number seem skewed a bit out of whack to me...

    I know I must be missing something, cause the ~25% difference in weapon dps doesnt account for the ~40% difference in DS damage. (other skills have similar damage disparities)

    weapon speed make up the whole 15% difference, or is there something else im just not seeing?
    I *think* the halberd has a higher crit rating, and maybe that effects it.

  3. #3

    Re: 2H dps question

    a 2 handed weapon is contributing damage for both your main hand and off hand slots. with s/b youre only getting damage from your main hand.

  4. #4
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    Re: 2H dps question

    Quote Originally Posted by newwwwb View Post
    a 2 handed weapon is contributing damage for both your main hand and off hand slots. with s/b youre only getting damage from your main hand.
    which makes sense: that is why same lvl halberd had 27.1dps vs. same lvl 1haxe has 21.7dps.

    The damage skills on my cappy apparently translates something somewhere that results in +15% damage from 2h weapons. I'm assuming this is normal, just wondering about specific numbers.
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    Re: 2H dps question

    Quote Originally Posted by IowaHawk View Post
    I *think* the halberd has a higher crit rating, and maybe that effects it.
    Wrong. Besides the captain +2% passive for halberds, halberds only have an innate higher threat than other weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by newwwwb View Post
    a 2 handed weapon is contributing damage for both your main hand and off hand slots. with s/b youre only getting damage from your main hand.
    True...
    Though don't forget that shield stats can affect DPS effectiveness as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by aleczander View Post
    I know I must be missing something, cause the ~25% difference in weapon dps doesnt account for the ~40% difference in DS damage. (other skills have similar damage disparities)

    weapon speed make up the whole 15% difference, or is there something else im just not seeing?
    What was true pre-SoM was that DPS skills use multipliers, and I believe that's still true now for all classes regardless of normalization. A multiplier on a higher damage range for the 2H is going to produce a larger gain over a 1H, supposedly. There's no way I'm going to attempt any math at this hour in the morning, though, so I'll leave the nitty gritty to someone else.
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    Re: 2H dps question

    Quote Originally Posted by Trilwych View Post
    Wrong. Besides the captain +2% passive for halberds, halberds only have an innate higher threat than other weapons.
    My bad, I thought captains received a crit rating bonus going from 1h to 2h (or SOMETHING to that effect)...but I have been on a lot of cold medicine.

  7. #7

    Re: 2H dps question

    Quote Originally Posted by aleczander View Post
    which makes sense: that is why same lvl halberd had 27.1dps vs. same lvl 1haxe has 21.7dps.

    The damage skills on my cappy apparently translates something somewhere that results in +15% damage from 2h weapons. I'm assuming this is normal, just wondering about specific numbers.
    2 things:

    1. your main hand contributes much more to your dps than your off hand.

    2. the extra stats on a shield could boost your damage.

  8. #8
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    Re: 2H dps question

    Quote Originally Posted by newwwwb View Post
    2 things:

    1. your main hand contributes much more to your dps than your off hand.

    2. the extra stats on a shield could boost your damage.
    I agree on both points. But, how does that help to figure out the damage difference. Both my 1H sword AND my halberd use the SAME main hand slot. So absolutely no difference there.

    The shield could boost damage, but apparently it's not, or atleast not doing much.

    Trilwych is probably pretty close to the mark as far as explaining the mystery difference in damage. I just never saw any numbers for this on the forums (or maybe missed it)
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    Re: 2H dps question

    Quote Originally Posted by aleczander View Post
    I agree on both points. But, how does that help to figure out the damage difference. Both my 1H sword AND my halberd use the SAME main hand slot. So absolutely no difference there.

    The shield could boost damage, but apparently it's not, or atleast not doing much.

    Trilwych is probably pretty close to the mark as far as explaining the mystery difference in damage. I just never saw any numbers for this on the forums (or maybe missed it)
    Well, let's take a closer look. We're missing auto-attack ranges, though, for a better comparison.

    Re:main hand damage, you're missing the off-hand damage addition, however; let's assume MH contributes a higher damage multiplier also altered by Might (etc.), but a 2H essentially takes both slots for the additional +OH damage, as newwwwb pointed out.

    In other words, if MH weapon damage for both is (weapon*1xx%) and OH weapon damage is a fraction of 100% like it is for dual-wielding, then--

    2H actual DPS = (weapon*1xx%) + (weapon*xx%) + (skill modifier)
    1H actual DPS = (weapon*1xx%) + 0 + (skill modifier)

    Even with skill modifiers, the primary difference could be coming just from the off-hand number.

    I've never given it much theorycrafting thought, though, since I figure the only basic weapon DPS rule people should know is that 2H > 1H. LotRO is a bit less number-crunchy than other games that are far more transparent in terms of mechanics formulae.
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  10. #10
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    Re: 2H dps question

    where does it say that there is an off-hand damage multiplier for 2H weapons...anywhere? Not saying you're crazy, just never ever heard of that before now.

    assuming you have some fairly accurate data, then the offhand multiplier must ~+15%... interesting

    As far as 2H > 1H... i thought that came merely from comparing DPS (per tooltip description and char sheet) only at equal leveled weapons...

    What throws me off is, i can compare tact offence or melee offence ratings and their effects on my different skills (DB, DS, etc) and get some numbers that make sense, but the 2h vs 1h numbers don't appear anywhere, so the only reason i noticed it at all was by comparing a skill with two different weapons equipped (i was tipsy i think..)
    Last edited by aleczander; Apr 01 2010 at 04:18 PM.
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    Re: 2H dps question

    Quote Originally Posted by aleczander View Post
    where does it say that there is an off-hand damage multiplier for 2H weapons...anywhere? Not saying you're crazy, just never ever heard of that before now.

    assuming you have some fairly accurate data, then the offhand multiplier must ~+15%... interesting
    No, the gist of the logic is that you're using both hands to swing a bigger weapon for bigger hits as opposed to using one hand. The trade-off is either defense from a shield OR faster and smaller hits with dual-wielding. Depending on class.

    (Why does dual-wielding weapons end up giving more damage than single-wielding a one-hander?)

    I certainly don't know the exact multipliers and modifiers in these cases, but it does make sense that 2H weapon damage will produce higher output than merely comparing main hand values. The best comparison, though, is if you have a bunch of auto-attack ranges with the same 2H/1H setup. Any further differences could then be attributed more to actual skill modifiers and not something else.

    As far as 2H > 1H... i thought that came merely from comparing DPS (per tooltip description and char sheet) only at equal leveled weapons...
    Well, yes, the weapons should be equal level. A 2H level 30 halberd will never out-DPS a 1H 65...
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    Re: 2H dps question

    Quote Originally Posted by Trilwych View Post
    (Why does dual-wielding weapons end up giving more damage than single-wielding a one-hander?)

    .
    um, cause you have two weapons equipped instead of one? or do you mean something else? you can look at main-hand dps and off-hand dps in the character sheet... but how that translated to actual damage when using autoattacks in conjunction with damage skills... need a set or parses i guess.

    Anyway, numbers aside, it feels like the halberd with it's +40% damage over the S&B is far superior - the benefits of a little extra armor, a little vitality, a little extra crit defence all combined don't nearly measure up to the lots of extra damage...at least from what I can see so far.
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    Re: 2H dps question

    It's because the halberd is a 2 hander and therefore has a slower attack speed than your 1 hander.

    Skills do a percent (usually 100%) of base weapon damage, plus an additional amount that scales with weapon speed. The slower the weapon speed, the bigger the bonus.

    Before SoM, skill tooltips would say something like:

    Base damage + 56

    If you switched in a slower weapon the 56 could up to say 72.

    In SoM the tooltip was changed to tell you the exact amount of damage, before armour/mitigations. So now the same tooltip would say 112 - 170 or something.

    The bonus damage is still there you just don't see it because it's being included in the range.

  14. #14

    Re: 2H dps question

    Quote Originally Posted by aleczander View Post

    and the captain shield from the lvl30 capt quest.
    Ok, this is a noob question. I'm rolling a capt right now who's at lvl 36. What lvl 30 capt quest for a shield are you refering to. I did one where I had to hoist some banners for some virtue but I must have missed something cause I don't recall a specific quest for a shield.

    Who gives it and where can I find them?
    .

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    Re: 2H dps question

    http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Quest...n%27s_Standard

    Edit: Linked to the instance, not the actual quest. Here it shows the rewards.
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    Re: 2H dps question

    weapon speed
    1 handers have higher attack speed
    nuff said
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    Re: 2H dps question

    so slower attack speed compensated with bigger skill damage bonus.. cool

    when SoM changed the tooltips, i didn't know if mechanics had also changed or not.

    Thanks for the clarification!
    This begs a new question: does the extra auto-attacks from a faster-weapon come close to equaling the dps of a 2Hander? including skill damage? combination? or does the extra dps from the extra hits of higher weapon speed not compare to the damage bonus of a 2h when applied to BOTH auto-attacks AND damage skills?
    someone would have had to crunch some parse numbers to figure out that one i guess....
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    Re: 2H dps question

    well of course not
    after all what would be the point of equipping 2 handers if they didn't grant you more damage
    besides unless you idle a lot during fights you'll only get 1 autoattack in between skills (if you activate skills too fast sometimes you won't get any at all)
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    Re: 2H dps question

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcircus View Post
    besides unless you idle a lot during fights you'll only get 1 autoattack in between skills (if you activate skills too fast sometimes you won't get any at all)
    I think you're operating on old information that's no longer valid. Pre-SoM, the auto-attack timer was in-line with your skill rotation and thus could interfere--especially if delaying a skill (real obvious if you were using a 3.4 halberd or something and needed to kick). That also meant you could avoid AA by mashing buttons, which also dropped your power bar faster--and which is why, pre-SoM, captains were advised to allow an AA within skill queues. These days, our power bar can still drop just as fast when mashing, but the AA allowance is no longer something we can queue as a buffer into a skill rotation because they fire in the background. That means captains are now generally advised to always DS between skills (allow the CD to be a buffer, I suppose), or just allow more time. Basically, for DPS-power balance reasons, post-SoM captains found themselves trying out new combat skill rotations.

    Dev Diary. Clarification.


    Quote Originally Posted by aleczander View Post
    so slower attack speed compensated with bigger skill damage bonus.. cool

    when SoM changed the tooltips, i didn't know if mechanics had also changed or not.

    Thanks for the clarification!
    This begs a new question: does the extra auto-attacks from a faster-weapon come close to equaling the dps of a 2Hander? including skill damage? combination? or does the extra dps from the extra hits of higher weapon speed not compare to the damage bonus of a 2h when applied to BOTH auto-attacks AND damage skills?
    someone would have had to crunch some parse numbers to figure out that one i guess....
    No, the AAs are a small increase in overall DPS for both 2H/1H because captain DPS is almost entirely skill-based (I think someone parsed this at some point, but anyway).

    You're still missing the auto-attack rotation to differentiate skill-based increases and just the weapon tooltip. What you could do is record a bunch of mob hits only on auto-attack for each same-level weapon, then compare to the same number of Def. Strike hits on the same mob for each weapon--though in the latter experiment, you'd have to turn off AA (there should still be an option to do so, not sure).

    Again, unless you're going to obsess in real min-maxing, all you need to know is that for captains, because we have no offensive shield abilities and can't dual-wield, 2H > 1H damage, always. However, the difference in overall DPS over time isn't as huge as it was pre-SoM, when all weapons had speed ratings and many captains opted for the 3.x halberds.

    For purely DPS reasons, go 2H. If you're a defensive player or like the shield stats for, say, healing, go 1H+S.
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    Re: 2H dps question

    Quote Originally Posted by aleczander View Post
    ....
    This begs a new question: does the extra auto-attacks from a faster-weapon come close to equaling the dps of a 2Hander? including skill damage? combination? or does the extra dps from the extra hits of higher weapon speed not compare to the damage bonus of a 2h when applied to BOTH auto-attacks AND damage skills?
    someone would have had to crunch some parse numbers to figure out that one i guess....
    From the testing I've done, the DPS drop off is about 25%.
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  21. #21

    Re: 2H dps question

    Quote Originally Posted by SGWB View Post
    From the testing I've done, the DPS drop off is about 25%.
    My cappy is lvl 23 so i'm a complete newb on this.

    Are there any cappy skills that open up on crit?
    If so, faster wep --> higher probability of critting.
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  22. Re: 2H dps question

    Quote Originally Posted by lariva View Post
    My cappy is lvl 23 so i'm a complete newb on this.

    Are there any cappy skills that open up on crit?
    If so, faster wep --> higher probability of critting.
    Yes, defeat responses open up with a crit from devastating blow or pressing attack. However, because these are typically gated behind a timed attack (battle shout), weapon speed will not increase your chances of getting a crit from them. The exception to this general rule is a marginal one (the red legendary trait). But it is so rare that it can generally be ignored in this accounting.

    Weapon speed is generally important for three reasons to cappies:
    - getting the most bang for our buck on a crit
    - managing power by slowing down our attack sequence
    - not running out of buttons to click for people who have not managed their attack sequence well.

    Pre-Mirkwood, this meant that captains almost universally went for slow two-handers. With weapon regularization, the choice is a little more up in the air.
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    Re: 2H dps question

    Quote Originally Posted by seyahat View Post
    Yes, defeat responses open up with a crit from devastating blow or pressing attack. However, because these are typically gated behind a timed attack (battle shout), weapon speed will not increase your chances of getting a crit from them.
    Not only that, but the primary crit-defeat skills from DB/PA--Rallying, Routing, War-cry--themselves have long cooldowns (45 secs base). Even if you crit all the time starting from the root Battle-shout, those three skills will likely all be on cooldown, rendering higher frequency moot. Everything else, agreed.
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    Re: 2H dps question

    Quote Originally Posted by lariva View Post
    My cappy is lvl 23 so i'm a complete newb on this.

    Are there any cappy skills that open up on crit?
    If so, faster wep --> higher probability of critting.

    In short, no. A fast weapon will not help.

    We are not like Burgs or Champs where any crit will open up new attack strings.

    A crit on Pressing Attack or Devastating Blow will open up a captain's on-defeat skills. But since you can only use PA/DB (mutually exclusive) every 15 to 20 second, a faster weapon won't help. When traited a certain way, A crit with Shadows Lament will allow you to follow up with another PA/DB, but that itself is on a 45 second cooldown and gated behind an enemy defeat (or a PA/DB crit).
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