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  1. #26

    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakho View Post
    being both a tank and a DPS and a healer at times, I've seen the ballpark from all sides. And the first thing I have to say is that the people who tend to have the least understanding in those situations where things go bad are those who have the least experience with any role outside of their own.
    I agree totally. I always worry when I ask people about their alts and find they only play champ or only play hunter and they think other classes are boring.

    Groups are an entirely different situation than soloing. You have to change how you play to match your groups composition. If you have extra champs you may want to bunch the bad guys up and interrupt/AoE like crazy as much as possible. If you have burgs/LMs you want to CC and single target DPS when you can (hunter - stop spamming rain of arrows, please). If you dont know how the other classes play, you are ill prepared to figuring out how to adapt to your new groups makeup.
    [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/mandywun]Mandywun[/url], Minstrel 61 (SM/K Tailor) - [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/gwennethwun]Gwennethwun[/url], Guardian 65 (SM/K Metalsmith)
    [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/briannawun]Briannawun[/url], Burglar 65 (SM/K Jeweler) - [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/hollywun]Hollywun[/url], Hunter 65 (SM/K Woodworker)
    [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/ranzarawun]Ranzarawun[/url], Runekeeper 65 (SM/K Scholar) - [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/ranzarawun]Catharinewun[/url], Captain 29 (K Weaponsmith)

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  2. #27
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    A note on the current state of tanking: With the current state of mob resist rates, guards are going to struggle a little more (I don't know how much resists affect wardens) than normal. You may think since guards are basically just melee, resists shouldn't have a great impact, but a lot of the threat components of a guard's bag of tricks are resistible. You may need to be a little more patient w/ your guard until the resist rates get (hopefully) brought back down a bit.
    [b][size=1][color=#7C8FA2][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/dahm"][color=#7C8FA2]Dahm[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65H[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thuli"][color=#7C8FA2]Thuli[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65G[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/Dudarian"][color=#7C8FA2]Dudarian[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]20W[/color] [color=#6C7F92]::[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-brandywine-grey_wanderers/"][color=#7C8FA2]The Grey Wanderers[/color][/URL] of Brandywine[/color]
    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
    [color=#448877][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/vilya/dahms"][color=#448877]Dahm's Evil Twin[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]31H[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-vilya-and_my_awesome_friends/"][color=#448877]And My Awesome Friends[/color][/URL][color=#303030]_[/color] [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=313143"][I][COLOR=DarkRed]a permadeath kin on Vilya[/COLOR][/URL][/I][/color][SIZE="3"][color=#303030]_[/color][/SIZE]

    [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=92210"]Camp Site List[/URL] [/b][COLOR=#8C9FB2]||[/COLOR] [B][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?338615-Regen&p=4742372#post4742372"]Regen (PIC/MIC) from Fate[/URL] [COLOR=#8C9FB2][/B]||[B] Convert Ratings to Percent[/B]: [B][/COLOR][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=4082215#post4082215"]BPE/Crit/Etc.[/URL][/B][/size]

  3. #28
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    Wisdom.
    This should be required reading for, like, everybody. I'd recommend it as a tooltip popup the first time anyone joined a fellowship if I wasn't certain it would be closed immediately.

    I also think it's interesting how many Hunter forum vets have high-level Guards. Playing both really helps you understand the group dynamics and be a better player overall. It's easy for a DPS class to pull something off a tank and chastise them for not immediately getting it back or write them off as a poor player; understanding things like reactive skill chains and a head-start for threat is a must for anyone who doesn't want to earn a hun**** or champ**** label.
    Nemesis - Brandywine
    Jenith 100 Hunter || Gavigan 78 Guardian || Kazamir 76 Captain
    Gjorn 65 Champion || Anavel 65 Burglar || Thissis 100 Warden || Mezimus 70 Loremaster

  4. #29

    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    I've always thought Chumpion flowed better than Champ****. Just throwing that out there.
    [LEFT][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen][B]7 Level 65s: Champ, Hunter, Guardian, Captain, RK, LM, Burglar[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=YellowGreen] [B]All of them are sick of grinding Scrolls of Empowerment[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=Red][B]Awaiting change...[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
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  5. #30
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Yeah, but as you can see, Chumpion doesn't get censored. Going for symmetry here!
    Nemesis - Brandywine
    Jenith 100 Hunter || Gavigan 78 Guardian || Kazamir 76 Captain
    Gjorn 65 Champion || Anavel 65 Burglar || Thissis 100 Warden || Mezimus 70 Loremaster

  6. #31
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aidus View Post
    LOL last night on the twins in BG I was focus burn on Morgaraf in endurance and ended up grabbing aggro. The worst part is both tanks and the champ were in the other group so I got no aggro relief other than Beneath Care (I still LOVE that skill name, and like being almost invisable), then spamming traited QS. I was torn on what to do, it is a DPS race and I felt I should contribute.

    The worse part is that same run we had a bad run of Corruption Removal misses on Cargaraf, so our Range tank died. Stance-Dance S:S and PS>SB>PS I got aggro and we stabilized only to wipe with Morg at 6k and Carg at like 4....

    BLEH last night was a BAD night in BG for me.

    Ohhh yeah and on topic. Warden's could use a percieved theat move or Threat copy since there snap aggro doesn't last very long.
    Remember that Hunters acting as DPS on Morgaraf are very, very risky, as he takes more incoming ranged damage than he does melee damage. I, too, have pulled aggro on him while in Endurance stance (and died for my noobiness).

    As for the relationship between classes... I'm the type of healer that WILL ABSOLUTELY let the stupid Hunter die if they are consistently pulling aggro and acting like being able to pull aggro means they are uber. If they accidentally pull aggro and work to correct the problem, I'll heal them. Oh, and to say that if the tank dies it's the healers fault is a complete fallacy... as is saying if the healer dies it's the tanks fault. And it's not only the fault of the DPS class if they die... a dps class can be doing their job entirely perfectly and be taking unavoidable aoe damage, therefore healers must heal them.

    I think it boils down to the fact that good players can cover over a lot of their fellows faults by compensating for weaker players. It's just more noticeable when the weaker players are DPS, because there are necessarily more DPS people in groups than heals/support/tank.
    Narlinde, level 100 Minstrel, Rank 11, Member of Trucido ~ Windfola

  7. #32

    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    something else to consider for tanks

    someone who is doing dps i.e. hunter or champion or burg etc. groups with a lot of different tanks often a different one every group.
    if i'm on hunter and wait 5 seconds then open with qs qs qs barbed ps in endurance with tank a and mob doesn't budge ok thats 1 lvl of competence. If i open with qs qs after 5 seconds in endurance with tank b and the mob flips to me for a second well thats another lvl of competence.

    with the varying lvls of skill with people tanking immediately saying oh dps pulled aggro don't heal them let them die while common isn't necessarily going to be efficient. we need to do some testing with each tank we group with to see how much dmg we can output and after how much time.

    there have been a very few tanks i've grouped with who could hold aggro on mobs over my hunter in strength then recently i grouped with an experienced tank who lost aggro after 5s to my champ on its first autoattack (simpley clicked the mob with aa on no skills yet) and complained about it.

    the equation posted i can sortof agree with

    1) if tank dies its tanks & or healers fault (pulling too much not popping pledge etc)
    2) if healer dies its tanks fault (leaving the healer to tank because you are too lazy or want to teach them a lesson is just going to waste time)
    (on a side note why do so many tanks insist on fighting dps for brute aggro in sg while all the shieldwalled mobs are on the healer (me).. yes i can tank better on minstrel than some guards doesn't mean i want to blow my cooldowns before the boss.. or group with them again).

    if dps dies its combination of healer, dps, and tanks fault.

    It is possible for tanks to hold aggro over dps 99.9% of the time so they probably could have held it if they knew their class better we know this because we've grouped with that top tier of tanks. Its sometimes the healers fault because they wanted to 'teach a lesson' sure that works let someone die because you can't be bothered to hit a key. again we group with many healers the good ones are competent enough to heal more than 1 person in most fights and we don't always want to take 3 times as long for a simple instance (consider sg times range from ~30 minutes to ~70 depending on strat and group).
    And finally if dps does die it is also the dps class fault for pulling more than can be healed or for grouping with people who don't want to heal dps because they have a preconceived notion of how pulls should be.

    the idea that someone in this game always is @ the top of their game doing maximum dps or aggro or healing that is useful in that instant is laughable. so try to improve
    mudge lvl 65 hunter; 65 minstrel; 65 champion;65 burglar; 65 loremaster; 65 warden; 65 captain
    58 runekeeper.. retired
    vilya

  8. #33
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    As a tank, if a dps pulls a mob i think they should be able to handle (usually a class I play), i let them coast a bit, and only pick up if it looks like its going downhill. For repeat offenders, its really a judgement of how they are playng in the run. If it seems like the hunter has a method to his madness (he's targetting ranged mobs, or pulling adds off healer etc), its usually okay. It's really about how i think the class is doing in their role, and this again is another situation where experience with the classes helps.

    As a healer, I try to keep everyone alive . But if health bars are going down fast, I will usually prioritize. Tank, offtank, dps who can heal...and last on my list unfortunately are the 'DPS'. And same for me when it comes to stupidity. I certainly don't allow any DPS who pull aggro to fend for themselves, but any who show obvious issues...breaking CC multiple times, not targeting tanks target, aggroing extra mobs, etc...yeah at that point i usually give them a message. I try polite suggestions in fellow chat first, but some folks dont get it.

    I had a Chumpion in a group one time ( I think I was OP on my guard, main tank was a warden iirc, good one at that). He was doing the typical bad stuff...AoE to early, breaking CC, pulling aggro on multiple mobs. If it was an issue with the tank I woudl have let it go. But he was everywhere, and I could tell the healer was struggling too. then to top it off he ws rolling on SA LI's even after group concensus that you passed clas specific stuff to the classes in the group, etc.

    Finally the healer just stopped healing him. 2-3 requests, discussion in group, and no change. so no heals. After about 3 deaths he dropped group. This is the kind of stuff that warrants that 'pull aggro no heals' behavior, and why many healers (and tanks) have a tendency to let DPS fend for themselves.
    My alternate Personality is Elyxthaxzus. Plz dont confuse us, were actually quite different.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000240062/01006/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  9. #34
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakho View Post
    He was doing the typical bad stuff... ...breaking CC...
    If a champ is breaking CC, it's likely the CC's fault. Don't mez stuff that's in the middle of melee.
    [CENTER][FONT=Book Antiqua][COLOR=dimgray]::: [SIZE=3][URL="http://waywatchersofcardolan.guildportal.com"][COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=4]T[/SIZE]he [SIZE=4]W[/SIZE]aywatchers of [SIZE=4]C[/SIZE]ardolan[/COLOR][/URL] [SIZE=2]:[/SIZE] [URL="http://palantiri.guildportal.com"][COLOR=LightBlue][SIZE=4]T[/SIZE]he [SIZE=4]P[/SIZE]alantiri[/COLOR][/URL][/SIZE] :::[/COLOR][/FONT]
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  10. #35
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?








    I'm not sure how this relates to the OP. But it must.
    [COLOR=CYAN][SIZE=3]Hat Beerbane, Former .xls Wizard and Hunter Blogger[/SIZE]
    [/color]

  11. #36

    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    When you just can't make you child fat enough...start the next one off on Bacon Formula! It's good for them too, there's 4 "nutritious" servings of bacon in every scoop!

    Staggering.
    [LEFT][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen][B]7 Level 65s: Champ, Hunter, Guardian, Captain, RK, LM, Burglar[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=YellowGreen] [B]All of them are sick of grinding Scrolls of Empowerment[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=Red][B]Awaiting change...[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [/LEFT]

  12. #37
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    that might be nice if the kid isn't in america. We have enough fat kids and adults as is.
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  13. #38
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWood View Post
    If a champ is breaking CC, it's likely the CC's fault. Don't mez stuff that's in the middle of melee.
    Q-F-T

    On my LM I view my CC as a fail if it wasn't crucial and/or was in aoe range of melees that were not warned. Which is why I make the pulls when I'm on my LM, to make sure the DPS doesn't break them. Most of the time I really don't care, it doesn't matter too much.
    [url=my.lotro.com/character/nimrodel/Dagalace][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b0000000d6145/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig][/url] [color=deepskyblue]
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  14. #39
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    I would normally agree with not mezzing something in the middle of the mob cept under certain moments.

    Rift for example:

    Its been a while since Ive played in it so my enemy names suck but.

    The Healing Chicks and the Aura of Command guys are the main exception to this.

    Although due to back then Champs never understading the momentary line of NO AOEs I would have everyone stop attacking so we could CC those enemies and all of us move somewhere to drag the others away so the carnage can continue.
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  15. #40
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Conversely, on the last two SG runs I tanked, I saw one champ in particular bee-line for the CC'ed mobs while I was still tanking things.
    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  16. #41
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Most champs IMO are idiots.

    Like Hunters.

    They see that glow ball go past them and think, "OH SHINY!" and attack it.

    Low n behold they just woke up the one guy you were to NOT touch.

    Thankyou for human idiocy in its most simplistic form.

    This touches onto my thing with Champs and stating NO AOEs. I swear people know what an AoE actually is. Youd think they read skills that have Max Targets of 2+ is an AoE. Apparently not.

    I dont give a flying **** if you say, "Oh im a champ and all my DPS comes from my AoE skills."
    Bull****. Ive run with Champs for 3 years. I know the class well enough to know it deals good enough DPS with Single Target DPS. Might want to get it in the brain that when NO AOE is stated....Might be a reason sparky! Same goes with Hunters. No AOE means NO RAIN OF ARROWS/THORNS or LOW CUT!

    Ugh see now im all upset due to idiocy in group play and im at work. Not even on the game.
    Last edited by Kannos1600; Apr 01 2010 at 03:25 PM.
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  17. #42
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    I just berate people mercilessly... I am truly convinced that competent group place is preceded by a decent working knowledge of all the class mechanics. All too often, I see players "thinking like their class" and playing how they would solo or duo rather than taking a moment to contemplate how their skill set meshes with the roles of others.
    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  18. #43
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    I think ima live up to my Hunter name soon enough and just hate people in general.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Meh maybe not.
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  19. #44
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    This whole thread reminds me of a few instance runs I did back when the Lothlorien cluster of instances came out. I ran several groups through HoC in an effort to brush up on grouping fundamentals with my kinmates. The very first pull with 8 or so goblins was an eye opener. I was playing on my tank. I'd pull the first group with no CC and drop fairly quickly. The group would wipe and everyone would be wondering what happened. This led the way for a lot of practice with group synergy. The LM's realized they could do more than use their one mez to ensure survival: Air-lore, Fire-lore, off-heals, etc. Champs realized that if they used their initial 5 fervour pips for Sound the Attack instead of raging blades that the tank would stay alive longer and they wouldn't drop like a fly from all that initial aggro. Burgs realized that they would actualy pop a CJ PROACTIVELY at the beginning of a tough pull to heal through it. Minstrels realized that Cry of the Chorus still actually worked, and would let them start out with Anthem of Compassion to avoid initial healing aggro. I could continue, but you get the idea. I would say that most players only fulfill less than 50% of their potential fellowship contribution. This is partially due to a lack of knowledge about other classes' abilities as well as the unfortunate fact that this level of synergy isn't necessary to complete LOTRO's mind-numbingly easy 6-mans. Anyway, after the initial lessons, our group blew through HoC like a hurricane, chewing up everything in our path.

  20. #45
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Im a little upset that now for players to aquire armor is to simply farm GS or SH now and only maybe touch onto the other zones if they want to finish a class quest.

    I dont know how many others love to play in new dungeons when they come out but Ive only missed one dungeon so far and thats Dungeons of DG. Havnt had a huge urge for it nor do I find many who are wanting to do it. Course me being who I am thats a lame excuse for being lazy since I typically run my own groups but still.

    Alot of gamers only know SH EM and thats it. SG, WP, DoDG with BG in Mirkwood are available but most people dont want to do them because it takes to long or what ever.

    Although the gating of medallions in X to get Armor Piece Y is a good idea but I would love to see it setup so players would be more inclined to play the other dungeons somehow.

    Playing GS 100+ times is as boring as Ball n Cup. Ill pass thankyou unless im that bored. Give me some Forges damn it! That can take a mere 20 minutes which if you do HM its I think less than it takes to do a HM GS run.
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  21. #46
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    The Annuminas barter system was quite good since you had to barter both the fragments and the special boss drop piece and the bosses had a tendency to drop at least something and there were multiple possible nice drops in their loot tables.
    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  22. #47
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    yah n the sets took a while to gain which was a slight down some at the time to other sets more quicker to obtain at the time so alot of players skipped it.

    I really liked the more than 6 pieces to obtain full bonuses for that set.
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  23. #48
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalthyn View Post
    Wow, really? It's generally a bad idea to tell folks how to play their toons. Many of us are specced to primarily be in Precision.
    Really? I don't know any hunters who are specced to be in Precision.

    I'm a heavy dps, if its trash mobs I'm always S:S because I can kill them before they pose a threat to me. If its a 20k mob or something like that (think SG) I'm in S:S watching my threat, ie: beneath care and switching into endurance. I don't mind if I pull one off the gaurd cause I can take care of myself. If its a boss fight then its endurance till about half health.

    I've run everything doing it that way and have had gaurds who I never pulled aggro from and some who couldn't keep it off me when I'm -70% threat... depends also how good the gaurd is.
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  24. #49

    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fendrone View Post
    Really? I don't know any hunters who are specced to be in Precision.

    I'm a heavy dps, if its trash mobs I'm always S:S because I can kill them before they pose a threat to me. If its a 20k mob or something like that (think SG) I'm in S:S watching my threat, ie: beneath care and switching into endurance. I don't mind if I pull one off the gaurd cause I can take care of myself. If its a boss fight then its endurance till about half health.

    I've run everything doing it that way and have had gaurds who I never pulled aggro from and some who couldn't keep it off me when I'm -70% threat... depends also how good the gaurd is.

    Most raid hunters I know spec S:P, I even S:P spec for range tanking Cargaraf. I find it most entertaining when I get in a group with the "heavy DPS Hunter" and after about 3 minutes or so of a boss fight they have dropped below me on the threat table even though I am running S:P and I am only traited one or two deep in bowmaster.

    The school of thought on S:P Huntsman is to hit more often more quickly with no artificial threat inflation. I am not sure why anyone would want +power costs and +threat unless they are tanking. But the damage from the S:S build does not justify the costs of up to +40% threat.

    Just my thoughts.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000bd0ff/signature.png]Aidus[/charsig]

    "Live and Let Die"

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    PA
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    4,740

    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    I just berate people mercilessly... I am truly convinced that competent group place is preceded by a decent working knowledge of all the class mechanics. All too often, I see players "thinking like their class" and playing how they would solo or duo rather than taking a moment to contemplate how their skill set meshes with the roles of others.
    all to true my friend. All to true.
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

 

 
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