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  1. #1
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    Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    This is based on another forum wherein a tank was concerned that he was missing some vital piece of info or skill he needed as a tank. He claimed that he can typicaly tank very well, but in a group with multiple DPSers he has a hard time. I guess the group wiped while he was tanking cause a DPSer pulled off him and he felt bad about it.

    The rest of the forum assured him that it happens to the best of us, and that a DPSer gone rouge is something you can't feel rsponsible for, that it is just as much the DPSers job to watch their own aggro as it is the tanks jobs to hold it.

    In fact many had the opinion that a DPSer that pulls off the tank should be left to die to teach them a lesson.

    The following equation was offered up:

    If the Healer dies, its the tank's fault
    If the Tank dies, it's the Healer's Fault
    If the DPS dies, it's their own fault.

    As a person who mains a tank, I am inclined to agree with this, and 99% of the time I don't have a problem with DPSers pulling off me. But what is your view, as a DPS forum.

    If I am up-front tanking a mob, and you pull him off me, is your first reaction more likly to be "be nice if somone could tank." or "sorry guys that was my bad."

    Anyone can screw up once. Let's say the group just isn't working. You have pulled of the tank multiple times, are you more likly to say "Ok I must be doing something wrong." or "Ok he needs to get it together."

    How would you approch th situation if you did think the tank was screwing the pooch?

  2. #2
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    I am NOT an expert on this topic, but here is my take:

    * I am very surprised when I can pull aggro from a guardian - I personally believe that a good lvl 65 hunter should not be able to pull aggro from a good lvl 65 guardian unless he is using S:S - I am willing to be called crazy but that is my opinion

    * As a Hunter, if I do manage to pull aggro from a Guardian, then I immediately determine if I can handle finishing this the Mob off or if I need to get the Mob off me. If I decide to get the mob off me, then as a decent hunter I should be able to accomplish that without making the Guardian run around and do a lot of extra things

    * After I pull aggro the first time - and give it back - if I pull it again, then I believe its my own fault and I did not properly adjust my attack

    Now notice I kept using Guardian as an example. I realize other classes can play "Tank" but I think the circumstances change when that happens. It gets a lot harder for DPS'ers to engage in attacking without pulling aggro.

    Also I would say that if you have multiple DPS'ers, its actually EASIER to hold aggro as a tank. Most of the time I am running into problems when I am the only DPS role in the group.
    Last edited by EV4D; Mar 26 2010 at 10:01 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Depends on the situation. Basically, if you have a good handle on the mechanics of the game, you should have a good idea who (or what) is causing you problems. Example: When I played, I could judge a tank pretty quickly based on how quickly I could open up. With a good tank I could pretty much hit WOT right off the line and not have any problems, but there were some I ran with that I couldn't hit it even after a few minutes. In those cases, the tank was the problem. Where the problem comes in is when people don't have a good handle on the game mechanics, but think that they do.

    As for the table you stated, I'd say something more like this:

    Tank sets the bar for the damage dealers.
    DDs set the pace of the fight.
    Healer's potential output sets the hard time limit for the fight.

    So, if a tank sets a low bar, the DDs have to slow down, the fight takes longer, and if the healer runs out of juice, people start dying. If the tank sets a high bar and the DDs can't match them, the fight drags out forever and the same thing happens. If the healer runs out of steam (whether 'cause the fight was taking too long, people needed too much healing, their build is sub-par, etc.), then again people start dying. It's sort of a three-way balancing act, and everyone has to do their part.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    I would say that is fair. I'm not hating on DPSers, and in all honesty when I tank if somone pulls off me I will usualy go save them, cause stuff happens right? And also at my level I have the moves, the traits, and the ability to pretty much make sure that no DPSer or Healer will ever pull off me unless I run my power dry or get stunned or somthing.....

    But there are levels in the game where a tank may not yet have the skills he needs, for example, with a Warden, below lvl 35 or so, tanking is a nightmare if you have a DPSer in the group...

    At level 60-65 the only time I have to worry about the DPSer is if they are stupid enough to not wait for the tank to make the pull, but if the squishy takes it on himself to make the pull, then really he deserves what he gets.

  5. #5

    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    I find that most tanks hold aggro like a puppy in a basket.

    To wit...I had to sit one down in a PUG so that my Hands-of-Healing traited Captain could tank Talug and the Firefist in Fil Gashan.


    Most tanks are in serious need of a jock check.
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  6. #6

    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmie_smithers View Post
    The following equation was offered up:

    If the Healer dies, its the tank's fault
    If the Tank dies, it's the Healer's Fault
    If the DPS dies, it's their own fault.
    While this is a cute aphorism, it is generally not remotely true. If the tank dies, it could mean the healer fell asleep at the controls. I've had wipes that were that simple (and subsequently been accused of being a squishy tank). More often than not, though, if anyone dies it's their own fault. This assumes at least a slightly competent group. Standing in fire/poison clouds/shadow DoTs, letting nasty wounds, fears, and poison DoTs tick away without clearing them, are likely situations here.

    Then you've got situations where, say the DPS dies and it's the tank's fault. A mob with frontal AoE is not turned around away from the group. Or say the tank does turn it around, but a DPS wants to stay in front of it anyway, that's the DPS'ers fault.

    I know that's not what you were getting at when you brought up the quote, and that it's just supposed to be a clever aphorism, but such sayings need to have a bit more truth to 'em...

    As a person who mains a tank, I am inclined to agree with this, and 99% of the time I don't have a problem with DPSers pulling off me. But what is your view, as a DPS forum.

    If I am up-front tanking a mob, and you pull him off me, is your first reaction more likly to be "be nice if somone could tank." or "sorry guys that was my bad."

    Anyone can screw up once. Let's say the group just isn't working. You have pulled of the tank multiple times, are you more likly to say "Ok I must be doing something wrong." or "Ok he needs to get it together."

    How would you approch th situation if you did think the tank was screwing the pooch?
    If I pull off the tank, I give them the benefit of the doubt the first time. Maybe the Guard had a bad series of resists. Maybe the usually good Warden fat-fingered a gambit at a crucial time. If it happens over and over again, I'm likely to think it's the tank's fault. I play a tank main and a DPS as my "main alt" so I'm pretty well aware of how far I can push my damage without pullilng aggro. If I pull off a tank when aggro should be well established, beyond the point where the aforementioned resist/fat-finger/etc should matter, I'm inclined to think it's my fault, and hit BC and scaled back on my damage a tad, or switch from precision to endurance. If the same happens consistently, I'll sigh a little inside, and run in endurance knowing that things are going to take a bit longer.

    It's only been the case a very few times that I can remember, that the tank simply was causing serious issues for the group. A couple of those times while on my hunter, I just did what I could to alleviate the problem. CC adds that went for the healer, pewpew the ones I couldn't, etc. This has only happened to me a handful of times.

    When tanking, if a DPS pulls off of me in the start of an AoE pull, they can have the mob. It's going to die fast anyway. If they don't want the aggro, they can start slow and ramp up their DPS as aggro is locked down on the mobs. In a single target pull, if they pull it away from me at any time in the fight, they can have it, because they must have wanted it badly enough to go all out trying to get it from me.

    So, yeah. I guess that was my longwinded way of saying it's not as cut and dry as all that. When people start dying, if you want to play the blame game, it could be anyone's fault. Yes, if it's the most basic level of failure, the tank simply does not pick up adds headed for the healer, the DPS just goes balls-to-the-walls from the very start and pulls more than they can handle, or the healer hits the tank with one weak heal in a heavy AoE pull, it's as simple as that quote. That IME is very rare though.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Much like there are a ton of poorly played DPS toons, there are also a lot of poorly played tanks.

    I tend to the conservative side so when I hit a PUG I start in Endurance and see how things play out. More often than not, I am disappointed

    One of the things that most often disappoints me is the tank who will stop attacking whatever he/she is attacking because I pulled aggro on an elite or, god forbid, a *normal*. There's simply no reason for you to blow your skills because I've managed to pull aggro on a trash MOB. If I can't handle it, I will hit BN/BC and dump it back on to you. We (hunters) have that skill for a reason.

    Even worse is when I am CC'ing something and the tank runs off and chases it down while feared. I mean..seriously?

    But, again, there are poorly played characters on both sides of the fence in this situation.
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  8. #8
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    to be honest, everything is so situational that its hard to say you should always do this or always do that.


    bottom line is that some tanks rock, some DPSers rock, some tanks are mediocre, some DPSers are mediocre.... and you gotta know how to play to best accompany your fellow


    I've gotten to run strength stance with some guardians because they rock (w or w/o champ helping at times), but then at other times I have to run endurance... which sucks
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  9. #9
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    being both a tank and a DPS and a healer at times, I've seen the ballpark from all sides. And the first thing I have to say is that the people who tend to have the least understanding in those situations where things go bad are those who have the least experience with any role outside of their own.

    having tanked as a new, or low geared tank before, I have appreciation for the tanks job when I DPS, so I often 'get a feel' when I Pug on my DPS toons. Likewise, I tend to have to do the same when I heal, or even tank. The more you know about other classes, the easier it is to get a feel for how they are operating in any given PuG, and how to adjust what you are doing to compensate.

    It really is far more complex then that simple phrase, but unfortunately many people do like to try and simplify things to statements like 'if a healer dies it's the tanks fault". But you can't...those that really believe a statement as simple as that are often the first ones to shift blame when things go down. in essense, you coudl distill the IDEA down to that, but thats like saying care are simple, push teh gas and they drive. Or women are simple.....(guys are simple, pick your poison). Think you get the point.

    I've had situations where a key role makes a difference. I've been DPS'ing in bad groups, switched over to tank, and things smooth out. Same with healing, etc. Though the tank and healing position can be more pivotal, its any one of those 3 that can make or break the group. A well run PuG does well because the players all function together, work with each other, etc.

    So, in a nutshell as a DPS I don't agree with that statement, simply because I've been on all sides of that equaiton, and it aint that simple
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  10. #10
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    A few things for the tanks is to give the tanks aggro time.

    You can easily steal aggro if you dont let them do the job they are built for if your DPS all decide to go buck nasty in the first few seconds leaving your Tank wondering why he is even in the party.

    Another thing would be is the Tank Slotted for Tanking? Those trait Lines if people actually read them do actually help now and again. To many times do I come across a Tank in OP setup and then doesnt know the benefits of the other trait lines.

    Course I hear the tanks always say, "I shouldnt HAVE TO SLOT for DoTf to tank. I should be fine in OP line!". Well Im sorry to hear that you didnt notice the bonuses the traits give you.

    Wardens can tank just fine too. You just have to give them a little more time to get going as they are a Gambit run class to build up aggro. Not as quick to draw aggro but they can get it done if you dont screw up the aggro managment. GS is a great testing ground for a Warden or new Guardian. (Not particulary HARD MODE. Try Easy Mode sometime damn it!)

    All in all though its going on what everyone is already stating. Its alot of situational moments as well.

    Some tanks just suck at tanking because they are still stuck in what I refer to as Champ Mode. ( This is that mode where they run in and smack everything and think they can keep the aggro just by hitting it. ) Same goes with DPSers. Ive come across Champs who I can out tank in Endurance Stance in Sammath Guldor. Which scares me everytime it happens but thats aside the point.
    Last edited by Kannos1600; Mar 28 2010 at 04:19 PM.
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  11. #11
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by EV4D View Post
    I am NOT an expert on this topic, but here is my take:

    * I am very surprised when I can pull aggro from a guardian - I personally believe that a good lvl 65 hunter should not be able to pull aggro from a good lvl 65 guardian unless he is using S:S - I am willing to be called crazy but that is my opinion

    * As a Hunter, if I do manage to pull aggro from a Guardian, then I immediately determine if I can handle finishing this the Mob off or if I need to get the Mob off me. If I decide to get the mob off me, then as a decent hunter I should be able to accomplish that without making the Guardian run around and do a lot of extra things

    * After I pull aggro the first time - and give it back - if I pull it again, then I believe its my own fault and I did not properly adjust my attack

    Now notice I kept using Guardian as an example. I realize other classes can play "Tank" but I think the circumstances change when that happens. It gets a lot harder for DPS'ers to engage in attacking without pulling aggro.

    Also I would say that if you have multiple DPS'ers, its actually EASIER to hold aggro as a tank. Most of the time I am running into problems when I am the only DPS role in the group.
    I guess ya can call me crazy too then cuz I agreed. Honestly i have not meet a good guardian yet that i cant take aggro..I even pull aggro from a champ and this is on Endurance stance..

  12. #12
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Seeing as I don't play a hunter really at all, I can't exactly commet on going bttw right off the bat. As a RK, I simply don't have that option. I will say, however, that a tank's test comes when I launch that first EC or Smouldering Wrath. By that time, (I don't use EC without the buffs) the tank should have sufficient aggro, especially since I have a capped distracting flame legacy and I use it whenever it's up, along with traited calming verse. If I end up pulling aggro at that point, it's usually 1 of 2 things.

    1. I critted for some crazy amount with EC.

    2. The tank isn't ready for me to unleash yet.

    With the tanks I run with it's usually he first one, or I had the buffs up early. Either way, I always have Distracting Winds to fall back on, and a lesson learned. If DW doesn't work then I deserve to die

    With healing... If I have aggro in general I either should have it or something went wrong, or the DPS/CC screwed up OR the tank needs to learn how to generate more threat.


    Anyways, just 1 RK's 2c
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  13. #13
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Well i play all three of the classes listed so imo its not anyones fault if someone dies. Its situational at best

    If the guardian dies, its not the healers fault. It could be the guards fault, if every cd is not on cooldown when he dies then its his fault. Guardian cds are not long, only 5 minutes on pledge and their heal. Also they have a reset for those skills on a 15 minute cd, traited 7.5. So if a guardian ever dies, he can only blame the minstrel if 1. He had every mob on him meaning the minstrel was not getting hit and interupted from healing him. 2. He burned all his guardian cds not including his racials. 3. He used moral pots. With those three things factoring into his death, then he can blame the minstrel along with the support class such as lm, burg and captain since all three could contribute to him not dying by healing, cj or debuff on mobs.


    If the healer dies, its every single persons fault in the fellowship, I hope i dont need to explain myself on that one.

    If a dps dies, i usually blame the tank more than other plays since, Even in strength stance most tanks can hold agro against dpsers, im talking about guardians here. However if the dps that pulls is a hunter then as a healer i dont care. A hunter can tank any 3 man and 6 man boss without a problem. The hunter has to be reasonably geared obviously but its not a big deal. I have never seen an rk pull ever.. and champs well their tanks so not a big deal. When im on my guard i prefer to have all the agro but if we're in sg and the hunter is in precision or something i tell them to go into strength. There is not alot of sense in wasting time if you have a hunter in precision or endurance. They might as well be in strength and if they pull as a healer and tank i dont care.

  14. #14
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorangie174 View Post
    I guess ya can call me crazy too then cuz I agreed. Honestly i have not meet a good guardian yet that i cant take aggro..I even pull aggro from a champ and this is on Endurance stance..
    Either everyone you play with on your server is re****ed or they have no idea how to hold aggro when a Hunter is in Endurance Stance.

    I take the re****ed statment back under the notion the players you play with probably dont group play all to much and might not have any idea *** a Taunt is or something.
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  15. #15

    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by esdumby View Post
    When im on my guard i prefer to have all the agro but if we're in sg and the hunter is in precision or something i tell them to go into strength. There is not alot of sense in wasting time if you have a hunter in precision or endurance. They might as well be in strength and if they pull as a healer and tank i dont care.
    Wow, really? It's generally a bad idea to tell folks how to play their toons. Many of us are specced to primarily be in Precision.
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Good thread. I was surprised that nobody jumped on me for making this statement:

    "I personally believe that a good lvl 65 hunter should not be able to pull aggro from a good lvl 65 guardian unless he is using S:S - I am willing to be called crazy but that is my opinion"

    Maybe I wasn't crazy?
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  17. #17
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    The main difference is that, even if the tank is subpar, it's always up to the DPS classes to adjust accordingly. For better or for worse, a tank has no way to adjust to DPS'ers. So the argument of whether the tank is good or bad is, if the DPS class is doing their job, effectively moot.
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  18. #18

    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by EV4D View Post
    Good thread. I was surprised that nobody jumped on me for making this statement:

    "I personally believe that a good lvl 65 hunter should not be able to pull aggro from a good lvl 65 guardian unless he is using S:S - I am willing to be called crazy but that is my opinion"

    Maybe I wasn't crazy?
    In the current round of on level content there are so many threat wipes and threat debuffs that the tank/dps relationship is much more interactive and requires everyone to be actively engaged in managing it all.
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  19. #19
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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aidus View Post
    In the current round of on level content there are so many threat wipes and threat debuffs that the tank/dps relationship is much more interactive and requires everyone to be actively engaged in managing it all.
    ^

    Threat wipes keep changin' up my stance-dance. I'm like John Travolta. /stays_alive

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    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by kerryak View Post
    ^

    Threat wipes keep changin' up my stance-dance. I'm like John Travolta. /stays_alive

    Somebody has already had too many cups of coffee this morning....


    Ok thanks for the feedback. Sounds like Turbine is messing with the purity of Guardians, just like they did Hunters. We used to be THE DPS class - now we are one of a few. Guardians used to be the TANK class - now it sounds like their ability to tank has been dilluted.

    The fun thing about this development is that it makes my life as a Hunter more interesting. Trying to maximize damage and not pull aggro, fun stuff!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/07206000000040366/signature.png]Evad[/charsig]
    [color=silver][i]"Intelligence is my bow, cunning are my arrows, and wisdom is my armor"[/i][/color]
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  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,855

    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by EV4D View Post
    Somebody has already had too many cups of coffee this morning....


    Ok thanks for the feedback. Sounds like Turbine is messing with the purity of Guardians, just like they did Hunters. We used to be THE DPS class - now we are one of a few. Guardians used to be the TANK class - now it sounds like their ability to tank has been dilluted.

    The fun thing about this development is that it makes my life as a Hunter more interesting. Trying to maximize damage and not pull aggro, fun stuff!


    Actually, it's quite the opposite. The GRD is *more* necessary because they have the best abilities to grab the agro BACK via *perceived* threat moves. Wardens and Champs have some transfer abilities that can help, too.

    The thing hunters have to be mindful of, is that if the boss does one of these, and you're still in S:S, and you then Merciful Shot it's face and crit... oy.

    The good news is most of these moves are either predictable and/or scripted w/ some comment of graphic though, so if you're paying attention (which we are if we care enough to read this stuff on teh intrawebs.) you can just drop back to S:E for a bit and make it easier.


    Edit: and yeah, I'm on my 6th cup and 3rd cigar. I work classy.
    [COLOR=CYAN][SIZE=3]Hat Beerbane, Former .xls Wizard and Hunter Blogger[/SIZE]
    [/color]

  22. #22

    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by kerryak View Post
    Actually, it's quite the opposite. The GRD is *more* necessary because they have the best abilities to grab the agro BACK via *perceived* threat moves. Wardens and Champs have some transfer abilities that can help, too.

    The thing hunters have to be mindful of, is that if the boss does one of these, and you're still in S:S, and you then Merciful Shot it's face and crit... oy.

    The good news is most of these moves are either predictable and/or scripted w/ some comment of graphic though, so if you're paying attention (which we are if we care enough to read this stuff on teh intrawebs.) you can just drop back to S:E for a bit and make it easier.


    Edit: and yeah, I'm on my 6th cup and 3rd cigar. I work classy.
    LOL last night on the twins in BG I was focus burn on Morgaraf in endurance and ended up grabbing aggro. The worst part is both tanks and the champ were in the other group so I got no aggro relief other than Beneath Care (I still LOVE that skill name, and like being almost invisable), then spamming traited QS. I was torn on what to do, it is a DPS race and I felt I should contribute.

    The worse part is that same run we had a bad run of Corruption Removal misses on Cargaraf, so our Range tank died. Stance-Dance S:S and PS>SB>PS I got aggro and we stabilized only to wipe with Morg at 6k and Carg at like 4....

    BLEH last night was a BAD night in BG for me.

    Ohhh yeah and on topic. Warden's could use a percieved theat move or Threat copy since there snap aggro doesn't last very long.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000bd0ff/signature.png]Aidus[/charsig]

    "Live and Let Die"

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
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    1,801

    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Any quality 65 hunter _can_ pull aggro off any tank. It might take a little while, but any strong hunter can (especially burning in S:S, but it is even true running S:P). If you run in a group that likes burning things down as fast as possible, max dps, handle the hiccups, then you'll see this a lot. Whether the hunter _should_, well that depends on the group's standards and desires. It comes down to speed versus control...and a good hunter should _also_ be able to avoid getting aggro any time she (he) wants, at the cost of somewhat slower dps.

    Any quality 65 guard who plays well _can_ get aggro back off that hunter (or Champ, or RK, we have RKs who pull aggro too). Might take a few secs depending on the cooldown of some skills, but any good guard can; there are plenty of ways to do it so that the option should never be more than a few seconds away. Any guard who doesn't pull aggro back when she (he) can isn't doing their job.

    Any mini, healing RK, or cappy who "lets the dps'er die" is a jerk. The dps'er may need to learn more about the group's way of doing things, but remember that her (or his) job is to dps for you. Teach them, don't trash them. Your job is to heal first, so do it. In my experience, half the time when a mini claims she 'let the dps'er die', she was really distracted, watching YouTube while healing, kind of auto-moded on the tank, and didn't notice until too late that the aggro switched. So look dumb, or claim you were giving the dps'er some medicine...hmm....

    Just my opinion.
    Last edited by Angadan; Mar 29 2010 at 03:26 PM.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    In the van... with candy.
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    4,036

    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    As someone that plays both a Hunter and a Guard, I will say that while I am on my guard, I don't tank normals. Its just not worth my time and effort. On my guard, it is my job to shape the fight, so yeah, I try to stay a couple steps ahead of the DPSers and have faith in my healers that they can keep up with the pace that is set.

    There is a natural tension between Tank and DPS. This is to ensure that the game isn't easymode and the tank can just spam AoE taunts and never worry about losing agro. I do think it could be a bit better for guards, but by and large as long as the DPS eases into their routine, you will only get occasional peel and usually just something trivial.

    When I am DPSing, I go after soft targets first, swarms and normals, to get Captain and Champ defeat conditional skills rolling. This also allows the Tank some time to get a good agro lead on the tougher mobs, which allows the DPSers to hit them very hard and very fast. I very much like it when DPS is intelligently applied, but far too often I see DPSers drowning in their own whargarble and impeded by their own ego.

    Personally, I think that Tanks in LOTRO require too much support. A Warden generally needs a loremaster or multiple blue conjuctions to really tank. They also need a bit more initial alone time just to initiate their first gambit(s). Guards don't quite have the same threat output and lack the threat leaches but are inherently more sturdy, but they have two built in weaknesses. Firstly, they need agro to hold agro. That first few seconds of a fight is more crucial to guardians because the heavier threat skills and only threat leach is on the reactive line. In total, it is never really a good* idea to jump the gun too much with your tanks. I personally ask for 3-5 seconds lead time. After you see the second set of red threat squigles, go crazy, but do not hit something before I get a chance to touch it and do not create situations where I have to chase you. Its a courtesy thing that I extend while on my Hunter as well, if I pull something I don't want, I bring it back to the tank. I also tend to sit in "the pocket" so I don't have to go far.

    A lot of little things easily add up to smoother runs. I find that the smoothest runs happen when everyone operates within their role and supports each other. When I am tanking, I get support from DPS by things going away. I support DPS, by taking the hits but also positioning fights for max AoE damage and having most, if not all mobs facing away from the DPS so they don't have to deal with block and parry events. I support my healers by building for mitigation and incoming healing, so they don't have to waste resources on chain healing. I would much rather them have the chance to get and keep their buffs up in addition to healing as it is more engaging and less stressful for them.

    A group activity is really a series of compromises which ceases to be enjoyable for all when somebody starts to think that its all about them.

    1) The group must allow for the tank/offtank to grab initial agro.
    1-A) The Tank and Offtank must build threat quickly and competently so that DPS is not picking their bums.
    2) The Support classes (Minstrel, LM, Captain, Burg, Healing RK) must be willing to support the DPS and the Tank/Offtank.
    2-A) The Tank/Offtank, must not squander the resources of the support classes.
    3) The DPS must be able to DPS with little or no support.
    3-A) The support classes must be willing to support the DPS but not to the detriment of the run.
    4) When things get rough, play to your strengths and facilitate the strengths of others.
    4-A) Just assume that it is going to be rough.
    Last edited by SaintBass; Mar 29 2010 at 05:51 PM.
    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Seattle
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    1,008

    Re: Tank, Healer, DPS relations: What you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    As someone that plays both a Hunter and a Guard, I will say that while I am on my guard, I don't tank normals. Its just not worth my time and effort. On my guard, it is my job to shape the fight, so yeah, I try to stay a couple steps ahead of the DPSers and have faith in my healers that they can keep up with the pace that is set.

    There is a natural tension between Tank and DPS. This is to ensure that the game isn't easymode and the tank can just spam AoE taunts and never worry about losing agro. I do think it could be a bit better for guards, but by and large as long as the DPS eases into their routine, you will only get occasional peel and usually just something trivial.

    When I am DPSing, I go after soft targets first, swarms and normals, to get Captain and Champ defeat conditional skills rolling. This also allows the Tank some time to get a good agro lead on the tougher mobs, which allows the DPSers to hit them very hard and very fast. I very much like it when DPS is intelligently applied, but far too often I see DPSers drowning in their own whargarble and impeded by their own ego.

    Personally, I think that Tanks in LOTRO require too much support. A Warden generally needs a loremaster or multiple blue conjuctions to really tank. They also need a bit more initial alone time just to initiate their first gambit(s). Guards don't quite have the same threat output and lack the threat leaches but are inherently more sturdy, but they have two built in weaknesses. Firstly, they need agro to hold agro. That first few seconds of a fight is more crucial to guardians because the heavier threat skills and only threat leach is on the reactive line. In total, it is never really a good* idea to jump the gun too much with your tanks. I personally ask for 3-5 seconds lead time. After you see the second set of red threat squigles, go crazy, but do not hit something before I get a chance to touch it and do not create situations where I have to chase you. Its a courtesy thing that I extend while on my Hunter as well, if I pull something I don't want, I bring it back to the tank. I also tend to sit in "the pocket" so I don't have to go far.

    A lot of little things easily add up to smoother runs. I find that the smoothest runs happen when everyone operates within their role and supports each other. When I am tanking, I get support from DPS by things going away. I support DPS, by taking the hits but also positioning fights for max AoE damage and having most, if not all mobs facing away from the DPS so they don't have to deal with block and parry events. I support my healers by building for mitigation and incoming healing, so they don't have to waste resources on chain healing. I would much rather them have the chance to get and keep their buffs up in addition to healing as it is more engaging and less stressful for them.

    A group activity is really a series of compromises which ceases to be enjoyable for all when somebody starts to think that its all about them.

    1) The group must allow for the tank/offtank to grab initial agro.
    1-A) The Tank and Offtank must build threat quickly and competently so that DPS is not picking their bums.
    2) The Support classes (Minstrel, LM, Captain, Burg, Healing RK) must be willing to support the DPS and the Tank/Offtank.
    2-A) The Tank/Offtank, must not squander the resources of the support classes.
    3) The DPS must be able to DPS with little or no support.
    3-A) The support classes must be willing to support the DPS but not to the detriment of the run.
    4) When things get rough, play to your strengths and facilitate the strengths of others.
    4-A) Just assume that it is going to be rough.


    Well said and I definately agree that DPS'ers don't wait long enough before engaging in a battle. I don't know why its so hard to wait 3-5 seconds.

    I also agree that DPS'ers must be able to play with NO support. I completely subcribe to this view and don't expect heals or any other support while engaged in a group activity.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/07206000000040366/signature.png]Evad[/charsig]
    [color=silver][i]"Intelligence is my bow, cunning are my arrows, and wisdom is my armor"[/i][/color]
    [color=lightgreen][b]If you experience a lag spike in real life, would you notice?[/b][/color]

 

 
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