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  1. #1

    Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    In the current level cap raid, is it really hard or is it just the application of random bits of bad luck?

    It seems to me that the only thing that makes the LT hard is who gets what eye and when. So if that is the case finishing the raid is not hard, but rather requires some measure of luck.

    Compared to all the other raids, this seems way out of whack. In all the other raids we have some measure of control, it might have been difficult to exercise that control but it was there. A Corruption Removal here, keeping debuffs up there, DPS race now, poison cure, fear pot, poison pot, whatever we had mechanics to counter act the situation and if deployed properly and consistently we could control the outcome of the encounter.

    Unless there is a mechanic for controlling who gets the eyes that I have not seen, heard, or read about this raid is another LOTRO Lottery!

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  2. #2
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    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    you make your own luck... put another way there are a small number of people who are clearing the raid, their level of execution is so high and they have enough time they overcome random elements.

    all content is like that really... as random rolls are always happening, just the magnitude and impact varies.

    for the top raiders they probably find BG easy. mileage will vary.

    when i say that BG is hard, I am more thinking in general terms of how few groups are farming it and how often wipes occur.
    you can only ask tiger woods how easy/hard getting par is for him, not for you personally... for that you have to try yourself.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    Quote Originally Posted by wyldcyde View Post
    all content is like that really... as random rolls are always happening, just the magnitude and impact varies.
    The consequences of "luck" are more significant in BG. In DN and the Rift, and even the Watcher, a series of bad luck events could be overcome. In BG, not so much. Yes, the better the raiders, the more likely it is they can roll with the randomness and prevail, but I suspect even they are wiping more than before due to the luck factor.

  4. #4
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    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    Quote Originally Posted by jayssen View Post
    The consequences of "luck" are more significant in BG.
    yeah. it kinda makes me laugh when i think of how we used to worry when tank got strangled in watcher encounter... 'eyes' in LT fight make that look like running mail in the shire lol.

    someone in our kin described it well... the "actions per second" requirement has been dialled up with BG... which for the most part I actually like, you need to ace encounters, not just scrape through.

    The rub is that out of 6 encounter options the dial is too high imo... the majority of regular raiders should be beating 1&2 HM on first or second attempt... which is where it was getting to pre patch.
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  5. #5

    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    Quote Originally Posted by wyldcyde View Post
    yeah. it kinda makes me laugh when i think of how we used to worry when tank got strangled in watcher encounter... 'eyes' in LT fight make that look like running mail in the shire lol.

    someone in our kin described it well... the "actions per second" requirement has been dialled up with BG... which for the most part I actually like, you need to ace encounters, not just scrape through.

    The rub is that out of 6 encounter options the dial is too high imo... the majority of regular raiders should be beating 1&2 HM on first or second attempt... which is where it was getting to pre patch.
    My point was not that there is not randomness in the other encounters, but that the raiders had some sort of control or relaible response to that randomness ( ie dangled kill the relatively low morale tenticle). In BG there is NOTHING we can do, other than hope you do get both eyes, and if someone does hope that person doesn't trot right up to the LT or hang in a cloud of whatever.

    I do agree that the actions per second have been stepped up and frankly I don't mind that, I don't even mind the lack of control or responses to this final fight so much. I do feel however that there is no progression to this level of encounter. The 6 man is a cake walk HM and killing everything we can 5 man it with a Capt healing.

    Anyway, just seems to me that there is very little the raiders can do to mitigate or control events in this encounter as opposed to the other encounters.
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  6. #6

    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    Well, I am not a raid leader by any stretch of the imagination... but I do raid a lot and have done the Lt fight a lot.

    I'd say there is a lot that's left to luck in that fight. For example, in the first phase, if the beast chases our best DPSers, we may have more patches. But if he chases me a few times, we get less patches because my raid DPS stinks . But on the flip side, a few times after separation, when healing for us is most intense, I get chased... effectively cutting the healing in half those times. Then there are the other random eyes.

    Of course, the main problem our raid faces is that a lot of the people who were there when we first started are gone/burnt out on the raid already. A lot went back to PvP. So we are talking newer people--some of whom are new to raiding all together. At least they have heart though and want to learn. But now we have a learning curve until they get used to the fight too. It didn't' help that they kind of changed the raid in the middle of all that too (adding another random element). The new random eye set us back even more. I just hope by the time we start to get into a groove to try HM again that they don't change things (make them even more random) another time.
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  7. #7

    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jilla View Post
    Well, I am not a raid leader by any stretch of the imagination... but I do raid a lot and have done the Lt fight a lot.

    I'd say there is a lot that's left to luck in that fight. For example, in the first phase, if the beast chases our best DPSers, we may have more patches. But if he chases me a few times, we get less patches because my raid DPS stinks . But on the flip side, a few times after separation, when healing for us is most intense, I get chased... effectively cutting the healing in half those times. Then there are the other random eyes.

    Of course, the main problem our raid faces is that a lot of the people who were there when we first started are gone/burnt out on the raid already. A lot went back to PvP. So we are talking newer people--some of whom are new to raiding all together. At least they have heart though and want to learn. But now we have a learning curve until they get used to the fight too. It didn't' help that they kind of changed the raid in the middle of all that too (adding another random element). The new random eye set us back even more. I just hope by the time we start to get into a groove to try HM again that they don't change things (make them even more random) another time.
    ^ this too!

    I don't think we have had the same raid for 6-8 weeks. Talk about a pain in the behind!
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  8. #8
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    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jilla View Post

    Of course, the main problem our raid faces is that a lot of the people who were there when we first started are gone/burnt out on the raid already. A lot went back to PvP. So we are talking newer people--some of whom are new to raiding all together. At least they have heart though and want to learn. But now we have a learning curve until they get used to the fight too. It didn't' help that they kind of changed the raid in the middle of all that too (adding another random element). The new random eye set us back even more. I just hope by the time we start to get into a groove to try HM again that they don't change things (make them even more random) another time.

    We have little bits of this in our raids. People are really burnt out on the game some of which is from this raid.

  9. #9
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    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aidus View Post
    In the current level cap raid, is it really hard or is it just the application of random bits of bad luck?

    It seems to me that the only thing that makes the LT hard is who gets what eye and when. So if that is the case finishing the raid is not hard, but rather requires some measure of luck.

    Compared to all the other raids, this seems way out of whack. In all the other raids we have some measure of control, it might have been difficult to exercise that control but it was there. A Corruption Removal here, keeping debuffs up there, DPS race now, poison cure, fear pot, poison pot, whatever we had mechanics to counter act the situation and if deployed properly and consistently we could control the outcome of the encounter.

    Unless there is a mechanic for controlling who gets the eyes that I have not seen, heard, or read about this raid is another LOTRO Lottery!

    You can make the luck argument for the Lt. (to a point) but the rest of the instance is almost all skill related.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aidus View Post
    Anyway, just seems to me that there is very little the raiders can do to mitigate or control events in this encounter as opposed to the other encounters.
    i agree the magnitude of impact of luck/random elements in BG is too much and my primary gripe with this raid.

    even once you have strats nailed etc, wipes can too easily happen in durchest, on trash and in LT... that is not fun when the clock is ticking.

    the very very short list of groups that are overcoming the odds is testament to how overcooked this raid is. I dont want to roll the dice for pve raids... if we (as in more than 2 kins per server) cant reach a point bosses are killed first attempt unless obvious mistakes are made then the encounter needs work imo.

    the angst is due to the fact this is the only level cap challenging content so one would hope it has suitable appeal to a variety of raiders.
    Last edited by wyldcyde; Mar 24 2010 at 04:21 PM.
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  11. #11

    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    Quote Originally Posted by KainXI View Post
    You can make the luck argument for the Lt. (to a point) but the rest of the instance is almost all skill related.

    I agree.

    The raid group I run in we get a several shots at the LT per week, I think this maybe the week that we get him down. Durchest HM is no problem, the Twins we missed HM, mainly because I left one of the twins at 15K or so, I should have brought her down further, the LT fight is the one that bugs me for some reason.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    well everything is a combination of luck and skill thats plainly obvious, why anyone would debate it is beyond me.

    all that is at issue is to what degree luck impacts people... and obviously mileage varies from group to group.

    perhaps there is a group out there that can clear all of BG without a single wipe.

    but is it realistic for everyone else to assume that will soon be the norm for them, lol of course not.

    the lower your skill the more luck will impact the resultant outcome, ie wipe or success.

    clearly the skill requirement for this raid is too high overall... i have np with LT HM being the hardest encounter to date, but the rest of the raid should be very doable by groups that could previously clear DN.
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  13. #13
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    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    Quote Originally Posted by wyldcyde View Post
    clearly the skill requirement for this raid is too high overall... i have np with LT HM being the hardest encounter to date, but the rest of the raid should be very doable by groups that could previously clear DN.
    For me, this quote is the be all and end all of the argument.

  14. #14
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    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    Quote Originally Posted by wyldcyde View Post
    well everything is a combination of luck and skill thats plainly obvious, why anyone would debate it is beyond me.
    For me, it isn't luck per se, it's the impact of 'bad luck'.

    The new 'terror' move, in which a player or players get feared and run about uncontrollably is a raid killer device, pure and simple. Twice on Sunday during the LT, one player got feared and ran straight to someone with a purple eye .. guaranteed wipe followed.

    Twice, in a row, after great initial phases where luck was on our side with respect to where the beast dropped purple clouds, a single roll of the RNG caused a totally unmitigatable wipe, no amount of skill can prevent the inevitable death or deaths that ensue when that happens.

    THIS is where the 'luck' element is completely intolerable. Yes, 'bad' luck will see badly positioned purple clouds, thus making kiting the beast more difficult and requiring quick thinking and re-grouping, but this unavoidable headless-chicken mode is just the latest in many cheesey tactics the devs. have dreamt up, following on from their totally destroying CC as a viable tactic in raids since SoA.

  15. #15
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    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    Quote Originally Posted by wyldcyde View Post
    clearly the skill requirement for this raid is too high overall... i have np with LT HM being the hardest encounter to date, but the rest of the raid should be very doable by groups that could previously clear DN.
    Agreed. The problem that I see with comparing DN at 60 to BG at 65 is, so much has changed with SoM.

    -Faster Combat 3.0 means all mobs hit more often (witness big increases in repair bills at launch)
    -Elite+ mobs crit a LOT more often
    -Tanks got more morale and crit defense, but nobody else did, and it's not like there aren't any unavoidable AOEs/DoTs/Distributed/auras/misc raid-wide attacks (witness difficulties with Watcher despite being over-level because Crushing Devastation crits often)
    -Tac resists were down too low allegedly, and everybody got used to it, now that it's "fixed" skills are more prone to resists
    -Enemy damage buffs affect DoT damage - look at the bottom half of the Flagit fight now, two ticks is enough to kill anyone

    And BG-specific mechanics:

    -Player deaths are highly penalized in a way that's never been seen before; just one death (of any class) in a boss fight has the potential to spiral into a wipe. So there is a lot less margin for error (which heavily favors hardcore/elite groups)
    -CJ immunity on pretty much everything means no opportunity for a 5 second breather -- allegedly to prevent script-breaking, but do the Armours really have scripts?
    -Force-Fear is un-preventable/un-counterable, selects target totally at random. Annoying in SG; annoying with Guldur Lights; x10 when combined with puddles/FB eye in LT.

    I guess what I'm saying is, sweeping changes were made to the game as a whole, so even if they set out with the intention of making BG easy mode equivalent to DN difficulty, there wasn't time to really test/balance/tweak it considering all of that. We have been beta testing it all this time.
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  16. #16
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    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    Quote Originally Posted by rawlingsst7 View Post
    We have been beta testing it all this time.
    it certainly feels that way. the proof will be in the upcoming changes.
    vol3bk1 changes put a dampener on my hopes.
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  17. #17
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    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    Tried the new changes in the raid with Hengar watching one night shortly before the Volume III release. Might have been too early for him to make any changes at the time, but hopefully when they actually got to witness the mechanics in the fight they may reconsider how random the encounter is.

    If anything, getting rid of the fear would help the fight a lot. Before, when it was just the tank getting feared, we were expecting it. Dude doesn't even call out who he is fearing... And the FellBeast just runs over and chomps said person with no regard. Having it be a detaunt would also be nice.


  18. #18
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    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    true the fear adds a significant layer of unpredictability.
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  19. #19

    Re: Hard or Just random bits of luck?

    After last weeks attempts, I thought a lot about how I feel about this raid. I have been reading about all the different opinions and fixes, and I have to say I could stomach the randomness and chaos that is the LT fight if it weren't for the trash respawns. I have to agree this "feature" makes me want to pull my hair out especially after playing Zombie Land on my hunters and practicing my "Cardio" and "Triple-taps" and WAY TO MANY Zombies that basically could care less what you do to them.

    I know I am preachin' to the choir! Just wanted to vent some.
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