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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    1,816

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by seyahat View Post
    I'll go back to a point that I made early in this thread, namely that the premise of the OP is likely incorrect.

    By what standard are captains low in numbers? Are the lower in number to other classes? Well, most certainly lower in number compared to most other classes: classic tanks, healers, and dps are the basic structure of the genre, and it is no surprise that we are outnumbered by hunters, guardians, or minstrels. *Most* players clearly prefer dps roles which helps to account for the large number of hunters and champs (and, increasingly, dps-oriented RKs). Captains, LMs, and Burgs make the game easier and groups more efficient, but in the end, it is only the nuanced mechanics of end game that might make us "necessary." In contrast, most group stuff requires at least one main healer and at least one tank, plus as much dps as the group can muster.

    Captains are, in the end, a utility class and, like the other utility classes, we are fewer in number. Are we fewer than other utility classes? Probably depends on the server and I will be willing to grant that my server may have an unusual number of cappies. But, regardless of server, we couldn't possibly be massively outnumbered by burgs or LMs. *All* of the utility classes are at the bottom of the rolls... which is not an indication that any of them are broken. All of these classes are slightly slower to level and a little less friendly to casual gamers (though I think comments about how "complicated" they are may be overstating the difficulty of playing a video game). It isn't surprising - or an indication of game flaw - that they are fewer in number.

    One thing we have in common with other utility groups is that we are often doing amazing things, without anybody realizing: I prevented two wipes last night with bubbles, but the only thing folks realized is that we almost died, and then we didn't. Burgs, LMs, and Captains make a lot of content recognizably easier, without making it obvious *why* it was easier.

    Another measure of captains being low in number is that captains are in demand. Although I am in a non-raiding kin, I can generally join with raiders when I want to. If I played a hunter I could not. I have noticed that raiding kin typically need captains (along with burgs and assorted others), when they recruit. Why is this? Because, while we are not as friendly for new players as some classes, we are absolutely useful in end game content. To put it delicately, this, my dear friends, is *not* what I would call a cause for concern.

    So, is the class perfect? Of course not. But the idea that it is "broken" is, well, a bit silly.
    Very well put sir. Pretty much sums it up for me too.

    Brandywine seems lacking of cappies versus your server for sure. I am always seeing in Moria chat for cappies being needed. Most times I announce my presence and I have a group withing 3 seconds, or if there is a group spamming I am automatically invited.

    I love that, I know why it is and i hope it doesn't change. I started a burg alt to have that same thing happen for me on that toon, my hunter alt I experimented with though will rot away, I may level him to max eventually, but he wont be decked out.

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    1,651

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by seyahat View Post
    I'll go back to a point that I made early in this thread, namely that the premise of the OP is likely incorrect.

    By what standard are captains low in numbers? Are the lower in number to other classes? Well, most certainly lower in number compared to most other classes: classic tanks, healers, and dps are the basic structure of the genre, and it is no surprise that we are outnumbered by hunters, guardians, or minstrels. *Most* players clearly prefer dps roles which helps to account for the large number of hunters and champs (and, increasingly, dps-oriented RKs). Captains, LMs, and Burgs make the game easier and groups more efficient, but in the end, it is only the nuanced mechanics of end game that might make us "necessary." In contrast, most group stuff requires at least one main healer and at least one tank, plus as much dps as the group can muster.
    ....
    Since you ask by what standards we measure, my standard is how difficult it is to find a class for a raid. I would say that the game is lacking raid ready captains at the moment. My kin, on Brandywine, has been struggling to get a set of reliable players together to take on BG, and getting a second captain has been the hardest spot to fill.

    It feels about the same as SoA about the time the Rift was introduced, where seeing another end-game captain running around was a novelty. It seems like captains came out of the woodwork for Moria, but now with SoM, the population seems to be sparse again. Obviously it may be or have been different on other server, but that has been my experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by seyahat View Post
    One thing we have in common with other utility groups is that we are often doing amazing things, without anybody realizing: I prevented two wipes last night with bubbles, but the only thing folks realized is that we almost died, and then we didn't. Burgs, LMs, and Captains make a lot of content recognizably easier, without making it obvious *why* it was easier.
    I've often said that the players who appreciate Captains the most are the Minstrels. Minstrels are the ones most in tune with how close a group is to the edge.

    Quote Originally Posted by seyahat View Post
    So, is the class perfect? Of course not. But the idea that it is "broken" is, well, a bit silly.
    I agree. I have been very vocal in other threads about flaws and shortcomings in the class, but that is only because I am so attached to it.
    Last edited by SGWB; Apr 09 2010 at 06:23 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000003071/01008/signature.png]Kalbarad[/charsig]

  3. #103

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Wow, this is the Captains' 'whoah is me' thread.

    I've played a captain since beta and think they are just fine.

    Every class has its leveling issues at some point along the way. The captain's style of leveling is not necessarily slower, depending on how you play and what targets you choose.

    True, the captain may not have the 'highest' 'largest' or 'greatest' of something, but we have a diversity of skills that make us one of the most versatile classes in the game. Versatility is not something a min-maxer can appreciate perhaps, as its not a 'stat', but it is definitely something that is part of game play. That and the Captain's skills must be used to their full effect. If you play a Captain like a Guardian, it may seem less capable at something. If you use the full range of captain skills at your disposal you do just fine.

    Besides, what melee class in MMO history has ever received an archer pet? That is the coolest thing ever.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000017642/01003/signature.png]Beaumaris[/charsig]

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    16

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Been a Capt sence SOA and always will be a Capt....Thoe the problem started too happen when the devs went from Capt support tank/dps and the Healers gaurdians too a strictly a support healer with very little dps now.

    The devs need too revert this back too what we and are a true support class with balance in tanking,healing and back too the dps we all had in SOA.

    Capt are the special forces of this game a very very elite class too play due too the complexity of the class...If you think you know it all about the Capt then guess what you dont there is always somthing new too learn and that is why I personally love this class.

    Will now im getting off my soup box...


    AcesHigh
    Eddiesevensons
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/02204000000078d96/signature.png]Eddiesevensons[/charsig]

  5. #105

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    My eyes are bleeding reading some of these posts, although soup box makes me giggle a lot as well. *sigh*

    I run into tons of captains* on Landroval as well, and lm/wardens tend to be the currently leveled lowbie alts. Some of them do zerg into battle, try to tank a boss, and get their herald aggroing multiple groups however, so more captains isn't exactly good (but they all managed to get to 60/65, so leveling can't be that bad!).

    (Also, yes, roleplaying Runekeepers for sure spend all their time scribbling on their rock-buddy, and shooting flames & lightning at everyone in the Prancing Pony. Yep, yep.)

    *Way more than expected, since they're noisy and the heralds irritate me, which would be my explanation as to any low numbers.
    Last edited by rhegan; Apr 19 2010 at 08:15 AM.

  6. #106

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by SapienChavez View Post
    i see a few reasons:


    ...


    you need to be (more of) a leader to play this class. you HAVE to talk to your group.


    ....
    Can you elaborate on this since I'm not seeing it. What is it exactly that a captain has to communicate to the group? Don't get me wrong, I know that many captains like to lead, but you seem to be suggesting it is often required and most so than other classes. I guess I'm failing to see why a captain would be unable to simply use his skills without talking more than other classes would need to.

  7. #107

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palpolo View Post
    Can you elaborate on this since I'm not seeing it. What is it exactly that a captain has to communicate to the group? Don't get me wrong, I know that many captains like to lead, but you seem to be suggesting it is often required and most so than other classes. I guess I'm failing to see why a captain would be unable to simply use his skills without talking more than other classes would need to.
    I didn't quite get that one either. Just because you are a captain, doesn't mean you are automatically the leader of the group. I rarely lead, unless I organize it.

    A captain just needs to be able to let folks know that you are using Last Stand/In Harms Way so healers know to *not* to heal you and take advantage of the lack of interrupts to heal others, communicate the timing of using Oathbreakers Shame, or let folks know you *will* remove that fear. I also let the tank know if I'm pre-healing the puller so they know that multiples will be running to me. Otherwise, I'm pretty quiet most of the time...that, or I make bad jokes.
    [CENTER]

    [/CENTER]

  8. Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lupini View Post
    I didn't quite get that one either. Just because you are a captain, doesn't mean you are automatically the leader of the group. I rarely lead, unless I organize it.

    A captain just needs to be able to let folks know that you are using Last Stand/In Harms Way so healers know to *not* to heal you and take advantage of the lack of interrupts to heal others, communicate the timing of using Oathbreakers Shame, or let folks know you *will* remove that fear. I also let the tank know if I'm pre-healing the puller so they know that multiples will be running to me. Otherwise, I'm pretty quiet most of the time...that, or I make bad jokes.

    All good: when you bubble, when you last stand, when you oathbreaker, perhaps when you are grabbing aggro off the minstrel... but, Lupini, that *is* a lot of verbal communication for anybody besides the raid leader and, from my standpoint, more than any other class is expected to do. Moreover, I find the relatively slower nature of captain is conducive to calling out DoTs on various players, telling folks to get out of hotspots, etc. This isn't necessarily a captains job, but we are one of the few classes that is regularly watching the rest of the raid's status.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a00000033326e/01008/signature.png]doronor[/charsig]

  9. #109
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    166

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    I suspect each server has a finite amount of awesome available, and captains use up a disproportionate amount of it, so our population numbers have to remain small.

    This might explain the reverse phenomena for hunters, who dominate at low levels and fall steadily behind the Hp/dps curve as the level increases. They are everywhere, but they are (rightly) not all that happy about the evolution of their role over the course of a career.

    Somebody mentioned raid perspective. Raid perspective is you need 1-2 tanks (2.5 choices for classes), 2-4 healers (2 choices fore classes), 1-2 CC (two choices), 4ish DPS (3 choices for classes, and 1-2 captains... Accept no substitute .
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/06205000000002180/signature.png]Bleys[/charsig]

    At your own pace: Do. It. Now.

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    917

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    I leveled my Cappy in a duo with a hunter. Makes a good combo. End game Cappys are great fun and very useful.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/042080000000bc630/01002/signature.png]Cyrowen[/charsig]

    Asreth (hunter/Elf) Lvl 90, Galaiwen (Loremaster/Elf) Lvl 90, Kirstina (Burg/ Hobbit) Lvl 87, Tankette (Guardian/Hobbit) Lvl 59, Gladyolis (Minnie/Hobbit) Lvl 40

  11. #111

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Well on Landy we have plenty of Captain, the other day I saw 12 Captains in 21st hall out of the 30 or so people around the Mile Marker
    [center][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a0000000bf67f/01003/signature.png]Peirce[/charsig][/center]

 

 
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