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  1. #76
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    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Replica View Post
    Whenever someone asks which classes have low populations, captains are most of the time the number one answer.

    Why is that?
    What is it about the class that makes us low in numbers?


    If you ask me I could not tell you. I can't decide if it's just a perfect storm of not being the primary class of anything. Other than buffing that is. Or if it's the lack luster pet, or what not. I really do not know.

    I like the class. It's gotten some what slow to level, but I was told that would be expected.

    What do you think?
    I didn't really read the rest of the thread, but I'll reply to OP and the solo comments... I'm assuming the hybridity is what's difficult for many people. In solo, and unless you regularly use a herald for SB, you won't be using a lot of your skills; that might be where people get the "boring" part.

    Personally, I find captains great for soloing. I did most of the Trollshaws quests when they were yellow-orange-red to me, and did fine. It helps, however, that (1) my very first MMO toon was leveled as a healing druid in WoW (yeah, THAT was slow, but I thought it was "normal"), and (2) I have a tank mentality, so I prefer survivability over DPS. If anyone starts out with a DPS toon in this or another game, captains will seem relatively slower. Pretty natural.

    I remember doing Forestwalker series in Trollshaws when they were orange-red (uh, the 3-piece armour set); you have to kill those Guaradain(sp) in the ruins, and I regularly took two oranges or an orange-red at the same time without dying--at some point, I had to take three because one respawned. Sure, I had to take out all the stops, but it helps to know all the class skills. And mind, I usually really soloed from level 35-56, from the point I got standards to the point I got the archer. I really don't think soloing is bad for captains at all, but it takes more finesse whenever you play a class with such a wide spread of skills, and it's true that we don't get most of our skills until after level 20.

    [url="https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?506048-Talent-trees-class-roles-and-player-choice"]Talent trees, class roles, and player choice[/url]
    Crafting crit chance analysis: [URL="https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?410893-Sample-size-THREE-THOUSAND"]3000 sample size[/URL], [URL="https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?420198-Sample-size-ONE-THOUSAND"]1000 sample size[/URL]

  2. #77
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    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by seyahat View Post
    I know this has been done to death, but I don't see how we are gimped solo. Because most of us can't solo three mans? We gobble up every solo quest in the game and, in general, do so more easily than just about every class (wardens being the solo uberfest to which no other class can compare). Much angst, but I don't see the cause.
    Seriously. I don't understand. If I'm playing solo and I want a little boost, I just retrait for mostly red/yellow and deal with the fact that while my archer herald and I won't be able to stand in one spot and beat the living daylights out of mobs as quickly as, say, a champion might, together we can deal a decent amount of damage (no, not omg-uber-damage, but decent damage all the same) and still maintain extreme survivability. I don't find it frustrating at all. If you're the sort of person who MUST mow down baddies in seconds then...really, this isn't your class.
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  3. #78
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    Smile Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    I honestly cannot understand the "we suck solo" statements either.
    I have not ever had a problem soloing my captain and love the way it plays. There is enough variation to the class that you can focus more on DPS, Healing or running with a pet. I see no down side to being a jack of all trades personally.
    This is the only class I have played for most of the time and was able to solo the 3 man instance for Vol. II, Book 8, Chapter 6: Return to Azanarukâr where you have to take an elf with you and fight Gwathnor. I am sure that many classes could solo that 3 man instance but it was fun to do as a captain.
    Last edited by adamantiumdragon; Mar 30 2010 at 02:02 PM.
    [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/windfola/Ellandor][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0720600000000c4fc/01002/signature.png]Ellandor[/charsig][/url]
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  4. #79
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    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by vandyr View Post
    Once again, if any of you actually bothered to read what you're arguing against, the vast majority of the complaints come from outside of group efforts. Why people can't seem to get this through their heads is mind boggling, especially considering how many times its been hammered into the text throughout the multiple pages of all three threads discussing this issue on the front page of the captain forums.

    Pretty much everybody has agreed countless times that the captain is an amazing group support class. That's not really the issue. The issue comes from the class' lackluster solo performance. That's been said so many times I can't see how you guys still keep bringing up our group role.

    Kobold is right about percentages and how they affect the different classes in this game. Percentage gains on low output skills is still a low output return, and that's just the way it is, and unfortunately, it hits the captain the hardest of any class.

    Personally, i think the captain is a great group asset. I find soloing to be slow, sluggish and downright frustrating at times.
    Oh, you make it so easy.

    That's because I (and likely others) were replying specifically to Koboldfodder's commentary that compared captains to other classes and specific "roles"--where the concept of "role" does not exist except inside groups. Moreover, by concentrating on solo play and equating it with only DPS output, you're in effect comparing only to primary DPS classes; this is logically unsound because, as most of us are pointing out, captains were built for groups; that means solo won't be as fast, which is not wrong or bad. It's a playstyle, one that is not for everyone.

    Heck, he even missed the primary class definition, which is telling.

    As for the percentage issue, you're missing the fact that low output among MULTIPLE role fronts is the nature of hybridity and, still, is not a problem. If you take the low-DPS or low-heal numbers out of context--that they can both be done at the exact same time without changing stances/traits*--then once again you're not understanding hybrid play. If it's frustrating in any way, this class simply isn't for you.

    Even though I didn't group often with my captain at all, I know how it works and I was still fine with solo play and hybridity; this class is ENTIRELY MADE FOR ME.

    *Class traits, naturally, make a big difference in actual role efficiency, but that discussion is elsewhere.
    [url="https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?506048-Talent-trees-class-roles-and-player-choice"]Talent trees, class roles, and player choice[/url]
    Crafting crit chance analysis: [URL="https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?410893-Sample-size-THREE-THOUSAND"]3000 sample size[/URL], [URL="https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?420198-Sample-size-ONE-THOUSAND"]1000 sample size[/URL]

  5. #80

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reillan View Post
    agreed. I've played 7 classes to level 30, 5 to 65, and captain was by far the worst leveling experience of them all. That said, he's quickly overtaking my champion as my favorite 65.
    I wonder what the second class you couldn't get past 30 was?

  6. #81

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    I never said captain was gimp solo, I said it was slow. Pre OP Guard slow. That's my gripe. Pre-normalization, it didn't feel that way at all, because a couple of massive crits here and there kept my kill speed going nicely, or tore down a sig/elite that much quicker. I understand we attack faster now, with much less per-hit dps output, but the amount of skills on our hotbars hasn't really changed. We still don't have very many, and the cooldowns never changed, so all that extra attack speed doesn't really make a whole lot of difference in making up for the dps we lost over our former burst damage capability.

    Summoning the archer herald post 56 sped things up a little, but not to the point I'd be happy with. Keep in mind, as I've said many, many times, I have three characters in the 57-62 range: a full tank spec guard, a KoA traited LM, and a 57 captain. Neither the guard or the LM are traited for dps..I expect the kill speed I get with the guard, which tbh sits about the same as the captain. The LM far and away exceeds the captains solo speed. Therein lies my issue.

    I feel the captain is a slow soloer. I feel that this wasn't always the case. I do not feel that the captain is "gimped". I feel that a captain's solo capability could be improved upon, as it once was. For me, having started my captain at launch, it peaked back before pre normalization. Launch captains were gimp, they were improved greatly, and then kicked back down a couple notches with normalization. Imo.
    Last edited by vandyr; Mar 30 2010 at 02:41 PM.

  7. #82
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    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    My only qq about captain is that their best dps skills are gated behind crits.
    The amount of tweaking it takes to get crit percentage to a mere 15% is staggering - and for only 15%!
    guards have similar, though smaller, problem with skill gated behind successful block.
    what's wrong with implementing a system similar to fervour, or attunement, or gambits etc?

    Anyway, the buffer "role" is what throws ppl off i guess.
    [CENTER][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0b20c0000000f60e2/signature.png]Jaylaxel[/charsig]
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  8. #83

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    I found getting back into my captain pretty hard after leveling my warden. The warden class is so twitchy and has such extreme survivability that it took me a little bit to get back to my plodding captain. As a warden I pretty much hit buttons non-stop where a captain if I mess up my battle sequence I'll end up sitting there auto-attacking until my skills are back off cooldown. For me its more of a pace issue, I like fast exciting combat where as even the captain animations feel slow.

    The warden satisfies my blood lust for pulling and killing entire camps. My captain appeals to my cooler rationale and strategic general badasseryness. Plus he looks pretty sweet in heavy armor and a top hat.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000014b10a/signature.png]Ranadin[/charsig]

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  9. #84
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    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by vandyr View Post
    I never said captain was gimp solo, I said it was slow. Pre OP Guard slow. That's my gripe. Pre-normalization, it didn't feel that way at all, because a couple of massive crits here and there kept my kill speed going nicely, or tore down a sig/elite that much quicker. I understand we attack faster now, with much less per-hit dps output, but the amount of skills on our hotbars hasn't really changed. We still don't have very many, and the cooldowns never changed, so all that extra attack speed doesn't really make a whole lot of difference in making up for the dps we lost over our former burst damage capability.

    Summoning the archer herald post 56 sped things up a little, but not to the point I'd be happy with. Keep in mind, as I've said many, many times, I have three characters in the 57-62 range: a full tank spec guard, a KoA traited LM, and a 57 captain. Neither the guard or the LM are traited for dps..I expect the kill speed I get with the guard, which tbh sits about the same as the captain. The LM far and away exceeds the captains solo speed. Therein lies my issue.

    I feel the captain is a slow soloer. I feel that this wasn't always the case. I do not feel that the captain is "gimped". I feel that a captain's solo capability could be improved upon, as it once was. For me, having started my captain at launch, it peaked back before pre normalization. Launch captains were gimp, they were improved greatly, and then kicked back down a couple notches with normalization. Imo.
    All right, then, the simple answer to the OP in your case is really--"Captains are low in numbers because they level slowly, and lots of people don't want to deal with that." Fair enough, and many would agree, and that's been repeated in this thread from the beginning too (okay, I just went back to skim some of them).

    However, I wouldn't say that it's a crippling defect, and I'd even go so far to agree with some who comment that the challenge is probably a good thing in, well, weeding out players...

    Though getting into the numerical meat of such a discussion is best done/has been done elsewhere, especially when we're talking about "feelings" and completely subjective definitions of what's slow-vs-"gimp."

    I mean, stuff like this--
    Quote Originally Posted by Koboldfodder View Post
    I guarantee you that EVERY Captain has a Hunter alt. That is just the way it is. You get jealous of the classes that do one thing great.
    --makes me laugh. Besides the fact that patently false and extreme views like these aren't helpful (oh, I don't believe captains are perfect either, but geez), they tend to miss an important, underlying point:

    There's a very big difference between "This class doesn't work with my playstyle, therefore it's gimped" and "My playstyle doesn't work with this class, therefore I'll do something else." Guess how people usually confuse these two things?

    Of course, this sort of commentary is more enlightening when done across major class/mechanic changes like what happened in SoM. However, even here in the captain forum, the whole DPS-gimp debate is polarized and hardly unified the way most--and we can really say "most"--feel about the Legendary system. That in itself says something, doesn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by aleczander View Post
    My only qq about captain is that their best dps skills are gated behind crits.
    The amount of tweaking it takes to get crit percentage to a mere 15% is staggering - and for only 15%!
    guards have similar, though smaller, problem with skill gated behind successful block.
    what's wrong with implementing a system similar to fervour, or attunement, or gambits etc?

    Anyway, the buffer "role" is what throws ppl off i guess.
    Your crit remarks don't make much sense to me. Ignoring the archer because we get it so late in the game and Telling Mark, we have seven primary DPS skills in levels 1-30. Four of those are gated: three are gated behind other states (i.e. other skills to reach battle-hardened, etc.), and one is gated behind mob death. That one skill gated behind mob death, Routing Cry, is the ONLY direct DPS skill that opens specifically after a melee crit from either DB/PA. Disregarding the fact that it's not a plural crit-gated skill"s", I doubt most people would argue Routing is one of our best DPS skills to begin with. I consider War-cry a buff and not direct DPS, but if we count that, that still leads to only two crit-or-mob-death-gated skills out of eight. The real bottleneck, I'd say, is Battle-shout, which ungates both DB/PA (leading to Elendil).

    I do completely agree with your last statement, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Happyfish View Post
    I found getting back into my captain pretty hard after leveling my warden. The warden class is so twitchy and has such extreme survivability that it took me a little bit to get back to my plodding captain. As a warden I pretty much hit buttons non-stop where a captain if I mess up my battle sequence I'll end up sitting there auto-attacking until my skills are back off cooldown. For me its more of a pace issue, I like fast exciting combat where as even the captain animations feel slow.

    The warden satisfies my blood lust for pulling and killing entire camps. My captain appeals to my cooler rationale and strategic general badasseryness. Plus he looks pretty sweet in heavy armor and a top hat.
    Yes, it's been mentioned elsewhere as well that captain skill pacing is a big part of getting comfortable with the playstyle. (As for blood lust, wouldn't that be champion? )
    [url="https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?506048-Talent-trees-class-roles-and-player-choice"]Talent trees, class roles, and player choice[/url]
    Crafting crit chance analysis: [URL="https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?410893-Sample-size-THREE-THOUSAND"]3000 sample size[/URL], [URL="https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?420198-Sample-size-ONE-THOUSAND"]1000 sample size[/URL]

  10. #85
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    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koboldfodder View Post
    I will tell it like it is.

    Captains are the red headed gimps of LOTRO. Always have been, always will be. This game was specifically designed around classes that do one thing the best. Guardians tank the best, Minstrels heal the best, Hunters range damage the best, Champions AOE melee damage the best, Burglars debuff the best, Loremaster...uh, well ok maybe that one is not there.

    The game is pretty basic in terms of combat mechanics. It's not like EQ where you need certain classes for certain things, nor is it like EQ2 where you HAVE to be precise about when you do certain abilities.

    This game is pretty forgiving. And you dont really need a jack of all trades class. There is no need for it in this game.

    Captains do nothing better than anyone, if you want to count buffs that is fine...but show me one instance where you if you dont have a Captain you fail.

    You need a Guardian, you need a Minstrel and you need DPS. Captains are fine in groups....but do you really need one?

    And because 99% of the people solo this game, you are stuck soloing a jack of all trades class....and that is sloooooooooow and depressing.

    Watch a minstrel solo....you will get real depressed.
    Watch a Loremaster solo...you will get depressed.
    Watch a Burglar solo...depressing.
    Watch a Guardian go in his DPS mode....depressing.

    And while those classes are killing at a faster rate, you are stuck using TWO melee primary attacks. That is it. Two primary attacks.

    Sure, Captains are very good at surviving but to what end.....if the game is mostly a solo game, and combat is very basic then there is no real need to survive a big pull of three mobs when other classes do the same thing by killing them faster.

    Captains are the class that come up short on everything.

    You get heavy armor, but you cannot really tank.
    You get a taunt, but you cannot really hold aggro.
    You get a couple of heals, but you cannot be a primary group healer.
    You get a shield...but it's a light shield (I have wanted this changed since closed beta, make it a trait like Champs for heavy shields).
    You get a big weapon, but you have to rely on crits.

    It just feels like you never do anything great and because you can do everything so-so....you pay the price by being eternally gimp.

    Yes, I realize that if you get great gear and slot everything right you can get pretty good at a lot of things....but that takes forever.

    The Captain class does not even get playable until the mid 30s. Most people will just delete it. As soon as you start a hunter, you know its a great class. As soon as you start a guardian, you know exactly what your role is. Minstrels...same thing.

    The real kick in the nuts was the introduction of the Warden and the Runekeeper. They put in a GREAT tank class...but gave him medium armor as sort of a penalty. Well, it turns out it's not that big a penalty.

    The Runekeeper? They are the class that broke the game in terms of class design. They can trait for first tier DPS or they can trait for primary healing. Why cant a Captain trait for primary tanking, or primary healing. Second rate is all you get.

    It's also very, very slow and time consuming to play a Captain. Everything slows down to a crawl and that is just not very fun.

    Once you get great gear, and great LIs (not good, but great) and have all your deeds and such...then you begin to be on equal level with the other classes. But it takes sooooo long to get there by the time you arrive, you are burnt out.

    I guarantee you that EVERY Captain has a Hunter alt. That is just the way it is. You get jealous of the classes that do one thing great.

    If I could magically switch my Captain's traits, deeds, gear and LIs over to another class I would probably be a burglar. But I put so much work into this Captain it would be a shame to not play it as a main.

    I enjoy the class at level 65 with all the bells and whistles...but a lot of the time it still feels clunky.
    I dont have a Hunter alt over 30, and the one I have I havent touched in forever.

    The only other high level Character I managed to develop was a Loremaster, and I like deeper playstyles usualy.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0620500000007c780/01008/signature.png]Jadoth[/charsig]
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  11. #86

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    But you DO have a hunter alt, which was the point.

    Captains: Worked really well on paper before the game got going. But because of the percentage mechanic, the combat system and the overall min/max feel of the game, a jack of all trades class simply does not belong.

    There is nothing wrong with admitting the class is the gimp class of Lotro, we still will play the Captain. I do. I have one role and one role only, that is back-up healer in a 6 man group. That is what people invite Captains for, so spec HOH and work your legacies through healing and you are viable. Well, ok telling mark to 10% is good to.

    Now, if they ever took away the flat percentage system and put in the ability to "stack" raw heal numbers or DPS numbers (like EQ2) then you have a class that excels. But we are a victim or low numbers and a blocked percentage barrier that equates to minimal increases at best. Sorry, but that is true.

    I am still asked for groups, so all is still good, but my (and every other Beta Captains) vision of the class never came to fruition. Other classes were changed dramatically, by adding stances to Minstrels and Guardians and by adding the two great classes of RK and Warden.

    But how many of you remembered the odd stance they took on Heralds. People hated them and every Captain wanted them out of the equation. For some reason Turbine did not budge on this issue when they DID budge on a lot of other issues with the other classes. What was left over was the banner situation and I guarantee you that 90% of the Captains use banners for the vast majority of their leveling career, and the other 10% are just experimenting.

    Anyway, dump the percentage system and add in heavy shields and the ability to stack defense/heals/DPS without going overboard on mob DPS/ability and you have a great class.

  12. Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koboldfodder View Post
    I have one role and one role only, that is back-up healer in a 6 man group.
    Then you are short-changing the people you play with. The benefits a captain should bring, if they understand their own class, are listed all over this forum. I won't list them again.

    If backup healing were the only thing a captain could do, I'd take a 2nd minstrel or RK over a captain in any group or raid. Instead it's the only class guaranteed two spots on any raid we run.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/012030000000489f7/01002/signature.png]Ghira[/charsig]
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  13. #88
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    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alderwren View Post
    Then you are short-changing the people you play with. The benefits a captain should bring, if they understand their own class, are listed all over this forum. I won't list them again.

    If backup healing were the only thing a captain could do, I'd take a 2nd minstrel or RK over a captain in any group or raid. Instead it's the only class guaranteed two spots on any raid we run.
    This!

    I can walk into Moria right now, announce my presence, and be in a raid in under a minute.

  14. #89
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    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koboldfodder View Post
    But you DO have a hunter alt, which was the point.
    You had no point there, and to state it thusly is disingenuous. Almost everyone has "alts"--and a number of players are like myself where we might try out a class up to a certain point and then shove them into the pile as bank/auction alts after deciding we'll never play them again. I have four of these storage alts, and three are under 15; the highest is a champion (21), which I abandoned because I realized I hated the playstyle. Having a 21 DPS dead alt to a 65 captain active main is far more telling than whining about everyone just "having an alt."

    ...I'm not going to bother quoting the rest of your post because it's just as pathetic, but I came to realize something about you from your activity in this thread. I'll repeat myself from an earlier post:

    There's a very big difference between "This class doesn't work with my playstyle, therefore it's gimped" and "My playstyle doesn't work with this class, therefore I'll do something else." Guess how people usually confuse these two things?
    You fall squarely into the former group, judging by how you personally insist your captain has only half a role in any group (+1 to Alderwren). There is nothing wrong with admitting you picked the wrong class for your playstyle. Unless, of course, you're the type who easily falls victim to the "sunk costs" economic psychology... which naturally begs the question: Why on Middle Earth are you still playing a captain when the class makes you so unhappy? Hmm?

    This is a game. Even if you get to cap, you can toss aside that toon if you end up unhappy with it for any reason. This isn't college, where you picked the wrong major and are into your senior year, ten credits from graduation. This isn't a job, where you got on the wrong career ladder and are trapped vertically in hateful drudgery or horizontally in other options.

    If you're at end-game and complaining about having only half a role in groups, failing to understand hybrid support play (and the buff description), there is something wrong with you in sticking to a class like that. Masochist comes to mind.
    Last edited by Trilwych; Apr 06 2010 at 02:06 PM. Reason: omg, posted too late... semantics...
    [url="https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?506048-Talent-trees-class-roles-and-player-choice"]Talent trees, class roles, and player choice[/url]
    Crafting crit chance analysis: [URL="https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?410893-Sample-size-THREE-THOUSAND"]3000 sample size[/URL], [URL="https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?420198-Sample-size-ONE-THOUSAND"]1000 sample size[/URL]

  15. #90

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koboldfodder View Post
    I guarantee you that EVERY Captain has a Hunter alt. That is just the way it is.
    Please stop making broad statements saying "All captains this" or "Every captain that". You speak for yourself only and not all captains.

    This is one captain the does NOT have a hunter alt. I can guarantee you that.
    Gungus - Captain

  16. #91
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    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    *Looks at this thread*

    *Reads on amusing post, decides to respond*

    I personally don't have a hunter alt and, for the longest time, I didn't have an alt at all, the Captain played the way I wanted to play. The only reason I have alts now (since the SoM dropped) is that there is a lack of instanced content that I feel like running, SG/SH/WP (I never run dungeons so there is that). Playing these on different characters is more interesting than farming the same intance 100 times on a single character.

    Um whatelse, lets see

    Oh Captains are not backup healers, we are a hybrid class, we buff, give moderate DPS (dont argue this please there are other threads for that), heal, can off tank (ie pull mobs off the minnnie). Alternatively we are main healers. We recently 2 captain healed the 3 goblins in DN, i think we could probably do the BO in a controlled group, i dont think trolls/mistress is possible though due to the dispersed damage.

    Continues reading...

    *decides on a random blanket statement*

    The problem alot of people have with captains from everything i have read is that they don't challenge themselves on them, people stick to single mob pulls don't try to do trickier evironments because they lack confidence in the class. Have a play around trying to solo things like SH/helgcham it can be done, and it gives you a much better appreciation about how the class can perform.

    *steps down off stool*

    *goes back to sleep*
    [URL="http://catalyst.guildlaunch.com"][/URL][SIZE=1] [/SIZE][SIZE=1]Votan | Xeyila | Grisburnakh
    Retired - Thanks for the fun and the fights[/SIZE]

  17. #92

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    ^ I was in the same boat about the alts thing, I just leveled mine in Moria, not SoM.

    I have 7 class slots (never bought the SoM upgrade), and no hunter...I played one until ~20ish like 3-4 times, and ended up deleted it each time.

    I like the champ/burg/captain/RK/etc...you're able to move around instead of 3 tabbing...not fun for me.
    Kraken, Thesungodra

  18. #93
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    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Took me forever to level my captain on brandywine, but imo it was totaly worth it.

  19. #94
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    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beastnas View Post
    It's a class that offers most rewarding play at endgame imo.

    A lot of people level solo, which creates these issues like the sluggish leveling and no main focus at first, and I think they just get worn out.
    How anyone could level sluggishly on this game is beyond me. This is by far the most easiest and quickest game to level up on I have ever played. I have to restrain my captain to keep from leveling up too fast in fact.

    The captain does how ever mature slowly, and feels weak until you start hitting the legendary scene, then it becomes good. That's the main reason I feel captains aren't overly played. Lot of players probably lose interest before the class starts getting good, but leveing up shouldn't ever be a problem.

  20. #95
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    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    How anyone could level sluggishly on this game is beyond me. This is by far the most easiest and quickest game to level up on I have ever played. I have to restrain my captain to keep from leveling up too fast in fact.

    The captain does how ever mature slowly, and feels weak until you start hitting the legendary scene, then it becomes good. That's the main reason I feel captains aren't overly played. Lot of players probably lose interest before the class starts getting good, but leveing up shouldn't ever be a problem.
    Yeah and compared to leveling pre-moria versus post, it's insane.

    With these skirmishes they added and the restructured content around to be a bit more friendly, to adding in waypoints or glowy areas where quest are, etc, etc. They have speed the leveling to warp speeds now compared to the launch days.

  21. #96
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    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocatequil View Post
    *Looks at this thread*

    *goes back to sleep*
    This..


    I'm amazed how far from dying this thread is.. especially its all the same bs that goes in loop...
    [COLOR=#008080]If it isn't about FlameThrower, Grenade and Rocket Launcher, you're playing the wrong classes, race and game..
    [/COLOR]

  22. #97
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    Apr 2009
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    245

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koboldfodder View Post
    Again, Captains are the weak-link class in this game. It's the game mechanics that gimped the class. On paper, Captains looked great. People were really interested in the class when they released the info, in fact they were probably number two right behind Hunters.

    Hunters are a joy to play in this game, the way combat works and the overall mechanics of the game give synergy to Hunters and LOTRO.

    Captains are pretty much the opposite. While it is fun to play the class, there is no real synergy with the Captains abilities and the game mechanics.

    Here are some examples.

    LOTRO is a percentage based game. Initially, they listed the percentages. 1% or 2%, etc...then they realized that this created a big road block for future development. You could never get over 100%, so the only thing to do was have odd 12.4% type of numbers (and there were). They changed it to an actual number, but the percentage is still there (just mouse over your stats and stuff).

    Classes that have top damage, or top healing or top tanking....the number/percentage thing works. A minstrel can have a low percentage increase to a high yield healing skill and there is a significant increase.

    For Captains, everything is low. Low healing, low numbers, etc. You can get all your little legacies, traits, and count up the percentages....and then when you add them to a skill that is low to begin with, it's not that big of an increase when you take into account mob damage.

    Valiant strike is a perfect example. Up all the percentages, get your valiant strike armor and legacies and you do about 30 more per heal. That is nothing.

    So the healing mechanics favor high number healing, which the Captain does not have. The trait system favors high number healing/damage which the Captain does not have.

    See the pattern?

    Here is another. Captains are the only class that MUST crit to do well. Well, those crits are on the same percentage system and while that is not as bad as the healing aspect, when you look at the Captain melee cycle you scratch your head.

    Captains have two primary melee attacks that are not affected by the battle ready stat. The armor increase attack, which we all spam and the bleeding would attack which we all spam. Initially, the cutting attack was a LOWER damage attack in terms of percentage. It still is by the way. They figured you are doing two attacks so there is no need for any increase to the damage. One attack, then another at a lower percentage. Again, factor in the weak percentage system with the already low DPS...

    Second, because Captains are a crit based class, there are several things that can happen when you attack and most of them are bad.

    -You hit your shout, to enable your battle attacks (In the past, if this missed you were outta luck). But now the fun begins.

    On any attack there is a base 10% miss with any skill (again, percentages). All classes are like this with attacks, so no real difference.

    -You can miss your attack
    -You can get blocked
    -You can get parried
    -You can get evaded
    -You can hit for normal damage.

    All of those things are bad if you are a Captain. You dont want any of them to happen ever. No class does, but more so with the Captain because you are a CRIT based class. Factor those things in with a lousy crit percentage system and you can get some long fights.

    No other class is so reliant on one random aspect.

    Here are some more. Captains have a lot of skills that branch out in different areas but never truly mesh well other than the group heal + rally cry cooldown legacy (this works well).

    You have an aggro mark skill, yet no AOE aggro skill and you lack the ability to use even a medium shield. Sure you CAN tank, but you are a very weak tank especially with adds. Okay, so you are the off tank. That works.

    But you lack the defensive skills that the Wardens/Guardians have that make those classes shine as tanks. They have skills that mesh with their defensive abilites and make them better. Captains dont. You can count that armor increase as one, but when you compare that to a heavy shield with it's block skill.....there is really no comparison.

    I have been harping about all this since day one, hoping the class would get changed and it has been changed a lot. We are not as gimp as we were in the day, but still we lag behind all other classes.

    I honestly think this game's design is so basic that the whole jack-of-all trades thing does not really work. Mobs are either too weak, or too powerful. When they are too weak, there is no need to get all those skills ready and working in a group because you are plowing through the mobs to the bosses. And when you get to the boss, it is too strong for the Captains lesser abilities to tank/DPS.

    The primary job classes are a lot of fun and really work well in this game. Guardians make great tanks, Hunters make great DPS, Minstrels make great healers. Even the two add on classes or Warden and RK totally out class the Captain in the "wow" factor when you compare the tank/heal/DPS abilities. Sure the Captain can do a little bit of everything but in most situations in this game the primary class is what was intended.

    Captains do fill a roll though. They are the back up healer and the back up tank. That is ok, but I dont think that is what people wanted out of this class when they first decided on it.

    Anyway, I still will play my Captain as my main because despite the weaknesses it can still be fun, but frustrating at times. Hopefully they will lessen the restrictions with class vision, especially considering the RuneKeeper class. That class can not only be the primary healer, but the primary DPS class. Sure, they have to trait one or the other....but how many Captains would love that ability.
    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

    -Robert A. Heinlein

  23. #98
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    Jun 2008
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    44

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turimbar View Post
    I for one think there is a great sinergy with the captain abilities and the game mechanics. Captains are not the best dps, tank or heal. But they make the best dps, tanks and healers even better.
    I cannot agree more, and I think this sums it up best as to why CPT's exist in the game.

    My first 65 was a MNS, my second was a GRD, and my third was my CPT. The CPT quickly has become my favorite to play. I absolutely love playing the CPT class and it's become my main.

    Sure CPT's rely heavily on crits to be the most effective and yes every swing of the weapon there are at least four bad things that can happen. But I haven't had much trouble getting quests done. I've even had bad timing to my attack rhythm and been left sitting auto-attacking waiting on cooldowns, but I still managed. My CPT has +1120 Tactic: Relentless Attack and I put the +20 Agility crafted rune on his Greatsword. I feel I get a decent amount of crits - even got one at 1996dmg devastating post SoM. It's a good balance: I don't feel overly gimped and I'm not running around with a nuclear bazooka one-shotting mobs and bosses.

    And no, I do not have a HNT alt - I actually have a very limited tolerance for that class.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b0000001c20b4/01001/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  24. #99

    Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koboldfodder View Post
    Captains are pretty much the opposite. While it is fun to play the class, there is no real synergy with the Captains abilities and the game mechanics.

    I read all that. And here is my 2c on it.
    My main (as you can see from my sig is RK). I started cappy because I wanted to have healer, offense and support classes. My friend runs a champ as his main, he was looking for an alt -- both of us chose to build up cappys.


    So last night while playing in different zones both of us made comments -- "this is simply cheating..." cappys survivability and, therefore, if played correctly, overall ability reaches far beyond that of a champ or a rune keeper.

    His toon is at lvl 48, mine is reaching 23... perhaps we will feel different by the end game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koboldfodder View Post
    Even the two add on classes or Warden and RK totally out class the Captain in the "wow" factor when you compare the tank/heal/DPS abilities. Sure the Captain can do a little bit of everything but in most situations in this game the primary class is what was intended.
    Have you tried to tank on RK? Seriously? How did that go for you? Playing RK as for my main, I got "wowed" by cappy and how powerful the class is if played right; i have another 40 levels to change my opinion.
    Last edited by lariva; Apr 09 2010 at 01:38 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0b20c0000000eb9a8/signature.png]Lariva[/charsig]
    [IMG]http://www.speedtest.net/result/651472857.png[/IMG]

  25. Re: Why are Captains low in numbers?

    I'll go back to a point that I made early in this thread, namely that the premise of the OP is likely incorrect.

    By what standard are captains low in numbers? Are the lower in number to other classes? Well, most certainly lower in number compared to most other classes: classic tanks, healers, and dps are the basic structure of the genre, and it is no surprise that we are outnumbered by hunters, guardians, or minstrels. *Most* players clearly prefer dps roles which helps to account for the large number of hunters and champs (and, increasingly, dps-oriented RKs). Captains, LMs, and Burgs make the game easier and groups more efficient, but in the end, it is only the nuanced mechanics of end game that might make us "necessary." In contrast, most group stuff requires at least one main healer and at least one tank, plus as much dps as the group can muster.

    Captains are, in the end, a utility class and, like the other utility classes, we are fewer in number. Are we fewer than other utility classes? Probably depends on the server and I will be willing to grant that my server may have an unusual number of cappies. But, regardless of server, we couldn't possibly be massively outnumbered by burgs or LMs. *All* of the utility classes are at the bottom of the rolls... which is not an indication that any of them are broken. All of these classes are slightly slower to level and a little less friendly to casual gamers (though I think comments about how "complicated" they are may be overstating the difficulty of playing a video game). It isn't surprising - or an indication of game flaw - that they are fewer in number.

    One thing we have in common with other utility groups is that we are often doing amazing things, without anybody realizing: I prevented two wipes last night with bubbles, but the only thing folks realized is that we almost died, and then we didn't. Burgs, LMs, and Captains make a lot of content recognizably easier, without making it obvious *why* it was easier.

    Another measure of captains being low in number is that captains are in demand. Although I am in a non-raiding kin, I can generally join with raiders when I want to. If I played a hunter I could not. I have noticed that raiding kin typically need captains (along with burgs and assorted others), when they recruit. Why is this? Because, while we are not as friendly for new players as some classes, we are absolutely useful in end game content. To put it delicately, this, my dear friends, is *not* what I would call a cause for concern.

    So, is the class perfect? Of course not. But the idea that it is "broken" is, well, a bit silly.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a00000033326e/01008/signature.png]doronor[/charsig]

 

 
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