Why are Captains low in numbers?

[aleczander]

I don't know... i started a Cappy alt 2 weeks ago, and I'm loving him.

I've only died once (due to disconnect), and I have to say i've done some battles that none of my other alts at the same level would have survived. That means no trip to the circle, no backtracking, big time saver. So as far as I can tell so far, time leveling is a wash in the end, if not faster that some classes. I highly doubt that they are the slowest to level class of them all...

People's perceptions about solo combat being slow probably comes from lack of melee skills...but I really don't see that. BS, DB, Cutting attack, DS, then repeat if no crits, and no healing needing anywhere..but really my LM or Burg skill rotation feels no better solo, even though they might have 1 or 2 extra in there..the buffs/debuffs "feel" like the a captain's pre-fight buffs, just with short durations and a need to reapply (different, but not necessarily better)

[Draugnim]

Well gee...I've leveled just about every class. I guess I don't know what I'm talking about then. I'd rather use my burg, RK, champ, mins, hunter or even tank in OP over my captain for solo things. P.S. - anyone who tells you to take one mob at a time on any class isn't an efficient leveler period. It would be safe to say I'd never take anything they said seriously ever again.




That wasn't the point. The point of contention was slow leveling, not end-game uberosity. And they do level slowly relative to most other classes.

No one who knows what they're talking about ever questioned whether they're good to bring along or not.

Love my captain. Absolutely awsome. However, killspeed is not one of his virtues. I am at peace with this. In fact, I am bringing up an RK to farm marks and the like with. I've experimented with every build I can for killspeed and it just isn't there. So I have resolved to play my captain in groups soley at this point. Love the toon, hate the grind.

[Replica]

Thanks for making this thread so productive!

I have been leveling my Captain still. I find him to be more than suficiant, and I have gotten quite accustomed to the class.
I really enjoy walking around and healing people. I pretty much like everything about the class, except that Halberds generate greater threat. I understand it's for the tanking Captains, but our flagship weapon does not seem like a good idea for a person who enjoys the healing aspect more.

I am a founder with this game, and I have always enjoyed the Captain class. I do not have any characters of 30 as I usually just RPed characters who farmed, or sought wood.

I am sorry to hear that some of you do not like the class as much as I, but oh well. More raid spots for me!

[fbonfilio]

Funny my kin has around ten level 65 Captains and they all love the class. I want to level mine up to 65 but some nights we have 5-8 Capts on.

Just because a class doesn't have high DPS output and levels a little slower doesn't make them a usless class. I don't think I have ever heard of a group turning down a Captain.

[Malakho]

I think one of the biggest issues right now at lower levels is the sparity of people at lower levels, compounded with the reworking of lower areas to be more solo oriented, create an environment where the captain is not in their true form until much later.

back when folks had to group in most areas to accomplish the quest chains (and epic quests), captain were in their element. ohnoes! a person short...it's okay, we have a cappie. whos gonna heal? its just an epic small group event, we got a cappie well be fine.

Don't need the groups now, so dont need the cappie spekichul skills, until much later, so folks aren't seeing the benefits until much later. My captain is only 48, but i had the benefit of leveling him early moria, and i ran every group thing up through his 30's (got distracted by other classes at that point, captain is slowly catching up). On my first GB run at lvl 21 I realized how busy and fun a cappy can be...I don't think your average player leveling one in bree now can attest to the same thing.

[Namesse]

My captain is mid-30s and I'm enjoying it so far, glad to hear that things will get even better. The lack of an AOE is frustrating at times, but I learned to deal with it with my burg, and I don't see that the capt is any slower to level than that class.

It will still take me a long time to level her, as my other toons still occupy most of my time; I really don't like the grind either, but I'm in no hurry.

I've played with some some really good captains, and yes, every group was better with them. But I say that about burgs too, and the similarities are evident: buff/debuff, not really needed for a group but a group is noticeably better when one is present.

[Replica]

The only problem I have with this class is the pain in the butt "solo" quests. What I mean is for example, retake weathertop. I can do this with my hands behind me back on my hunter. My captain on the other hand is lucky to survive. I asked for groups, and everyone is like "lulz that's easy nub!" yet it takes me an hour to get the top to only die in thirty seconds due to 5 second stuns, resets, boss healing, and disarm.

It's poop is what it is. Yeah I get a "pet" that does pitiful damage, low health, and no heal for myself apart from after you kill something. It ridiculous.

[MorningStarSE]

I've played with some some really good captains, and yes, every group was better with them. But I say that about burgs too, and the similarities are evident: buff/debuff, not really needed for a group but a group is noticeably better when one is present.

A part of the equation, but most people don't understand that - they think with their dps head. I know people who aren't aware of the cure debuffs pots are easily available and can save tons of healing just by using them...

[Larce]

The only problem I have with this class is the pain in the butt "solo" quests. What I mean is for example, retake weathertop. I can do this with my hands behind me back on my hunter. My captain on the other hand is lucky to survive. I asked for groups, and everyone is like "lulz that's easy nub!" yet it takes me an hour to get the top to only die in thirty seconds due to 5 second stuns, resets, boss healing, and disarm.

It's poop is what it is. Yeah I get a "pet" that does pitiful damage, low health, and no heal for myself apart from after you kill something. It ridiculous.

Hmmm I don't recall this quest being an issue for me.

[aleczander]

The only problem I have with this class is the pain in the butt "solo" quests. What I mean is for example, retake weathertop. I can do this with my hands behind me back on my hunter. My captain on the other hand is lucky to survive. I asked for groups, and everyone is like "lulz that's easy nub!" yet it takes me an hour to get the top to only die in thirty seconds due to 5 second stuns, resets, boss healing, and disarm.

It's poop is what it is. Yeah I get a "pet" that does pitiful damage, low health, and no heal for myself apart from after you kill something. It ridiculous.

I did Retake Weathertop with my cappy a week ago, on lvl, and had no issues whatsover. I'm new to the captain class. Sorry you had issues - did u get to read the guides yet?

[Replica]

I did Retake Weathertop with my cappy a week ago, on lvl, and had no issues whatsover. I'm new to the captain class. Sorry you had issues - did u get to read the guides yet?

Hmmm I don't recall this quest being an issue for me.

I have only done this quest twice before, more than a year ago too. I do not know the ends and outs of the quest, but I tried learning by myself.
I try and stay away from guides until I am left no other choice, which is now.

thanks.

[Koboldfodder]

Again, Captains are the weak-link class in this game. It's the game mechanics that gimped the class. On paper, Captains looked great. People were really interested in the class when they released the info, in fact they were probably number two right behind Hunters.

Hunters are a joy to play in this game, the way combat works and the overall mechanics of the game give synergy to Hunters and LOTRO.

Captains are pretty much the opposite. While it is fun to play the class, there is no real synergy with the Captains abilities and the game mechanics.

Here are some examples.

LOTRO is a percentage based game. Initially, they listed the percentages. 1% or 2%, etc...then they realized that this created a big road block for future development. You could never get over 100%, so the only thing to do was have odd 12.4% type of numbers (and there were). They changed it to an actual number, but the percentage is still there (just mouse over your stats and stuff).

Classes that have top damage, or top healing or top tanking....the number/percentage thing works. A minstrel can have a low percentage increase to a high yield healing skill and there is a significant increase.

For Captains, everything is low. Low healing, low numbers, etc. You can get all your little legacies, traits, and count up the percentages....and then when you add them to a skill that is low to begin with, it's not that big of an increase when you take into account mob damage.

Valiant strike is a perfect example. Up all the percentages, get your valiant strike armor and legacies and you do about 30 more per heal. That is nothing.

So the healing mechanics favor high number healing, which the Captain does not have. The trait system favors high number healing/damage which the Captain does not have.

See the pattern?

Here is another. Captains are the only class that MUST crit to do well. Well, those crits are on the same percentage system and while that is not as bad as the healing aspect, when you look at the Captain melee cycle you scratch your head.

Captains have two primary melee attacks that are not affected by the battle ready stat. The armor increase attack, which we all spam and the bleeding would attack which we all spam. Initially, the cutting attack was a LOWER damage attack in terms of percentage. It still is by the way. They figured you are doing two attacks so there is no need for any increase to the damage. One attack, then another at a lower percentage. Again, factor in the weak percentage system with the already low DPS...

Second, because Captains are a crit based class, there are several things that can happen when you attack and most of them are bad.

-You hit your shout, to enable your battle attacks (In the past, if this missed you were outta luck). But now the fun begins.

On any attack there is a base 10% miss with any skill (again, percentages). All classes are like this with attacks, so no real difference.

-You can miss your attack
-You can get blocked
-You can get parried
-You can get evaded
-You can hit for normal damage.

All of those things are bad if you are a Captain. You dont want any of them to happen ever. No class does, but more so with the Captain because you are a CRIT based class. Factor those things in with a lousy crit percentage system and you can get some long fights.

No other class is so reliant on one random aspect.

Here are some more. Captains have a lot of skills that branch out in different areas but never truly mesh well other than the group heal + rally cry cooldown legacy (this works well).

You have an aggro mark skill, yet no AOE aggro skill and you lack the ability to use even a medium shield. Sure you CAN tank, but you are a very weak tank especially with adds. Okay, so you are the off tank. That works.

But you lack the defensive skills that the Wardens/Guardians have that make those classes shine as tanks. They have skills that mesh with their defensive abilites and make them better. Captains dont. You can count that armor increase as one, but when you compare that to a heavy shield with it's block skill.....there is really no comparison.

I have been harping about all this since day one, hoping the class would get changed and it has been changed a lot. We are not as gimp as we were in the day, but still we lag behind all other classes.

I honestly think this game's design is so basic that the whole jack-of-all trades thing does not really work. Mobs are either too weak, or too powerful. When they are too weak, there is no need to get all those skills ready and working in a group because you are plowing through the mobs to the bosses. And when you get to the boss, it is too strong for the Captains lesser abilities to tank/DPS.

The primary job classes are a lot of fun and really work well in this game. Guardians make great tanks, Hunters make great DPS, Minstrels make great healers. Even the two add on classes or Warden and RK totally out class the Captain in the "wow" factor when you compare the tank/heal/DPS abilities. Sure the Captain can do a little bit of everything but in most situations in this game the primary class is what was intended.

Captains do fill a roll though. They are the back up healer and the back up tank. That is ok, but I dont think that is what people wanted out of this class when they first decided on it.

Anyway, I still will play my Captain as my main because despite the weaknesses it can still be fun, but frustrating at times. Hopefully they will lessen the restrictions with class vision, especially considering the RuneKeeper class. That class can not only be the primary healer, but the primary DPS class. Sure, they have to trait one or the other....but how many Captains would love that ability.

[IGolbezI]

^

sorry but you don't demonstrate very much knowledge of your class, no offense meant.

captains are definitely not a crit based class (burgs anyone?). we are better healers than you give us credit.

also, it's odd, I didn't have time to read your whole post. But on a hunch, I 'ctrl+f'-ed and did not find buff in your post at all. very odd. very very odd.

???

and as far as the new raid goes, rallying cry cooldown is no longer where it's at.

I dunno just seems like you're QQing about not being the best at healing or DPSing.

[Trilwych]

Again, Captains are the weak-link class in this game. It's the game mechanics that gimped the class. ..........

I honestly think this game's design is so basic that the whole jack-of-all trades thing does not really work. Mobs are either too weak, or too powerful. When they are too weak, there is no need to get all those skills ready and working in a group because you are plowing through the mobs to the bosses. And when you get to the boss, it is too strong for the Captains lesser abilities to tank/DPS.

.......

Captains do fill a roll though. They are the back up healer and the back up tank. That is ok, but I dont think that is what people wanted out of this class when they first decided on it.

Anyway, I still will play my Captain as my main because despite the weaknesses it can still be fun, but frustrating at times. Hopefully they will lessen the restrictions with class vision, especially considering the RuneKeeper class. That class can not only be the primary healer, but the primary DPS class. Sure, they have to trait one or the other....but how many Captains would love that ability.

Interesting. I'm not sure you understand what hybrid class play is in this case, because you keep obsessing over the term "weakness" or "gimped" without understanding the missing term "support role," even completely omitting "buffer class" as your role description.

The part that really stuck out to me was the bolded section: I would think that anyone rolling a captain, having read the actual class description, understands that a hybrid class is by its very nature a support class. That is its role, and it's not a problem that captains aren't intended to compete directly with other trinity-role classes, and the role description doesn't even fall into the trinity as it is ("buffer"). (I've discussed the problem with hybrid balancing elsewhere , in re italicized section.) As a support class, yes, we shine in groups; note that at least 23 out of 38 of our class skills are group-oriented. We're like the glue of fellowships. And as that support class, it's not uncommon for us to take up emergency off-tanking, healing, while doing DPS all at the same time.

If you can't do the hybrid, time to do something else.

[fbonfilio]

Interesting. I'm not sure you understand what hybrid class play is in this case, because you keep obsessing over the term "weakness" or "gimped" without understanding the missing term "support role," even completely omitting "buffer class" as your role description.

The part that really stuck out to me was the bolded section: I would think that anyone rolling a captain, having read the actual class description, understands that a hybrid class is by its very nature a support class. That is its role, and it's not a problem that captains aren't intended to compete directly with other trinity-role classes, and the role description doesn't even fall into the trinity as it is ("buffer"). (I've discussed the problem with hybrid balancing elsewhere , in re italicized section.) As a support class, yes, we shine in groups; note that at least 23 out of 38 of our class skills are group-oriented. We're like the glue of fellowships. And as that support class, it's not uncommon for us to take up emergency off-tanking, healing, while doing DPS all at the same time.

If you can't do the hybrid, time to do something else.

The last line is the true issue.
If we had high DPS -if we had high healing - all wrapped into one the others would *****. We can do a little of each, and if specced a little better in either one. But we also buff, we buff like no other class can. If you don't like the role of the class, then it is time to move on.

[Freawaru]

But we also buff, we buff like no other class can. If you don't like the role of the class, then it is time to move on.

Precisely. I did the final Moria epic quest yesterday with a group consisting of two hunters, two burglars, and a minstrel. I gave my (almost maxed) crit buff to everyone except the healer, kept a close eye on my IDOME, and we absolutely annihilated the instance. Now, granted, the leader of the group was very experienced and the DPSers were tricked out to the max. I know for a fact, though, that my buffs made it go a lot faster than it would have otherwise.

I know it's sometimes a pain to solo when you're a captain, but the group experience is unparalleled.

[seyahat]

Very strange. So many of my kinmates want to share in the awesomeness of captainhood that I am trying to raise an alt just so there will be room for them. Painful for me to raise anything after enjoying a fully buffed out cappie, but there you go. In any case, if there is any lack of numbers, I ain't seeing it. We are monsters solo, we are always desired in groups, and we are, I believe, the most popular of the three utility classes.

[Larce]

Very strange. So many of my kinmates want to share in the awesomeness of captainhood that I am trying to raise an alt just so there will be room for them. Painful for me to raise anything after enjoying a fully buffed out cappie, but there you go. In any case, if there is any lack of numbers, I ain't seeing it. We are monsters solo, we are always desired in groups, and we are, I believe, the most popular of the three utility classes.

Your server has a high pop of cappies, which is actually unusual tbh.

Some folks just will never understand how awesome the class is "as is". Many reasons for this but whatever, if they can't see it, it's their loss.

[Turimbar]

(...) there is no real synergy with the Captains abilities and the game mechanics. (...)
Classes that have top damage, or top healing or top tanking....the number/percentage thing works (...)

Yes, it definitely looks like captain is not the class for you. You are interested in the "uber me", not the "uber group".

I for one think there is a great sinergy with the captain abilities and the game mechanics. Captains are not the best dps, tank or heal. But they make the best dps, tanks and healers even better. And at the same time, we can off-tank, off-heal and "off-dps" (yes, our dps considered alone is lower). We don't even need to retrait or change instances to do all of that.

What did you want us to be? The best group enhancers PLUS the best dps, best tanks, best healers with no need to retrait? Do you think I-don't-need-anyone-else-god-mode is fun?

[vandyr]

^

on a hunch, I 'ctrl+f'-ed and did not find buff in your post at all. very odd. very very odd.

???

Interesting. I'm not sure you understand what hybrid class play is in this case, because you keep obsessing over the term "weakness" or "gimped" without understanding the missing term "support role," even completely omitting "buffer class" as your role description.

Yes, it definitely looks like captain is not the class for you. You are interested in the "uber me", not the "uber group".

Once again, if any of you actually bothered to read what you're arguing against, the vast majority of the complaints come from outside of group efforts. Why people can't seem to get this through their heads is mind boggling, especially considering how many times its been hammered into the text throughout the multiple pages of all three threads discussing this issue on the front page of the captain forums.

Pretty much everybody has agreed countless times that the captain is an amazing group support class. That's not really the issue. The issue comes from the class' lackluster solo performance. That's been said so many times I can't see how you guys still keep bringing up our group role.

Kobold is right about percentages and how they affect the different classes in this game. Percentage gains on low output skills is still a low output return, and that's just the way it is, and unfortunately, it hits the captain the hardest of any class.

Personally, i think the captain is a great group asset. I find soloing to be slow, sluggish and downright frustrating at times.

[Turimbar]

Once again, if any of you actually bothered to read what you're arguing against, the vast majority of the complaints come from outside of group efforts.
(...)
The issue comes from the class' lackluster solo performance. That's been said so many times I can't see how you guys still keep bringing up our group role.
(...)

Well, I had already stated it elsewhere (ITT) and didn't feel like bringing it up again, but:

Being solo "gimped" (sic) is a good thing IMO. It helps screening the "uber me" people out of the captain class. This way there is a higher percentage of good captains out there and the class gets the good name we have today.

Disclaimer: "gimped" sic'ed up there because it is a matter of perception. The people that see the captain class as being solo gimped tend to be the "uber me" kind of person, looking at the red numbers coming out of mobs, but failing to notice the full green and blue bars after fights with 5 on-level mobs, the ability to do small fellowship size quests alone when other classes can't, etc.

[seyahat]

I know this has been done to death, but I don't see how we are gimped solo. Because most of us can't solo three mans? We gobble up every solo quest in the game and, in general, do so more easily than just about every class (wardens being the solo uberfest to which no other class can compare). Much angst, but I don't see the cause.

[Larce]

I'm in the group that doesn't understand these "we suck solo" statements. I find myself performing better on my captain doing solo content, killing bosses, and having fun versus any other class I have tried out. I even have a high level hunter and I don't feel as "safe" when playing him versus my captain.

Sure the hunter may have range, dps, damage, but when in a pinch they fail other then running away, where my captain can stay and fight....

So I dunno what the deal is.... maybe it really is how you play the class.

[fbonfilio]

I agree with Larce, sure my Warden can "solo" a lot of things. BUT taking 20 mins do complete something because I kill so slow with the Warden does not make him a FAST soloer. I kill much faster on my Captain and can survive almost as much as my Warden.

To each his own I guess.

[Darmokk]

I have greater difficulty with red quests than with my other characters, that's for sure. Bit the dust again yesterday but at least the quest went through.