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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post

    You both claim my experience doesn't matter as you tell me about your experiences. lol...
    Not all experiences are indeed created equal.

    You concede you have "subpar gear," and a look at your character panel indicates you most likely are not even ready to do stuff like Orthanc T2 Shadow (most top raiding Hunters have 2400-plus Agility; you have somewhere in the 1800s). So I would safely guess Vodomir and I have grouped with more elite Hunters than you have grouped with elite Champions. So whereas we have a good idea of how a good DPS Champion compare to a good DPS Hunter, you likely do not.
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  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    (Also, completely irrelevant information: One thing that's bothered me and amused me though is the apparent thought that heartseeker is a high dps skill? And that it should be used at the BEGINNING of a rotation? Heartseeker is probably the worst skill on our entire list. Swift Bow EASILY does the damage of Heartseeker and surpasses it every single time if all three hits are devastates. If any champs roll a hunter, DON'T use heartseeker at the beginning of your rotation, it doesn't make any sense. Swift Bow > Blood Arrow > Penetrating Shot is the highest DPS burst you can put out as a hunter for the most part, or starting with blood arrow > pen shots > swift bow to build focus > blood arrow, but it's 'lower' DPS, not any less but lower parses.)
    You claimed you've parsed as high as 8k on a dummy. I merely pointed out that's not possible unless you stopped after 1 Heart Seeker.
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    You sure love to spin not being able to keep up on your own.
    And you sure like to troll a lot.

    I doubt you even know what a Revealing Mark is.
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  4. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    And you sure like to troll a lot.

    I doubt you even know what a Revealing Mark is.
    Troll? You were the one that pointed out that you can't keep up on your own. Revealing mark is clearly a buff from another character. A buff that you need in order to keep up.

    Also, you bring up raids like champs even have a chance of keeping up. You brought up ToO. There are not even close to as many tank and spank fights as there are fights with multiple guys that move, fight from range, and stun those close to them. I would love to see you compare your total damage through all of ToO vs a similarly geared hunter. It is the reason I usually do so much damage. I sit at range and never stop shooting. I take out adds, and protect the healers without missing a beat in my shot rotation. Saruman is the only one who makes me move, which is only to get out of clouds. If we are running something like turtle, sure the champ is better.
    Last edited by Cirgellon; Sep 05 2012 at 11:35 AM.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    Troll? You were the one that pointed out that you can't keep up on your own. Revealing mark is clearly a buff from another character. A buff that you need in order to keep up.

    Also, you bring up raids like champs even have a chance of keeping up. You brought up ToO. There are not even close to as many tank and spank fights as there are fights with multiple guys that move, fight from range, and stun those close to them. I would love to see you compare your total damage through all of ToO vs a similarly geared hunter. It is the reason I usually do so much damage. I sit at range and never stop shooting. I take out adds, and protect the healers without missing a beat in my shot rotation. Saruman is the only one who makes me move, which is only to get out of clouds. If we are running something like turtle, sure the champ is better.
    No Champion is arguing that we out-DPS Hunters in a situation where melees cannot continuously DPS. That is absurd. (But on the same token, if you resolve the "who does more DPS?" issue on ranged fights, then even Ministrels will do more DPS then Champions.)

    Rather, the original argument that some Hunters seem to be making is that Hunters will out-DPS Champions in ALL circumstances, including when melees can continuously DPS (or DPS for the same amount of time ranged can) such as the Orthanc Acid wing before adds or the Fire & Frost wing before the first giant is felled.

    And this is the original claim that both Vodomir and I are challenging. Moreover, note that our claims are far more cautious then the Hunters' claims. I have said I am still not sure who does more; and Vodomir says Champions and Hunters do about equal. In contrast, several Hunters have said Hunters "definitely" do more or used similar language. So the burden is on them to prove their point. And whereas Vodomir and I have linked to or referred to actual screen-shotted parses, all the Hunters have come up with are outrageous, fantastic claims like the 3k unbuffed parse on the dummies.
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  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    In contrast, several Hunters have said Hunters "definitely" do more or used similar language. So the burden is on them to prove their point.
    Yeah, good luck with that.
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  7. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    No Champion is arguing that we out-DPS Hunters in a situation where melees cannot continuously DPS. That is absurd. (But on the same token, if you resolve the "who does more DPS?" issue on ranged fights, then even Ministrels will do more DPS then Champions.)

    Rather, the original argument that some Hunters seem to be making is that Hunters will out-DPS Champions in ALL circumstances, including when melees can continuously DPS (or DPS for the same amount of time ranged can) such as the Orthanc Acid wing before adds or the Fire & Frost wing before the first giant is felled.

    And this is the original claim that both Vodomir and I are challenging. Moreover, note that our claims are far more cautious then the Hunters' claims. I have said I am still not sure who does more; and Vodomir says Champions and Hunters do about equal. In contrast, several Hunters have said Hunters "definitely" do more or used similar language. So the burden is on them to prove their point. And whereas Vodomir and I have linked to or referred to actual screen-shotted parses, all the Hunters have come up with are outrageous, fantastic claims like the 3k unbuffed parse on the dummies.
    Then your argument isn't with me. I haven't made, or defended, any of those claims.

  8. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    Lendas, you are just a really bad hunter. Learn to play the class and most of your problems will go away.

    Also, lol @ the champ claiming he can parse higher than an individual if he gets help from another... How do you not see the silliness of that argument? My hunter can do much better with with a LM feeding him power than he does on his own. Giving you moral isn't a buff? LOL.... It is a huge buff and it is proof that you have to be more of a burden to others in order to keep up.
    Please, do create awesome parse - no need to post it here, doubt anyone cares more than about "you are bad hunter" quality opinions. Then try to make your awesome parse remain awesome for more than 2 minutes without popping store pots. Still with me? Great. Now continue with your awesome parse to the land of 4-5 minutes.

    After doing that and actually noticing the difference in numbers that is otherwise greatly mitigated by power regen coming from your group, you might finally stop crying about Champ using healer to CBR dummyparse.

    Oh, by the way, Blue set reduces BA cd by 4 seconds. 300 second parse = 50-ish BA, 15k Morale down the drain. Getting interesting
    Last edited by Ferthcott; Sep 05 2012 at 12:31 PM.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    Troll? You were the one that pointed out that you can't keep up on your own. Revealing mark is clearly a buff from another character. A buff that you need in order to keep up.
    So you as a hunter do not need a loremaster or at least a Captain to keep up with your power costs? So how much of a burden are you to the group? I'd love to see those 5 minute parses on a dummy without being fed power by external sources - good luck with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    Also, you bring up raids like champs even have a chance of keeping up. You brought up ToO. There are not even close to as many tank and spank fights as there are fights with multiple guys that move, fight from range, and stun those close to them.
    Have you ever been to ToO? At first I can more than just keep up with hunters in ToO. And secondly, lets have a look at the encounters:

    ID1: Tank and Spank - no stuns
    ID2: Tank and Spank - no stuns
    ID3: Tank and Spank - no stuns
    ID4: Mostly Tank and Spank, some movement involved; I still parse higher than any hunter parse I have seen from that fight
    ID5: Lots of Movement, but also lots of AoE involved - hunters stand no chance here

    If you refer to trash ... that's also AoE, hunters will not compete either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    I would love to see you compare your total damage through all of ToO vs a similarly geared hunter.
    Parsing all of ToO will leave no chance to hunters, as Trash and Saruman fight involve loads of AoE where Hunters will simply not put up with Champs. I don't see your point here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    If we are running something like turtle, sure the champ is better.
    So you admit that Champ does more ST DPS?
    Last edited by Vodomir; Sep 05 2012 at 01:18 PM.
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
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  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    You fail to realize that you are showing that you have to be more of a burden to other classes in order to keep up. You can't do it by yourself. You also never posted anything showing that you could put up those numbers... So...
    No, I'm keeping myself up via DPS if there's a Revealing mark on the boss. And as already pointed out several times ... how do you keep your power up if you go all-out on DPS?

    Btw. I have posted several parses from ToO, a dummy parse and also pointed you to the Champ forums where you can find 2.500+ DPS parses from CBR-Champs. I haven't seen anything from hunters yet. So ...
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
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  11. #161
    I wasn't the one claiming that I needed a second player to beat hunters dummy parses. That was you champs. Why the talk of power? I have enough power for a two minure parse. Especially right now with the lower agility. I have a really high ICPR and skillsthat also help with this. I have yet to see a hunter make up random numbers and claim that is what they would be doing with the help of others... Lol, silly champs and their lack of logic...

    What is this firthcott guy even going on about? Who does 5+ minute dummy parses? Where did that even come from?

    Vodomir hasn't even run ToO.

  12. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    By the way, I still would really like to see what top Hunters can do in a 60-90 second, period. Basically, the 2300-plus parses that Vodomir and I have posted in the Champ forum would be 2700-plus with CBR (but it's harder to get those CBR parses, since we need someone to heal us). And we were both lacking the CB set from PvP at the time of those parses, so basically 2800-plus.

    Is there a single Hunter who can achieve 2800-plus? Someone claimed he's seen a 3k dummy parse with no external buffs. I'd like to see it.
    This is where that argument started. Now who wants to explain the 5+ minute talk and the hunters need for additional people in this 60-90 seconds? You guys just come to troll and argue. You don't even read the conversation.

  13. #163
    Right... who does dummy parses for anything that resembles actual... fights. Because context-less dps for 1m means.. much. So what, are we suddenly reducing "dps capability" to 90s so everything looks nicer WHILE CBR is still "not allowed"? Don't even make me laugh with "high ICPR". It kinda shows where we are in numbers and rotations But frankly, just keep on acting like 634th version of "what you meant" is anything interesting enough for people to guess it.

    /thread (at least part of meta-discussion about discussion and what who posted and why)

  14. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferthcott View Post
    Right... who does dummy parses for anything that resembles actual... fights. Because context-less dps for 1m means.. much. Don't even make me laugh with "high ICPR". It kinda shows where we are in numbers and rotations But frankly, just keep on acting like 634th version of "what you meant" is anything interesting enough for people to guess it.

    /thread (at least part of meta-discussion about discussion and what who posted and why)
    You do realize that this is exactly what I have been arguing, right? What a funny individual you are.

  15. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    Vodomir hasn't even run ToO.

    Yes, I think that gives pretty good idea who is funny here

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    I wasn't the one claiming that I needed a second player to beat hunters dummy parses. That was you champs.
    Honestly, I haven't even seen Hunter parses beating non-CBR parses. And CBR works very well in 1-minute-of-glory-parses, too. So CBR-parses on dummies are about as valid as hunter parses in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    Why the talk of power?
    Because you started the talk of morale. Champ's morale in a CBR parse lasts as long as a hunter's power pool. I've seen hunters parse for 45 seconds, claiming they could only parse that long, because their DPS took a nose-dive after that point due to empty power issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    I have enough power for a two minure parse. Especially right now with the lower agility.
    You might have the power and ICPR for a two minute parse, but than on the other hand (due to low agility, mastery and crit) you don't have the DPS to even contribute to this topic. Of course I could stack morale and throw bubbles to make CBR work without a healer for two minutes ... but then again, what use would that be for a DPS parse? You really start to sound funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    I have a really high ICPR and skillsthat also help with this.
    And on the other hand you have a reallly low base DPS to begin with and using power regen skills in your rotation will kill your DPS even more. Just grab a parser and show me that 2 minute parse of sillyness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    I have yet to see a hunter make up random numbers...
    Well, I'll show you one (actually copied from this very thread):

    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    I've seen numbers up to 2500 dps from other hunters over a minute from combatanalysis, without burn hot or any buffs, and claims of higher from others. I think someone posted a screenshot of doing over 3000 DPS over a minute on the forums here a while back actually.
    As far as I can tell, this guy was the first one to make up random numbers. Get your perspective right, Sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    What is this firthcott guy even going on about? Who does 5+ minute dummy parses? Where did that even come from?
    Because every single meaningful fight where DPS counts is substantially longer than that 1 minute of glory that hunters all-out-DPS lasts without external help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    Vodomir hasn't even run ToO.
    I have beaten all Challenge Modes in ToO, how bout you? Speaking of "fights with multiple guys that move, fight from range, and stun those close to them" doesn't really make the impression that you saw a whole lot of Orthanc. Maybe you can point to those fights and how there are more of them than tank and spank kind of fights?
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
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  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    I wasn't the one claiming that I needed a second player to beat hunters dummy parses. .
    No one claimed he needs a second player to beat actually existent hunter parses. Champ parses in the Champ DPS thread should take care of that. What Miretocot actually 'claimed' was that he'd need a healer to beat made up hunter parses (the non existent ones of 3k+ DPS, or even 2.500 DPS fully unbuffed). Some reading comprehension would save you a lot of trouble.
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
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  18. #168
    Lol, another guy who doesn't even know what he is arguing. I really like when he chops a sentence in half, takes that half out of context, then claims he is onto something. What a bunch of clowns.

  19. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Vodomir View Post
    No one claimed he needs a second player to beat actually existent hunter parses. Champ parses in the Champ DPS thread should take care of that. What Miretocot actually 'claimed' was that he'd need a healer to beat made up hunter parses (the non existent ones of 3k+ DPS, or even 2.500 DPS fully unbuffed). Some reading comprehension would save you a lot of trouble.
    His made up numbers weren't even over 3k. I just quoted the post again. Are you being serious?

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    Lol, another guy who doesn't even know what he is arguing. I really like when he chops a sentence in half, takes that half out of context, then claims he is onto something. What a bunch of clowns.
    Out of interest, would you be so kind and point me to where I actually took your words out of context? I merely chopped your texts in half to make clear which parts of your text I am actually adressing.
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
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  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    His made up numbers weren't even over 3k. I just quoted the post again. Are you being serious?
    No, but hunter's made up numbers started at 2.500 DPS, unless you can point to parses that actually show hunters doing 2.5k DPS over 1 minute without any buffs. You refuse to see that Champs presented their numbers while hunters only go on about how they are without a doubt THE superior DPS class and make up wild number like 3k+ DPS, but actually don't have any parse to show that superiority.
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
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  22. #172
    So...original topic was complaining about other classes out-DPSing Hunters from a while back.

    Lendas pulls the ole Necro-Thread.

    Someone claims they are the super-DPS of everything.

    Champs come in the claim that, yeah, Champs out DPS Hunters, even post nifty screen shots of parses.

    Now we just need some Burglars and RKs to do the same, thus proving the point of the OP.

    Hunters are about 3rd or 4th in DPS.
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  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodomir View Post
    Sorry to say that, but you are painting the picture way darker than it is. Hunters are in no way bad off. They are still in an excellent spot DPS wise (as they have always been; and it's always been this way, as the hunter was never in an undisputed 1st place ... DPS of hunters/champs was always to close to make out a clear winner). No need to cry doom over your class.
    do you deny any of my claims? (other than the 3rd dps spot...because that all is in retrospec to other people individually)

  24. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Vodomir View Post

    I have yet to see a Hunter come close to my Champ's single target DPS. See my pics above (in answer to Yelk's post) and show me what you've got.


    There's mine. First attempt ever and higher will do more if insisted but just to give an idea. What I'm curious is how you did 150% more attacks then me nearly with a 2 hander, flurry or not that's crazy. Nice parse though.
    Last edited by YesMaam; Sep 05 2012 at 05:05 PM.
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  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post


    While not much higher 2400+ at 58 seconds let off gas to hit screenshot ended close to 2200 after out of combat at 1 min 02. Was my first attempt may try a few more times for fun but in ToO I look forward to mind blowing there I won't be able to do much better. I'm impressed by your parse though.
    That's what I'm saying, both Hunters and Champs are top notch DPS and the difference is too small to make out a clear winner, without any doubt. In raids Champs will for sure have CBR running to further improve their DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    You have allot more attacks then me were you dual wielding or what.
    Yes, I am dual wielding, another topic I am constantly fighting about, as most people will just say "2H does more DMG, no matter what", while my numbers show that DW is actually more than competitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    I have a parry buff cause that dumb captain to my left crit buff me after my parse ended when I was taking more screenshots. I had a kinny log in and give me a parry buff lol. The captain is now on my ignore list... although im sure he thought he was doing my a favor.
    Don't worry the parry buff ... it doesn't do anything for your DPS and I do not really have you on the list of people trying to cheat on others
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
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