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  1. #126
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    Just to add: All of my parses could still be significantly improved if I could get myself around to grinding out 2 more pieces of the Threkkappi Set. This would give me an additional 14% of Controlled Burn Damage for the first 1:15 min of a fight, which is huge, especially for short duration fights (which are more or less common in Orthanc).

    I guess it's fair to say that it indeed is far more common for a hunter to outdps a Champ if you look at average champs/hunters or even good champs/hunters. But if we are talking about excellent champs/hunters, I just can't see Hunters to be the clear winners - it all comes down to player skill, crit luck and whether the fight in questions favours ranged over melee or not.
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
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  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodomir View Post

    I guess it's fair to say that it indeed is far more common for a hunter to outdps a Champ if you look at average champs/hunters or even good champs/hunters. But if we are talking about excellent champs/hunters, I just can't see Hunters to be the clear winners...
    Yeah, this is what I preach to those on my server who claim "Champions are NOT single-target DPS-ers," and that Hunters and even RKs and Burglars out-DPS us (LOL).

    It's really the sub-optimally geared/traited Champions that give us bad names. Basically every raiding Hunter runs around in 2400-plus Agility and 9k-plus Crit as they should; but how many Champions are really built properly as single-target DPS-ers? I am in an RP server, so there are fewer hardcore raiding kins; and among the Champions I see, I have not seen a single one that even has over 8k Crit (in fact, most of these raiding Champs over-load Might to 2300-2400 but run on 6-7k Crit)!
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  3. #128
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    By the way, I still would really like to see what top Hunters can do in a 60-90 second, period. Basically, the 2300-plus parses that Vodomir and I have posted in the Champ forum would be 2700-plus with CBR (but it's harder to get those CBR parses, since we need someone to heal us). And we were both lacking the CB set from PvP at the time of those parses, so basically 2800-plus.

    Is there a single Hunter who can achieve 2800-plus? Someone claimed he's seen a 3k dummy parse with no external buffs. I'd like to see it.
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  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam
    There is not a class in the game that can out DPS a hunter who knows what hes doing and has the best gear. Feel free to link any parse from any player anywhere in the game in any fight and I will beat it with a FRAPS video. Even aoe pulls over champs with RoA traits in many circumstances with proper maxed out melee LI with low cut bleeds.
    Dear Mr. Yelk,

    I know this is quoted from another thread, but I'd love to see that fraps video of yours, where you end a full phase of the Saruman fight with 4.3k+ DPS, as you claim to outdps Champs in AoE pulls.

    I'll be waiting.
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
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  5. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    By the way, I still would really like to see what top Hunters can do in a 60-90 second, period. Basically, the 2300-plus parses that Vodomir and I have posted in the Champ forum would be 2700-plus with CBR (but it's harder to get those CBR parses, since we need someone to heal us). And we were both lacking the CB set from PvP at the time of those parses, so basically 2800-plus.

    Is there a single Hunter who can achieve 2800-plus? Someone claimed he's seen a 3k dummy parse with no external buffs. I'd like to see it.
    Can I just point out that you completely made up numbets and asked for others to do better than made up numbers?

    My hunter does X, which woupl be Y if I did A and equiped B... That pretty much brings the argument right back to "prove it".

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    Can I just point out that you completely made up numbets and asked for others to do better than made up numbers?

    My hunter does X, which woupl be Y if I did A and equiped B... That pretty much brings the argument right back to "prove it".
    No, they are absolutely not "made up" numbers. We know precisely how much DPS both CBR and the CB bonus from the PvP set add to your DPS. The problem with actually parsing with CBR is that--unlike other classes' major DPS boosting skills--we need a healer to heal us. Hence, it is difficult to get the screenshot of our maximum dummy DPS.

    But if you must have an actual, non-extrapolated DPS figure, there is a screenshot of a Champion doing around 2700 (though he had Fight On! as well).
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  7. #132
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    Before people jump all over me, let me just clarify my position. I am not saying Champions definitely out-DPS Hunters. I simply do not know, though I have my suspicions. And hence, I am asking to see their dummy DPS parses--especially since someone gave the seemingly ridiculous number of 3000.

    What I am saying is that Champion single-target DPS is greatly under-estimated largely because most Champions--even elite raiding kin Champions--do not necessarily gear themselves to single-target DPS, whereas every rival raiding Hunter and Burglar will. So you will always have more raiding Hunters (or possibly even Burglars, if they have the Unseen set) doing more single-target DPS than Champions, which leads to the general impression that Champions cannot single-target DPS. (For good laughs, even though I always get Blade Brother over our Hunters in our own kin raids, the vast majority of PUG Captains I group with for Foundry or Skirmish raids will actually Blade Brother the Hunter instead--no matter how mediocre their equipment is, because "Hunters are the top DPS".)
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  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    Can I just point out that you completely made up numbets and asked for others to do better than made up numbers?

    My hunter does X, which woupl be Y if I did A and equiped B... That pretty much brings the argument right back to "prove it".
    Can I just point you to the Champion DPS thread? There are already parses of CBR champs who parse around 2.500 DPS (pretty sure I could probably break those numbers, if I loaded up on buffs and used CBR like they did) ... that's more than I was able to find on the Hunters forums, besides unbacked claims of "someone parsing 3k DPS on a dummy", so it's still up to the Hunters to "prove it".

    Let's not forget to mention that Hunters tend to parse on dummies with dp/shop buff, agi food, hope token, battle lore etc. whereas Miretocot and I parse without that stuff.

    I'll just lean back and wait for Yelk's mind blowing videos, where he totally destroys my numbers (and not by means of bringing more burgs to increase his DPS) - if he gets it done, more power to him and the hunter community. He's the one who put up the challenge, so here I am accepting his challenge.
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
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  9. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Vodomir View Post
    Can I just point you to the Champion DPS thread? There are already parses of CBR champs who parse around 2.500 DPS (pretty sure I could probably break those numbers, if I loaded up on buffs and used CBR like they did) ... that's more than I was able to find on the Hunters forums, besides unbacked claims of "someone parsing 3k DPS on a dummy", so it's still up to the Hunters to "prove it".

    Let's not forget to mention that Hunters tend to parse on dummies with dp/shop buff, agi food, hope token, battle lore etc. whereas Miretocot and I parse without that stuff.

    I'll just lean back and wait for Yelk's mind blowing videos, where he totally destroys my numbers (and not by means of bringing more burgs to increase his DPS) - if he gets it done, more power to him and the hunter community. He's the one who put up the challenge, so here I am accepting his challenge.
    Well, I honestly don't care about the argument. I was just pointing out that he showed one number, then came with an imaginary number based on the things he could have done. Whe that could be true, it is a terrible argument tactic.

    The response is that it takes multiple people for a champ to use their high dps skill, which also isn't a very good argument for who the single best is. The hunter can get higher dps with others helping too.

    The thing is, I don't even have great gear. With sub par end game gear, I still don't see others out single target dps'ing me and the other hunters.You can really see it in smaller groups. Maybe I am playing with bad players, or maybe that isn't the actual role the others fill in the groups. Either way, the hunter is the one doing the greatest single target dps in group content. That is their role, so I am happy with it. I don't pvp, so I can't say what people build for there. If you are building your champ for single target dps, you aren't maxing your characters potential in groups.

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    Well, I honestly don't care about the argument. I was just pointing out that he showed one number, then came with an imaginary number based on the things he could have done. Whe that could be true, it is a terrible argument tactic.
    Well, his numbers are at least mathematically comprehensible and in no way as made up as the ominous 3k that some hunter presumably parsed WITHOUT any buffs (never seen any hunter parses without buffs though). I still agree that working on numbers that have not been backed up is a poor argument tacitc. Fortunately we already have those parses in the Champion DPS thread, so the numbers are not exactly "made up".

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    The response is that it takes multiple people for a champ to use their high dps skill, which also isn't a very good argument for who the single best is. The hunter can get higher dps with others helping too.
    It doesn't really take multiple people, all it takes is a healer, which is always present in every raid. And forgive me, but a hunter would also be doing next to no DPS without a healer in the raid/group ... as dead hunters don't deal much damage at all. Your argument is kind of invalid here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    The thing is, I don't even have great gear. With sub par end game gear, I still don't see others out single target dps'ing me and the other hunters.You can really see it in smaller groups.
    Using your personal experience alone to back up claims as "Hunter's Single Target DPS is best" is a poor argument tactic as well. This is only your personal experience and yours alone. I run loads of small group content and I have never been outdps'ed by any hunter (or any other class). That's how personal experience can vary. And I've been playing along very experienced hunters with fully decked out toons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    Maybe I am playing with bad players, or maybe that isn't the actual role the others fill in the groups.
    I guess the latter holds true for most Champs out there. There are not that many Champs out there, who really build for maximum (ST) DPS and even those who aim for it may not always be fully decked out - the ones that are often play in excellent kins and don't PUG that much, so chances are you never met a Champ really excelling at Single Target DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    Either way, the hunter is the one doing the greatest single target dps in group content. That is their role, so I am happy with it.
    This is only a bold statement currently not backed up by any evidence. If you asked me, it ends up in a wash if you compare top champs vs. top hunters vs. top burglars ... don't know much about RK but my gut feeling tells me that they are not quite there.

    Simply saying "That is their role" doesn't really help your case either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    If you are building your champ for single target dps, you aren't maxing your characters potential in groups.
    Yes I am, as building for max ST DPS is not really different than building for max AoE DPS ... you just gotta know how to get the most AoE out of your Fervour build. And no matter what the group situation is, the longer and moer challenging fights will always be ST fights, whereas trash pulls can mostly be facerolled with any kind of group make-up, no AoE necessary. So being strong in the ST DPS department benefits the group more than building for ardour.
    Last edited by Vodomir; Sep 04 2012 at 01:15 PM.
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  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    Well, I honestly don't care about the argument. I was just pointing out that he showed one number, then came with an imaginary number based on the things he could have done. Whe that could be true, it is a terrible argument tactic.
    I've already addressed this, but to reiterate: We have precise numbers on how much CBR and the PvP set CB bonus add to your overall DPS.

    Moreover, I've also pointed to other actual parses out there. In contrast, I've honestly never even heard of anything like a 3k, unbuffed dummy parse on any class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    W
    The response is that it takes multiple people for a champ to use their high dps skill, which also isn't a very good argument for who the single best is. The hunter can get higher dps with others helping too.
    No, the healer is not directly adding to my DPS via buff or de-buff on the target.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    W
    The thing is, I don't even have great gear. With sub par end game gear, I still don't see others out single target dps'ing me and the other hunters.
    I probably have run with a lot more good Hunters than you have run with good Champions, and I've seen no one who can out-DPS me in anything over 45-50 second fight where melees can continuously DPS. Your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    W
    Either way, the hunter is the one doing the greatest single target dps in group content. That is their role, so I am happy with it. I don't pvp, so I can't say what people build for there.
    An assertion without any empirical evidence or deductive reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    W
    If you are building your champ for single target dps, you aren't maxing your characters potential in groups.
    This involves a mis-understanding on several levels.

    First, as has been demonstrated in the Champion forum, you will lose virtually no AOE DPS if you build for single-target DPS; but you lose massive single-target DPS if you build for AOE DPS.

    Second, even if an AOE build does let you do significantly more AOE DPS than a single-target build, why would you build for raid content that is rarer and easier? More Orthanc boss content is single-target-oriented!
    Last edited by Miretocot; Sep 04 2012 at 01:26 PM.
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  12. #137
    I'm not arguing the parses. I didn't back any other hunters claim. Why are you both bringing this up? If you have the numbers, post them. That isn't how it was presented. You came with an argument that is the same as the guy you are complaining to me about.

    One of you claims the healer isn't a direct buff, while giving you moral is the best buff in the game. The other claims the hunter gets healed in raids well I also get a ton of other buffs in raids. My raid dps is much different than my target dummy dps...

    You both claim my experience doesn't matter as you tell me about your experiences. lol...

    You both seem confused though. I'm not at all arguing parsed numbers. I gave my opinion of the argument. It wasn't presented as facts... I bet less than one percent of players could ever get near the top numbers that are posted. They are also very situational and don't represent what is really happening. As was pointed out, I don't raid without buffs on a single immobile target that can't fight back. There are tons of different situations that this doesn't take into account. These aren't proving anything with facts either. What if the top dpsing hunter and chamo haven't posted their numbers? Are you positive both sides have their max potential represented? Your numbers are no more scientific than my experience.

    I would love to run some smaller group instances with one of these amazing champs. What server do you each play on?
    Last edited by Cirgellon; Sep 04 2012 at 01:48 PM.

  13. #138
    Anyone complaining Champs need healer to dummy parse in CB and therefore it is not "fair" to compare with that should consider what exactly lack of group does to power management (yes, Hunters, not Champs - and no, store power pots are not allowed) - and how it is connected to Hunter super-duper CAs being usually - and conveniently - around 1-2 minutes. Basically: if you have issues against parses with healer, have fun with cute numbers becoming less cute with each PO/SotE.

  14. #139
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    big claps to the champ who posted the numbers.

    honestly those who say Hunter are top DPS are lying or are ignorant.

    its been proven time and time and time again that champs and burgs do more DPS and have better survival AND have better DPS sustainablility (mostly champs, burgs having power issues adressed in RoR)



    lets face it: in the grand scheme of things, we have the lowest survival, worst threat management, 3rd best DPS, and least group utility.


    we ARE the most usless class in LOTRO right now....




    try to say we dont have worst survival
    try to say we can keep top DPS and manage threat to the level of champ/burg
    try and say we are THE TOP dps class.
    try and say that there is ANY CLASS that has worse utility than us.
    (hint, our only effective utility is DPS, CC is joke and gimps our DPS to 0 while we are at it)


    try and name a class that is worse off than Hunter....

    cause all of the above have been proven true.

  15. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    big claps to the champ who posted the numbers.

    honestly those who say Hunter are top DPS are lying or are ignorant.

    its been proven time and time and time again that champs and burgs do more DPS and have better survival AND have better DPS sustainablility (mostly champs, burgs having power issues adressed in RoR)



    lets face it: in the grand scheme of things, we have the lowest survival, worst threat management, 3rd best DPS, and least group utility.


    we ARE the most usless class in LOTRO right now....




    try to say we dont have worst survival
    try to say we can keep top DPS and manage threat to the level of champ/burg
    try and say we are THE TOP dps class.
    try and say that there is ANY CLASS that has worse utility than us.
    (hint, our only effective utility is DPS, CC is joke and gimps our DPS to 0 while we are at it)


    try and name a class that is worse off than Hunter....

    cause all of the above have been proven true.
    It sounds to me like you need a new class. You don't seem to be good at playing a hunter. Unless you are playing solo, you should have no problem surviving longer than RKs and minis. I never go down before them. Also, what class is doing other stuff, like CC, while maintaini.g their dps? That doesn't even make sense.

    But, why cry about it? There are a lot of classes to choose from

  16. #141
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    I'm not continuing to debate things at the moment, because I myself am not a hunter of a high enough caliber (lacking T2 gear of any kind except 1st age weapon) to prove/give real numbers of the maximum DPS a hunter can demonstrate, but I'm sure there are plenty out there who are up to the same levels of gear as the champions posting that could parse even higher.

    (Also, completely irrelevant information: One thing that's bothered me and amused me though is the apparent thought that heartseeker is a high dps skill? And that it should be used at the BEGINNING of a rotation? Heartseeker is probably the worst skill on our entire list. Swift Bow EASILY does the damage of Heartseeker and surpasses it every single time if all three hits are devastates. If any champs roll a hunter, DON'T use heartseeker at the beginning of your rotation, it doesn't make any sense. Swift Bow > Blood Arrow > Penetrating Shot is the highest DPS burst you can put out as a hunter for the most part, or starting with blood arrow > pen shots > swift bow to build focus > blood arrow, but it's 'lower' DPS, not any less but lower parses.)
    Last edited by Kajil; Sep 04 2012 at 07:31 PM.
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  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    It sounds to me like you need a new class. You don't seem to be good at playing a hunter. Unless you are playing solo, you should have no problem surviving longer than RKs and minis. I never go down before them. Also, what class is doing other stuff, like CC, while maintaini.g their dps? That doesn't even make sense.

    But, why cry about it? There are a lot of classes to choose from
    in the face of all evidence to the contrary to your view, you reject reality and subsitute your own.

    its obvious you dont have a hunter, otherwise you would know that if we want "real" effective/sustainable CC we need to trait yellow, which gimps our DPS to LOL levels.

    and that all our CC skills have inductions, or cost huge focus, both reduce our damage output considerably, while returing verry little.



    also MEGA LOLZ at the "hunter survives better than minis and RKs...." have you gotten the news of hunters agrro problems and RK/MINI oh-&&&& skills that allow them to heal themselves for boatloads?



    you sir... like many a ongburz iron-troll before you.... have resorted to flailing and thorwing rubbish around. seen it all before.

    in the face of facts, trolls just lose consistency and wallow around in "well I/OTHERS am better than YOU... L2P" and make up facts to sute their perposes.





    many an enemy of Hunters has been quelled down by the amazing power of hard facts and agreed-upon observations. pretty much our only real effective skill left..


    i wonder if hunters will eventually be banned for making sense?

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    One of you claims the healer isn't a direct buff, while giving you moral is the best buff in the game.
    Healing does not buff our DPS at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    The other claims the hunter gets healed in raids well I also get a ton of other buffs in raids. My raid dps is much different than my target dummy dps...
    You do realise that Champs and any other class get the exact same buffs that hunter do in a raid? There are also certain buffs (e.g. Attack Duration reduction via the Captain's War Cry) that benefit Champs more than Hunters. And Raid DPS is always different from dummy DPS - that holds true for about any class, not just the hunter ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    You both claim my experience doesn't matter as you tell me about your experiences. lol...
    You obviously missed the point of what I was trying to say. I merely pointed out that personal experience is exactly only one thing: personal experience. While your personal experience may be one way, the experience of another person may be the exact opposite without any of those experiences being more or less true than the other. That's why personal experience doesn't really make a point at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    As was pointed out, I don't raid without buffs on a single immobile target that can't fight back. There are tons of different situations that this doesn't take into account. These aren't proving anything with facts either. What if the top dpsing hunter and chamo haven't posted their numbers? Are you positive both sides have their max potential represented? Your numbers are no more scientific than my experience.
    That's why I also presented actual raid numbers. I am more than confident that we actually have a couple of top notch players of every class on these forums, so there's no 'mythical DPS beast' hiding somewhere in the game who just doesn't know of the existence of these forums. Your experience is not scientific at all by the way, as that may very well be what you experienced. It just doesn't make any statement about the actual DPS ranking of the classes relative to another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    I would love to run some smaller group instances with one of these amazing champs. What server do you each play on?
    I'm afraid that will never happen, as I play on a German server, Morthond [DE] to be more precise.
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  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    big claps to the champ who posted the numbers.

    honestly those who say Hunter are top DPS are lying or are ignorant.

    its been proven time and time and time again that champs and burgs do more DPS and have better survival AND have better DPS sustainablility (mostly champs, burgs having power issues adressed in RoR)



    lets face it: in the grand scheme of things, we have the lowest survival, worst threat management, 3rd best DPS, and least group utility.


    we ARE the most usless class in LOTRO right now....




    try to say we dont have worst survival
    try to say we can keep top DPS and manage threat to the level of champ/burg
    try and say we are THE TOP dps class.
    try and say that there is ANY CLASS that has worse utility than us.
    (hint, our only effective utility is DPS, CC is joke and gimps our DPS to 0 while we are at it)


    try and name a class that is worse off than Hunter....

    cause all of the above have been proven true.
    Sorry to say that, but you are painting the picture way darker than it is. Hunters are in no way bad off. They are still in an excellent spot DPS wise (as they have always been; and it's always been this way, as the hunter was never in an undisputed 1st place ... DPS of hunters/champs was always to close to make out a clear winner). No need to cry doom over your class.
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  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    One thing that's bothered me and amused me though is the apparent thought that heartseeker is a high dps skill? And that it should be used at the BEGINNING of a rotation? Heartseeker is probably the worst skill on our entire list.
    I never actually suggested to use heartseeker for DPS in a regular rotation. But it is still a good start for opening a fight/dummy parse, as the parse on the dummy first starts when Heartseeker actually hits (so the induction time is not included in the parse). Don't know how much HS crits these days, but if it crits for over 10k than that's 10k in second 0 of the fight (so that's 10k DPS after the first second). That's why I asked if the 6-8k DPS burst was measured after opening a parse with HS.
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  21. #146
    Lendas, you are just a really bad hunter. Learn to play the class and most of your problems will go away.

    Also, lol @ the champ claiming he can parse higher than an individual if he gets help from another... How do you not see the silliness of that argument? My hunter can do much better with with a LM feeding him power than he does on his own. Giving you moral isn't a buff? LOL.... It is a huge buff and it is proof that you have to be more of a burden to others in order to keep up.
    Last edited by Cirgellon; Sep 05 2012 at 11:44 AM.

  22. #147
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,411
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    Also, lol @ the champ claiming he can parse higher than an individual if he gets help from another... How do you not see the silliness of that argument? My hunter can do much better with with a LM feeding him power than he does on his own. Giving you moral isn't a buff? LOL.... Okqy, I guess we are done here.
    You still fail to get the point that healers are a given in any raid/group and that I parse higher than the regular hunter in raids, too (and there is a LM to feed power to the Hunters). But you already admitted that you are nowhere near the posted numbers - guess we are indeed done here.

    Edit:
    Sorry, got you mixed up with one of the other posters in this thread. But still, if you are doing such superior DPS, where are your parsed to finally conclude this issue?
    Last edited by Vodomir; Sep 05 2012 at 11:46 AM.
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
    Vodomir - Champion (105) | Shae - Captain (97)
    Twisterhasen - Gwaihir [DE]

  23. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Vodomir View Post
    You still fail to get the point that healers are a given in any raid/group and that I parse higher than the regular hunter in raids, too (and there is a LM to feed power to the Hunters). But you already admitted that you are nowhere near the posted numbers - guess we are indeed done here.
    You fail to realize that you are showing that you have to be more of a burden to other classes in order to keep up. You can't do it by yourself. You also never posted anything showing that you could put up those numbers... So...

  24. #149
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    625
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    You fail to realize that you are showing that you have to be more of a burden to other classes in order to keep up. You can't do it by yourself. You also never posted anything showing that you could put up those numbers... So...
    Good DPS Champions do enough DPS for Captain's Revealing Mark to completely negate the self-dot from CBR; and most raid set-ups have 2 Captains. So how are we being "more of a burden" in a raid?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2521c0000001feb60/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  25. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    Good DPS Champions do enough DPS for Captain's Revealing Mark to completely negate the self-dot from CBR; and most raid set-ups have 2 Captains. So how are we being "more of a burden" in a raid?
    You sure love to spin not being able to keep up on your own.

 

 
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