We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 229
  1. #101
    I've been playing hunter since SoA and the DPS chain where hunter is has never changed. So why does it matter if it was 2 years ago.
    Yelk, Hunter| Rank 15 | Gladden | Leader of Shock and Awe
    Original Challenger of Saruman
    Original Challenger of Gothmog

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffF611 View Post
    Phantom,

    Most of the time? Really? ALL of the time for burg wins my friend. Please take a look at how often it is really up and how it works with multiple mobs like in ToO you spoke of. Combine that with a real reduction in aggro skill and debuffs and Burg is CLEAR winner. Try all you want, hunter is clear loser compared to burg in dps and in utility. You still dont get that it is ALL those other things that make the hunter less desireable.

    And the RK, while not doing the same dps as hunter, provides SO MUCH MORE and without all the aggro issues, I say the argument for RK over hunter is at least one worth thinking about in every instance that does not require a straight dps race. Dps is great, but dps plus all they provide can not be dismissed. Shouldn't this be concerning to hunters in general?

    Please consider all those other little things I spoke to. They cannot be ignored in any thoughtful discussion. It is those little things that matter. The next update is supposed to have provided hunters with some aggro reduction and this could make your argument stand up better if it does what is intended, but for now your argument does not stand.
    RK brings negligible utility outside of Writ of Cold. The Do Not Fall Tos are not good. Their ability to switch to heals is never relevant.

    And if you're telling me you'd rather have a Burg over a Hunter everytime for DPS, I would have to bring up my earlier examples of Shadow and Saruman T2, again. The Hunter, come the end of the fight, will have done significantly more damage than the Burg because of their range. The Hunter is less desirable...where? In what endgame content? I guess Lightning and Acid Wing. So in 2/5 Wings the Hunter while good, isn't as good as a Burg. In the other 3 a Hunter is essential to the process (admittedly so is a Burg, but the two aren't competing for the same function).

    I'm not saying the Hunter is perfect, but is isn't NEARLY as bad or broken as all the crying on the forum makes it out to be. I've considered your points and the only really valid one imo is aggro tools. Meanwhile you're ignoring the problems of Burgs, like power.
    Last edited by PhantomPunkk; Aug 26 2012 at 12:45 PM.
    [CENTER][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0220400000008bdab/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    [/CENTER]

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    112
    In 2/5 endgame instances you admit a utility class not designed to be the ruling dps class is better choice for dps than the class supposed to rule single target dps and you are ok with that?

    The fact that we are having this discussion at all and you and others are not outright laughing at me or calling me a troll is something in and of itself. Hunter dps should be undisputed, if that is your primary task. Or it should at least be another dps class that is our topic.

    As to the RK. You really dont understand what a difference those skills you poo pooed do for your group. The reduction in damage to your group and especially your guard are amazing. Not to mention prerezz and so many more things you dont see in parse numbers. As raid leader, I will choose an equally geared and equally well played RK over a Hunter for EVERY instance other than straight dps races because they just make EVERYONES job easier. Not every instance is about dps only.

    At issue: The Hunter is more and more becoming very limited in their utility. There is more to a successful strat than just dps and hunters bring nothing else. (admitted the buff from gear is something, but VERY few hunters use it.

    Finally-please please please watch the multiburg ToO2 raid videos. They are faster, easier and smoother than ANY with hunters. Please do not forget Burg buffs stack! That means STUPID amounts of dps. Hunter ranged advantage is lost totally when you have 6+ burgs with stacking dps buffs.

    Burg power issues are there, but with multiburg raids, the speed makes this a non-issue, but I do concede that power is the only issue they might face in keeping up with hunter dps.

    PS
    Burg updates report that their power costs have been markedly reduced in Rohan while dps is not effected. hmmmmm
    Last edited by JeffF611; Aug 26 2012 at 02:02 PM.

  4. #104
    Two small things:

    - applying ToO set debuff is also driven by RNG = downtime

    - it is depressing "2/5 of endgame" means effectively 2/5 instances no matter what side you're on - but eh... nevermind, carry on

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    The Internetz
    Posts
    1,930
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombielord View Post
    yes, I can see where this is going ...

    Dear Lendas,

    do you really *really* need to rez a TWO year old thread just to have yet ANOTHER "Hunter's sooooo bad QQ"-Thread?

    This month you've started FIVE threads on the Hunter forum just to complain and rant. If Hunters are so underpowered and "every other class" has better dmg, survivability, morale, power, heals, cc, ranged attacks, melee attacks, underwear with tiny red hearts, stuns, bubbles, set items, stances, class traits, legendary traits and so on and so on ...

    WHY don't you just switch to a champ or mini or maybe even a burg 'if' playing your hunter bothers you that much?
    love class.

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    unknown
    Posts
    1,475
    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    love class.
    Well how about some 'suggestions' on how things should be improved? Seriously ... All you ever come up with is this:

    http://youtu.be/USHHQRodF88

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    70
    If everything that ppl have said about the different nerfs and uselessness and insanely bad position of hunters during the last three years had been true, we would not do any damage at ALL. Hunters are in a very good position right now, if you build for it. We have good power management, good dps, good survivability, even good enough cc, to fill a raidspot and be worthy of it. Yes it is possible for som classes to build for max damge that CAN be higher than us, but it creates more problems than it's worth. If you out-dps someone for one minute, or even five minutes, and then run out of power, or take aggro and die, you will be a useless dps after that. We can out-dps any other class in the long run, AND in the short run, if we spec for it, WITHOUT dying, or running out of power. We need to be good players, and have good equipment, but so does everyone else. Taking melee classes instead? They have their uses, but if the battle consists of more than a few targets, you will want ranged dps. They switch targets with one press of a button, while melee classes has to waste several seconds running to them. RK's shine if the group is facing ONE target with 75-100k morale. Any less and they will be too slow, compared to hunters, and any opponent with more than 300 , and they will start having power problems or aggro problems unless they slow down their dps. So. Max dps is possible to do with many classes, but for general purpose, a hunter is the best a group can have. He is also the best to deal with unexpected situations, like if the mini gets aggro, or if a taget resists a cc. So go ahead and use your parses on the dummies or whatever, and prove that in one specific situation, or against one target, another class CAN do more DPS. Playng the game in groups have proven that hunters are the best single target dps class overall, and are more than sought after in groups everywhere.
    European l100 Hunter
    Roulette l100 Runekeeper
    Fantomet l72 Guardian
    Leader of Knights of the White Tree

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    387
    tl;dr mode, so I'm just replying to first page or so of posts.

    Not sure where this 'hunters are no longer top DPS' is coming from.

    I have a 1st age bow and some pretty basic gear (no T2 jewellery, LLG set, draig earring, Faron set, R8 offhand, and woodbound boots) and I can out-DPS literally anyone else I've ever grouped with, minus one other hunter who is absolutely ridiculous because of his 10k crit rating unbuffed. Yes, I am pretty stacked on agility (sitting on 2452 agility unbuffed), but it's still not something too far out of reach for any other hunter out there. I spent about a week helping my girlfriend get her hunter filled out and she has 2443 unbuffed and occasionally even pulls off of me, by simply having her raid gear and decent jewellery. It is not something difficult to do or reach, as long as you have the ability to do the instances/raids in order to get a little gear, although for whatever reason the average hunter will admittedly never reach that point, but it doesn't mean that there aren't others who won't.

    RKs may be top BURST DPS, but they are definitely NOT top DPS overall. Sure, they hit some ridiculous numbers, but in the grand scheme of things if I'm in a group of 12 and my combatanalysis is telling me I'm single-handedly dealing nearly half of a boss's morale in total damage then that tells me that regardless of the big numbers others are hitting, I'm still putting out the top DPS overall.

    In my experience, hunters are without a doubt top sustained DPS, burglars a close second, followed by RKs and champs, etc.

    However, I do have doubts about the upcoming RoR updates, as far as us being able to maintain this position. The fact that hunters can do ONE thing that no other class can (and only when played to the very best ability) seems to be all we have going for us, but soon in this t-ball field of a game where anyone with any unique function (particularly DPS) is cried at to be nerfed, combined with the fact we have a non-existent dev, I don't see this position standing for very long as we will become simply on-par squishy DPS without a secondary role.

    NOTE: Wow, old thread is OLD. People were complaining about this back THEN? &&&.
    Last edited by Kajil; Aug 28 2012 at 06:54 AM.
    [center]RIP Character signature generator, June 2013.[/center]
    [center]Theiol, Fervar, Turthonn, and Vanka, [i]retired LOTRO[/i]|Croue, Folter, [i]Rift - Shatterbone shard[/i][/center]

  9. #109
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    625
    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    ...if I'm in a group of 12 and my combatanalysis is telling me I'm single-handedly dealing nearly half of a boss's morale in total damage then that tells me that regardless of the big numbers others are hitting, I'm still putting out the top DPS overall.
    NEARLY HALF of a 12-men raid DPS? Is it a Hunter thing to exaggerate so much? Or are you raiding with 11 other Captains?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    In my experience, hunters are without a doubt top sustained DPS, burglars a close second, followed by RKs and champs, etc.
    I would provisionally say you are wrong. The CombatAnalysis numbers I've seen from Orthanc "zerg" fights like Acid Burglar zerg or Fire & Frost Challenge show that Burglars and Champions do 4k-plus; I've yet to seen that from a Hunter or an RK. If you say it's partly because Hunters have to be restrained with DPS at the start due to the lack of effective aggro dump relative to Burglars and Champions, I think the CombatAnalysis numbers on dummies show that you are wrong too. There are Champions who hit 2300-plus without CBR on the dummies; and they would be hitting 26-2700 with CBR on the same parses by simple math (I won't even include Fight On!, as that's too situational). I've yet to see a Hunter or Burglar hit over 2500 (RKs don't parse well on dummies apparently)--though I am open-minded.

    To clarify: I am not saying Champions "without a doubt" out-DPS Hunters or other classes; but I am not sure we have enough evidence to support your conclusion the other way "without a doubt."
    Last edited by Miretocot; Aug 28 2012 at 10:58 AM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2521c0000001feb60/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Istanbul,Turkey
    Posts
    75
    Hunters are best dps class no doubt .you just need to improve your skills simple is that
    .
    Second Marshal Leganthir, Slayer of Muzzard
    Retired from Lotro PvP

  11. #111
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    387
    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    NEARLY HALF of a 12-men raid DPS? Is it a Hunter thing to exaggerate so much? Or are you raiding with 11 other Captains?



    I would provisionally say you are wrong. The CombatAnalysis numbers I've seen from Orthanc "zerg" fights like Acid Burglar zerg or Fire & Frost Challenge show that Burglars and Champions do 4k-plus; I've yet to seen that from a Hunter or an RK. If you say it's partly because Hunters have to be restrained with DPS at the start due to the lack of effective aggro dump relative to Burglars and Champions, I think the CombatAnalysis numbers on dummies show that you are wrong too. There are Champions who hit 2300-plus without CBR on the dummies; and they would be hitting 26-2700 with CBR on the same parses by simple math (I won't even include Fight On!, as that's too situational). I've yet to see a Hunter or Burglar hit over 2500 (RKs don't parse well on dummies apparently)--though I am open-minded.

    To clarify: I am not saying Champions "without a doubt" out-DPS Hunters or other classes; but I am not sure we have enough evidence to support your conclusion the other way "without a doubt."
    Haven't saved any stats, but if I'm doing 400k of the damage in Shadow then it's pretty close. And typically in foundry, I easily do upper 300k-400k damage in the last fight, which is basically solo DPS'ing two of the bosses (not a 12 man, but point of reference).

    My burst DPS on a dummy is anywhere from 6-8k, of course it drops dramatically as I lose ability to sustain that (needing to rebuild focus and rebuff), but that doesn't mean that once I recycle back into my burst it's any less damage. It's very difficult to get an accurate parse for DPS, even with combatanalysis on because you cannot gauge the damage of specific skills. Hunters are a burst-reliant DPS class, however their ability to maintain consistent bursts is better than RKs, while champions and burglars are a more consistent DPS, but lower burst (arguably remorseless strikes and other combination skills could do more damage together, but it is a less sustained burst as opposed to a hunter exhausting all his focus).

    That said, I've never ran into a champion on our server yet who could even pull something off me without force shouting it, and I've typically always parsed higher than those I've ran with. Although this could just be lack of decent champions, which I wouldn't doubt.

    The idea though is that champs/burgs may be hitting a steady 4k when parsing (quicker, more consistent melee attacks), but my bursts are hitting nearly double or more than double that, while my low points may only be half of it, which gives a skewed parsing because it is harder to raise average DPS over a long period if you aren't able to sustain that amount of damage specifically, but it doesn't mean you are doing any less damage in the long run.
    [center]RIP Character signature generator, June 2013.[/center]
    [center]Theiol, Fervar, Turthonn, and Vanka, [i]retired LOTRO[/i]|Croue, Folter, [i]Rift - Shatterbone shard[/i][/center]

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Sunset Strip
    Posts
    823
    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    isnt it funny how the wardens, who recently got a 40m ranged 1k dps stance that we where asking for for years, always come in and tell us that we are fine. ya think we would know we where fine more than people who dont play lvl cap hunters
    Does my updated sig helps a bit? I wouldnt reply to something when i have no idea what im talking about. Sadly i cant say the same about you, after jumping in to cunclusions that guards are gonna be top-dpsers in RoR. Also comparing warden ranged stance with hunter? This is a joke right? At its current state warden ranged stance has almost no role in raid pve. If you think that hunter just isnt as usefull in comparison with other dps classes, then youre doing something very wrong.

    Just because the hunter is in a terrible place in PVP (which came in that place AFTER U6 and introduction of audacity), does not mean the class overall (pve-wise as well) is useless, or in a bad possition.

    Ettenmoors =/= any other pve area, where a hunter is at great possition. Got it now?
    ~Nimolas R11 Warden (Retired before RoR) (Snowbourn)

    ~Eralwen R10 hunter

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    Haven't saved any stats, but if I'm doing 400k of the damage in Shadow then it's pretty close.
    ummm.. 400k on a 1.5ish million boss is closer to 25% not 50%
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/22221000000041512/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  14. #114
    Er... did someone mention the adds already?

  15. #115
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    1,052
    Quote Originally Posted by Telaron70 View Post
    ummm.. 400k on a 1.5ish million boss is closer to 25% not 50%
    All of these claimed stats are pretty much anecdotal in any case. Is that Shadow T1? Then yeah, 400/1533 or 26%. T2? 400/1687 or 24%. But in T1, I'd have to wonder just what the heck else was not hitting it. And on T2, a hunter would be more focused on lights/defilers/roots than the boss. A burg hitting over 400k T2, sure. But not likely a hunter.

    But that's just one specific fight though.

    I'm highly curious about the new threat mechanics for RoR. But in RoI hunter DPS still has a solid place, and I see little to complain about. But this wouldn't be the hunter forums without a free flow of complaint.
    Parahelion - Burg, Krustii - Champ, Shurmann-Cappy, Tommac-Min, Lazarrus-LM, Thromdir-Hnt, Theodolan-Grd, Kozzmeaux - Bear - Dancing in the Dark kinship.
    Wrecks - Warg - The Black Blade

  16. #116
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    The Internetz
    Posts
    1,930
    Quote Originally Posted by Irenmund View Post
    All of these claimed stats are pretty much anecdotal in any case. Is that Shadow T1? Then yeah, 400/1533 or 26%. T2? 400/1687 or 24%. But in T1, I'd have to wonder just what the heck else was not hitting it. And on T2, a hunter would be more focused on lights/defilers/roots than the boss. A burg hitting over 400k T2, sure. But not likely a hunter.

    But that's just one specific fight though.

    I'm highly curious about the new threat mechanics for RoR. But in RoI hunter DPS still has a solid place, and I see little to complain about. But this wouldn't be the hunter forums without a free flow of complaint.
    hunter was ok-ish in RoI pve land. its not like we are wardens shortly post release.

    in RoI pvp land we fared quite well with hunters being quite balanced in the win/lose ratio by quickly killing anyone and quickly being killed. was not the best system overall but hunters fared well. with the introduction of audacity in u7 we got smacked over the head with a brick and lost our most powerful tool. the exra 30% survival didnt matter because it hardly made a diffrence when we lost our "BOOM" effect (something hunters almost exclusivley rely on to be effective)




    Hunter post RoR is projected to be poor in PVE, horrific/ almost unplayable in PVMP.

  17. #117
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Sunset Strip
    Posts
    823
    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    in RoI pvp land we fared quite well with hunters being quite balanced in the win/lose ratio by quickly killing anyone and quickly being killed. was not the best system overall but hunters fared well. with the introduction of audacity in u7 we got smacked over the head with a brick and lost our most powerful tool. the exra 30% survival didnt matter because it hardly made a diffrence when we lost our "BOOM" effect (something hunters almost exclusivley rely on to be effective)
    On that i agree. Hunter currently is/will still be at a terrible possition in the moors.

    As i said before pve and pvp are two completelly different things. Nothing has changed in PvE land, to bring the hunter to a bad possition. Hunters will still remain top dpsers, and with no doubt best single target dps in-game.
    ~Nimolas R11 Warden (Retired before RoR) (Snowbourn)

    ~Eralwen R10 hunter

  18. #118
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    The Internetz
    Posts
    1,930
    Quote Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon View Post
    On that i agree. Hunter currently is/will still be at a terrible possition in the moors.

    As i said before pve and pvp are two completelly different things. Nothing has changed in PvE land, to bring the hunter to a bad possition. Hunters will still remain top dpsers, and with no doubt best single target dps in-game.
    wrong. i said we did OK but not well.... we are still out-dpsed by burgs and some champs.....


    so we're not doing too hot in pve ether....



    just not nearly on the level of fail of PVP...its just weak in pve....

  19. #119
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    387
    Quote Originally Posted by Irenmund View Post
    All of these claimed stats are pretty much anecdotal in any case. Is that Shadow T1? Then yeah, 400/1533 or 26%. T2? 400/1687 or 24%. But in T1, I'd have to wonder just what the heck else was not hitting it. And on T2, a hunter would be more focused on lights/defilers/roots than the boss. A burg hitting over 400k T2, sure. But not likely a hunter.

    But that's just one specific fight though.

    I'm highly curious about the new threat mechanics for RoR. But in RoI hunter DPS still has a solid place, and I see little to complain about. But this wouldn't be the hunter forums without a free flow of complaint.
    Meh, details. True, closer to a fourth. But, the original point is that hunter DPS is typically going to be the highest in the group if they're on top of their game and know what they're doing. Statistically hunters have the CURRENT highest single-target DPS, followed very closely by burglars, RKs, and champs. We're not in a bad place DPS-wise as long as the work, time, and effort is put in to reach that place.

    And I'm also curious about that as well. At the moment, as long as the tank actually knows how to hold aggro (have pulled aggro off of tanks with 1st age gear with ONLY quick shot and yet never come close to pulling off some I know who don't even have anything dropped from a T2 raid) then it's practically impossible to pull aggro off them in a single-target tank-and-spank situation, with proper use of shot rotation and burst timing. By the looks of things with RoR, our DPS may be lowered a bit compared to other classes, but we may start out-generating the threat of some tanks if they haven't done a better job of scaling things yet, which will unfortunately put us in a worse position of sub-par DPS and too much threat.
    [center]RIP Character signature generator, June 2013.[/center]
    [center]Theiol, Fervar, Turthonn, and Vanka, [i]retired LOTRO[/i]|Croue, Folter, [i]Rift - Shatterbone shard[/i][/center]

  20. #120
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,003
    I have yet to see a champ come close to my hunter's single target DPS. I have not been around a RK that DPS's enough to see if they are comparable to hunters, but I don't doubt they are close, but with hunters having the edge. The only class (and sadly enough) that even comes close to my hunter DPS, in a sustainable T2 boss fight situation is a Burg (yes, a CC class...)

    As far as AoE, Champs probably have the upper hand, but if I swap out 2 traits (1 blue and 1 red) I can hang with champs in AoE situations as well.

    IMO, the ranking of DPS classes goes:

    Single Target:
    Hunter
    Burg
    RK?
    Champ

    AoE
    Champ
    Hunter
    LM

    Being #1 in ST DPS and #2 in AoE is fine by me... if you are regularly being out DPS'd by a champ, then either I run with &&&&&& champs, or you are doing something wrong...
    Elendilmir
    Kinship: [URL="http://e-apex.guildlaunch.com/index.php?gid=256768&sid=3b8e42d88e54213114e395e1cdd477ae"]Apex[/URL]
    Garcimili - 85 GRD /// Arthilios - 85 HTR /// RonSwanson - Defiler

  21. #121
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    625
    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    Haven't saved any stats, but if I'm doing 400k of the damage in Shadow then it's pretty close. And typically in foundry, I easily do upper 300k-400k damage in the last fight, which is basically solo DPS'ing two of the bosses (not a 12 man, but point of reference).
    Great, you are cherry-picking encounters that are designed to favor ranged DPS. Both Orthanc Shadow wing and the last boss(es) in Foundry involve situations where ranged can continuously DPS more or less and melees cannot. In fact, ideally we don't even take Champions to the Shadow wing, and Burglars go there primarily to CC and de-buff the boss, not to DPS. I am surprised you didn't mention that you DPS better than melees in the Lightning wing.

    And even then, as has been pointed out, your "nearly half" numbers are grossly inaccurate. And again, it's a fight where the only folks doing meaningful DPS are the ranged folks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    My burst DPS on a dummy is anywhere from 6-8k, of course it drops dramatically as I lose ability to sustain that (needing to rebuild focus and rebuff), but that doesn't mean that once I recycle back into my burst it's any less damage.
    What do you mean by "burst DPS" here? 1 Heart Seeker shot? Otherwise I don't see how you'd get 8k. I suppose I should do 1 Improved Seeking/Remorseless combination and say that's my "burst DPS."

    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    It's very difficult to get an accurate parse for DPS, even with combatanalysis on because you cannot gauge the damage of specific skills.
    Come again? How is it difficult to get "an accurate parse"? You don't have dots as a major part of your DPS like certain RK builds and Wardens. Just parse for 60-90 seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    Hunters are a burst-reliant DPS class, however their ability to maintain consistent bursts is better than RKs, while champions and burglars are a more consistent DPS, but lower burst (arguably remorseless strikes and other combination skills could do more damage together, but it is a less sustained burst as opposed to a hunter exhausting all his focus).
    Single-target DPS-oriented Champions depend on Crits/bursts, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    That said, I've never ran into a champion on our server yet who could even pull something off me without force shouting it, and I've typically always parsed higher than those I've ran with. Although this could just be lack of decent champions, which I wouldn't doubt.
    Well, here's the main problem: Whereas most Hunters and Burglars build themselves exclusively to be single-target DPS-ers (and know how to go about doing it--that is, high Agility/Crit), most Champions do not. Instead, most Champions dilute their single-target DPS potential by Morale-stacking or opting for builds that favor AOE, or simply do not know how to optimally build a single-target DPS Champion. I find this true of even Champions in top raiding kins in my server. Typically, even the ones who think they are building single-target DPS Champions neglect Crit and think dumping everything into Might/Physical Mastery is the answer. I wouldn't necessarily call them "bad" Champions, as they do many things better than me. But what I would say is that they are not going to be squeezing the full single-target DPS potential of their Champions.

    Having said that: The Champions who do build the "right" way can go 2200-2300 for 60-90 seconds without CBR on dummies. (I like dummy parses since there are no independent, external variables to take account of like external buffs, the quality of the tank, etc.) This means they can do 2600-2700 with CBR; and I have yet to see a Hunter put these kind of numbers for 60-90 second dummy parses (though I am not discounting the possibility they can).

    So I would say at the very least: Those few Champions who know how to build for single-target DPS can do as much single-target DPS as Hunters and likely more--provided it's a fight where CBR can be utilized.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    The idea though is that champs/burgs may be hitting a steady 4k when parsing (quicker, more consistent melee attacks), but my bursts are hitting nearly double or more than double that, while my low points may only be half of it, which gives a skewed parsing because it is harder to raise average DPS over a long period if you aren't able to sustain that amount of damage specifically, but it doesn't mean you are doing any less damage in the long run.
    I still don't understand what you are saying here.
    Last edited by Miretocot; Aug 31 2012 at 10:50 AM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2521c0000001feb60/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  22. #122
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    387
    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    Great, you are cherry-picking encounters that are designed to favor ranged DPS. Both Orthanc Shadow wing and the last boss(es) in Foundry involve situations where ranged can continuously DPS more or less and melees cannot. In fact, ideally we don't even take Champions to the Shadow wing, and Burglars go there primarily to CC and de-buff the boss, not to DPS. I am surprised you didn't mention that you DPS better than melees in the Lightning wing.
    No, those are simply some of the most evident situations, yes maybe they favor ranged DPS, but doesn't every instance? Other DPSers have to run around the room while hunters can stand and hit from nearly any position. So, you're basically supporting my point that hunters are still top single-target DPS, not sure what you're trying to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    What do you mean by "burst DPS" here? 1 Heart Seeker shot? Otherwise I don't see how you'd get 8k. I suppose I should do 1 Improved Seeking/Remorseless combination and say that's my "burst DPS."
    "Burst DPS" means my highest damage bursts. Not a single hit, but combination of my highest damage skills all together. Heartseeker is worthless (I'm beginning to guess you don't play a hunter?). If I use swift bow followed by blood arrow and penetrating shots it's easily 6-8k DPS (flat, uninterrupted damage, without anything else factored in) depending on crits/devs (upwards of 7k from swift bow on its own, plus between 5-7k from blood arrow dev, and 3.3k pen shot devs), if no crits or devs then substantially lower of course, but that's pretty unlikely, especially when raid buffed. And then DPS drops a bit when I have to revert back to inductions to regain focus or pause for intent concentration, but it raises again when going back into the burst. Do champions not have skill chains that do higher amounts of damage than others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    Come again? How is it difficult to get "an accurate parse"? You don't have dots as a major part of your DPS like certain RK builds and Wardens. Just parse for 60-90 seconds.
    Because there are a lot of times when you have to switch targets or have to stop DPS and move or whatever other various things end up happening in a raid. It's hard to get an accurate parse with so many breaks in combat, and it's even more difficult to get an accurate parse of exact burst DPS because you'd have to be able to stop your damage and combat immediately as soon as your burst ends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    Single-target DPS-oriented Champions depend on Crits/bursts, too.
    Everyone does, but it's the ability to sustain your string of hits that differentiates classes. Either a few high damage hits and lots of fast low damage ones, or a lot of mid-high damage hits at a steady pace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    Well, here's the main problem: Whereas most Hunters and Burglars build themselves exclusively to be single-target DPS-ers (and know how to go about doing it--that is, high Agility/Crit), most Champions do not. Instead, most Champions dilute their single-target DPS potential by Morale-stacking or opting for builds that favor AOE, or simply do not know how to optimally build a single-target DPS Champion. I find this true of even Champions in top raiding kins in my server. Typically, even the ones who think they are building single-target DPS Champions neglect Crit and think dumping everything into Might/Physical Mastery is the answer. I wouldn't necessarily call them "bad" Champions, as they do many things better than me. But what I would say is that they are not going to be squeezing the full single-target DPS potential of their Champions.

    Having said that: The Champions who do build the "right" way can go 2200-2300 for 60-90 seconds without CBR on dummies. (I like dummy parses since there are no independent, external variables to take account of like external buffs, the quality of the tank, etc.) This means they can do 2600-2700 with CBR; and I have yet to see a Hunter put these kind of numbers for 60-90 second dummy parses (though I am not discounting the possibility they can).
    I've seen numbers up to 2500 dps from other hunters over a minute from combatanalysis, without burn hot or any buffs, and claims of higher from others. I think someone posted a screenshot of doing over 3000 DPS over a minute on the forums here a while back actually. I can consistently usually do anywhere from 1800-2200 (random numbers seem to be 'consistent'), but I always get messed up by the breaks in combat that the dummies do and it breaks my shot rotation so that I lose skills or get buff rotation out of order. That's really only personal lack of ability though, as there are other hunters I know that can parse more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    So I would say at the very least: Those few Champions who know how to build for single-target DPS can do as much single-target DPS as Hunters and likely more--provided it's a fight where CBR can be utilized.
    Still not disproving that hunters are still highest single-target DPS. It's far more common for a hunter to out-DPS a champ and even more common that a hunter is in a better situation to utilize their ability to DPS than a champ would be. This could obviously change with the expansion and all that though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    I still don't understand what you are saying here.
    I think you might since you kind of proved my point a lot :/
    [center]RIP Character signature generator, June 2013.[/center]
    [center]Theiol, Fervar, Turthonn, and Vanka, [i]retired LOTRO[/i]|Croue, Folter, [i]Rift - Shatterbone shard[/i][/center]

  23. #123
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    625
    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    No, those are simply some of the most evident situations, yes maybe they favor ranged DPS, but doesn't every instance? Other DPSers have to run around the room while hunters can stand and hit from nearly any position. So, you're basically supporting my point that hunters are still top single-target DPS, not sure what you're trying to do.
    No, there are plenty of fights where melees can DPS continuously or almost continuously. In Orthanc raids two examples are Acid (entire fight if you do the Burglar "zerg" way and entire fight except the adds and water rise if you do not the "normal" way) and Frost & Fire (except until the tank gets the aggro on the 2nd giant). In normal RoI instances, they include the 2nd boss in Foundry, all of Fangorn's Edge, the first boss in Dargnakh, and the first and second bosses in the Pits.

    Moreover, if we used your cherry picked examples, you can make an argument that LMs (who don't have to CC) and Ministrels (who don't have to heal) do more single-target DPS than Champions, which is patently absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    "Burst DPS" means my highest damage bursts. Not a single hit, but combination of my highest damage skills all together. Heartseeker is worthless (I'm beginning to guess you don't play a hunter?).
    In a standard discussion of DPS, you are usually talking about DPS parses of at least 45 seconds and more, because there are no raid boss fights that take less time (even in discrete segments: e.g. the 1st giant in the Frost & Fire wing or before the adds come in the Acid wing). So I don't understand why you are so fixated on 3-4 second chains?

    And yes, I have a raiding Hunter--and a raiding Burglar, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    Because there are a lot of times when you have to switch targets or have to stop DPS and move or whatever other various things end up happening in a raid. It's hard to get an accurate parse with so many breaks in combat, and it's even more difficult to get an accurate parse of exact burst DPS because you'd have to be able to stop your damage and combat immediately as soon as your burst ends.
    Huh? I am talking about dummy DPS parses and you are talking about switching targets and/or moving?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    I've seen numbers up to 2500 dps from other hunters over a minute from combatanalysis, without burn hot or any buffs, and claims of higher from others. I think someone posted a screenshot of doing over 3000 DPS over a minute on the forums here a while back actually. I can consistently usually do anywhere from 1800-2200 (random numbers seem to be 'consistent'), but I always get messed up by the breaks in combat that the dummies do and it breaks my shot rotation so that I lose skills or get buff rotation out of order. That's really only personal lack of ability though, as there are other hunters I know that can parse more.
    First, I would have to see to believe a DUMMY DPS parse WITHOUT any buffs go over 3k a minute.

    Second, I have to say that if you are only doing 2200 dummy DPS max, and you've never seen a Champion (never!) out-aggro you, then you simply haven't seen a good single-target DPS Champion. I'd imagine every server has a Champion who can do over 2k without CBR, and those 2k non-CBR Champions are going to be doing 2400 if they have it on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    It's far more common for a hunter to out-DPS a champ and even more common that a hunter is in a better situation to utilize their ability to DPS than a champ would be.
    I don't disagree with this, but that is because--as I took pains to emphasize--there are different options to build Champions (e.g. tanking, hybrid-utility, AOE-oriented, and single-target-oriented), whereas all Hunters build to do single-target DPS.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2521c0000001feb60/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  24. #124
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,411
    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    My good sir. If you can backup all your claims I'd like to see some screenshots of DPS parses using combat analysis from these superior DPS classes and I will post a screenshot after yours that will blow your brain away.
    Then by all means, please go ahead and blow me away:



    This is with 1 Burg. Edit: and looking at the screen, I obviously forgot to buy the 5% shop/DP damage buff.



    1 min Dummy Parse (no CBR, no external buffs, food, whatsoever), it was over 2300 when I stopped attacking.



    Fire and Frost T2CM ... the fight actually ended at 2:27, I spent the rest of the time cheering in TS, as it was our First Kill (just see our video), so DPS dropped until the others finished of the Grims. DPS at 2:27 = 2587 DPS ... the only screen I've seen from you was not even close to 1800 DPS.



    2.700 DPS up to the first Add spawn in Acid T2 non-zerg ... only 1 Burg and no oathies up to that point, not even in Minnie's Group for Ballad of War. That's not even my best result till Add Spawn, I've gotten up to 2.900 prior to the adds (no screenie of that though)

    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    I've been playing hunter since SoA and the DPS chain where hunter is has never changed. So why does it matter if it was 2 years ago.
    I've been playing a Champ since SoA Beta and I highly doubt that Hunters have ever been in a clear 1st place. Never been outdps'ed by any hunter in the long run (the first 10 up to 20 seconds mabye, cause that's where Hunters have their stongest moment, but after that Champ wins hands down)

    Quote Originally Posted by Leganthir View Post
    Hunters are best dps class no doubt .you just need to improve your skills simple is that
    Any proof of that? That's like me saying Champs are the best DPS class, no doubt. You just need to improve your skills - simple as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    Haven't saved any stats, but if I'm doing 400k of the damage in Shadow then it's pretty close.
    Just have a look at my shadow fight pic. That's 637k from a Champ who also has to deal with purple puddles. I'd say 400k is on the low side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    My burst DPS on a dummy is anywhere from 6-8k, of course it drops dramatically as I lose ability to sustain that (needing to rebuild focus and rebuff), but that doesn't mean that once I recycle back into my burst it's any less damage.
    If you define Burst as being the first few seconds after opening with heartseeker ... You are never anywhere close to 6-8k at around 1 min and 1 min is still considered to be Burst. And in any boss fight opening with 8-9k DPS will still not lead to you being the best DPSer in that fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    That said, I've never ran into a champion on our server yet who could even pull something off me without force shouting it, and I've typically always parsed higher than those I've ran with. Although this could just be lack of decent champions, which I wouldn't doubt.
    Basically you've never run with any decent Champs then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    The idea though is that champs/burgs may be hitting a steady 4k when parsing (quicker, more consistent melee attacks), but my bursts are hitting nearly double or more than double that, while my low points may only be half of it, which gives a skewed parsing because it is harder to raise average DPS over a long period if you aren't able to sustain that amount of damage specifically, but it doesn't mean you are doing any less damage in the long run.
    Your Burst doesn't mean nothing as long as the Champ/Burg has done more damage during the overall fight duration.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCHawks73 View Post
    I have yet to see a champ come close to my hunter's single target DPS. I have not been around a RK that DPS's enough to see if they are comparable to hunters, but I don't doubt they are close, but with hunters having the edge. The only class (and sadly enough) that even comes close to my hunter DPS, in a sustainable T2 boss fight situation is a Burg (yes, a CC class...)
    I have yet to see a Hunter come close to my Champ's single target DPS. See my pics above (in answer to Yelk's post) and show me what you've got.
    Last edited by Vodomir; Sep 04 2012 at 07:07 AM.
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
    Vodomir - Champion (105) | Shae - Captain (97)
    Twisterhasen - Gwaihir [DE]

  25. #125
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,411
    Quote Originally Posted by SCHawks73 View Post
    As far as AoE, Champs probably have the upper hand, but if I swap out 2 traits (1 blue and 1 red) I can hang with champs in AoE situations as well.
    As for AoE DPS:



    4.300+ DPS over 2:20, with only 5 targets and reduced number of targets the more Clones went down - good luck with matching that. Peak was around 8k until 1st clone went down.

    Edit:
    Btw. I like how you say that champs "probably" have the upper hand, as if Hunters were able to pull ahead of Champs in the AoE department ;-)
    Last edited by Vodomir; Sep 04 2012 at 07:28 AM.
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
    Vodomir - Champion (105) | Shae - Captain (97)
    Twisterhasen - Gwaihir [DE]

 

 
Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload