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  1. #76

    Re: Hunter = 3 or 4th DPS class

    Quote Originally Posted by lariva View Post
    Ummm -- you pull because your instantenous threat goes up. Threat up above RK's = pull, burst damage (just like mini is doing burst healing).. RKs do much more averaged damage (fire) or unpredictable damage (light). Average your burst across time and i'm not sure how it will work out to be.
    I think you missed the joke...

  2. #77

    Re: Hunter = 3 or 4th DPS class

    I really wanted to go off on a long rant but I will restrain myself.

    Champs dominate this game, get some perspective.
    [LEFT][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen][B]7 Level 65s: Champ, Hunter, Guardian, Captain, RK, LM, Burglar[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=YellowGreen] [B]All of them are sick of grinding Scrolls of Empowerment[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=Red][B]Awaiting change...[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
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  3. #78
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    Re: Hunter = 3 or 4th DPS class

    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfingers View Post
    And yet, once you get to the Lt, the class that I am least interested in having as part of my raids is a Champ.

    2 Guardians and 10 Runekeepers ftw.
    Right, a fight had to be designed to specifically exclude melee DPS (champions) in order to cover up the fact that they dominate in every other way. It is not so much that they are overpowered, but they are overly useful. Champs output the highest DPS, AoE or Single Target and can switch to at least competent tanking with a gear and stance swap on the fly. No other class is that useful. In fact RKs and now minstrels are specifically restricted in their ability to bounce between their roles and Guards had their OP damage output nerfed heavily with the weapon speed normalization and the change of how "instant" and "fast" skills operate.

    One Fight =/= The Whole Game.

    The fact of the matter is that since Moria launch, end game encounters have been designed to be specifically inclusive of ranged characters because otherwise they tend to be not so obviously useful.
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  4. #79

    Re: Hunter = 3 or 4th DPS class

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    The fact of the matter is that since Moria launch, end game encounters have been designed to be specifically inclusive of ranged characters because otherwise they tend to be not so obviously useful.
    LOL, BG is affirmative action for hunters! Seriously though, those design decisions are far from popular.
    [center][font=Courier New][size=+1][color=white][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/windfola/du/"]Du[/URL], leader of [URL="http://lotro.paradoxquest.com/"] O [/URL][/color][/size][/font][/center]

  5. #80

    Re: Hunter = 3 or 4th DPS class

    Of course they aren't popular. People get used to grabbing a couple Champs, adding a heaping helping of Ballad of War, and destroying everything in their path when they're outside of a raid. When you get raid bosses that inhibit that behavior people get cranky. Of course if you didn't inhibit that sort of behavior things would be incredibly boring in raids too.

    Sometimes the design decisions are a little too harsh and melee becomes too inhibited but you've got to admit that those decisions are made for a reason.
    [LEFT][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen][B]7 Level 65s: Champ, Hunter, Guardian, Captain, RK, LM, Burglar[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=YellowGreen] [B]All of them are sick of grinding Scrolls of Empowerment[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=Red][B]Awaiting change...[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
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  6. #81
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    Re: Hunter = 3 or 4th DPS class

    Quote Originally Posted by NameAlreadyTaken View Post
    Of course they aren't popular. People get used to grabbing a couple Champs, adding a heaping helping of Ballad of War, and destroying everything in their path when they're outside of a raid. When you get raid bosses that inhibit that behavior people get cranky. Of course if you didn't inhibit that sort of behavior things would be incredibly boring in raids too.

    Sometimes the design decisions are a little too harsh and melee becomes too inhibited but you've got to admit that those decisions are made for a reason.
    GRR. I've only repped 2 people this morning and I'm already getting "You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later." TEH SISTEM IZ BROKIN!
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  7. #82
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    Re: Hunter = 3 or 4th DPS class

    Quote Originally Posted by NameAlreadyTaken View Post
    Of course they aren't popular. People get used to grabbing a couple Champs, adding a heaping helping of Ballad of War, and destroying everything in their path when they're outside of a raid. When you get raid bosses that inhibit that behavior people get cranky. Of course if you didn't inhibit that sort of behavior things would be incredibly boring in raids too.

    Sometimes the design decisions are a little too harsh and melee becomes too inhibited but you've got to admit that those decisions are made for a reason.


    What people try to speed clear grindy content, only to find that raids aren't best speed cleared?

    crazee. talk. is. crazy.





    --
    PS: I agree. I love wrecking content w/ champs, and it's kinda... interesting... that itemization and rewards results in 1) get champs > wreck SG for 2nd age > wreck SH for +25/15 radiance. and 2) you can raid BG! > kick champs.

    It's kinda. Meh.

    I don't mind a good speed clear. I love it for fash cash, and w/ MoM: iXP/relics. But they should make instances best not speed-cleared (they did w/ 3 mans, but 3 mans have their own balance issues b/c they're not full fellowships) but whiel they do so, they're should be a compelling reward for choosing the 'not speed clear' option.

    Save the speed clear stuff for iXP, barters, relics, cash.
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  8. #83
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    Re: Hunter = 3 or 4th DPS class

    Quote Originally Posted by BlooBandaid View Post
    No other class can AoE like Champs, actually is there another AoE class? Hunters only get one non slot AoE attack, Capts have one as well, Minstrel in War Speech has 3, I guess Mini's would be the 2nd AoE class, per say.
    No, LMs would be second. As far as single-target dps, LMs fall way low on the dps pyramid; but as far as burst aoe damage (5+ targets), LMs are easily second to Champs. It's often overlooked because it's not sustained damage, but Improved Sticky Gourd (napalm), Cracked Earth, Ents, & Lightning in sequence can dish out 3000+ damage to as many as 5 targets in just a few seconds (Ents & Lightning have several minute cooldowns after that, but Improved Sticky Gourd, Cracked Earth, & Wind-Lore are aoe skills that are more or less spammable).
    Last edited by Graythandor; Apr 08 2010 at 10:44 AM.
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  9. #84

    Re: Hunter = 3 or 4th DPS class

    Quote Originally Posted by NameAlreadyTaken View Post
    you've got to admit that those decisions are made for a reason.
    Eliminate affirmative action for hunters!
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  10. #85
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    hallo, this is 2012 RoR calling....


    we would like to re-use this.




    so now RoR with the lack of pretty much anything for hunter dps or survival wise we are still lost really.


    my prediction overall and raid wise for sustained DPS post RoR:

    1: burgs
    2: champions
    3: Hunters/RK (i dont know presonally about RK)
    4: guards

  11. #86
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    burgs are definately the TOP DPSers nowadays...
    Forgotten_Legend, The Baconnaire
    Malinon - 75 Champion | JAZRAIEL - 100 HUNTER | Taeran - 75 RuneKeeper

  12. #87
    I think you are doing it wrong if multiple classes are doing more dps than you in raids.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    I think you are doing it wrong if multiple classes are doing more dps than you in raids.
    well its been proven by many people by many phrases that burgs hold #1 position in raids and they also add some damage multiplies that help everyone else DPS.

    champs are more iffy but an 100% dps champ can out-dps most hunters and can tank/survive better to boot.

    RKs im not sure about but from what i hear they are around if not slightly lower than hunter in sustained DPS as well has having the ability to heal and switch from great dps to great healing in a pinch using their steady hands skill.

  14. #89
    Necro much? You drug up a thread from 2010, and knowing the forums, people are gonna quote/reply to the old 2010 posts without noticing the date... Just make a new thread instead of necroing a two year old one.
    [b]The thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach.” - J.R.R. Tolkien[/b]

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh13333 View Post
    Necro much? You drug up a thread from 2010, and knowing the forums, people are gonna quote/reply to the old 2010 posts without noticing the date... Just make a new thread instead of necroing a two year old one.
    Well first, he did notice the post date (note the "2012 calling"). Second...

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    Excellent! *air guitar*
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  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    hallo, this is 2012 RoR calling....


    we would like to re-use this.




    so now RoR with the lack of pretty much anything for hunter dps or survival wise we are still lost really.


    my prediction overall and raid wise for sustained DPS post RoR:

    4: guards
    ./facepal.. oh wait double facepalm!

    Have you actually seen the single targets dps of a guardian in Beta ? It has hardly gone up, most say by 10% MAX... A guardian can barely do more than 1k , single target dps. The only good part about guards dps post RoR will be AoE dps, where a champ will still be better. Also an OP guard will have far less survivability than a champion, and no panic (survivability-wise) buttons.

    As it stands at the moment hunter can probably do the best single target dps in-game, and i really dont know why you feel that will change. The hunter is at a great possition at the moment and it will still be post RoR, always talking pve-wise. The only part where hunter REALLY suffers is the moors, but thats something completelly different.

    Also lol at thread necromancy!
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  17. #92
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    if you have heartseeker as part of your rotation every 2min. in raids, maybe its time you stop using it.
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  18. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by BlooBandaid View Post
    I'm starting to wonder what role Hunters are becoming lately. As I see it, the best DPS class are Rune Keepers, once they get full attunement and blast, they can nuke a mob about 50% or more. Champs with Remorseful Strike can also dish out a hell of a lot of damage, and in quick succession as well. To some extent a Minstrel in War Speech can dish out quite a bit of damage, even Burgs traited correctly can do a hell of a lot of damage as well.
    Runekeepers are great, the fire damage is awesome and the lightning damage is highly based upon crits. The reason you are not correct and hunters are the #1 DPS class is because of their high base damage (non crit values).

    Quote Originally Posted by BlooBandaid View Post
    With that said, I started to wonder what are Hunters becoming? Hunters DPS seems to be very overrated of late, and even in raids, dropping a Hunter and replacing him with a Champ would give more damage output, so where does it put other Hunters?
    That is very situational. For agro purposes, tanking or for suvivial purposes, for certain AOE issues yes, for single target DPS no.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlooBandaid View Post
    I've stopped using Heart Seeker ages ago as the time it takes for the induction vs the cooldown, and lucky crit shot makes it not a viable attack. I much rather use Needful Haste over Heart Seeker any day, I have extended duration and Fast Draw traited to add to it. Even with those traits and my max induction and focus bow crits, Champs still out DPS me.
    What you just said makes no sense. Needful haste over Heartseeker? Maybe proofread lol. Heartseeker is worth using if you have proper gear/ and captain rk buffs that gives you 25% crit chance in raid. Combined with 1-2 burg marks you will often crit. Also ensure you have the 20% damage legacy for it and it will hit 6k non crit.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlooBandaid View Post
    I've also noticed even in groups people are willing to drop a Hunter in lieu of a Champ, even during chatter in pug groups, I hear people not referring to Hunters as DPS. I can't blame them as seeing dps parsing, Rune Keepers blows Hunters away, Champs do about 25% more overall damage, not to mention they're the best AoEers, so it just pushes Hunters back of the line more. Minstrels with Legacies to ballads resists and a full DPS LI can out damage Hunters as well, traited in War Speech.
    Who are you using to get these numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlooBandaid View Post
    So is the end for Hunters nearing? With all the nerfing being done to Hunters and improvements to other classes, it's a crying shame that Hunters are no longer the prime DPS class of old. And Vol 3, what a joke, we get an upgrade to beneath notice, while Champs gets a nice upgrade to relentless strike. Though Capt also got the shaft on Vol 3 as well, but that's a different story. I just hope Turbine places Hunters at the top two if not the number 1 DPS class soon, it's sad that the only thing Hunters are useful for is porting. And the moors, Hunters are becoming a joke.
    My good sir. If you can backup all your claims I'd like to see some screenshots of DPS parses using combat analysis from these superior DPS classes and I will post a screenshot after yours that will blow your brain away.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh13333 View Post
    Necro much? You drug up a thread from 2010, and knowing the forums, people are gonna quote/reply to the old 2010 posts without noticing the date... Just make a new thread instead of necroing a two year old one.
    And..... you called it in one. Yep. People replied as if it weren't two years old. I'd second the idea of just starting a new thread. But a whining thread is not just a repeat from 2010, it's a repeat from last week...the week before that...etc. etc. How many are necessary or serve any purpose at all?

    In the current state nobody has a problem with having 2 or more hunters in most raid groups, since their DPS is just fine. In fact, wasn't a complaint about having to dial back actual DPS due to aggro issues? And wasn't that, to an extent addressed? Should we, oh I don't know, wait and see how things go in the new changes in the expansion before another new round of whine?
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  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    Runekeepers are great, the fire damage is awesome and the lightning damage is highly based upon crits. The reason you are not correct and hunters are the #1 DPS class is because of their high base damage (non crit values).

    That is very situational. For agro purposes, tanking or for suvivial purposes, for certain AOE issues yes, for single target DPS no.

    What you just said makes no sense. Needful haste over Heartseeker? Maybe proofread lol. Heartseeker is worth using if you have proper gear/ and captain rk buffs that gives you 25% crit chance in raid. Combined with 1-2 burg marks you will often crit. Also ensure you have the 20% damage legacy for it and it will hit 6k non crit.

    Who are you using to get these numbers?

    My good sir. If you can backup all your claims I'd like to see some screenshots of DPS parses using combat analysis from these superior DPS classes and I will post a screenshot after yours that will blow your brain away.
    >Doesn't realise he's replying to someone who posted 2 years ago.
    >Thinks he's so super awesome because he can post screenshots of now that are better than screenshots then.

    How's typing before reading working out for you?

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon View Post
    ./facepal.. oh wait double facepalm!

    Have you actually seen the single targets dps of a guardian in Beta ? It has hardly gone up, most say by 10% MAX... A guardian can barely do more than 1k , single target dps. The only good part about guards dps post RoR will be AoE dps, where a champ will still be better. Also an OP guard will have far less survivability than a champion, and no panic (survivability-wise) buttons.

    As it stands at the moment hunter can probably do the best single target dps in-game, and i really dont know why you feel that will change. The hunter is at a great possition at the moment and it will still be post RoR, always talking pve-wise. The only part where hunter REALLY suffers is the moors, but thats something completelly different.

    Also lol at thread necromancy!
    isnt it funny how the wardens, who recently got a 40m ranged 1k dps stance that we where asking for for years, always come in and tell us that we are fine. ya think we would know we where fine more than people who dont play lvl cap hunters


    Hunters have long since lost their top spot to burgs in raids. its been proven time and time again.

    perhaps guard is overhyped... im just looking at what devs where saying about "near hunter/champ dps"

    champs post RoR are doing more sustained dps then hunters especially when target is bleow 1/2 health.




    also: LOL at yelks response to 2 year ago post.... loving the necromancy aswell!

  22. #97
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    Yelk, this is for you and others who do not understand that parses are not the whole story when it comes to dps.

    Im going to explain why those wonderful numbers you post really are &&&&. I dont know if it is just your writing style or not, but your arrogance has finally made me step up to slap you down.

    1. Synergy-is two or more things functioning together to produce a result not independently obtainable.

    You aint got it.

    A burg brings an overall 10% dps buff to the ENTIRE group if he replaces you, and if everyone else does the same things, here are a just a FEW of the things that happen: The overall dps that is output WILL GO UP. What you beat him from is straight dps, but he brings 10% more to EVERYONE. This whips your a$$ in terms of straight dps brought to the group. Now that aint all he/she does. He brings a debuff or 2, including a damage debuff to the boss and an ability to perform a hips and attacks after that SPIKE his damage while reducing his aggro.

    What else does a burg bring in terms of dps? Guard can easily maintain aggro, no need to trait strait aggro line= Guard takes less damage and outputs more damage, healing classes can throw more buffs and here is another big one-dps classes DO NOT have to stop their rotations as often to reduce the threat because of YOU. This means those reduce aggro buttons become dps buttons. Ask any guard who has run ToO with the burgs setups and see how easy it is.

    This also applies with RKs who can dps, and use their skills to reduce the damage the entire group takes while doing so much more than just those numbers you tout, but to a lesser extent.

    More is happening during a raid than healing and damage. Just the aggro you bring alone makes guards, healers and other dps classes have to change their entire styles just to help you put up those numbers, that in the end does nothing more than allow you to brag and do not show that you actually REDUCED others ability to shine by just being there.

    So I will put it to you-I challenge you to show me that you do more damage than a burg does + 10% of the damage of everyone else in a 12 man raid AND you can do this without forcing others to reduce the amount of damage that is done by them.

    This is why those of us who understand synergy say that the class is broken. We understand that in a group there is more to dps than pew pewing and those wonderful numbers you are so proud of.

    Djasi
    A guardian
    Last edited by JeffF611; Aug 26 2012 at 10:43 AM.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffF611 View Post
    Yelk, this is for you and others who do not understand that parses are not the whole story when it comes to dps.

    Im going to explain why those wonderful numbers you post really are &&&&. I dont know if it is just your writing style or not, but your arrogance has finally made me step up to slap you down.

    1. Synergy-is two or more things functioning together to produce a result not independently obtainable.

    You aint got it.

    A burg brings an overall 10% dps buff to the ENTIRE group if he replaces you, and if everyone else does the same things, here are a just a FEW of the things that happen: The overall dps that is output WILL GO UP. What you beat him from is straight dps, but he brings 10% more to EVERYONE. This whips your a$$ in terms of straight dps brought to the group. Now that aint all he/she does. He brings a debuff or 2, including a damage debuff to the boss and an ability to perform a hips and attacks after that SPIKE his damage while reducing his aggro.

    What else does a burg bring in terms of dps? Guard can easily maintain aggro, no need to trait strait aggro line= Guard takes less damage and outputs more damage, healing classes can throw more buffs and here is another big one-dps classes DO NOT have to stop their rotations as often to reduce the threat because of YOU. This means those reduce aggro buttons become dps buttons. Ask any guard who has run ToO with the burgs setups and see how easy it is.

    This also applies with RKs who can dps, and use their skills to reduce the damage the entire group takes while doing so much more than just those numbers you tout, but to a lesser extent.

    More is happening during a raid than healing and damage. Just the aggro you bring alone makes guards, healers and other dps classes have to change their entire styles just to help you put up those numbers, that in the end do nothing more than allow you to brag and do not show that you actually REDUCED others ability to shine by just being there.

    So I will put it to you-I challenge you to show me that you do more damage than a burg does + 10% of the damage of everyone else in a 12 man raid AND you can do this without forcing others to reduce the amount of damage that is done by them.

    This is why those of us who understand synergy say that the class is broken. We understand that in a group there is more to dps than pew pewing and those wonderful numbers you are so proud of.

    Djasi
    A guardian
    superbly put.

    on a minor note: not all burgs trait the +2% to the 8% inc damage debuff. they still increase inc damage by 8% regradless

    also burgs phrase sustained DPS better than hunters. with a LM being a battery or smart power management a burg can be the top DPSer while also surviving, providing debuffs, cc, and has minimanl agro issues.

  24. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffF611 View Post
    Yelk, this is for you and others who do not understand that parses are not the whole story when it comes to dps.

    Im going to explain why those wonderful numbers you post really are &&&&. I dont know if it is just your writing style or not, but your arrogance has finally made me step up to slap you down.

    1. Synergy-is two or more things functioning together to produce a result not independently obtainable.

    You aint got it.

    A burg brings an overall 10% dps buff to the ENTIRE group if he replaces you, and if everyone else does the same things, here are a just a FEW of the things that happen: The overall dps that is output WILL GO UP. What you beat him from is straight dps, but he brings 10% more to EVERYONE. This whips your a$$ in terms of straight dps brought to the group. Now that aint all he/she does. He brings a debuff or 2, including a damage debuff to the boss and an ability to perform a hips and attacks after that SPIKE his damage while reducing his aggro.

    What else does a burg bring in terms of dps? Guard can easily maintain aggro, no need to trait strait aggro line= Guard takes less damage and outputs more damage, healing classes can throw more buffs and here is another big one-dps classes DO NOT have to stop their rotations as often to reduce the threat because of YOU. This means those reduce aggro buttons become dps buttons. Ask any guard who has run ToO with the burgs setups and see how easy it is.

    This also applies with RKs who can dps, and use their skills to reduce the damage the entire group takes while doing so much more than just those numbers you tout, but to a lesser extent.

    More is happening during a raid than healing and damage. Just the aggro you bring alone makes guards, healers and other dps classes have to change their entire styles just to help you put up those numbers, that in the end does nothing more than allow you to brag and do not show that you actually REDUCED others ability to shine by just being there.

    So I will put it to you-I challenge you to show me that you do more damage than a burg does + 10% of the damage of everyone else in a 12 man raid AND you can do this without forcing others to reduce the amount of damage that is done by them.

    This is why those of us who understand synergy say that the class is broken. We understand that in a group there is more to dps than pew pewing and those wonderful numbers you are so proud of.

    Djasi
    A guardian
    I'm pretty sure Yelk uses the 5 set that gives Hunters a Reveal Weaknessesque debuff from ISB. It is literally about 10% more Dmg and is up most of the time. So...yeah. Incidentally, I use it too on my Hunt.

    I don't disagree that Burg brings more utility on average...BUT the Hunter is not at all in a bad place right now in raids. Unlike the Burg the Hunter will be hitting their target pretty much all the time. In fights like Shadow T2or Saruman T2 that is a huge deal.

    The only thing I as a Hunter am legitimately peeved off about in comparison to Burgs is their HiPS. As a deaggro it is way too good and our deaggro skills are way too bad.

    If you're saying RKs outDPS Hunters...I've got some bad news for you. Or are you including the Fire Fall to Wrath skill?

    And protip, doing damage is a synergistic contribution. When things die...and die quick...the group requires less heals. You don't need to deal with debuffs as long, have reduced liability tanking, etc.

    Oh, and Hunters are much less of a power burden than Burgs. That isn't negligible. Burgs have absolutely NO power management atm, and to put out their high DPS #s requires a lot of support.

    Hunters absolutely have some valid complaints. The damage they deal isn't one of them. For a DPS class...that's pretty good I think.
    Last edited by PhantomPunkk; Aug 26 2012 at 11:42 AM.
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  25. #100
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    112
    Phantom,

    Most of the time? Really? ALL of the time for burg wins my friend. Please take a look at how often it is really up and how it works with multiple mobs like in ToO you spoke of. Combine that with a real reduction in aggro skill and debuffs and Burg is CLEAR winner. Try all you want, hunter is clear loser compared to burg in dps and in utility. You still dont get that it is ALL those other things that make the hunter less desireable.

    And the RK, while not doing the same dps as hunter, provides SO MUCH MORE and without all the aggro issues, I say the argument for RK over hunter is at least one worth thinking about in every instance that does not require a straight dps race. Dps is great, but dps plus all they provide can not be dismissed. Shouldn't this be concerning to hunters in general?

    Please consider all those other little things I spoke to. They cannot be ignored in any thoughtful discussion. It is those little things that matter. The next update is supposed to have provided hunters with some aggro reduction and this could make your argument stand up better if it does what is intended, but for now your argument does not stand.

 

 
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