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  1. #1
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    3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    Well, it's been a while since we had one of these threads!

    I think that this is a good sign, and while LIs/radiance have a distrinct impact on my playtime, I feel my hunter is in a much better place than it has been historically, and for that I thank Turbine and the Dev Team.

    I have noticed a few things that I feel, as a long-time hunter and avid-forum poster, could round out the class, or address some inconsistencies.

    So, w/o further ado:





    --
    1: Lack of an Induction-Free Interrupt w/in the constraint of the ToF traits/line bonus

    For a CC 'job' (which is what a 5:5 ToF hunter is), an instant interrupt would really round out the profession. In 5:5 ToF w/ Explosive, distracting shot LOSES it's interrupt use as it becomes a perma-mez (PS: thanks for that). This only leaves Bards Arrow and Cry of the Predator, which do not work 100% of the time on all targets.

    Suggestion: Due to the Dev-Confirmed issues w/ disabling auto-attacks for Improved Penatrating Shot for the 4 ToF line bonus (which adds a root), I suggest removing the root functionality and replace it w/ a short stun. This would allow ToF hunters to keep their autoattacks on (this was the point of the combat overhaul, right?), gain an instant stun to interrupt heals/induction moves - but only every 30sec, but at a cost of 25% of their DPS. Due to DR in the Moors, this is now possible w/o being overpowering in PvMP.




    --
    2: Lack of QS enhancement for Fleet Stance.

    Yes, fleet stance stinks, but S:IF has it's uses. However, both stances lack an improvement to Quick Shot, and those improvements enhance their stances with great synergy. S:S's slow makes it ideal for solo/moors, S:E's detaunt (if it works / the tooltip) enhances a reduced threat stance, and S:P's crit stacks nicely w/ pip generation. S:F and S:IF lack such synergy.

    Suggestion: have QS in S:F and S:IF add a slight accuracy debuff to the target w/ a short duration.





    --
    3:Enhancements to Set Snare

    Set Snare doesn't stack w/ other Hunters snares, is not affected by combat traps / strong traps traits, and the damage doesn't scale well relative to level.

    Suggestion: Let Combat Traps apply to snares, Let Strong Traps modify the duration or strength of the bleed, modify snare DoT so that multiple snares can be applied to the same target. Based on these potential enhancements, modify set snare damage.






    --
    Thanks for your time, comments welcome.
    Last edited by kerryak; Mar 16 2010 at 12:25 PM.
    [COLOR=CYAN][SIZE=3]Hat Beerbane, Former .xls Wizard and Hunter Blogger[/SIZE]
    [/color]

  2. #2

    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    Yeah, I think the class is in a better place too. It could use a few tweaks to round out a few rough edges though, and those are nice. They address little inconsistencies without being big changes.

    My personal thoughts would be...

    1) That's still not a proper interrupt, although I agree one would be nice. Unfortunately I don't have a good suggestion for where to put an interrupt since Barbed Arrow is no longer lolworthy.

    2) I'd like to see "QS becomes an immediate skill; QS gains a 3 second cool down". There's a lot more synergy with the whole Fleet Stance concept if you can do more than auto attack while moving. You would still have to stop to dump Focus or use ISB/BA/HS/Bard's so I don't think it would be a problem. I know Turbine can do it too as my RK class traits change one of my induction skills to an on the move, immediate skill (which just rocks).

    I'd take about anything though as you are quite on the money when pointing out that S:F is the only stance that doesn't modify QS in any way.

    3) Agreed. Set Snare has always felt like the red headed stepchild of traps. It was a nice idea at the time in SoA but it stands alone, and it's been left behind since level 50.
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  3. #3
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by NameAlreadyTaken View Post
    1) That's still not a proper interrupt, although I agree one would be nice. Unfortunately I don't have a good suggestion for where to put an interrupt since Barbed Arrow is no longer lolworthy.

    2) I'd like to see "QS becomes an immediate skill; QS gains a 3 second cool down". There's a lot more synergy with the whole Fleet Stance concept if you can do more than auto attack while moving. You would still have to stop to dump Focus or use ISB/BA/HS/Bard's so I don't think it would be a problem. I know Turbine can do it too as my RK class traits change one of my induction skills to an on the move, immediate skill (which just rocks).

    I'd take about anything though as you are quite on the money when pointing out that S:F is the only stance that doesn't modify QS in any way.
    TBH: I agree w/ you about my 1st point. But (along w/ corruption removal) I believe Turbine thinks it's too uber, and this rounds out alot of ToF's issues (especially turning AA's off to make the most of IPS, due to IPS not being able to turn off AA's w/o PS turning off AA's as well - DevConfirmed), and if you need an interupt, it's 'traitable' via the line-bonii. I think this is an acceptable compromise, that addresses multiple game-play issues.

    re: QS turning instant but w/ a delayed CD, that's interesting and a good suggestion - more in-line w/ the whole mobility concept.

    I was thinking of the accuracy debuff so that IFS doesn't 'suckazz' vs ranged MOBs, which will just stand there and plink at you, so why run around. an accuracy debuff could make some shots whiff. plus, I thought it'd be funny if they were blinded by my sweet dance moves.
    [COLOR=CYAN][SIZE=3]Hat Beerbane, Former .xls Wizard and Hunter Blogger[/SIZE]
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  4. #4
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    Also...





    --
    4: Bear Hats

    Pariah doesn't like them.

    No really, he doesn't like them.
    [COLOR=CYAN][SIZE=3]Hat Beerbane, Former .xls Wizard and Hunter Blogger[/SIZE]
    [/color]

  5. #5
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    maybe at 66, snare trap could be replaced by something more like a lure trap with a few more hitpoints that we could use as "Bait." it could have a every-2 second- AoE- 10- point- damage- pulse (or a threat pulse/ taunt) or something that could hold aggro for a short time, so we could tank and spank like a captain with his/her archer herald. except of course we couldn't heal it. (maybe a minnie could? nah just kidding) but at least it could last longer than the hand wrought lure traps.

    ToF bonuses would apply to it naturally, so it could actually offer some utility in combat if an extra offtank was temperarily needed. (would still only last 30 seconds or hitpoints zeroed out, whichever came first.)

    lame examples of use... 1) you are ToF hunter in a 6-man, minnie takes a beating, drop a bait trap. pound on it. 2) you are a bowmaster doing "death from below." you toss up a bait trap on the last pull, RoT, the bait trap pulls aggro on every mob that RoT misses (regardless that YOU hit the mobs first, because of the threat pulses) allowing you a little more leeway in the fight. (if you're traited deep enough into ToF, you could drop another bait trap in combat 30 seconds later to draw aggro of whatever mobs are still standing)
    Forgotten_Legend, The Baconnaire
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  6. #6
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    I was going to create a very similar thread since I tend to do so every 6 months or so (more often as needed), but I guess I will just contribute to this one rather than stroke my own ego.

    <brings nothing to the table>
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  7. #7
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    <brings nothing to the table>
    you forgot the Vermont cheese again, didn't you? Bree Cheese for you tonight mister...
    Forgotten_Legend, The Baconnaire
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  8. #8

    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by kerryak View Post
    Yes, fleet stance stinks, but S:IF has it's uses.

    Not to derail this thread, as I think it has real merit to revisit on occasion, but what exactly does S:IF do? Really, I have no idea as I've never tried it. From the tooltip I've assumed it means you don't have to be facing your target, but I am likely wrong...
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  9. #9
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    +5 movement before focus loss, -60% reduced miss chance while moving (have to still face target, but can strafe L or R to good effect), but most importantly -10% attack duration. (don't confuse this w/ induction speed.)

    this, in combination w/ needful haste and certain runes on your LI, can get you to -44/45% attack duration. (NH is -25% attack duration, on top of the changes to induction for ISB and Barbed Arrow.)

    It's not often practical in PvE, I use it more in PvMP. but used in combination w/ other things can get you to pop off quite a few shots during a short window when you stack all these attack duration effects.
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  10. #10
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    when the tooltip says "Aim" it really means "focus." improved S:F removes the "aim" requirement from standard S:F (which costs you 1 focus per second to upkeep, and is not permitted in combat, so if you never build focus, it lasts 9 seconds in combat, assuming you started with full focus) also, the iS:F can be used out of combat, as well, so it can be maintained "permanently"
    Forgotten_Legend, The Baconnaire
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  11. #11
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    Just let us be able to use all our skills on the move (cept for maybe HS) ala and rk...and just factor in a miss chance when using a skill while moving. Dont make it so over the top that no shots ever land while moving but maybe 75% accuracy while on the move...wit a legacy to increase it. Turn **** stance (err fleet stance) into that and i'd actually equip it on my hotbar.

    I dunno about the rest of you, but i've grown very annoyed after 2+ years (or however long it's been since this game came out) of have to stop, induct, shot, repeat.

    Even our immediate fire skills, such as pen. shot n merc shot, require us to be standing still. It'd make the class alot smoother n all the nerfs we've had to endure more tolerable imo




    btw, yes we do need an interupt skill and a corruption removal skill thats useful for more then just half the fight...sooooo stupid.


    OT

    Can we PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get 1 pull down menu for our ports???!? I mean really, do I need to take up a whole hotbar + just to have my ports at the rdy, or go through my skills list to find em. Thats such a minor thing but it'd be so nice to have.

    Plus it'd give me more room to put stuff up I actually use more then every so often, all my bars r full atm
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000034d99/01007/signature.png]Jmez[/charsig]
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  12. #12

    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    We will never see a pull down menu for ports. I agree, and I've been one of the many Hunters asking for it since SoA: Book 9. Unfortunately that ship sailed when Turbine made all skills usable from the Character panel. You don't need a quick slot to use them any more, so I don't see anyone spending time to actually do the drop down menu.

    Yes, I'm a little bitter. I'd have taken that as our L62 'skill upgrade' and been THRILLED too.
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  13. #13
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    I was going to create a very similar thread since I tend to do so every 6 months or so (more often as needed), but I guess I will just contribute to this one rather than stroke my own ego.

    <brings nothing to the table>
    Your post sucks.

    Moving on...

    I'd really like some sort of buff to the Snare and your ideas are good ones. I don't have a lot to say regarding the first 2 as I've never traited all the way down ToF (and can't really imagine doing so) and I never even BOUGHT Fleet Stance. lol.
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  14. #14
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayrolen View Post
    Your post sucks.

    Moving on...

    I'd really like some sort of buff to the Snare and your ideas are good ones. I don't have a lot to say regarding the first 2 as I've never traited all the way down ToF (and can't really imagine doing so) and I never even BOUGHT Fleet Stance. lol.
    i bought fleet stance... in BETA.. on a character copy... just so i could test it out... you know, make SURE it sucked, instead of just theorizing that it sucked. i even bought the legendary! and i used it... and my conclusion is... i shouldn't have wasted my time in BETA testing it.

    on a positive note: my skill trainer on live is still on my ignore list for having even mentioned fleet stance once.

    on another positive note: all we need is a little [item]moor cowbell[/item]!
    Forgotten_Legend, The Baconnaire
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  15. #15
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    Good ideas, I'd love for Turbine to change some aspects and round out the rough edges also.

    Something I would like to add to this conversation would be a new skill that would guarantee and crit on the next skill use, much like the Burglars Aim skill.

    Something like this:

    Fly True: 5 Minute Cooldown, 10 second buff.

    Description: For the next 10 seconds you have a 100% crit chance.

    or

    Description: Your next skill will have a 100% crit chance.


    Something I would also like to see would be a legendary trait that allows hunters to move at 30% speed in camoflauge, to increase the skills usefulness in PVE and in PVP.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000035870/signature.png]Silverstein[/charsig]
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  16. #16

    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Turbine will never add a skill that lets you be 100% sure of a Burn Hot/Heartseeker crit from stealth. Having seen people ask for it for years (literally) to no avail I'm pretty confident we won't get to move while Camo'd either.
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  17. #17
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayrolen View Post
    Your post sucks.

    Moving on...

    I'd really like some sort of buff to the Snare and your ideas are good ones. I don't have a lot to say regarding the first 2 as I've never traited all the way down ToF (and can't really imagine doing so) and I never even BOUGHT Fleet Stance. lol.
    You think that's bad... this is much worse.


    The issues I was going to bring up are:

    1) The numeric inferiority of Merciful Shot in terms of resources spent and damage done
    Specifically the lack of pay-off unless it crits. I think that the "Quality of Mercy" trait
    would benefit from being modeled after "Unrelenting"

    2) Fleet stance is weak. The focus cost makes it unusable without the legendary trait and
    the legendary trait is far from legendary.

    3) I agree with the previous notions that Set Snare is pretty neglected, but I would like to
    throw in the idea of making it an AoE hotspot and have it affected by "Combat Traps."
    A general traps review and streamline would not be not be un-welcome

    4) Bright Campfire does not scale and has no practical use past level 40. Having it scale
    or provide an in-combat bonus as part of an "improved" skill would help tremendously.

    5) Heartseeker suffers from similar problems as merciful shot, It is inferior in every way
    and has scaled very poorly since its implementation. It is easily outstripped by non DPS
    class skills like Lightning Storm. At the very least, a cooldown and induction time
    reduction is in order.


    Overall, it is not so much that the class is "non-functioning" its just that there are things that are not clearly thought out and would benefit from a final tweaking and balancing pass.
    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  18. #18
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    there you go Bass, making sense again.

    lets put it in perspective (though i don't think we actually NEED to): remorseless strikes (champion class obviously) has a 4.2 second cooldown, can be spammed incessantly alternated with wild strikes (when traited correctly) and crits bigger than merciful shot OR heartseeker

    champions asked for a nuke and they get a superior nuke immediately. hunters ask for a nuke (isn't nuking our primary role?) and our nukes gets nerfed. (traited merciful shot crit gets lowered from 3x to 2.5x) imo HS is only worth using when 5/5 cool burn traited burn hot is active. but then, all the other skills offer more DPS under the same conditions. so its a wash. and not the college fund raiser car wash. so its back to the hut to fry up some more bacon.
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  19. #19
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    1) Improved Bright Campfire - Gives OOC regen equal to the middle food at your current level. Basically fix the scaling because currently it takes over a minute to just regain the power you used casting the damn thing. Utterly useless.

    2) Advanced Pathfinding - All ports consolidated into a single skill that brings up a drop down of available port locations. The individual skills are still available for anyone who wants to use them.

    3) Merciless Shot - Champions got Remorseless Strike which is pretty insane for ST DPS. Therefore I don't believe it is unreasonable to ask for the crit multiplier on MS to go back to the way it was. This will help us keep up with Champions in ST DPS. Either that or remove the morale requirement so that we have a useful corruption removal. The skill is no longer powerful enough to justify the HP requirement, in fact it kind of sucks now as it is barely better then PS.

    4) True Chain Mez - 30s mez on 30s cd doesn't work for chain mezzing, the mob still wakes up. Make the maxed out a 30s mez on a 25s cd.

    - I don't think we should have an interrupt, that is not our role and isn't really a CC role. Burgs/RK's have the ranged interrupt and Cap/Champ/Grd/Wrd have the melee.

    - I like and agree with QS in IF stance becoming an immediate skill to be used on the run. It fits well with the theme of IF stance and with stances modifying QS.
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  20. #20
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post
    imo HS is only worth using when 5/5 cool burn traited burn hot is active. but then, all the other skills offer more DPS under the same conditions. so its a wash. and not the college fund raiser car wash. so its back to the hut to fry up some more bacon.
    Even then it isn't worth using. You will get more DPS by not using HS. Other skills are a more efficient use of your time, and power. HS is a joke and is only good to be used as a fear in the Ettenmoors. That is how bad Turbine has messed up this classes skills. Our 2 "biggest" skills are trivialized and nearly pointless.
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  21. #21
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    TBH, I don't think the problem w/ HS is the induction or the power cost. The problem is how the damage is calculated. It doesn't scale as well as the others skills, and it shows. If they changed how the damage is calculated, and normed it so that it's current performance was good for SoA (ie, lvl 50) and we saw more punch at the level cap, it'd basically bring it back to it's intent. As we level up, other skills are just better uses of time/power.

    Just hover over the tooltip.
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  22. #22

    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    1) Improved campfire would be a definite improvemnet if it gave an in combat bonus for regen.

    2) Leave Merciful Shot the way it is but give us another remove buff skill for just that, do not care about the damage.

    3) Would love to see a a skill we click on and all our travel ports are there instead of on 1 whole skill bar. Actually would also like to have an option to remember more than one campfire set while we are at it. It is not like we forget where they are at. If Turbine wants me to be a taxi so be it.

    4) In Fleet stance QS would be nice to add while moving and rain of arrows/thorns. This if it hit you could root stop and fire other skills.

    5) Snare trap make it a AOE trap so maybe start with 3 targets that get snared and have a legacy like the one we have now that would increase the number of targets to be snared. Give it a longer cooldown but would be a nice skill.

    6) AOE poison removal
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  23. #23
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    Until Turbine stop treating the mere existence of a hunter as an exploit, I won't hold my breath for more than trivial changes. Imagine champion horns being consumables like crafted hunter traps, or shield spikes being single use. Imagine nearly every mob constantly running out of melee range, and being able to interrupt a long induction melee strike just by moving back a few steps before it completes.

    I'd like it in a distracting shot didn't get interrupted by existing bleed, and only on new damage like fears. I'd like it if mobs didn't automatically path around trees and rocks and any obstacle available to interrupt a shot. I'd like it of instead of a snare which is marginally useful, we could slot that skill with a resuable crafted trap, be it a tripwire, triple trap, lure trap, etc. Something appropriate to our level.

    But mostly I just wish Turbine would stop being embarrassed by our existence, and understand that hunters are their children too, instead of watching them proudly go off, "This is my son, the Champion. Oh him? The hunter? He's... Did you meet my son, the Champion?"
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  24. #24
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Northwoods View Post
    Imagine champion horns being consumables like crafted hunter traps, or shield spikes being single use.
    Champs have one skill horn (that requires 4 fervour to use - imagine needing focus to put down a trap!) and a crafted horn on a 15 (I think) minute cooldown. That's 10 minutes longer than our crafted traps. If the crafted horn were consumable, they'd have to lower the cooldown significantly, but in turn they'd probably nerf the number of targets it affects.
    [COLOR=Silver][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1][COLOR=Red]Ayrolen[/COLOR]-[COLOR=DarkOrange]Anikosi[/COLOR]-[COLOR=Yellow]Anfribur[/COLOR]-[COLOR=Lime]Ametrine[/COLOR]-[COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]Amari[/COLOR]-[COLOR=DarkOrchid]Ayaneth[/COLOR]-[COLOR=Red]Asparagus[/COLOR]-[COLOR=SandyBrown]Anayalos[/COLOR]-[COLOR=Yellow]Alyradal[/COLOR]-[COLOR=Lime]Aloe[/COLOR]-[COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]Asiago[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=Silver][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]-[COLOR=DarkOrchid]Altanoin[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=Silver][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]
    7 Haven Way, Tund Loriel, Falathlorn Homesteads
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  25. #25
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    Re: 3 reasonable changes to the hunter, as seen by a veteran hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Northwoods View Post
    Until Turbine stop treating the mere existence of a hunter as an exploit, I won't hold my breath for more than trivial changes. Imagine champion horns being consumables like crafted hunter traps, or shield spikes being single use.
    Champs have a horn skill and a horn item. Hunters have a trap skill and trap items. Additionally, mobs don't walk all over Champ horns. We blow them then put them back on our belt. There's no narrative reason for them to be consumable. Shield spikes ARE consumable.

    Imagine nearly every mob constantly running out of melee range, and being able to interrupt a long induction melee strike just by moving back a few steps before it completes.
    You don't play a melee class much, do you? Mobs DO constantly run out of melee range. At least you don't have to chase them.

    I'd like it in a distracting shot didn't get interrupted by existing bleed, and only on new damage like fears.
    You mean like every other daze in the game? Yeah, Hunters are SO isolated there.

    I'd like it if mobs didn't automatically path around trees and rocks and any obstacle available to interrupt a shot.
    Hunters are not the only ranged class, BTW. Or do you think Minstrels, LMs, Wardens, RKs don't ever have mobs run around things? Also, a lot of people would actually PREFER that mobs be more intelligent and use their surroundings to their advantage. But I can see how Hunters would want them to be dumb and run straight into your arrows so you could keep up.

    I'd like it of instead of a snare which is marginally useful, we could slot that skill with a resuable crafted trap, be it a tripwire, triple trap, lure trap, etc. Something appropriate to our level.
    Marginally useful? You should practice kiting more.

    But mostly I just wish Turbine would stop being embarrassed by our existence, and understand that hunters are their children too, instead of watching them proudly go off, "This is my son, the Champion. Oh him? The hunter? He's... Did you meet my son, the Champion?"
    And I just wish you would stop pretending that Turbine arbitrarily prefers certain classes that they've created over others. It's really pathetic.
    Last edited by gildhur; Mar 18 2010 at 10:04 AM.
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