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  1. #26
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    More > less. Try reading next time.
    Game development is not a democracy. If opinions are polled they are considered individually. If an argument makes sense, it is considered. This raid is proof of this. If majority opinion trumped minority opinion, the raid would have received many more changes: not those related solely to the Lt.

    Even in the Lieutenant, the argument of more melee friendly was considered a good idea - and so it was embraced. It happened to be majority opinion. There is another majority opinion: yellow eye + fear = bad. Well, that didn't go away: further emphasizing my position of individual consideration.

    Try to think non-narrowly next time.

    So if respawn doesn't bother you, because it never affects you, but it does bother a large number of other people, because it (a) directly affects them, and/or (b) discourages participation/reduces foot traffic, wouldn't it make sense to change it to extract the maximum amount of utility?

    Unless you think removing respawns will make your raid group perform worse due to a newfound ability to slack off? I mean, you're always free to run a stopwatch and /disband the raid after 3 hours...
    I look past the inconveniences. I look at the intangible benefits that this setup produces. Agree, disagree, whatever: there are certain intangibles that benefit the raiding populace by instilling forced respawn.
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  2. #27
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    When this raid drives all the raiders away, and developers spend less time on raiding, I'll give another rep point to John Anthony. He called it anyway, even if his reason was slightly off. Accessible raid ---> More raiders ---> More dev time on raids. Are you this obtuse?
    Last edited by cwswim03; Mar 22 2010 at 10:32 AM.
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  3. #28
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    You're a fool. End of message. When this raid drives all the raiders away, and developers spend less time on raiding, I'll give another rep point to John Anthony. He called it anyway, even if his reason was slightly off. Accessible raid ---> More raiders ---> More dev time on raids. Are you this obtuse?
    +rep for substituting insults for good argument.

    Oh wait....

    There is nothing inaccessible about BG. There's a time limit. That doesn't mean it's inaccessible.
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  4. #29
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    I look past the inconveniences. I look at the intangible benefits that this setup produces. Agree, disagree, whatever: there are certain intangibles that benefit the raiding populace by instilling forced respawn.
    Do those intangible benefits outweigh the very tangible drawbacks? How many people/groups are growing ever more frustrated and giving up on this raid because of this arbitrary cap on number-of-boss-attempts-before-reset (in addition to all the other BG issues)?

    I won't argue that for your group, and likely others, the added pressure of being on the clock might motivate you to perform better. If that's true, then it stands to reason that there are also other groups who would perform worse under the added pressure. There are groups that might have the time and motivation to throw themselves at a boss for 3 hours straight but right now that option is denied to them given a 3 hour respawn and 1 hr trash clear time.

    My point is that, if the auto-respawn is removed, YOU could easily provide that motivation to your group by threatening to disband your raid in [arbitrary time limit] - and that change would have the added utility of freeing up other groups to take their time at it, go according to their own pace. Not have their progress wiped out because they're learning or re-learning a strat. Or any number of other time-wasters that have zero to do with player ability: link-death, crippling lag, cooldowns, AFKs, swapping characters, bugged fights, resets, etc etc. Things that are completely out of player control, which would have delayed the group but otherwise not contributed to failure in any other raid, now push people ever towards the reset point and the ultimate decision: push forward through all that trash all over again, or break for the night and try again later?

    You seem to be looking at it as some sort of evolutionary process: Respawns will make you a better player and/or filter out the weak. It's filtering them out all right: straight out of the raid, straight out of the game.

    Dedication gate, indeed.
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  5. #30
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    There is nothing inaccessible about BG. There's a time limit. That doesn't mean it's inaccessible.
    Again, only thinking of yourself. Sad.
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  6. #31

    Re: More Bugs Please

    Because we all love to express our opinion and assume that majority shares the same view, here is my 2 cents:

    While bugs are annoying, this is not what drives most of the players away from BG. Devs are humans too and they mistakes like you and me. Since Turbine doesn't have the resources to test every single scenario, I am not surprised to find bugs here and there. That being said, they should try to fix them when they are indentified. I would say 3-4 days is more than enough time to verify these bugs and hot patch them. Problem is that Turbine waits till the next book update to fix them.

    I don't think the respawn timer is as a big issue as we make it out to be. Sure it has huge impact on a small percentage of us who play this game only to raid. Most casual players can't afford more than 4 hours of nonstop raiding. They are only there to extend the length of new content. I remember when Rampage killed the Watcher 2.0 on the opening day after 16 hours of nonstop attempts. This is exactly what Turbine is trying to prevent.

    With SH radiance gating is not a big issue any more. IMO poor loot is the biggest factor for low foot traffic. I'm not going to try to defend this statement. If you think of otherwise, just think of SG.

  7. #32
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    More > less. Try reading next time.
    Ah, the good ol' tyranny of the majority. Good times.

    Last edited by gildhur; Mar 15 2010 at 04:32 PM.
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  8. #33

    Re: More Bugs Please

    Yeah I would say that respawns are devastating for my raid group (we are casual raiders). Because of those respawns we can usually only try one boss per night. We have had boss 1 on farm for a few weeks but we have only had one shot at boss 2 so far because it takes so long to get through trash and then they respawn after a few attempts. Usually someone has to go before we finish re-clearing trash and I'd rather stab my eyes out then pug that spot...
    Last edited by natethedarkjedi; Mar 15 2010 at 04:23 PM.

  9. #34
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by gildhur View Post
    Ah, the good ol' tyranny of the majority. Good times.
    Ah Gildhur and his +1 in raid threads. Good times.
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  10. #35

    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by rawlingsst7 View Post
    Not have their progress wiped out because they're learning or re-learning a strat. Or any number of other time-wasters that have zero to do with player ability: link-death, crippling lag, cooldowns, AFKs, swapping characters, bugged fights, resets, etc etc. Things that are completely out of player control, which would have delayed the group but otherwise not contributed to failure in any other raid, now push people ever towards the reset point and the ultimate decision: push forward through all that trash all over again, or break for the night and try again later?
    Very well said, though I'd add bad luck with resists to your "etc" since the new book.

    While there is some argument for trash respawns, there's not much argument for the current short timer in BG, especially given the length of the trash and all of the issues in there right now. If Turbine wants to say eight hours or whatever is too long, fine, but three hours is WAY too short.

    Making a raid that's so frustrating with such a serious dedication hurdle is a mistake for the health of raids in Lotro in the future. If people aren't raiding, there are going to be fewer raids in the future.
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  11. #36
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    My time should not be wasted by buggy encounters (Don't forget the time the add walked through the gate and reset the raid on us). The "Group of experienced raiders" on the test server should catch this stuff.
    The fact remains, we have done Phase 1 well over 100 times, including a couple dozen runs in beta; I was there for 95% of them, and it has happened to us exactly once, that I am aware of. It is quite possible it has never happened even once on a test server. No matter how experienced the testers are, they can't report bugs that don't happen to them.

    Perfect world =/= this

  12. #37
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    There is nothing inaccessible about BG. There's a time limit. That doesn't mean it's inaccessible.
    As mentioned before, casual raiders don't have the same quality of time to dedicate toward the completion of the raid as hardcore raiders do. I know Kin and Raid groups that spend over an hour simply finding eligible players in order to even enter the instance.

    Right now, the respawn period is 3 hours (completely arbitrary). By your logic, as long as you reduced the respawn period to that which is synchronized to the average completion time of the best raiding kin in the game, it's perfectly alright. Those who can't complete it within the allotted time are simply "not efficient enough" and must in turn learn the raid better "outside of it". Your counter-argument might be that my example is an extreme, but look at it this way. At which point is a respawn timer justified. Is it 3 hours? Down to 2 hours? Should there be one at all? Many have pointed out that the respawn timer accomplishes literally nothing, and should be omitted, period. Nobody is asking that the content is made easier. Removing the timer does not make the raid easier. People are simply asking for a way to enjoy the raid (that they've proved they can access and clear with relative success) without being driven away by arbitrary mechanics.

  13. #38
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    @Roov: Reminder: arguments > insults.

    Now for an actual argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by rawlingsst7 View Post
    Do those intangible benefits outweigh the very tangible drawbacks? How many people/groups are growing ever more frustrated and giving up on this raid because of this arbitrary cap on number-of-boss-attempts-before-reset (in addition to all the other BG issues)?

    I won't argue that for your group, and likely others, the added pressure of being on the clock might motivate you to perform better. If that's true, then it stands to reason that there are also other groups who would perform worse under the added pressure. There are groups that might have the time and motivation to throw themselves at a boss for 3 hours straight but right now that option is denied to them given a 3 hour respawn and 1 hr trash clear time.

    My point is that, if the auto-respawn is removed, YOU could easily provide that motivation to your group by threatening to disband your raid in [arbitrary time limit] - and that change would have the added utility of freeing up other groups to take their time at it, go according to their own pace. Not have their progress wiped out because they're learning or re-learning a strat. Or any number of other time-wasters that have zero to do with player ability: link-death, crippling lag, cooldowns, AFKs, swapping characters, bugged fights, resets, etc etc. Things that are completely out of player control, which would have delayed the group but otherwise not contributed to failure in any other raid, now push people ever towards the reset point and the ultimate decision: push forward through all that trash all over again, or break for the night and try again later?

    You seem to be looking at it as some sort of evolutionary process: Respawns will make you a better player and/or filter out the weak. It's filtering them out all right: straight out of the raid, straight out of the game.

    Dedication gate, indeed.
    You are correct that I see it as a sort of evolutionary process. It is no secret that I have seen clusters and the radiance gate as a teaching tool. Starting in Moria you had easy instances, and as you gained radiance - moved on to the tougher instances in your quest for Watcher preparation - they became progressively harder. This culminated in the Watcher that took several (though not all) mechanics in the cluster and threw it at you all at once. The groups who beat all 6 instances (no exploits) had the requisite tools (tangible - radiance; intangible - strategy) to deal with the capstone of the cluster.

    We move on to DN. You did not have to beat Watcher to complete DN. However, lessons you learned from the Watcher - namely the importance of corruption management - became paramount in the Blind One fight.

    What I am saying is this: the cluster concept starts you off easy, ramps up, and when you move on to the next tier - assuming you completed the former - assumes you have learned certain requisite skills. This allows the developers to create more complex and challenging encounters. It is the reason, I think, BG is perceived to be as hard as it is. It assumes participants have 'gone to school' with Moria cluster -> Loth cluster and have gained the skills needed; they have grown as players.

    Of course there is a narrow vision in all of this: forcing players to go back to tier 1 and 2 to do tier 3 is beyond ridiculous. That is why the tier 3 cluster lets you go up to 120 rad. But the importance of teaching players is still there. In an effort to make them evolve, to be better players, encounters must scale up as you progress - and they do - and there must be certain motivation to be better players. This is what Durchest's +175% melee damage buff does and the respawn. It says: take the raid seriously, prepare, and execute at a high level. Successful synergy of those three and you can defeat the encounter in hard mode. You make players better that way.

    Now I do not think respawns are filtering out the weak. What is filtering out the weak is a refusal to take raiding seriously, to step up your game, to perform to a high level. The respawn is there, not as punishment, but as motivations, encouragement to do better. When my group got hit with respawn, the next time we went in, I was so focused on making sure it didn't happen again. It didn't. We improved, we progressed, and in most cases, beat the encounter.

    I know not everyone is going to agree with what i said, but that's how I do see it.
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  14. #39
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Arguing with someone who refuses to concede a point is fail. Anyway, time will tell. When the next raid is buggy, incomplete and has even worse loot (assuming it comes out before next year anyway), all I'll have to say is I told you so. It's not looking good either way, skirmishes seem to be the new train of thought.

    You're still only thinking of your raid. Not those raids who take longer to clear trash who maybe have less experience with raiding. This raid brutalizes them to the point where I could see many casual raiders stopping raiding over it. Anyway, I can't argue with someone as intransigent as you anymore. It's a waste of time.
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  15. #40
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    Arguing with someone who refuses to concede a point is fail. Anyway, time will tell. When the next raid is buggy, incomplete and has even worse loot (assuming it comes out before next year anyway), all I'll have to say is I told you so. It's not looking good either way, skirmishes seem to be the new train of thought.

    You're still only thinking of your raid. Not those raids who take longer to clear trash who maybe have less experience with raiding. This raid brutalizes them to the point where I could see many casual raiders stopping raiding over it. Anyway, I can't argue with someone as intransigent as you anymore. It's a waste of time.
    Sorry I don't agree with you. Doesn't make you right.

    All I can comment on is my raids. I'm not at your raid, Joe's raid, Susan's raid. If they're being brutalized it's up for them to step up and say they are. They will make that opinion known and if the devs are looking for opinions, they will consider it. But I will not say they are right or they are wrong. I'm not in their raids. I don't know. The only raid I know about is mine.

    Once again arguments > insults. You're only making yourself look bad.
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  16. #41
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    You're only making yourself look bad.
    And you're making yourself look like an elitist .... It's not a problem for my top tier raiding group, therefore it is not a problem. That is your argument (If you can even consider it one).
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  17. #42
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    And you're making yourself look like an elitist .... It's not a problem for my top tier raiding group, therefore it is not a problem. That is your argument (If you can even consider it one).
    You haven't been reading, huh?

    That's not my argument, no. I've rationalized the respawn. I've reinforced that by bringing in my own personal experience. As I've said before, that's all I can speak on. Doing anything less would be a disservice to the discussion.
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  18. #43
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    Now I do not think respawns are filtering out the weak. What is filtering out the weak is a refusal to take raiding seriously, to step up your game, to perform to a high level. The respawn is there, not as punishment, but as motivations, encouragement to do better. When my group got hit with respawn, the next time we went in, I was so focused on making sure it didn't happen again. It didn't. We improved, we progressed, and in most cases, beat the encounter.

    I know not everyone is going to agree with what i said, but that's how I do see it.
    That may be your opinion of it, but none of us knows precisely "Why" the respawn is there - why it was deliberately coded that way. You believe it was to motivate people to play better; others believe it was to artificially increase the length/learning curve of the raid or delay its inevitable completion. A third reason could be to discourage casual groups and funnel them into skirmishes. Neither of these opinions is any more valid than the others since we have no official word from Turbine as to the original intent of the respawns. But, it's really irrelevant - whatever motivation works for your group, more power to you.

    That said, the "motivation to be better" doesn't fly with me because of all the ways to eat up time inside the raid that have absolutely nothing to do with skill, ability, or motivation. Wipes are one thing, and they're to be expected. But to punish groups who have the nerve to go link-dead, the audacity to crash to desktop... "Whoops, lag-tunnel, 5 seconds of skill lag... what, your tanks died? I hope you're more motivated next time!" That is inappropriate in my mind.

    Ultimately I take issue with respawns because they take away freedom in a way that's not shared by any other multiboss raid: the freedom to take your time. The freedom to wipe a whole bunch of times while learning a boss and not lose your progress. The freedom to take along that particular minstrel who's ISP has a 5% chance of losing connection over the course of a raid. The freedom to keep trying for hard mode.
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  19. #44
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    That's not my argument, no. I've rationalized the respawn. I've reinforced that by bringing in my own personal experience. As I've said before, that's all I can speak on. Doing anything less would be a disservice to the discussion.
    So none of this addresses the reasons for why other raids have problems with the 3 hour respawn? Do I need to break it down? I think I might.

    What is filtering out the weak is a refusal to take raiding seriously, to step up your game, to perform to a high level.
    The weak? You realize you make yourself sound like an elitist here, right? I suppose resists and time constraints that restrict the ability to complete a lock within 3 hours are a consequence of being a player who does not take raiding seriously.
    The respawn is there, not as punishment, but as motivations, encouragement to do better.
    I think you need to take a course in Psychology. A "punishment" is a consequence. A motivation or encouragement would be related to what is called "reinforcement". According to a popular theory, there are two ways to improve bad behavior. One is positive punishment (the presence of a consequence; in this case a respawn) and the other is a negative reinforcement (the lack of a reward). A 3 hour respawn is clearly a punishment. If you want motivation, you tie in rewards to beating a lock within a time frame.
    When my group got hit with respawn, the next time we went in, I was so focused on making sure it didn't happen again. It didn't. We improved, we progressed, and in most cases, beat the encounter.
    You're again assuming that other raids are capable of adjusting at the rate Animus (a raid-focused kinship) does. What might make you take 4-5 wipes to finally adapt to a fight might take another group 5-6 wipes. Now the reason might be due to skill, intellect (things that should obviously be gates to completing a difficult encounter) or it could be due to the random nature of a RPG, a different class make-up, computer/internet problems, or even issues with the game (bugged fight) - NONE of which deal with "motivation" to be successful.

  20. #45
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogmar View Post
    The weak? You realize you make yourself sound like an elitist here, right? I suppose resists and time constraints that restrict the ability to complete a lock within 3 hours are a consequence of being a player who does not take raiding seriously.
    The "weak" is not my language, but someone else's. I simply took their term to explain my point. I would not use the word "weak" but I wanted to be consistent with the discussion.

    I think you need to take a course in Psychology. A "punishment" is a consequence. A motivation or encouragement would be related to what is called "reinforcement". According to a popular theory, there are two ways to improve bad behavior. One is positive punishment (the presence of a consequence; in this case a respawn) and the other is a negative reinforcement (the lack of a reward). A 3 hour respawn is clearly a punishment. If you want motivation, you tie in rewards to beating a lock within a time frame.
    Motivation: win within the three hour window or you get nothing. I'd rather not have nothing. I'd rather have something. Thus I am motivated to victory.

    You're again assuming that other raids are capable of adjusting at the rate Animus (a raid-focused kinship) does. What might make you take 4-5 wipes to finally adapt to a fight might take another group 5-6 wipes. Now the reason might be due to skill, intellect (things that should obviously be gates to completing a difficult encounter) or it could be due to the random nature of a RPG, a different class make-up, computer/internet problems, or even issues with the game (bugged fight) - NONE of which deal with "motivation" to be successful.
    Obviously lock ups, link deads, extended afks due to RL are NOT part of the equation I'm talking about. Remove them. They're unessential.

    Lack of skill, equivalent skill, greater skill, I don't think it matters. if you die 4 or 5 straight times, see no progress, then you need to re-think what you're doing. Going another 4 or 5 times, while it may induce some progress, I do not think it is something that should be done. I'll never do it, personally.
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  21. #46
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    Motivation: win within the three hour window or you get nothing. I'd rather not have nothing. I'd rather have something. Thus I am motivated to victory.
    I think you missed the point here. Regardless of what terminology you want to apply to the respawns; it's classified as a punishment. Defining victory as completing a lock within 3 hours is a false pretense. That might be a victory to you, but all it is is a convention for wanting to avoid a consequence (respawns).

    Obviously lock ups, link deads, extended afks due to RL are NOT part of the equation I'm talking about. Remove them. They're unessential.
    Why aren't they? Why does your attribution to a lack of skill take precedence and more weight in this debate? If you believe that Devs designed the 3 hour locks to exclusively gate efficiency related to skill, then they really are as shortsighted as some of the posters here are arguing.

    Lack of skill, equivalent skill, greater skill, I don't think it matters. if you die 4 or 5 straight times, see no progress, then you need to re-think what you're doing.
    And if you are making progress? Again, you're assuming that because your kinship only takes 4-5 tries to complete a fight, that it is the average amount of tries it takes to complete a fight. Some kins might take 6-7 tries, during each of which they make progress, albeit at a lower rate than what your kinship or what the "average kinship" (as defined by your suggestion that it shouldn't take more than 4-5 tries) requires to complete a fight.

    Going another 4 or 5 times, while it may induce some progress, I do not think it is something that should be done. I'll never do it, personally.
    I'm not even going to elaborate on this. With this statement, you just pointed out why you aren't even considering the situations of other raid groups.

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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post


    Obviously lock ups, link deads, extended afks due to RL are NOT part of the equation I'm talking about. Remove them. They're unessential.
    Again, your elitism shining through. People have lives, emergencies etc. Turbine is putting a limit on the time you spend in there. It has no purpose except for making people play more days. It's a /fail.
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  23. #48
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogmar View Post

    I'm not even going to elaborate on this. With this statement, you just pointed out why you aren't even considering the situations of other raid groups.
    Lul. You just realized this?
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  24. #49
    Join Date
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    Lul. You just realized this?
    No. I just needed to wait for him to make a statement that was so salient, that even he himself might realize it.

  25. #50
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    Re: More Bugs Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogmar View Post
    I think you missed the point here. Regardless of what terminology you want to apply to the respawns; it's classified as a punishment. Defining victory as completing a lock within 3 hours is a false pretense. That might be a victory to you, but all it is is a convention for wanting to avoid a consequence (respawns).
    You classify it punishment. Others do not.

    Why aren't they? Why does your attribution to a lack of skill take precedence and more weight in this debate? If you believe that Devs designed the 3 hour locks to exclusively gate efficiency related to skill, then they really are as shortsighted as some of the posters here are arguing.
    Why? Because they're not common. Personally speaking, when I commit time to a raid, I make sure I'm there for the time block, however long that is. RL stuff happens and they're replaced before the raid occurs. In my experience it's very rare to hold up the raid - mid session - for 30 minutes or whatever because this occurs.

    And if you are making progress? Again, you're assuming that because your kinship only takes 4-5 tries to complete a fight, that it is the average amount of tries it takes to complete a fight. Some kins might take 6-7 tries, during each of which they make progress, albeit at a lower rate than what your kinship or what the "average kinship" (as defined by your suggestion that it shouldn't take more than 4-5 tries) requires to complete a fight.
    If you are? Be proud of your accomplishment. If you want to keep going, re-clear trash; or pick up where you left off the next night. Adapt and move forward.

    I'm not even going to elaborate on this. With this statement, you just pointed out why you aren't even considering the situations of other raid groups.
    I've always maintained that I cannot speak for other raid groups, only my own. I do not disregard them nor put mine on a pedestal. Their feedback is wanted, as is everyone's. I'm just stating my opinion, my own situation. If I commented on their situation I would be doing the discussion a disservice.

    Do I need to say it Roov? Arguments > insults.
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