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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    a town, at least thats what I think it is
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    943

    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    One important factor is that conviction healing can't be resisted, so you're getting the aggro no matter what. No, it's not nearly as much threat as a couple PBs, but it's guaranteed to have threat. Force of personality definitely helps with resists, but PB can still be block/parried/evaded in addition to being resisted. I just don't think the margin of threat is worth it unless all you're doing is spamming PB which actually does go through power pretty fast if you're doing it as much as possible.

    I've gotten my conviction up to 161 with legacies, which usually heals around 181 depending on how much +inc healing people have x6 that's at least 966-1086 points of healing every 3 seconds, plus any crits, which is about on-par with a bolster courage, probably equal or even more threat depending on how much -threat the mini has.
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  2. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Southern CA
    Posts
    4,775

    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD View Post
    Threat bonuses are very welcome in BG, due to threat debuffs and the need to swap aggro.
    For what? See [[Barad Guldur]] page in the Lorebook for information on Durchest and his cleave attack and the (up to) 210% -aggro that he can parcel out. Keeping aggro on Durchest shouldn't be that hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nytshade617 View Post
    +Healing traits are irrelevant if you're grouped with a competent healer.
    True, but then the healer will have to work harder to keep you up compared to a guardian, so... why should they take you instead of a guardian when the guardian would be less work for them? HoTs make us equal (or better than) the higher mitigation (and possibly higher avoidances) that a guardian has. Or, if threat is so important, why not take a champion instead of you for aggro transfers amongst the group (if the guardian isn't using his aggro copy skill or if that's on cooldown). Without our HoTs, there's usually no reason to take a Warden.
    As a level 1 burglar, Bilbo got a pony when he joined the Smaug The Dragon raid. Then he asked for leadership, looted the chest, assigned himself the 1st age Arkenstone and mailed it to an alt (Bilbo's a VIP so can mail from anywhere). They did some PvMP and an Epic Battle, then he apologized and gave the Arkenstone back. He kept the pony.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    5,862

    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by Banaticus View Post
    For what? See [[Barad Guldur]] page in the Lorebook for information on Durchest and his cleave attack and the (up to) 210% -aggro that he can parcel out. Keeping aggro on Durchest shouldn't be that hard.
    Do you know what you're talking about? Have you beaten BG? Do you know the skills the bosses are using? It's pretty clear from your posts that you don't. Better to ask than to claim nonsense.

    Hint: Durchest is not the only boss in BG.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000002f84c/01008/signature.png]Uruviel[/charsig]

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  4. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    3,924

    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by Banaticus View Post
    For what? See [[Barad Guldur]] page in the Lorebook for information on Durchest and his cleave attack and the (up to) 210% -aggro that he can parcel out. Keeping aggro on Durchest shouldn't be that hard.
    It happens sometimes that both tanks get the threat debuff, and then you are in considerable danger of losing aggro to a squishy.

    And swapping aggro on the fire twin is very difficult even with Fist traiting, unless a Champ is helping you with Ebbs, or the Guard specs to work around our class's limitations on snap aggro.

    I have tried it both ways. Today we did Durchest and Twins HM. I guarantee you I threw 10 or 20x as many PBs as I did HoTs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banaticus View Post
    True, but then the healer will have to work harder to keep you up compared to a guardian, so... why should they take you instead of a guardian when the guardian would be less work for them? HoTs make us equal (or better than) the higher mitigation (and possibly higher avoidances) that a guardian has. Or, if threat is so important, why not take a champion instead of you for aggro transfers amongst the group (if the guardian isn't using his aggro copy skill or if that's on cooldown). Without our HoTs, there's usually no reason to take a Warden.
    Most Champs I've met don't especially want to tank if they have a choice between that and shing-shinging. They can do aggro transfers while DPSing. But you are correct, there is no reason to take a Warden to BG over an equally skilled/geared Guardian.

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    5,862

    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD View Post


    Most Champs I've met don't especially want to tank if they have a choice between that and shing-shinging. They can do aggro transfers while DPSing. But you are correct, there is no reason to take a Warden to BG over an equally skilled/geared Guardian.
    I salute your honesty. You can have a green bar.

    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to LagunaD again. Boring
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000002f84c/01008/signature.png]Uruviel[/charsig]

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  6. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    3,924

    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Well, I don't want to start another heated discussion about class balance. So let me clarify.

    For the Gauntlet and Durchest, I don't think Wardens are at much of a disadvantage vs. Guardians.

    HoTs and morale leeches are useful to some extent in the Gauntlet. That somewhat balances the Guardian's greater mitigation. But the Gauntlet is really not hard.

    For Durchest, the threat debuffs solve the problem of swapping aggro to a fair extent. Advantage Guardians on mitigations and being able to recover from death. Advantage Wardens on being able to contribute more to corruption removals. Actually a Guardian + Warden team is pretty good here since the Guardian can use Engage to profit from our ability to build huge amounts of threat.

    For the trash after Durchest all the way to the Lt, really no big advantage either way.

    For the Twins, I think Guards are significantly better due to the aggro swapping required. We need help from other classes to effectively tank here.

    For the Lt, IMO the new version of the fight favors Guardians less than the original version, but they are still somewhat favored thanks to snap aggro, easier power restores, mitigation (doesn't cost power, but HoTs do) and Pledge. Corruption removal, where we usually have an advantage, is kind of a wash here, because Sting's delayed effect makes it more predictable in managing the corruption cycle.

    Anyway, the Watcher is probably the model of the perfect fight for Shield-traiting. You grab aggro on a single target once, when nobody else is hitting it, build aggro through the entire fight, and never give it up or swap to someone else. The target is only DPSed intermittently, giving you plenty of time do defensive buffs, stack HoTs and remove the occasional corruption. Conviction really helps because the rest of the raid is taking damage continuously, but hopefully at a relatively low level. The periodic dashes out of melee range to avoid Terror of the Deep even help you avoid burning through your power too quickly. If the squid is properly debuffed and you keep the corrupts under control, his damage is very manageable.

    There aren't any boss fights in BG that are like that, though. The Lt is the most similar, but 0 ICPR makes any kind of a defensive/HoT rotation impossible.

  7. #32

    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    I cannot speak from a lot of BG experience having only started learning the run but I am getting a feel that outside BG it doesn't matter too much about threat as dps is so high fights don't last long enough to matter. For Wardens that's good and bad news. Good is its easier to win bad is our unique abilities aren't as noticed.

    As far as traits I always raid shield and depending on if I have int or corruption duties as well I normally don't use spear mastery and take the extra threat.

    Also, the fights have gotten much more tactical and quicker that the jodf eob routine is fading. I tend to use defiant challenge much more than ever now a days. It's all about speed runs no one wants to wait for aggro build up.

    Am I wrong?

    Question, in BG while as the front side tank in gauntlet, what should i use to grab mobs. Jodf doesnt work going up stairs and WC can't pull off the mini that they run for. It takes me a few seconds but I eventually get them but would like to keep them outside the perimeter.

    Thanks
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/072060000000c5379/01005/signature.png]Blizzscanner[/charsig]
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  8. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    87

    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cluanar View Post
    I cannot speak from a lot of BG experience having only started learning the run but I am getting a feel that outside BG it doesn't matter too much about threat as dps is so high fights don't last long enough to matter. For Wardens that's good and bad news. Good is its easier to win bad is our unique abilities aren't as noticed.

    As far as traits I always raid shield and depending on if I have int or corruption duties as well I normally don't use spear mastery and take the extra threat.

    Also, the fights have gotten much more tactical and quicker that the jodf eob routine is fading. I tend to use defiant challenge much more than ever now a days. It's all about speed runs no one wants to wait for aggro build up.

    Am I wrong?

    Question, in BG while as the front side tank in gauntlet, what should i use to grab mobs. Jodf doesnt work going up stairs and WC can't pull off the mini that they run for. It takes me a few seconds but I eventually get them but would like to keep them outside the perimeter.

    Thanks
    Since you're usually in combat for the majority of the gauntlet, it's easy to keep Conviction ticking at all times. This gives you a little bit of a threat lead via healing threat. I manage to keep my Uruk with me at the front perimeter simply by hitting it with Wages of Fear followed by a Precise Blow. I've only had an Uruk make it by me two times in all of our BG runs- in both cases, the Uruk evaded both Wages of Fear and Precise Blow. It's simply bad luck if that happens.

    We also run with a healing RK, which never gives me any healing-threat-trouble. That being said, she does live in mortal fear of pulling aggro off of me or letting me die- I guess that's the benefit of being married to your healer and having her sit right next to you during every run.

    I also don't see how Durchest isn't perfect for stacking HoTs to help mitigate damage. We let the threat debuff naturally bounce Durchest between me and the other tank. When Durchest is on the other tank, I remove corruptions and hit with Precise Blow. When Durchest is on me, I heal, steal threat, and cycle in Precise Blow whenever I get the chance- nothing any different than what I did with the Watcher or most other boss mobs in the game. The Twins, on ther other hand...
    Last edited by Matityahu; Mar 25 2010 at 08:50 AM.
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  9. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    138

    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cluanar View Post
    I tend to use defiant challenge much more than ever now a days.
    DC doesn't do a lot in building threat for you though, if your doing speed runs of SG or such and people are pulling agro for whatever reason let em have it and tank everything they dont have - force taunts are a crutch. Cycle through PB on each of the mobs that your tanking will be more effective and satisfying
    Question, in BG while as the front side tank in gauntlet, what should i use to grab mobs. Jodf doesnt work going up stairs and WC can't pull off the mini that they run for.
    like Giladros said, any single target javelin skill and PB will get Uruks under control with ease. There was another thread a short while back where someone was asking why WC wasn't good enough to get agro when fighting the armours at the start of the gauntlet - if your concentrating on single mobs then use direct attacks, all of BG is single mob tanking really (the goblins & wargs during the gauntlet don't count for much)
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000104591/01008/signature.png]Silyth[/charsig]

 

 
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