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  1. #1
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    Talking Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    As confirmed by grally in gaurd forums
    Quote Originally Posted by Graalx2 View Post
    Yes the bug plaguing Percieved Threat was fixed. It no longer matters if you aggro a mob before toggling on Guardian's Threat stance you always have increased threat.
    Now theres a reason to to trait fist!

  2. #2
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Note fail at title, just woke up from nap.. half asleep..... -1 for naptime

  3. #3
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    I'm not convinced, I still think 5 shield is better, but feel free to test and share yoiur results.
    The Usual Suspects, if you know us, you know why.

  4. #4
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by lf2536 View Post
    I'm not convinced, I still think 5 shield is better, but feel free to test and share yoiur results.
    Better for what? There is no law that says we have to trait the same way for everything...

    Threat bonuses are very welcome in BG, due to threat debuffs and the need to swap aggro.

  5. #5
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD View Post
    Better for what? There is no law that says we have to trait the same way for everything...

    Threat bonuses are very welcome in BG, due to threat debuffs and the need to swap aggro.
    for general tanking 5 shield is better, I did the math for the 10% from 2 fist, 10% is hardly noticable in anything outside of a raid. another 10% isn't going to help much either.

    in a raid, then yes, where the fights have actual length to them then yes, 5 fist has it's advantages.
    The Usual Suspects, if you know us, you know why.

  6. #6
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by lf2536 View Post
    for general tanking 5 shield is better, I did the math for the 10% from 2 fist, 10% is hardly noticable in anything outside of a raid. another 10% isn't going to help much either.

    in a raid, then yes, where the fights have actual length to them then yes, 5 fist has it's advantages.
    I think this misses the point.

    Shield traiting is only useful if you are using self-heals heavily. Some fights (e.g. Watcher, Gorothul) are more conducive to that than others (pretty much anything in BG). If you have to fight for aggro on a single target, you will be spamming PB, and in that case Fist traiting is clearly superior.

    The fist line also has our -resist traits, which I think are considerably more important now. The last time we did Twins after the Content-Free Update, the Guard I was tanking with had Challenge, Engage, Fray the Edge and maybe CtD all resist, one right after the other...

  7. #7
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD View Post
    I think this misses the point.

    Shield traiting is only useful if you are using self-heals heavily. Some fights (e.g. Watcher, Gorothul) are more conducive to that than others (pretty much anything in BG). If you have to fight for aggro on a single target, you will be spamming PB, and in that case Fist traiting is clearly superior.

    The fist line also has our -resist traits, which I think are considerably more important now. The last time we did Twins after the Content-Free Update, the Guard I was tanking with had Challenge, Engage, Fray the Edge and maybe CtD all resist, one right after the other...
    math, not me, is proving that 10% more threat is irrelevant in short fights, that's the simple truth.
    The Usual Suspects, if you know us, you know why.

  8. #8
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by lf2536 View Post
    math, not me, is proving that 10% more threat is irrelevant in short fights, that's the simple truth.
    +Healing traits are irrelevant if you're grouped with a competent healer.

    ^ Someone quote this for truth.
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  9. #9
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD View Post
    I think this misses the point.

    Shield traiting is only useful if you are using self-heals heavily. Some fights (e.g. Watcher, Gorothul) are more conducive to that than others (pretty much anything in BG). If you have to fight for aggro on a single target, you will be spamming PB, and in that case Fist traiting is clearly superior.

    Right now, I trait shield, but have been considering the switch to fist. The question that I have been mulling over is; how does the aggro generated from the extra pulses and extra heals to the group with traited conviction compare to the increase threat when traiting fist. Anyone have a clue on this? (Assuming you can keep conviction up fairly consistently.)
    Last edited by batou22; Mar 12 2010 at 09:14 AM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/08207000000062e1b/signature.png]Wildor[/charsig]

  10. #10
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nytshade617 View Post
    +Healing traits are irrelevant if you're grouped with a competent healer.

    ^ Someone quote this for truth.
    Truth, yet traited conviction is very decent especially if you're in a group constantly getting hammered by aoe dots, as in morgaraf.
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  11. #11

    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    I trait both...?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/1321300000003b62c/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    Originally Posted by [B]Graalx2 [/B]-Directed at Wardens!
    You guys!!! There is such a thing as being too efficient.

  12. #12
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by batou22 View Post
    Right now, I trait shield, but have been considering the switch to fist. The question that I have been mulling over is; how does the aggro generated from the extra pulses and extra heals to the group with traited conviction compare to the increase threat when traiting fist. Anyone have a clue on this? (Assuming you can keep conviction up fairly consistently.)
    Well there's no question: traiting fist and using skills like PB will generate much more threat than spamming conviction. But, conviction is actually a huge heal when you have the legacies/trait line and is incredibly helpful at keeping a raid going through aoe dots.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000002f84c/01008/signature.png]Uruviel[/charsig]

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  13. #13

    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    The pulses do generate noticeable threat which can be tested in skirmishes since leeches do not steal from soldiers, which likely means pets in normal group too, but is it more than that 10% (technically 20%) if you went all fist? I don't know, it would take quite some time and a large sample size to try and test that.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/1321300000003b62c/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    Originally Posted by [B]Graalx2 [/B]-Directed at Wardens!
    You guys!!! There is such a thing as being too efficient.

  14. #14
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Would this test work?

    Take a Warden and a Minstrel, have the Warden use one (or maybe two) mastery built Precise Blows. Wait the full 16 seconds after so that all ToT has applied. Have the MIN use SoS (finally, a use!) and count the pulses it takes for aggro to switch. Look through the combat log to see how much healing it was. Repeat for two fist traits (+10% threat) and for fist capstone (+10% perceived). Since Graal has confirmed that the Fist trait set bonuses do not apply to leeches (i.e., DoW and Conviction leech the same threat no matter how you're traited) this should give a rough picture of healing threat.

    My guess is that the +2-4 pulses of Conviction on each member of the fellowship is greater than the +10-20% threat on PB, considering that we can't just spam PB but have to (or should) keep WoS, DoW, and SM up while doing what we can on corruptions while holding aggro.
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  15. #15
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Keep in mind that it's been dev-stated in the past that some mobs care more about healing aggro than others.
    Wyrond -- 65 Warden -- Riddermark (Officer -- Is A Small Fellowship)
    Wyrond -- 65 Warden -- Brandywine (Semi-Retired)
    Numerous alts across three servers

  16. #16

    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    The problem with that test would be the fact that you can't turn off the leech so you'd have to factor in the lost/gain aggro. Using skirmish soldiers would be the best form of testing since with conviction you'd only get the healing aggro and not the leech. But I don't think the pulses would generate enough aggro IMO.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/1321300000003b62c/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    Originally Posted by [B]Graalx2 [/B]-Directed at Wardens!
    You guys!!! There is such a thing as being too efficient.

  17. #17
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Or conduct the test in separate groups of a raid.

  18. #18

    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    That wouldn't completely negate the leech because you'd still be able to steal their perceived threat I'd suspect.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/1321300000003b62c/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    Originally Posted by [B]Graalx2 [/B]-Directed at Wardens!
    You guys!!! There is such a thing as being too efficient.

  19. #19
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by LtDiablo View Post
    That wouldn't completely negate the leech because you'd still be able to steal their perceived threat I'd suspect.
    the perceived element comes into play only once you have gotten the threat over, so you're leaching the exact same amount of threat (i.e. x1 threat*) but mob is "seeing" 10% more, so to the mob it would appear like you leached x1.1 threat, which isn't much of an advantage since it amounts to an additional x0.5 threat over all.

    now we have figured out that PB does x6 threat, and that 10% more from 2 fist means it does x6.6 threat. now if I understand perceived threat correctly then the 10% is added only after the actual threat is generated, in which case we're adding 10% of generated threat, or x0.66 more, for a total of x7.26 threat. now consider that Conviction's threat leach alone counts for x6 threat then I think you'll find that with the added threat from healing a 5 shield Conviction will out threat a single 5 fist PB.

    *threat being threat of single AA
    The Usual Suspects, if you know us, you know why.

  20. #20
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by lf2536 View Post
    the perceived element comes into play only once you have gotten the threat over, so you're leaching the exact same amount of threat (i.e. x1 threat*) but mob is "seeing" 10% more, so to the mob it would appear like you leached x1.1 threat, which isn't much of an advantage since it amounts to an additional x0.5 threat over all.

    now we have figured out that PB does x6 threat, and that 10% more from 2 fist means it does x6.6 threat. now if I understand perceived threat correctly then the 10% is added only after the actual threat is generated, in which case we're adding 10% of generated threat, or x0.66 more, for a total of x7.26 threat. now consider that Conviction's threat leach alone counts for x6 threat then I think you'll find that with the added threat from healing a 5 shield Conviction will out threat a single 5 fist PB.

    *threat being threat of single AA
    Agreed, but it's way faster to spam PB than Conviction.
    Wyrond -- 65 Warden -- Riddermark (Officer -- Is A Small Fellowship)
    Wyrond -- 65 Warden -- Brandywine (Semi-Retired)
    Numerous alts across three servers

  21. #21
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by tanis0 View Post
    Agreed, but it's way faster to spam PB than Conviction.
    you are such a pain in the rear.
    The Usual Suspects, if you know us, you know why.

  22. #22
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by lf2536 View Post
    you are such a pain in the rear.
    I'm glad you appreciate it.
    Wyrond -- 65 Warden -- Riddermark (Officer -- Is A Small Fellowship)
    Wyrond -- 65 Warden -- Brandywine (Semi-Retired)
    Numerous alts across three servers

  23. #23

    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by lf2536 View Post
    the perceived element comes into play only once you have gotten the threat over, so you're leaching the exact same amount of threat (i.e. x1 threat*) but mob is "seeing" 10% more, so to the mob it would appear like you leached x1.1 threat, which isn't much of an advantage since it amounts to an additional x0.5 threat over all.

    now we have figured out that PB does x6 threat, and that 10% more from 2 fist means it does x6.6 threat. now if I understand perceived threat correctly then the 10% is added only after the actual threat is generated, in which case we're adding 10% of generated threat, or x0.66 more, for a total of x7.26 threat. now consider that Conviction's threat leach alone counts for x6 threat then I think you'll find that with the added threat from healing a 5 shield Conviction will out threat a single 5 fist PB.

    *threat being threat of single AA
    Yes this may be the case once determined how much the pulses generate, but like Tanis said PB would be more spammable and stackable where as with conviction you'd get a tick of threat with each pulse of the heal, PB's ToT would have multiple ticks running at once for each pulse of threat +10%. So I think in 1:1 comparison Conviction's heal would win out if all things were equal between the main smack of initial threat/leech, but after multiple applications I would assume PB would pull ahead even if traited 5 shield, again assuming strictly HoT speaking and not counting the drop in threat of the party members losing aggro, because lets be honest here spamming straight PB during a lengthy fight would be silly anyways.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/1321300000003b62c/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    Originally Posted by [B]Graalx2 [/B]-Directed at Wardens!
    You guys!!! There is such a thing as being too efficient.

  24. #24
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    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    let me put it this way, out of a raid setting there is little point in traiting 5 fist + capstone because fights won't last long enough for the added threat to be noticable. also, we've been discussing our 2 biggest threat generators, once you look at gambits like War-cry the bonus from 10% generated and 10% perceived is much, much smaller.

    in a raid with a competent healer then yeah, 5 fist and capstone is probably the way to go, otherwise, the survivablitly and added healing from 5 shield and capstone will win out.
    The Usual Suspects, if you know us, you know why.

  25. #25

    Re: Yes Percieved Threat is broken!

    An important point to conviction is that you not only get the threat from the heals, but the healers DOESN'T get the threat from the heals he would have had to cast. It keeps the healer threat way low in AoE situations.
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