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  1. #76
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by davymaxwell View Post
    It definitely can hit 6.5k+

    Next time we are in there I will have our tanks copy their combat logs.

    I'm sure some times it "only" hits for 4.5k, but the 6k-7k hits also happen for sure.
    That would be useful.

    We did another HM clear of locks 1 and 2, and we were tracking DMA. It was hitting between 4 and 5 k. It never approached 6k, nevermind 7k. Business as usual.
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  2. #77
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    Fixed that for you. The notion of a balanced encounter goes right out the window once you finish Durchest.
    Sorry I thought the ranged bit in the case of BG went w/o saying...and I was referring to raids in general with that statement .
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  3. #78
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Pulled from my combat logs, last add so dread would have been at max -
    Dúrchest wounds you with a devastating melee attack for 4,007 points of Common damage.
    You reflect 47 points of Common damage to Dúrchest.
    You wound Dúrchest with Feral Strikes for 201 points of Westernesse damage.
    You wound Dúrchest with Feral Strikes for 267 points of Westernesse damage.
    Monnarch heals you for 175 points of Morale.
    Dúrchest incapacitated you.
    Dúrchest wounds you with a devastating melee attack for 7,425 points of Common damage.

    Not really sure how I'm supposed to survive that. Typical hits seem to be for ~2-2.5k towards the end of the fight, crits around 4k with the occasional one for 4k-6k.

    There doesn't seem to be any relation between the big hits and cleave's timing. Hits over 5k seem to be relatively rare, I could only find 3 in the 6 weeks of durchest HMs that I logged. Obviously since this is all from log files there's no way of knowing about what debuffs he happened to have at the time.
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  4. #79
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Obviously the damage done by Durchest's melee attacks will depend on debuffs and player spec.

    If your Burglar is keeping traited Disable on him, that's -20% (and this can be stacked by multiple Burglars). If you are capped on melee defense with virtues and scrolls, that's another -15%. Improved Tale of Warding and Radiance/Gloom will also increase or decrease the damage you take by a noticeable amount.

    Of these, the Disable and the Gloom are really the only things that should change over the course of the fight, so it's hard to explain the variation by almost a factor of 2 that some are seeing.

  5. #80
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Another note of importance: are people seeing the 7K+ on a Champ vs Guard vs Ward? I know Champ in glory has crit def (I think) but it Guard and Ward have more IIRC. That might be affecting the numbers too.
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  6. #81
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    Another note of importance: are people seeing the 7K+ on a Champ vs Guard vs Ward? I know Champ in glory has crit def (I think) but it Guard and Ward have more IIRC. That might be affecting the numbers too.
    Critical defense doesn't affect the size of criticals, AFAIK, just the chance for them to happen.

  7. #82
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD View Post
    Critical defense doesn't affect the size of criticals, AFAIK, just the chance for them to happen.
    Hmmm that's true.

    I still wouldn't mind seeing if the 7k hits are happening more to Champs and Guards/Wards are getting the 4-5k.
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  8. #83
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Insan0 View Post
    At least for last night, I did see Kidrik's morale drop once or twice, but nothing to make me worry whether he was going to survive or not. Even during the Twins, the only times I had to ask for focused heal on someone were big hits preceded by burst removal resists, once they were removed everything was stable again. Healing was never a problem.
    You should ask Echa and Handiir to capture the combat log tonight, and look for what hits them harder later. Maybe we do get them, but they're just mitigated by defenses and debuffs, who knows...
    On Warden, 10k morale buffed. The lowest my morale downed to was to 6k from full morale, one time only, never got hit to less than 6k morale. Got hit twice there from the melee attack and Cleave back-to-back so it's around 1.5k-2k+ respectively. Highest value I saw on my combat log was 2900, pity I can't remember if it was melee attack or Cleave.

    Maybe I'm just lucky not getting crit? Who knows. Tanks should stack as high Critical Defence and Melee Defence as high as possible, gear-wise and relic-wise. Did anyone who tank who got hit for higher than 4k-7k had this checked?
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  9. #84
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    Re: BG recommendations

    i got hit on LM for about 2.8k when he would come over to me occasionally todo the silence knockback attack.
    i spose that could have dev'd for much higher.

    there is some weird stuff happening with this encounter i totally believe that.

    first attempt tonight threat was crazy, assistants werent getting debuffs and so tanks ended up both with -90%.
    durchest then went on killing spree.

    2nd attempt could not tell what we did differently and it was stable.

    so perhaps RNG can cause him to get into a dev crit rotation hehe.

    i think if you're being nailed with big hits every attempt, something is amiss in stategy or execution.

    i assume/hope LMs are using traited see all ends with non damaging book legacy so they can keep up crit debuff permanently apart from resists.
    i treat bosses like watcher now in terms of debuff maintenance, they just hit so hard with dread
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  10. #85
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    Hmmm that's true.

    I still wouldn't mind seeing if the 7k hits are happening more to Champs and Guards/Wards are getting the 4-5k.
    I've never seen one OVER 7k like the one shown in that combat log, but we use guard/warden tanks... It does seem to hit a bit harder on the warden which is to be expected...
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  11. #86

    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by wyldcyde View Post
    i got hit on LM for about 2.8k when he would come over to me occasionally todo the silence knockback attack.
    i spose that could have dev'd for much higher.

    there is some weird stuff happening with this encounter i totally believe that.

    first attempt tonight threat was crazy, assistants werent getting debuffs and so tanks ended up both with -90%.
    durchest then went on killing spree.

    2nd attempt could not tell what we did differently and it was stable.

    so perhaps RNG can cause him to get into a dev crit rotation hehe.
    Yea I think we know our tank rotation was down when he threat wiped or threat off transitioned, if your healers or light armor dps threat spikes at the exact wrong moment at this time, things get hoppy real fast.

    It's not that we can't mitigate that situation because I know in the past we have, it's just another level of difficulty that requires hurdling, and if you don't wonk that particular segment of the fight, it goes much easier.


    i think if you're being nailed with big hits every attempt, something is amiss in stategy or execution.

    i assume/hope LMs are using traited see all ends with non damaging book legacy so they can keep up crit debuff permanently apart from resists.
    i treat bosses like watcher now in terms of debuff maintenance, they just hit so hard with dread
    I know I got popped for 3.5k, and surmise that could have gone as high as 4.5, so I agree w/ Mav the 4-5k range makes sense, but if he's constantly popping at 7k plus, there must be some unknown(undisplayed) buf at work. Or someone is completely ignoring the debuf factors already mentioned.

    Anyway aside from that jackup in the first durchest go, and of course our customary experimentation with the glitched warg pull, it was nice smooth 2lock HM run.
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  12. #87
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    Re: BG recommendations

    I've been hit for devestating melee attack for 95,000 or somethign stupid... it was after the group starting wiping so the corruptions were very great in number...

    I dont know i never get time to mouse over every single corruption to make sure they all say the same things... but i swear that either the tooltip on the corruptions is wrong and it does infact increase melee damage OR there is another corruption which looks exactly like the others that causes the increased melee damage.

    The DMA's do exsist I am positive it is link to corruptions even if i cant prove it yet. People get slack on corruption removal during add's and durchest starts stacking them. Dont let this ever happen and you wont see a DMA over 4K again.
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  13. #88
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Laetitia View Post
    I've been hit for devestating melee attack for 95,000 or somethign stupid... it was after the group starting wiping so the corruptions were very great in number...

    I dont know i never get time to mouse over every single corruption to make sure they all say the same things... but i swear that either the tooltip on the corruptions is wrong and it does infact increase melee damage OR there is another corruption which looks exactly like the others that causes the increased melee damage.

    The DMA's do exsist I am positive it is link to corruptions even if i cant prove it yet. People get slack on corruption removal during add's and durchest starts stacking them. Dont let this ever happen and you wont see a DMA over 4K again.
    What you saw there wasn't because of corruptions. As I've stated before we've had our tanks hit for 6k w/ NO corruptions on him. What you saw there is when he gets the "beserk" buff or something to that effect. It happens if someone retreats before he has wiped the whole group or if a hunter DFs. He goes nuts and runs right through the gates after them and he gets this buff that gives +10,000% melee damage IIRC. I have seen him get this while still in the room, but it's always when we're all just wiping by the door to wait for rezzes.
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  14. #89
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Laetitia View Post
    I've been hit for devestating melee attack for 95,000 or somethign stupid... it was after the group starting wiping so the corruptions were very great in number...
    Yeah that's his "anti-exploit" buff kicking in. As long as everyone in the raid is in the room with him he shouldn't get that buff. But you might see it if someone retreats or DFs before the encounter resets.

    I dont know i never get time to mouse over every single corruption to make sure they all say the same things... but i swear that either the tooltip on the corruptions is wrong and it does infact increase melee damage OR there is another corruption which looks exactly like the others that causes the increased melee damage.

    The DMA's do exsist I am positive it is link to corruptions even if i cant prove it yet. People get slack on corruption removal during add's and durchest starts stacking them. Dont let this ever happen and you wont see a DMA over 4K again.
    It's not his corruptions, he gets a 17.5% stacking dmg buff every time one of his adds dies. So DMA's early in the fight will be hitting for a lot less than DMA's later. Then once you get into hard mode you have to deal with Gloom/Dread on top of that as well.

  15. #90
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    Re: BG recommendations

    I can't believe you've never had a devestating melee attack (note, that's how it reads in the combat log, no caps) Mavery (I do believe you've never seen it, I just don't know how that could be as I know I saw many, many, many of them every single run when we were doing the aggro swap method). We changed to the assist method after the patch because it seems to me only a guardian can take that kind of hit at +175% damage (plus gloom) on top of undistributed Cleaves rather than avoiding it by kiting (I'm shocked that people have switched TO the aggro swap after the patch, I just don't see that as viable any more). I am not certain it is a crit attack (rather than just the name of a standard attack, though not capitalized), though that could be. Obviously I haven't seen any since we switched to the assist, since we have the guardian holding his attention full time, so I think the only thing I'm getting hit by is the Cleave. We did have a hunch at one point that it could be triggered by his aggro switching, in which case the assist method was already the better way to do it, but it was still easily survivable with the aggro swap through the first 5 or so adds. I'm not sure if that's the case or not, but now that I think of it, if so, and if you've always used the assist, that could explain why you've never seen it...I'm not sure if we've seen one the past two weeks since switching to the assist, will have to have the guards watch for it!

    The only problem we have with the assist method is we usually get an attempt, sometimes two, where the debuff drops on one of the assistants and starts applying to the guard instead, and we're not sure why. It always happens near the beginning, and you'd think with all the time spent through a full fight, we'd see it happen occasionally much later if it was just to an "unlucky" avoidance of a few cleaves in a row by one of the assists (though if that did happen it would be a million times more annoying I guess lol). Sample size of assist method fights is still small though, so perhaps we'll see it eventually, *shudder*

    ETA: as for size, pretty certain I've seen them top 6k. I don't know if the 6k+ hits were the result of debuffs not being maintained on Durchest or not. Its possible. Obviously the damage goes up as the encounter progresses and his damage buffs and dread start stacking up higher. I don't think the guard saw them quite as high because of the heavy armor factor, and I'd suspect a champ in glory with shield would likewise tend to fare better on those hits than a warden. Now that I think about it, I believe even during the aggro swap fights, the guard seemed to take his biggest hits from the undistributed cleaves, while every time I got rocked it was much more likely to be from the dma. hmm.
    Last edited by tomiathon; Mar 13 2010 at 05:33 PM.

  16. #91
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by tomiathon View Post
    I can't believe you've never had a devestating melee attack (note, that's how it reads in the combat log, no caps) Mavery (I do believe you've never seen it, I just don't know how that could be as I know I saw many, many, many of them every single run when we were doing the aggro swap method). We changed to the assist method after the patch because it seems to me only a guardian can take that kind of hit at +175% damage (plus gloom) on top of undistributed Cleaves rather than avoiding it by kiting (I'm shocked that people have switched TO the aggro swap after the patch, I just don't see that as viable any more). I am not certain it is a crit attack (rather than just the name of a standard attack, though not capitalized), though that could be. Obviously I haven't seen any since we switched to the assist, since we have the guardian holding his attention full time. We did have a hunch at one point that it could be triggered by his aggro switching, in which case the assist method was already the better way to do it, but it was still easily survivable with the aggro swap through the first 5 or so adds. I'm not sure if that's the case or not, but now that I think of it, if so, and if you've always used the assist, that could explain why you've never seen it...I'm not sure if we've seen one the past two weeks since switching to the assist, will have to have the guards watch for it!

    The only problem we have with the assist method is we usually get an attempt, sometimes two, where the debuff drops on one of the assistants and starts applying to the guard instead, and we're not sure why. It always happens near the beginning, and you'd think with all the time spent through a full fight, we'd see it happen occasionally much later if it was just to an "unlucky" avoidance of a few cleaves in a row by one of the assists (though if that did happen it would be a million times more annoying I guess lol). Sample size of assist method fights is still small though, so perhaps we'll see it eventually, *shudder*
    I have never seen a DMA around the 7k range. We did see DMA's last night (thoroughly checked the combat logs) and when it triggered it only did between 4 and 5k (including on the Warden).

    Re: Aggro swap vs Assistant. I do think a hybrid of the two strats is ideal. If you aggro swap, while maintain two assistants, Cleave becomes a non-issue and if the -threat debuff isn't working as you like, things don't go wonky.

    I really don't know what is causing a 7k DMA. I've never seen one that high, and assuming everyone is geared and executing correctly, I do not know how it can happen. :/
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  17. #92
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    I've never seen one that high, and assuming everyone is geared and executing correctly, I do not know how it can happen. :/
    Doesn't change the fact that it happens.
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  18. #93
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that it happens.
    The questions are why and how - the reason we're having this discussion in the first place.
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  19. #94
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Using both aggro-swap and assistant method's in my experience it only seems to happen when aggro switches to the other tank. We use a Guard and a Champ as our tank's when we use the aggro swap strat and a few times when the aggro swapped one of our tanks got a big DMA and a cleave right after which is a 2 shot death before any heals can go out, the cleave happening right after is bad luck but if the attack does happen due to aggro switching then to avoid getting killed by it your just going to have to communicate a little more before the aggro changes. My kin has a RK healing so the easiest way to avoid a death is to throw Exhaltation on whoever is going to take the aggro prior to getting it so that when he gets the aggro and if he gets hit with a DMA at most it should be 3-3.5k and even with an immediate cleave your still looking at half morale for that tank.
    Last edited by Streetpunk08; Mar 13 2010 at 07:21 PM.
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  20. #95
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunaleska View Post
    /signed

    But whats the point? This thread will be ignored just like the hundreds out there. And all we are doing is wasting time. I'm really getting tired of being treated like another number here.

    @Devs (if you exist) Please look into a system like this where there is some kind of a feedback loop to the system. Thanks.
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  21. #96
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    The questions are why and how - the reason we're having this discussion in the first place.
    Does it matter? As I said, you're probably getting hit with them during the 14-28(However many rks you have) seconds in which you have exaltation up.

    They likely only happen after 8-10 adds are dead (when Durchest has ~150%+ damage). Anyway... the only time a boss should hit for 7k is if you did something wrong (missed a distributed attack or an eyeball), otherwise the next normal 3k hit will kill if they're done back to back.

    Durchest is the hardest boss in there from my point of view anyway. The next two can be gray areas due to resists. If there were 0 resists on corruption removals (Which I think there should be), 2+3 would be easier than one.
    Last edited by cwswim03; Mar 14 2010 at 01:48 AM.
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  22. #97
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Nostake View Post
    /signed 1234
    More commenting on what you're quoting but of course you're a number. You're a demographic in their game. If they think they can rake more business by appealing to said group of people, they'll do it. They'd be fools not to. Sucks for you, sucks for me, good for them, good for their intake. They're obviously strapped for people.
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  23. #98
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    Does it matter? As I said, you're probably getting hit with them during the 14-28(However many rks you have) seconds in which you have exaltation up.

    They likely only happen after 8-10 adds are dead (when Durchest has ~150%+ damage). Anyway... the only time a boss should hit for 7k is if you did something wrong (missed a distributed attack or an eyeball), otherwise the next normal 3k hit will kill if they're done back to back.
    Figuring out why and how DMA hits for 7k followed up by a largish Cleave - which is wiping some groups as has been mentioned - is worthy of discussion.
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  24. #99
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    Figuring out why and how DMA hits for 7k followed up by a largish Cleave - which is wiping some groups as has been mentioned - is worthy of discussion.
    I'm gonna guess it's the 175% (or ~150%ish damage).
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  25. #100
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    Re: BG recommendations

    It is possible that "Devastating Melee Attack" doesn't mean a devastating crit. In other words, a DMA comes in "normal", "large" (critical) and "super-size" (dev crit) varieties.

    In that case, groups without LMs maintaining SoP:SAE (or when it resists), and without tanks stacking Melee Critical Defense could see the nastier versions much more often.

    Another possibility is that "Devastating Melee Attack" means either a normal critical or a devastating critical (I can't recall seeing wording in the combat log that would indicate a normal, non-dev crit). In that case, 4-5K is the normal critical, and 6-7K is the dev crit, and again the frequency of the dev crit will be greatly affected by SoP:SAE and Melee Critical Defense ratings.

    Only way to tell for sure would be to note the floating text graphic displayed when it hits, to see if it is shown as a critical or a "devastated".
    Last edited by LagunaD; Mar 14 2010 at 03:27 AM.

 

 
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