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  1. #51
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    I did not say DMA does not happen. I simply said I've never seen it and I'm curious for what triggers it. If one group never sees it, and another group does, that means there is something one group is doing that the other isn't that is causing it.

    I heal this fight often. Staring at green bars. I never seen an example of what is being reported as DMA. Whenever the tank gets a massive hit, we look at the combat log, and it's always Cleave.
    At least for last night, I did see Kidrik's morale drop once or twice, but nothing to make me worry whether he was going to survive or not. Even during the Twins, the only times I had to ask for focused heal on someone were big hits preceded by burst removal resists, once they were removed everything was stable again. Healing was never a problem.
    You should ask Echa and Handiir to capture the combat log tonight, and look for what hits them harder later. Maybe we do get them, but they're just mitigated by defenses and debuffs, who knows...
    .
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  2. #52
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Draugnim View Post
    Whatever.....I should be able to roll through anything with my RK zippity zappity! Why should I have to bring a tank or even worse, a worthless burg...I dps and heal....I have no patience for the inferior lore based classes.

    You know what...just give me Inspired Greatness and I'll do BG myself...yeah...
    I know you're lampooning me, but that's not what I said, nor even what I think.

    An earlier poster said that they prefer the WoW style, where class makeup is defined in more general terms, such as "tank/dps/heals". I completely agree with this stance. To require a class specifically for one skill they provide is far too specific in my opinion. The debuffing requirement should be able to be handled by a couple different classes. Flexibility is key.

    No one's asking for the ability to take 12 RK's in and win. We just want to be able to raid within reason. Requiring an exact class makeup? That's not reasonable. When some well respected members of our kin are continually left out of a raid because "Sorry, we really need a LM instead of a 3rd RK", we start to lose them. Then we have even less choices for the next time.

  3. #53
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    Jan 2009
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    575

    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Draugnim View Post
    How is 1 grd and 2 wrds a balanced group?
    Like my previous post said...


    It's either that, or NO RAID AT ALL, because we did not have anyone else to fill the 12th position.


    So you think it's reasonable that our kin should be denied the ability to raid just because we don't have the 100% needed makeup for the boss? We're merely 91% ready. No raid for us!

  4. #54
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    May 2007
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    433

    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Draugnim View Post
    How is 1 grd and 2 wrds a balanced group?
    How is being a **** adding to the discussion?

    And btw have you ever heard of using a 2nd warden to off-tank adds and/or help w/ corruption removal?!

    Please stop trolling! I don't want this to be about other people. This is about Turbine effing things up! Please save the "lrn2ply" attitude for some other thread where people are complaining about stuff that isn't actually hard and/or broken. This CLEARLY is a real issue that MANY SUCCESSFUL RAIDING KINS/STATIC GROUPS ARE STRUGGLING WITH.

    Thanks for the idea about having the RK switch to healing for the end. I had considered it but hadn't tried it yet. This is probably what we will do on our next attempt. I still think it's BS because you shouldn't have to have 3 healers, but I guess we'll do what we have to do for the time being since Tubine isn't gonna do sh*t about it.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000069a6c/signature.png]Eletheian[/charsig]
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  5. #55

    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Draugnim View Post
    Whatever.....I should be able to roll through anything with my RK zippity zappity! Why should I have to bring a tank or even worse, a worthless burg...I dps and heal....I have no patience for the inferior lore based classes.

    You know what...just give me Inspired Greatness and I'll do BG myself...yeah...
    did someone say zap? i can do plenty of that
    Kraken, Thesungodra

  6. #56
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    Jun 2008
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by davymaxwell View Post
    Thanks for the idea about having the RK switch to healing for the end. I had considered it but hadn't tried it yet. This is probably what we will do on our next attempt. I still think it's BS because you shouldn't have to have 3 healers, but I guess we'll do what we have to do for the time being since Tubine isn't gonna do sh*t about it.
    I dunno, in a fight where the boss is doing almost triple damage by the end, and one person dying means you have to do half of it all over again with massive amounts of dread, I'd say its better to play it safe and stack heals. We have either 1 or 2 RKs for Durchest, and both of them go healing when he gets down to 100k. That's in addition to 2 Minstrels and 2 Captains.
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  7. #57
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    May 2007
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    433

    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by rawlingsst7 View Post
    I dunno, in a fight where the boss is doing almost triple damage by the end, and one person dying means you have to do half of it all over again with massive amounts of dread, I'd say its better to play it safe and stack heals. We have either 1 or 2 RKs for Durchest, and both of them go healing when he gets down to 100k. That's in addition to 2 Minstrels and 2 Captains.
    Well thank you for the advice. At least there are some people out there that can be constructive rather than just degrade you because you are struggling with an encounter! If it's how we've got to do it then that's how we'll do it.

    I still think a slight reduction in the damage of his DMA is in order. 6-7k is just crazy when there's no way to avoid it. Make it 4.5-5.5k and it's still potent but won't be causing a 2-shot unless the tank is under-geared or cleave isn't being distributed, and it could still cause a 3-shot if your healers aren't right no top of things.

    For the time being I guess we'll just be stacking 3-4 healers +2 captains...
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000069a6c/signature.png]Eletheian[/charsig]
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  8. #58
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by davymaxwell View Post
    How is being a **** adding to the discussion
    How about taking your own advice and provide some information on how a 7k DMA triggers?
    Last edited by Magian; Mar 12 2010 at 04:06 PM.
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  9. #59
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    May 2007
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by davymaxwell View Post
    How is being a **** adding to the discussion?

    And btw have you ever heard of using a 2nd warden to off-tank adds and/or help w/ corruption removal?!

    Please stop trolling! I don't want this to be about other people. This is about Turbine effing things up! Please save the "lrn2ply" attitude for some other thread where people are complaining about stuff that isn't actually hard and/or broken. This CLEARLY is a real issue that MANY SUCCESSFUL RAIDING KINS/STATIC GROUPS ARE STRUGGLING WITH.

    Thanks for the idea about having the RK switch to healing for the end. I had considered it but hadn't tried it yet. This is probably what we will do on our next attempt. I still think it's BS because you shouldn't have to have 3 healers, but I guess we'll do what we have to do for the time being since Tubine isn't gonna do sh*t about it.

    oO. It was a serious question. Which you answered amidst your name calling. I apologize if my question was asked poorly. I agree there are definately real issues that have cropped up since the patch. My kin has most defnately also changed our approach some. I just didn't see how having 3 tanks helped. We do this with 2 tanks and it works fine for us. That spot let's us bring a debuffer/dps role in it's place. It also reduces the number of tanks the healers have to focus on. Which of course would definately alleviate a third tank being 2 shotted.
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  10. #60
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    May 2007
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by IGolbezI View Post
    did someone say zap? i can do plenty of that

    Zapping is great!

    What is also great is bringing a balanced set of roles to an encounter. This keeps encounters challenging. (ex. 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 buffers, 2 debuffers, 4 dps).
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  11. #61
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    May 2007
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    433

    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Draugnim View Post
    oO. It was a serious question. Which you answered amidst your name calling. I apologize if my question was asked poorly. I agree there are definately real issues that have cropped up since the patch. My kin has most defnately also changed our approach some. I just didn't see how having 3 tanks helped. We do this with 2 tanks and it works fine for us. That spot let's us bring a debuffer/dps role in it's place. It also reduces the number of tanks the healers have to focus on. Which of course would definately alleviate a third tank being 2 shotted.
    There are only 2 tanks swapping aggro on Durchest, and if you had read the whole thread you would have seen me explain that we HAD NO CHOICE last night. We had 11 and could not get an LM or RK for bursts/debuffs so we took what we had. I don't see how 1 out of 12 in the raid not being IDEAL is not BALANCED.

    PS. The 2nd warden did a hell of a job helping keep corruptions off and also throwing heals w/ conviction, so really having the 2nd warden didn't hurt our group much if at all.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000069a6c/signature.png]Eletheian[/charsig]
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  12. #62
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    How about taking your own advice and provide some information on how a 7k DMA triggers?
    If I knew do you think we'd still be failing HM? No. If I knew do you think I wouldn't be shouting it to the world on these forums? Of course I would be! From what I can see nothing "triggers" it. I'm pretty certain it's just one of his attacks he always has in his arsenal. If I'm wrong and somebody knows otherwise please stop being tight-lipped about it and let people know so we can avoid it or deal w/ it in some way.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000069a6c/signature.png]Eletheian[/charsig]
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  13. #63
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    Aug 2007
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    517

    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by davymaxwell View Post

    The reason the kins that were farming it for a LONG time before are not having trouble now has NOTHING to do w/ having a better strat and EVERYTHING to do w/ having more radiance, and I'm sorry but I would rather kill myself than farm easy mode for weeks on end just to try to get an extra 10-20 rad on every member or at least the tanks just so we can try HM again.

    This sums it up for me. We had Ducharest HM on farm using the kiting method for a few weeks before the patch and have come close but not completed the twins HM (only had a few attempts at it so far). We don't have a lot of rad gear and now they make it harder..... months AFTER the raid centric kinships already have much of the necessary gear.

    It's very frustrating. Right after the patch we wiped twice on Ducharest before we even realized he wasn't slowed, then a third time trying the aggro swap method. We happened to wipe on a couple back to back crits, and the guantlet reset... yay. Time to call it a night without even an EM kill.

    We tried two more times last week trying the delayed tanking method (and failed because for some reason the MT ended up with the debuff instead of me even though I'd been standing if front of him since the get go), then just settled for easy mode. We'll try again tonight, but man, it's become much less fun.

    And I'd like to think we have at least a little bit of skill, we eventually had watcher 2.0 on farm (but once again we were a little slower so at the time only half of us even had 7/6 rad gear making it that much harder).... the randomness is just a little over the top in this one.
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  14. #64
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Draugnim View Post
    Zapping is great!

    What is also great is bringing a balanced set of roles to an encounter. This keeps encounters challenging. (ex. 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 buffers, 2 debuffers, 4 ranged dps).
    Fixed that for you. The notion of a balanced encounter goes right out the window once you finish Durchest.
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  15. #65
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    Re: BG recommendations

    If no one knows how a 7k DMA is triggered following by Cleave can we get detailed information besides 'IT HAPPENED.'

    Things like: debuffs, corruptions, tank positioning, gloom, tank mitigations & radiance.

    You know? Detailed information. I'll have our tanks watch for it tonight too.

    Something is definately wrong when some groups are seeing it and others are not.
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  16. #66
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    If no one knows how a 7k DMA is triggered following by Cleave can we get detailed information besides 'IT HAPPENED.'

    Things like: debuffs, corruptions, tank positioning, gloom, tank mitigations & radiance.

    You know? Detailed information. I'll have our tanks watch for it tonight too.

    Something is definately wrong when some groups are seeing it and others are not.
    I've gotten hit with the same attack. Corruptions don't affect melee damage, thusly are irrelevant. I have 160 radiance. Maybe you always have exalt up when he goes for the attack. Who knows?
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  17. #67
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    Re: BG recommendations

    it is odd.
    i've seen strange things happen. yes we had better class makeup and strat yesterday which helped immensely with getting durchest first attempt, but thats not exactly a suitable sample size to say o well adapt and all is well.

    if our do not falls and ihw+LS hadn't worked yesterday like last week could have been v.nasty.

    i'm of the opinion now to treat each boss like a race... the more time spent in encounter the more chance for things to go pear shaped.
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  18. #68
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Yeah, I have been hit by the same thing.

    A devastating melee attack is a critical hit, isn't it? If so, and you have Sign of Power: See All Ends up continuously and the tanks have Melee Critical Defense runes slotted, it should be very rare. If you are without an LM, or the LM isn't keeping SoP:SAE up, or the debuff gets resisted, it could happen 3-4 times as often.
    Last edited by LagunaD; Mar 12 2010 at 06:07 PM.

  19. #69
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    Re: BG recommendations

    How often do you see it Roov and Laguna? One per run? One every few runs?

    Wyld is right. It's odd. I've healed the fight so many times and every single time the tank took more than 5k damage it has been Cleave.

    edit: To be clear: you've received a 7k DMA? (not a DMA of a lower damage value?)
    Last edited by Magian; Mar 12 2010 at 06:12 PM.
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  20. #70

    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    edit: To be clear: you've received a 7k DMA? (not a DMA of a lower damage value?)
    IIRC the devatstates were about 6,500 common damage on me last week. Assuming attendance is good, I will be tanking him tonight so Ill try to log it and see what all happens.
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  21. #71
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    Jan 2008
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    Re: BG recommendations

    I was hit by durchest for 6700 last night by that on my champ(think I had something around 8900 morale for that fight). I was tank traited and had my shield on,but it was just bad timing having that and that other attack that does around 2200 in pretty close proximity.

    I'm a big fan of the recommendations because as of right now,its a horrible raid,and I dont want to do it but theres nothing else to do besides SG or the Moors. Its sad but DN is more appealing right now,lol.

  22. #72
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    edit: To be clear: you've received a 7k DMA? (not a DMA of a lower damage value?)
    The time I definitely remember seeing it, the DMA was 4-5K and came right before or after a 4-5K Cleave. Both of them landed in quick succession between spammed Minstrel heals, with me around 8-9K morale, and basically two-shotted me.

    My morale bar was almost full, then I was at 4K for a split second, then I was dead. Boom, boom, boom. While I was waiting for a rez I looked in my combat log to see what happened.

  23. #73
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD View Post
    The time I definitely remember seeing it, the DMA was 4-5K and came right before or after a 4-5K Cleave. Both of them landed in quick succession between spammed Minstrel heals, with me around 8-9K morale, and basically two-shotted me.

    My morale bar was almost full, then I was at 4K for a split second, then I was dead. Boom, boom, boom. While I was waiting for a rez I looked in my combat log to see what happened.
    That DMA sounds a lot more reasonable. Cleave (with the assistants) should only hit for around 2.2k (I'm assuming two assistants).

    Any tank can live through it if two assistants are mitigating Cleave.
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  24. #74

    Re: BG recommendations

    .../signed
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  25. #75
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    May 2007
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    That DMA sounds a lot more reasonable. Cleave (with the assistants) should only hit for around 2.2k (I'm assuming two assistants).

    Any tank can live through it if two assistants are mitigating Cleave.
    It definitely can hit 6.5k+

    Next time we are in there I will have our tanks copy their combat logs.

    I'm sure some times it "only" hits for 4.5k, but the 6k-7k hits also happen for sure.
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